Talk:Penn Quarter

Tone
Why does this article sound like it's written by some real estate/development grunt rather than someone who really lives in and is committed to the neighborhood? Can someone put some soul into this and not just talk about shopping/spending options?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.242.54 (talk)


 * "Penn Quarter is home to some of the best restaurants, cultural, and entertainment venues in Washington, D.C."


 * Source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.247.58.28 (talk)


 * I agree. While I am not qualified to be the one to change it, this whole page reads like an advertisement by someone who wholeheartedly by into the generic takeover of this neighborhood rather than an honest depiction of the area.  Other sites refrain from bolstering specific businesses.  This one does the opposite.  Very unprofessional.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.255.197 (talk) 21:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Boundaries
Well, what are they? The original article (without sources) described Penn Quarter as stretching from 15th Street all the way to 3d, somewhere alongside Pennsylvania Avenue. The scope of the thing bounced around a bit whereupon in June 2009 an IP editor described them as 5th to 9th, south of F Street to Pennsylvania, here. This was also unsourced but it described an area that takes in the galleries, many of the restaurants, lies within at least *view* of Pennsylvania Avenue, and has the important virtue of not impinging on big chunks of pre-existing, previously defined neighborhoods and areas like Chinatown and Judiciary Square. More recently a few IP editors have been editing the article to extend "Penn Quarter" north well into Chinatown, reconciling the intrusion by asserting, again without sourcing, that "many consider" Chinatown now simply to be a part of Penn Quarter.

I have been reverting these edits, asking simply that the editors provide sources for edits that literally redefine existing and established Washington DC neighborhoods. (My own efforts to find sources were not successful.) This is standard Wikipedia policy - citing reliable and verifiable sources for edits. Personal knowledge of Wikipedia editors, no matter how strongly held, is not sufficient to support an edit of such scope. I am going to edit the change again, this time not simply undoing it, but instead simply to keep "Penn Quarter" south of Chinatown and also to change the tone to something more suitable to the encyclopedia. Please discuss further edits here before making them. JohnInDC (talk) 11:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I also again removed the unreliably sourced estimate of the residential population and restored the wikilink to PADC, which was inexplicably removed. JohnInDC (talk) 11:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Boundaries redux (continuing from User_talk:JohnInDC)
The problem with finding sourcing is that it really doesn't exist on this topic at least not as articles or definitive definitions. The reality here is that Gallery Place/Chinatown/Penn Quarter are all now really one neighborhood (whose names are often used interchangeable by advertisements, residents, and articles on the neighborhood). This can be evidenced by the Verizon Center which describes itself as being in the "Chinatown/Penn Quarter" neighborhood. http://www.verizoncenter.com/about/coming.shtml

There is ample additional evidence that the definition of PQ goes beyond F St - the most traditional boundaries seem to be 5th St to 10th or even 12th St, and Penn Ave to H St. The Grand Hyatt Hotel located on 10th and H Streets NW, describes itself as being in PQ. http://www.grandwashington.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/index.jsp

As does Clydes (on G and 7th St. NW) http://www.clydes.com/main/RestaurantsDetail.cfm?Restaurant=Clydes_of_Gallery_Place&Section=Main

Urbanspoon lists a number of restaurants as being in Penn Quarter that are on G and H St. http://www.urbanspoon.com/n/7/639/DC/Penn-Quarter-restaurants

The New York Times online describes Zengo (H and 7th St.) as being in the "Downtown, Penn Quarter" area. http://travel.nytimes.com/travel/guides/north-america/united-states/washington-dc/67135/zengo/restaurant-detail.html

Opentable seemingly (based on its choice of included businesses) describes Penn Quarter as being from 5th St to 12 St and Penn Ave to H Street. http://www.opentable.com/opentables.aspx?t=reg&n=1322&m=9&p=2&d=4%2f30%2f2010+7%3a00%3a00+PM

This trend is duplicated again and again - businesses within the Penn Ave - H St, 5th St. - 10th St (and sometimes as far as 12th Street) area describe themselves as being in the PQ area - a quick look on Google (Google Penn Quarter and Restaurant or apartment and you will see this to be the case).

In addition to businesses believing that the PQ neighborhood expands beyond F St (and to at least H St), realtors also appear to agree: http://www.rent.com/rentals/washington-dc/washington-dc-and-vicinity/washington/penn-quarter/ (lists a number of properties that are beyond F St as being in PQ). A quick look on craigslist will reveal that many residents agree with definition.

A very good site that lists businesses and apartments as being part of PQ is PQliving.com which routinely uses a definition more expansive then Penn to F St.

The traditional definition of Penn Quarter - which held PQ was from Penn Ave to F St and 5th St. to 9th St. - was developed pre-1997 before the decline of Chinatown and the rise of what is now referred to as Penn Quarter. At this time, before 1997, Penn Quarter was not really considered a distinct neighborhood. You will almost never find it mentioned in literature of the time or in real estate listings of the time. Chinatown was the predominant name used for the area, or alternatively, "downtown" was used. Following the instillation of the MCI Center (now the Verizon Center) things began to change. Many of the Asian business owners sold their businesses (for instance the long standing China Doll closed, along with many others)and non-Chinese businesses moved. As the "Chinese" nature of the neighborhood began to change, real estate agents began referring to the entire area as Penn Quarter. This was also a result of "Chinatown" being associated (rightly or wrongly) with high crime. The new name allowed for a "new" "fresh" description of the neighborhood. Much like Capital Hill, it expanded to include many of the smaller declining neighborhoods around it. If anything, PQ has replaced Chinatown - but at best the two neighborhoods have merged (as evidenced by the articles listed above).

It is clear that residents - businesses - and real estate agents see PQ as being AT LEAST a neighborhood that goes from Penn Ave. to H Street, and From 5th Street to 10th Street. I would argue that it is expanding northward towards I St and westward towards 12th Street, but at very least I think there is enough evidence to support a definition of PQ as being from Penn Ave to H Street, and 5th St to 10 St.

Thoughts? 68.49.150.115 (talk) 23:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. First, thanks very much for this.  I think we'll get a better article out of the discussion.  Second - I'm going to move this discussion to the article's Talk page so others might see it.  And third, I'll say something about the substance a bit later this evening.  Thanks again for these thoughtful comments.  JohnInDC (talk) 23:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As a general matter I don't think much of realtor descriptions. They're often a bit too eager to make things sound a bit sexier and attractive than they are.  ("Dupont Circle" is a very big place for realtors, for example.)  People nowadays will be more excited to live in "happening Penn Quarter", even on the periphery, than they ever would in "tired old Chinatown".  So real estate characterizations are often more - well, aspirational than descriptive.  For that reason I would wait a good deal of time before assigning them any weight.  And residents, having paid an extra 20% or so in order to live in a new, trendy neighborhood also have what I'd call "unreliable" incentives to redefine things.


 * All that being said, however, for better or for worse, those descriptions do often work their way into common use, and you've offered up examples. I don't have too much problem with 10th and 5th as the E/W boundaries.  Other names have been assigned to those areas in the past (indeed the very link you supplied to Clyde's "in Penn Quarter" is to "Clyde's of Gallery Place") but - here I admit to guessing - largely as a result of Metro's having to call them *something* when they put stops there.  Today "Penn Quarter" is as good as anything else.  Where I am apprehensive, and think we need to tread carefully, is when you or I undertake literally shrink up the boundaries of established, older neighborhoods (like Chinatown) without any proper Wikipedia source for it.  This encyclopedia is not the place for laying out new realities - it always, always, follows someone else's pronouncements.  And other than a few kind of stray sources, right now we really have nothing.  (What would be perfect would be a Washington Post article on the remarkable expansion of the "Penn Quarter" appellation - someone should suggest it to them!)


 * Perhaps there is a middle ground, something like, "The northern boundary of Penn Quarter is not well defined, but it extends as far as H Street, where it abuts or even partially overlaps, Chinatown" (then maybe footnote or otherwise reference the dual location claimed by Verizon Center). We have a reasonable source for the overlap, but at the same time we leave the actual firm boundary vague because 1) we have no source and 2) right now it *is* vague.  Your thoughts?  JohnInDC (talk) 00:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * [Also imported from User_talk:JohnInDC]: Your suggestion seems reasonable and I think a fairly accurate and verifiable description of the boundaries of Penn Quarter. Can you make the appropriate changes to the wiki entry for PQ?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.150.115 (talk)


 * Done. Thanks for hashing this out!  JohnInDC (talk) 12:17, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Edits of Feb 2012
I've pretty much reverted a series of good faith edits by an IP editor, partly for technical reasons (restoring wikilinks to various Metro stations) and partly for more general reasons. The edits were largely unsourced (apparently based on the editor's knowledge as a former employee of the PADC and Penn Quarter Neighborhood Association), and while they do not seem controversial, they suffered from a little bit of puffery ("the cultural and entertainment center of the region") and most critically, added a lot of detail about the history of PADC efforts regarding areas that aren't Penn Quarter - e.g., the Willard, Canadian Embassy, without explaining how those efforts bear upon the subject of the article. (I can't supply that connection because I don't know it.) On the whole they edits seemed to clutter the article rather than clarify it - they'd be much more suited to an article on PADC (which I don't think exists here). JohnInDC (talk) 11:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)