Talk:People's Action Party/Archive 2

PAP Ideologies
Why Meritocracy, Multiculturalism, Asian Values and Keynesian economics cannot be included. Meritocracy, Multiculturalism, Asian Values and Keynesian economics is not my personal opinion. It was stated in wikipedia itself on the ideology section:

Since the early years of the PAP's rule, the idea of survival has been a central theme of Singaporean politics. According to Diane Mauzy and R.S. Milne, most analysts of Singapore have discerned four major "ideologies" of the PAP: pragmatism, meritocracy, multiracialism, and Asian values or communitarianism.

It also state that:

The party economic ideology has always accepted the need for some welfare spending, pragmatic economic interventionism and general Keynesian economic policy. However, free-market policies have been popular since the 1980s as part of the wider implementation of a meritocracy in civil society, and Singapore frequently ranks extremely highly on indices of "economic freedom" published by economically liberal organisations such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thundera m117 (talk • contribs) 11:00, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Founders of the People's Action Party
This Wiki Article should include the fact that the People's Action Party was co-founded by Lim Chin Siong who was also one of the three orginal members that were elected. Lee Kwan Yew then set about to demonize Lim Chin Siong and his supporters as Communists, even though according to the book, Comet in Our Sky, written by two British Scholars, no evidence was ever found that Lim was a communist. Lee Kwan Yew imprisoned Lim Chin Siong without trial for many years, destroying the man's spirit and preventing Lim from competing against Lee in a fair election as leader of the banned break-away opposition party the Barisan Socialis. This shows that Lee is a liar and a bully that does not believe in real democracy.

This wiki article as it stands now is very biased regarding the history of the PAP. The wiki article says that "Following this initial defeat, the PAP decided to team up with the communist faction of Singapore, in the hope that it could attract the votes of working-class Chinese Singaporeans" The timeline on the last statement seems to have a problem, how could the PAP under Lee Kwan Yew after the 1955 election have then decided to team up with the "communist faction of Singapore" when later to be accused of being a communist by Lee Kwan Yew, Lim Chin Siong, had already helped found the PAP in 1954 and was elected in 1955 along with Lee?

Below quotes from: http://infopedia.nl.sg/articles/SIP_1462_2009-02-18.html

"In 1954, Lim, along with his Chinese High senior, Fong Swee Suan, was introduced to Lee Kuan Yew. Despite their ideological differences, the three men knew that they shared one common goal to bring about full independence for Singapore. Together with Lee and others, Lim and Fong became founder members of the PAP on 21 November 1954.

In April 1955, Lim was elected as Assemblyman for the Bukit Timah constituency. Then 22 years old, he was and remained the youngest Assemblyman ever to be elected into office. The following year, Lim and Lee represented the PAP at the London Constitutional Talks, which ended in failure-­ the British declined to grant Singapore an internal self-government. On 7 June 1956, David Marshall, disappointed with the constitutional talks, stepped down as Chief Minister, and was replaced by Lim Yew Hock."

Russ Browne, Vancouver Canada —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.24.195 (talk) 04:18, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Could someone clean up the references more?
I'm not very conversant with singapore politics, so could someone please clean up the reference links more? Before I made my edits, all the references were showing up as hyperlinks inside the body of the text itself.Children of the dragon (talk) 05:38, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Criticisms section?
The PAP's rule over the years has not been without criticism, or controversy, examples include allegations of gerrymandering, operation coldstore, state-controlled media, the trial of JBJ etc. Shouldn't there be a section on this? The page seems very pro-PAP and hardly neutral at all. Songjin (talk) 07:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's a Wikipedia guideline to include critcism within the relevant sections and not have a single criticism section but it's dependant on the article. Of course, whatever is done, the article must strive to be NPOV.IrishStephen (talk) 22:48, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

IP 118.100.130.175's edits
This IP has been inserting nazism related links and CATss that to the article at least 2 times so far, don't know how many times he will be at it. Warning him on his page, see how it goes. Zhanzhao (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Confusing Part
Under the section, Political Development, the first sentence of a paragraph is, "Following this initial defeat, the PAP decided to re-assert ties with the labour faction of Singapore by promising to release the jailed members of the PAP and at the same time getting them to sign a document that they supported Lee Kuan Yew and the PAP, in the hope that it could attract the votes of working-class Chinese Singaporeans." I'm somewhat confused as to what this is trying to say. Why would the PAP re-assert ties with the labour faction by promising to release their own members? Also, is the sentence saying that the PAP was trying to make the jailed members sign the document or was the PAP trying to get the labour faction to sign the document. This needs to be cleared up.Greenbluewhales (talk) 15:26, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

History about PAP ?
The history about PAP does not look like the current PAP. There are great difference between old PAP and new PAP. From the current Wiki entry, I see some parts require citation. If what the school textbook say about PAP history (old PAP) and current PAP is true, then can the textbook be used as reference? Social Studies? Kimberry352 (talk) 14:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think an academic source completely external to Singapore would be more likely to be objective, if such could be found. Presumably the content of school textbooks is controlled by the Ministry of Education, i.e. ultimately PAP. -- Alarics (talk) 15:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Information on party co-founder Lim Chin Siong has been removed
It is very frustrating to see that my writings that I put into this article on the People's Action Party several years ago have been watered down so that information about the true history of the party and Lim Chin Siong have been removed.

All referrences to the Book 'Comet in our Sky - Lim Chin Siong in History' have been removed from this article. It is obvious that agents of the Singapore government/People's Action Party have targeted this article so as to perpetuate false history of how Lee Kuan Yew and the People's Action Party really came to power.

Wikipedia has allowed itself to become the agents of this infamous band of dictators in Singapore that go by the title of the People's Action Party.

Here is a link to the Singapore Democratic Party (the official opposition party) website featuring a review of the book Comet in our Sky written by British Scholars. http://yoursdp.org/index.php/news/singapore/4468-the-truth-behind-the-detentions

R Browne Feb. 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chartliner (talk • contribs) 16:58, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Re: Talk:People's Action Party/Archive 2
 * Mr Russ Browne, please note that Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia and not a battleground for you to pursue your own hidden agenda. So, if your purpose here is not about how to improve it, I'd suggest that you leave before you overstay your welcome. Note also that your comment first posted here 2 years ago on 22 March 2010 hasn't attracted much attention and has been archived, I have no idea why you would want to carry on with flogging a dead horse when it is so bleedingly clear that your viewpoint just won't stand in the face of WP:Verifiability (which is one of our editing guidelines/policies). And seriously, your behaviour is nothing less than what is being described → here ←. If you want us to assume good faith with you, then you have to play your part too... or else there's no middle ground for anyone of us to work on. To which, I shall bid you adieu~! -- Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 17:51, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I see nothing wrong with someone pointing out the blatant omission of key information on one of the founders of the PAP. Personal political beliefs aside, won't the inclusion of said information only work towards the improvement of Wikipedia as an encyclopaedia? It seems to me that you, save, are the one pursuing your own agenda, which seems to be just trying to enlarge your Internet ego. Sigh.119.56.125.177 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:05, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Per WP:Neutral point of view, it's not about what you say but how you say it. And per WP:Competence is required, it's either you get it or you don't, so nuff said already~! -- Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 17:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

This Wikipedia article, in the news
Just a notice that according to a report by the Straits Times, MPs may consider legal action against a specific user due to this edit. Depending on whether things boil up or not, this page may need additional attention. -- benlisquare T•C•E 07:19, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Which sort of additional attention are you suggesting here? Just curious as to Wikipedia policy on this. Thanks. Z10987 (talk) 11:22, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
 * More admin/eyeballs on the page for now at least. The last thing we need here is edit-warring among the more impulsive activists from any faction. Zhanzhao (talk) 11:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
 * It depends on Wikipedia now. Wikipedia can take it from here instead of the MPs in Singapore StandNThrow (talk) 14:49, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Flameshields on warning my fellow wikipedians.... if the chaos during April-May 2011 (when the last election was held) is any indication - like 2 groups of kids fighting while us regulars had to try to maintain order :P Zhanzhao (talk) 00:26, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Political Spectrum of PAP
Creating a discussion here since this is better than debating via the limited wordcount of edit summaries. TheRealSingapore alleges that the website of the PAP states it is a Right-Wing Party. Having went through the website, I do not see any mention of it, but if I missed it somewhere, please out the specific link to me. On the other hand, there is indeed a source for the PAP being Centric, or more specifically Third Way which is noted on the Centrism page to be used interchangably. I checked all the way back on the page's history and its been listed as Third Way since 2009, with a source given for it, so I am reinstating the source as well as updating it. I will look forward to TheRealSingapore to furnish the specific link from the PAP's website if he plans to move the discussion along. Zhanzhao (talk) 11:38, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070917160621/http://www.wp.org.sg:80/news/news_articles/pap_socialistint.htm to http://www.wp.org.sg/news/news_articles/pap_socialistint.htm

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Kellytaft.144 edit of PAP
Your addition of the "Lack of Opposition" subject added useful information that was lacking in the rest of the article. Your citations and links all worked properly and were correct, the grammar and writing looked good, and it was simplified. You could consider adding more examples, but overall, I think the edit is perfect, I did not find anything wrong with it. Magrove (talk) 17:57, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Legal threats and trolling
Please familiarise yourselves with Wikipedia's guidelines and cease using legal threats and edit warring in an attempt to remove information supported by RS. WP is not a mouthpiece for your political party or views, it exists to impart well sourced information while representing all significant viewpoints. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 17:37, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, please look at WP:COI since numerous edit summaries here such as amendments in compliance with orders I have received, In fulfillment of late maternal grandmother Tan Ah Thin's lifetime wish, pledging allegiance to PAP and in compliance with classified Standing Orders, G1-Army are deeply troubling. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 17:48, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

NPOV tag
I tagged the article since it is very one sided in citing the PAP's economic accomplishments, but does little to address the very dire human rights record, clampdowns on political opposition and dissent, etc. Even the lede manages to make allusions to Singapore being a democracy, when that is debatable at best and sugarcoats things by saying "longest ruling party" instead of the more appropriate "ONLY ruling party". The "Lack of meaningful opposition" section is a good start, but seems to attribute the lack of oṕposition to the party's amazing leadership with no mention of political repression. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 18:30, 12 August 2017 (UTC) The worker party also had brief control during the start of self-governance so labeling the pap the only ruling party in Singapore would be untrue unless one added that it was about post indepence singapore Zubin12 (talk) 09:06, 17 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Please cite qualified sources and publications without violating the Defamation Act, failing which, the above claim is less than valid as the article is clearly properly qualified with legitimate and / or official sources. 124.197.78.18 (talk) 05:39, 4 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello unregistered IP originating in Singapore. Wikipedia isn't tied to Singapore law and thus this "defamation act" you cite, but the fact that such an act exists and can be used to stifle well sourced information which the PAP does not deem palatable kind of reinforces my point here and a large reason why Singapore is ranked among the lowest in the world in the Press Freedom Index or why Freedom of the Press (report) describes the country as "not free". The issues which I cite are perfectly valid and very well documented, though since you are accessing the internet from Singapore, you may not have access to the information. If you want properly qualified and legitimate sources (official ones would most likely not qualify as a reliable source by the way) then I've just provided two. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 04:38, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Firstly, since Wikipedia is not tied with Singapore law, there is nothing worth discoursing about here in the name of the PAP, therefore this article ought to be clearly marked for speedy deletion, it is your call. Secondly, your point is your point not mine, and your point is biased therefore not neutral in which case if you are editing this page, your neutrality is also questionable therefore a npov tag is necessary not because of PAP but because of your bias. Thirdly, freedom of press as a human right of the United Nations or human rights watchdogs is secondary as well as subservient to the ruling government, in the case of Singapore we legally sue and we have done this before as this article clearly indicates, in other words, while the Defamation Act may not apply to you if you are posting outside of Singapore, you can rest assured that you are liable for criminal punishment and this too is in accordance with UN as well as Human Rights i.e. I do not apologise that your self professed press freedom is less important than the need of strong institutions, justice that are capable of criminalising you. Lastly, I do not apologise, because information does not translate automatically to fact, in which case your misinformation is your calling not mine. 138.75.187.7 (talk) 06:48, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Struck out comment, as it is a complete violation of WP:LEGAL. Kiteinthewind  Leave a message! 16:26, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Less thinly veiled threats this time then... Again, everything you are saying about criminalising people for not wanting to exclude information perceived as negative by a ruling party, no matter how prevalent and well sourced it is, just illustrates the point that this article is in dire need of a re-write to include such information, possibly using sources found in Human rights in Singapore and maybe ones like these  . Honestly, it isn't very hard to find such sources and many Singapore-related articles could do with better balance, not just this one. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 07:48, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I have already reported 138.75.187.7 to WP:AIV for his/her numerous WP:LEGAL violations. I have, for the time being, stopped reverting the illegal comments out of respect for WP:3RR. Kiteinthewind  Leave a message! 07:51, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for doing that. This is quite interesting: The PAP is notorious for its practice of bringing lawsuits against opposition members to disable them from running for election, enabled by the absence of parliamentary privilege laws. Opposition figures can therefore be sued for defamation upon criticizing the PAP. Litigation is generally pursued until the person is declared bankrupt, whereupon they are disqualified from political candidacy. This practice is a particularly egregious example of the PAP’s “soft” repression, with prominent targets including Worker’s Party leader Joshua Benjamin Jeyaretnam, bankrupted in 2001, and Singapore Democratic Party’s leader Chee Soon Juan, bankrupted in 2011. - that explains the legal threats. Seems like the kind of thing which should be added to the article as well. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 07:54, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll look for multiple sources. Late here in the US, so I'll take it easy tonight. Kiteinthewind  Leave a message! 08:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * A quick, cursory search re the bankruptcy issue turned up the following links from reputable sources:, , , , Kiteinthewind   Leave a message! 08:09, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I added some information from those sources. I also added a sourcing tag, since looking at the sources, there seems to be quite a lot from PAP itself and the Singaporean government. There is also a very heavy reliance on Straits Times sources, a publication which is widely regarded as a government mouthpiece and listed on Potentially unreliable sources. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:38, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Please be aware that both PAP fanatics and opposition supporters have a history of edit warring. My personal observation is that PAP grassroot groups are arguable more organized at Wikipedia editing as opposition supporters are fragmented. Straits Times and its parent group SPH repackage government press releases as articles, but the facts can usually be corroborated with official sources. I would not say it is unreliable, just frustratingly biased and not very insightful. Even academics who were part of the establishment such as Kishore Mahbubani, Donald Low and Cherian George were chided publicly by ministers, or even blacklisted for criticizing certain government policies, there just aren't many experts would go on the record with alternative, non-government sanctioned narratives. Alternative traditional news sources to consider include SCMP which has 2 noteworthy Singaporean journalists (Zuraidah Ibrahim who was part of the establishment and Bhavan Jaipragas who is more critical of the system, the two balance out each other). Reuters, Associated Press and BBC has Singaporean journalists who understand the system well. These are probably more neutral than press releases of left-leaning advocacy groups. 103.60.9.108 (talk) 15:17, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Since you know so much about the issue, I invite you to edit the page and help include it meet the standards of WP:NPOV and WP:RS, which it is currently failing to do as a result of the fanatics you describe. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 17:34, 6 November 2017 (UTC)


 * To make this as productive as possible, I'm providing a list of the current sections below, what I think their issues are and so we can start adding sources and comments under each in order to edit each part. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Political developments
 * The title here is a bit vague, it should probably be renamed to something more appropriate like "History" instead. I'm not really familiar with the history of the party, but from the sources I have seen so far, there seems to be no mention of the more messy and iron-fisted aspects of the party's history which I have repeatedly seen in sources. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Organisation

Ideology
 * This section seems to describe the party's position on its ideology well, but there is a complete absence of outside views. I'm sure there's plenty of academic work with differing opinions on this which can be found with a minimal amount of digging since I'm sure it's considered a very interesting case study in academia. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Leadership

Internet presence
 * I tried using some sources from State-sponsored Internet propaganda which mentions Singapore and the PAP a lot. There's probably more that can be added here. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Lack of meaningful opposition
 * This is the main troubled area of the article in terms of WP:NPOV, though progress has been made. My main issue here is that the "political theories" part does well in describing Singapore's economic development being attributed to the party as a reason, but gives little to no actual political theory, of which I'm sure there is plenty. The position of the party is well represented here, but more could be done to represent other notable POVs.SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * - this source is absolutely fantastic for the "political theory" aspect, to counterbalance the official position. It cites experts in the field of democratisation, like Samuel P. Huntington and does a good job of explaining how a single party state came to be despite the existance of democratic institutions. - this one also has a lot of information, but it's much weightier and I haven't had much time to go through it all.  - here is another very interesting one doing a comparative analysis with South Korea and Taiwan, explaining how single party rule failed in those countries but succeeded in Singapore. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Other/General
 * After this is done, the lede should also be edited accordingly to reflect the rest of the article. Another thing which is notable and worth mentioning in the article is the party's symbol, the Flash and Circle. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Balance, Neutrality and Reliable sourcing, Not Overcompensation
Being a devil's advocate here, and just wanna point out that just like any political page with "enthusiastic" supporters from both sides, trolling and vandalism will come from both sides too. I.e. see [][][][]. Just to get a clear idea of how aggressive it can get, last time there was an admin | La goutte de pluie who was blatantly against PAP, and her escalating behavior got her restricted, desyopped, and eventually banned for her aggressive stance against anything PAP, even though she received a lot of warnings from other wikipedians up to the final fallout. I can't find the exact post, but her argument was that since there were some editors who were PAP sympathizers and carrying out whitewashing on certain articles, she felt justified in going to the other extreme and painting a negative picture, wikipedia policies be damned. Then I was on the receiving end of accusations from | Sgwatcher who was accusing me of being a PAP troll just cos I was reverting some of his questionable posting, even when other editors and admins were trying to point out to him on his talkpage where he went wrong. (PS: He voluntarily outed himself as an ex-opposition politician....)

As contributors, whether editor or admin, our role is to enforce neutrality based on reliable sources. Not slant in either directions. Zhanzhao (talk) 07:41, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, this is all getting very Kafkaesque very quickly. I'm starting to see why these Singapore-related politics articles get little to no attention. Also, considering that this has been a recurring issue for years now, I'm surprised there isn't some sort of task force to deal with this or blanket ban an all IP editors for these pages, especially considering this has driven admins to take questionable actions in the past. I take your point that this happens on "both sides," but given the state of this page and others, I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that one side has considerably more resources than the other and I find it somewhat hard to believe that edit summaries like "amendments in compliance with orders" are the result of mere "sympathizers." Let's just get this article in compliance with policy and not reading like it was written by the Ministry of Truth. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 08:37, 7 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I would assume that both sides have sizeable resources, but while one is more organized, the other is more driven. Granted, this is just from personal experience of dealing with vandals, so may not be truly reflective of the general landscape. No different from edit-wars we see from GOP-Dem supporters or other pages. Forcing a discussion to the talk pages via a semi-block to restrick IPs would be a good start, as I recall an old case of an IP range being accused of being traced to some government group (is it even possible to trace that?) Zhanzhao (talk) 09:04, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's one thing, in my opinion, to overcompensate from an "Anti-PAP" point of view, but quite another to try for neutrality and reliable sourcing, only to be met by IP users who blatantly threatened lawsuits, and have pledged allegiance to the organization in question. SegataSanshiro1, meanwhile, have been met with personal attacks by the same users, having been called a "Latin agent of foreign influence". I'd like to see a Wikipedia editor of good standing who can excuse this kind of behavior as acceptable within the confines of OWN, NPA, NPOV, and LEGAL without using tortuous logic. Kiteinthewind  Leave a message! 18:05, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that I think you're confusing the vandalism and opinionated editors you typically get with an article on something like the US Republican Party with this, where aside from that, you have a very clearly orchestrated official government/party attempt at removing any information deemed "negative" despite sourcing. From some of the edit summaries alone, it's clear that there's not even an attempt to hide COI editing. Either way, it's clear the three of us agree on what constitutes a good article and what Wikipedia's guidelines are, so let's just focus on getting this article up to those standards instead of speculating on the nature of Singapore's 50 cent army. By the way, I quite like "Latin agent of foreign influence" - it makes it makes me feel like a double agent for the Carthaginian empire trying to secure victory in the third Punic war. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 00:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I understand your frustration, guys. I've been on the receiving end of threats for edits too. Though I would like to point out that it would be quite presumptuous to assume that all of this come from government/official means. There ARE some pretty hardcore followers for every side. I.e. Recently I got hit with a threat to report me to the police which I seriously can't tell if its from a hardcore fan, a troll, or someone from the government. Or on the flip side, if I see an edit like this I would not hesitate to remove it due to BLP and lack of sourcing. Does that make me a government-backed whitewasher? Yet for context, the same editor did this as well . For me at least, I just try to be neutral and AFG (unless in the extreme cases) and keep editing/correcting to make sure wikipedia rules are being followed, and not be too emotionally attached. There is always a threat of turning into "moral guardians" and trying to protect an article from "evil forces", because by doing that, we start taking sides, as per what happened to the ex-admin I mentioned above. Hence, focus on neutrality, rules and reliable sources will pprovide a blanket coerage against disruptive edits from both sides. Zhanzhao (talk) 03:32, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

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Not Right Wing or Conservative
You cannot call the People's Action Party a right-wing or conservative because PAP Platform is very centrist or centre-left. PAP supports Universal Health Care, Free Education and Social Security so for me PAP is not a right-wing or a conservative party PAP is a third Way and social democratic party in Asia.