Talk:People's Alliance for Democracy

Queen as one of the main supporter
Isn't it obvious that the Queen is the main supporter of the PAD? That explains why the military doesn't want to interfere with the protest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.175.172.204 (talk) 19:08, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

General Saprang is the leader???
Where is the proof of this? and if he is a leader, why is his name not in the leadership pack? Or at least, what is the activities that make him "appears" to be a leadere? In anycase, I think his name should be deleted from this page. Also the pictures that shows Sondhi talking to Saprang on the front is so bias. It makes people think that the Military and PAD is in bad together which may or may not be true. Same as the alligations that Nor-Por-Kor (with many pictures in this page) is in bed with Thaksin Shinawattra which may or may not be true.

If wikipedia is truely against the bias. The website should monitoring "indirect" communication like this that make people interpretate things as well.

Quote: "The two sides, both armed, clashed. "Gunfire was heard from the yellow side." One person from the anti-PAD side died. People from both sides were injured. Those are the facts. Let's keep the article at that. " from Mr.Patiwat <-- How did you know about the gunfire. Were you there? If you are not, may be we shouldn't put it in. Where is the "proof" that gun fire came from PAD side? Also, did you forget one fact that "Nor-por-kor is the one who "move" towards PAD? isn't this mean something? When you explain the fact, you have to give the whole content not just only content that you like. You are destroying wikipedia if you do such thing, let people decide for what it is.  For example, wouldn't you agree with me that these are facts

- Nor-por-kor move against PAD - Both have armer and weapons - There were gun fire"s" and there is a video that recorded "Nor-por-kor" group or red shirts shooting. (We all have seen this video) - One person die and he is one of the red shirts

I think this is more like the fact which we have proof to back things up.

There are some images that has been deleted for reference reason, which is fine base on website policy. But then, why some images which certainly has been grabbed from pro-thaksin website can be used? You said that we should not use the manager.co.th source because it is bias. What about the other side?

It is a sad truth that this gentelmen is dead. However, I think those pictures with funerals should be deleted too because it is from the bias sources. Once again, nobody knows who killed him. The police is still investigating. I think the fact that we try to make the reader interpretate it as PAD is just not right.

Ponn virulrak - 2:56 Pacific Time

Edits and Reversions by Anerobe
Pointless and repeated reinsertion of links which either already appear in the article text or more properly belong in an External Links section of the wiki pages for those topics. 3rr template placed on user page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThaidleHands (talk • contribs) 04:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Demand for royal intervention
Someone placed a neutrality disputed tag in the Demand for royal intervention section. Please specifically describe why you think this section is not neutral. Patiwat (talk) 12:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Article structure
Wow, all this controversy and hardly any discussion! I'm going to do some editing on the article to try to improve the structure a bit. I don't know anything about the topic, so I won't change the content except to remove NPOV violations that are obvious even to somebody who doesn't know anything. Looie496 (talk) 23:31, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Repeated reversions
What is it about the No-confidence vote section that is biased? They are all statements of fact, backed up by references. And yet this section was constantly reverted:

Amid 4 months in power and public / street protests by the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), Samak Sundaravej, 73, and all 7 cabinet members, on June 27, 2008, survived the no-confidence motion / 3 days censure debate terminated by the Friday voting session. As predicted by opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva, of 442 MPs present, Sundaravej got 280 votes of confidence and 162 votes of no-confidence

Patiwat (talk) 02:35, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Repeated points of contention

 * The PAD called for the resignation of the Samak government. vs. The PAD called for the resignation of the governments of Thaksin Shinawatra and Samak Sundaravej, who the PAD accuses of being a proxy for and defender of Thaksin.
 * The PAD spent all of 2005-2006 calling for the resignation of the Thaksin government. In a paragraph dealing with the PAD's ideology, this point should not be ignored.
 * ...the inability of rural, uneducated voters to elect a favorable Parliament due to easy vote-buying.
 * This is POV and not fact. An opposite POV would be that they are voting for parties that the PAD is against because those policies are better for them.
 * the government is disloyal to the monarchy. vs. has claimed that its enemies are disloyal to the monarchy.
 * The former is POV, the latter is fact. Facts belong in this article, not one-sided POV.
 * It has openly called for the palace, the military, and Thailand's traditional elite to take a greater role in politics.
 * This is a fact, with sources. I don't see why you're repeatedly deleting it.
 * appeared in full uniform at PAD protests claiming Prem’s consent and urging his fellow soldiers to follow suit.
 * This is a fact, with sources. I don't see why you're repeatedly changing it.

Wikipedia should be logical in acceptance of articles. PAD (People Against Democracy). Please define democracy - Government by the people for the people - One man / women One Vote. The PAD wants to appoint a "democratic" government. They are proxy to the military and royal family elite. The declaration of needing to appoint a government and removing the rights to vote from the rural area simply means the death of democracy and a return to the feudal ages. The real gripe is that Thaksin's party dare to make changes to break the age old hold on power by the military and move towards true democracy. Wikepedia should be more strict in its article acceptance and use basic logic test. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.157.37 (talk) 07:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Heavens child, BasicallySo, and GoodHands, please refrain from making reversions without discussing these issues, or I request that the article be locked or go into dispute resolution. Patiwat (talk) 05:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Re #2: No. This is fact. Anyone who has lived in rural Thailand, who speaks their language and knows their culture knows this for a fact. Thailand is politically divided (south is anti-thaksin, north/north-east is pro-thaksin) because vote canvassers have been bought by loyalties and business propsals. Thailand is still extremely feudal. There are some. but very few, among the rural poor that really vote out of policyawareness. But an absolute majority don't. Claming otherwise is just plain ignorant. I have seen the patronage system, and vote buying, first hand and know exactly how wide spread it is. There are many articles available on the subject proving this. Google is a good tool to use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thaibuzz (talk • contribs) 19:02, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Re #4: No. Some of it's members have. That is not to say PAD has. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thaibuzz (talk • contribs) 19:04, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Article protected for 2 days
Per the notification at WP:ANI, I have fully-protected this article for two days in its current form to prevent further edit-warring and give all parties involved in this dispute an opportunity to resolve their content differences here, as Patiwat has attempted to do above. Protection can be removed, or extended, as necessary, and it might also be useful to remind editors that three reverts are not an entitlement, and a return to disruptive editing once the protection is lifted will result in account sanctions. Finally, the advice on the dispute resolution page might be helpful. EyeSerene talk 09:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The Last Paragraph of the "Police Brutality and Samak Supporters’ Violence" Section Needed to Be Moderated
It is unfair to label the opposition demonstrators of the PAD as Samak supporters. Please use "pro-government demonstrators" (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/09/01/thailand.protests/index.html). Moreover, the paragraph did not mention the use of guns by the PAD members against the opposition demonstrators. The person who was killed is one of the pro-government demonstrators. By concealing guns inside the PAD stronghold, the PAD protesting is no longer peaceful and lawful by any existing law on earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Equality of Man (talk • contribs) 05:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think they should be called "anti-PAD protesters" since they don't necessarily support the government. I'd also just call that entire section "Violence" since nearly every report I've seen so far says that the police response has been restrained, and police brutality can be a fairly subjective thing (just look at the RNC violence).  Patiwat (talk) 06:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Police force had just been ordered that afternoon to strip off all offensive equipment excepts shields. How do you expect them to react to the angry mob with guns and daggers? However, they had called for support from both police and army headquarters. The incident all happened within 20 minuite. Please recheck the incident and give a fair report to the police.Equality of Man (talk) 09:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Will look forward to your edits when the page is unlocked.  Patiwat (talk) 07:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * [[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg|left|75px]] This image, which illustrates "violence," can't be posted as the article is locked. The image is "orphaned" and about to be deleted, so I'm parking it here for the nonce. Pawyilee (talk) 13:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In the photo, the anti-PAD was carrying fighting sword while the PAD peoples only had sticks. Also see the photo at http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000104084 to see what kind of weapons anti-PAD carried. I am not aware of any report about concealed gun by PAD and would love to see it. Only news I heard was the discovery of war guns in government house by PAD and it was reported to the police. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 14:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The image is still up, but can't be used outside of articles. Here it is: Image:Art.factions.clash.ap.jpg Patiwat (talk) 03:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The two sides, both armed, clashed. Gunfire was heard from the yellow side.  One person from the anti-PAD side died.  People from both sides were injured.  Those are the facts.  Let's keep the article at that.
 * It's open to conjecture (see this blow by blow report) whether the UDD/DAAD was going to set up camp at Makkawan Bridge (after all, they had a truck with tents) to taunt the PAD and block them off, or whether they were going to attack the PAD. Let's leave speculation out of this article.
 * And let's not rely on manager.co.th as a reference here - they can hardly be considered a 3rd party source. There is more than enough national and international press coverage of the events.  Patiwat (talk) 17:11, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link. A nice read. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't we use UDD instead? 58.147.46.115 (talk) 11:53, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Ideology
The PAD is a political movement, and this article should have a section on ideology. Some aspects of PAD ideology be included, besides that which is already mentioned:

From Newsweek:

"He (Sondhi) favors limits on foreign investment, opposes privatization of utilities and warns, "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand."

Newsweek also says that the supporters of the PAD are:

"civil servants threatened by his (Thaksin's) efforts to trim bureaucracy, trade unions representing industries facing privatization, an urban middle class that resents rural development initiatives and traditional Buddhist groups that fear wholesale Westernization of Thai culture."

On political ideology, Sondhi is very clear. From Time

"It's taken for granted in the West that democracy is the best system,"

and again from Newsweek

"Representative democracy is not suitable for Thailand."

When the article is unlocked (it feels as if more than 2 days has passed) these 3rd party notes on PAD ideology should be included in the article. - Patiwat (talk) 03:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added 2 subsections: one for political ideology and another for economic ideology. When necessary, I've contrasted the ideologies of the PAD with the TRT/PPP. Patiwat (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've also added a 3rd subsection on Nationalism. I know that nationalism theoretically falls under politics, but the flavor of nationalism advocated by the PAD can be understood independently of their political views. Patiwat (talk) 00:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * One other suggestion: a key part of the PAD's ideology is the role of the King. The PAD favors a non-traditional interpretation about the role of the monarchy: the monarch's discretion in appointing civil servants (without royal firing, royally-appointed civil servant can refuse to leave position), the role of the monarch vs. the role of the government in making military policy and appointments (it supports zero government role, everything goes direct to King), the role of the monarch in political affairs (King asked to make regular interventions).
 * This is not an untouchable topic - the PAD regularly makes it suggestions loud and clear on stage, print, and TV, and since the 2006 crisis, there is much more public discussion about the role and future of the monarchy (mostly by western academics). Patiwat (talk) 03:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

"Ownership" of Preah Vihear Temple
Some edits have contributed "It was also opposed to the Samak government's decision to eliminate Thailand's partial ownership of the Preah Vihear Temple and support the Cambodian government's sole application for the listing of Preah Vihear Temple as a World Heritage site. Anything claiming Thai ownership (even partial ownership) of Preah Vihear is POV, as the issue is very controversial.  Let's keep it to the facts: "It was also opposed to the Samak government's decision to support the Cambodian government in applying for the listing of Preah Vihear as a World Heritage site." Patiwat (talk) 23:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

What is "sufficient context" for the 2008 crisis?
There is an "insufficient context" tag in the 2008 crisis section. What would have to be added to that section to provide sufficient context? Patiwat (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The way the subsection was added, and still remains, it seemed like most of the info was lifted from news articles from 30 August and didn't properly weave in with the rest of the article. I think a re-write would be proper. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Page protection renewed (semi)
Given the continuing vandalism on this article, I have extended its protection for one month, but reduced the level to semi-protected. New and unregistered users are no longer able to edit the article, although making suggestions on this talk page is still possible (and indeed strongly encouraged). Other editors are unaffected. Regards, EyeSerene talk 10:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Controversy
As Sondhi is the owner of Manager Group, News releases on the newspaper is on PAD side. A lot of media(s) also support them as a result from conflict between Mr. Thaksin and Media(s). For an example, PAD dress in yellow and Anti-PAD dress in red. Yellow represents Thai king while red represents country. PAD, therefore, dress in yellow or tie yellow collar while Anti-PAD dress in red or tie red collar.

In subject 'Violence' in this topic show picture who dressed in red got beaten by who dressed in yellow. However, the description of the picture seem to be wrong. Maybe the subject writer also a victim of disinformation tactics.

In addtion, unarmed is false claim. While polices try to dissolve PAD from the area, they found swords, dirks, knives, clubs, maces and golf drivers. Polices are also found drugs (Kratom's leaf), guns and bullets in the area.

In parliament building has some automatic rifles for soldiers that patrol on the area. Some were found by PAD and gave back to government. However, some are missing.

The incident was broadcasting on some channel which are not supporting PAD. For the channel supporting PAD, they avoid the screen by switch to commercial or somethings.

For 'One person of unknown political affiliation was killed', Thai media(s), on PAD side, are attempt to cover things up. They are prefer to release only facts that benefit PAD.

Excuse me, apart from too many grammatical errors above, I do not agree with the above comment. PAD was protesting peacefully for three months without a serious situation, until armed UDD or red No Po Ko moved from Sanam Luang at about 2am to attack us. Media are not bribed as happened during Thaksin's term as well as photos of UDD backed by PPP politiians were taken. I was also at the protest site that night. More facts are in People's Alliance for Democracy's Website www.antithaksin.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.120.52.199 (talk) 03:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

One person of unknown political affiliation
One who got killed is Anti-PAD. His name is Narongsak Kobthaisong (ณรงศักดิ์ กอบไธสง). Since media(s) neglect dead of Anti-PAD supporter. People on the side getting more and more furious on media(s) and PAD. In addition, over promoting injured on PAD supporter and blaming Anti-PAD for using violence, is like throw fuel into a flame.

Naronsak's funeral was hold at Sameinnaree temple by Anti-PAD.

As his funeral is taboo to be on Thai newspapers and media(s), his picture can only be found in Anti-PAD website such as ClubThaksin.com.

Since PADs are hyper-nationalists, many Thai(s), as well as foreigner, starting to recognize PAD as fascists. They are controlling media(s) and presenting only facts that would benefit them. In addition, they are against capitalism. They are not welcome foreign investors. Claiming foreign taking advantage of Thai. These remind many of what Nazi has done in World War.

For those who see PAD as fascist are Asia Sentinel, Thai Jedi, Club Thaksin, KonThai.Org, Taxi Radio Station FM 92.75 MHz and so on.

Excuse me again, apart from too many grammatical errors, you also show some confusions and contradictory statements to your topic.

I do not agree with the above comment. PAD was protesting peacefully for three months without a serious situation, until armed UDD or red No Po Ko moved from Sanam Luang at about 2am to attack us.

Was it not UDD, red No Po Ko, who raided the Privy Council house in 2006 and showed the style of fierce attack by violenct Thaksin's supporters? Was it not UDD, red No Po Ko, led by Kwanchai Praipana one of PPP member under Samak who viciously attacked PAD in Udornthani?

Media are not bribed as happened during Thaksin's term as well as photos do not lie. If the police under the Thaksin's proxy has not taken side, and keep peace, then, PAD would not have to defend themselves by makeshift sticks and helmets. More facts are in People's Alliance for Democracy's Website www.antithaksin.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.120.52.199 (talk) 03:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

PAD supporter's Sexual Activities and Drug trafficking in Government House
Rumor spreads everywhere in Thailand that PAD supporters (and/or leaders) having sex (and/or group sex) in Government house. Journalist found many used condoms in the area. In addition, PAD supporters has done many outlaw things in the house. However, Sri Wi Chai Warriors forbid photographing. Some journalists were threatening and some were sexual abused. Khaosod's journalist was, by chance, able to take a photo of equipments use to intake drug called ICE (pure Methamphetamine) in the area (http://www.matichon.co.th/khaosod/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRJeU1UUTJORFEwTXc9PQ==). ICE is widely used in celebrity for enhance pleasure while having sex. In Thailand, Methamphetamine in less purity form is called "Mad Drug" (Yaa Baa or ยาบ้า). "Yaa Baa" is widely used among workers to maintain alertness, focus, motivation, and mental clarity for extended periods of time, and for recreational purposes.

Later, Khaosod's journalist were threaten by Sri Wi Chai warriors and the incident was report by Prachatouch journalist (http://www.prachatouch.com/content.php?id=9644). Thai Rath's journalist questions PAD leaders for letting their men to use press room for sexual activities. As PAD supporters, somehow lost mind enough to, well..., masturbate in front of journalist. The newspaper also raise question about toilet and hygiene because some supporters shitting (sorry, don't know polite word of these verb) outdoor around the house (http://www.thairath.co.th/news.php?section=politics&content=104340). Currently, due to low hygiene, Infectious Skin Diseases are outbreak in the area.

Due to issues, PAD leaders demand changing interviewing place. They want interview to be hold on stage in front of their supporters. However, this makes journalists feel threatening by PAD's people. As, PAD leader say "We can't stop people to get angry", many journalists doubt if they can really ask questions.

As reported on Prachatouch (http://www.prachatouch.com/content.php?id=9644), Khoasod journalist refuses to file complaint to Thai Journalist Association. He feels that the association is going to neglect the case if it's against PAD. In past, Matichon's female journalist file complaint to the association that she was threaten and hit by PAD leaders (http://thaienews.blogspot.com/2008/08/2_28.html#links). However, the complaint was neglect up until now. Her name is Sasinapa Watanawanarat (ศศินภา วัฒนวรรณรัตน์) and PAD Leaders name is Prof. Puvadon Shongprasert (ศาสตราจารย์ ดร.ภูวดล ทรงประเสริฐ) from faculty of Social Sciences Kasetsart University.
 * The Prachatouch newspaper was funded by formerly TRT member, with former Anti-PAD head as advisor. The accuracy of this newspaper should be treated similar to Manager. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 06:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Sri Wi Chai Warriors beat a man and retain him inside the rally
17.36, 17th September 2008 - Channel 7 news reports that Sri Wi Chai Warriors beat a man then retain him inside rally. Victim conditions is unknown. http://www.me.in.th/Live/ http://www.nationsiam.com/content/view/3127/82/

Prostitutes selling services in PAD rally.
After medias start to report both side of PAD, Sri Wi Chai Warriors is pissing. Now they require journalists to be checked before entering the area. About rumors that supporters having sex (or group sex) in rally, it's seem true. The warriors report via Daily News that they found prostitutes entering rally to sell their services. Now they place pictures of prostitutes around at Doors 7-9 on Oratai bridge. Warriors attempt to banned them from entering the area. Not sure if it was advertisement instead. Not only prostitute start selling something in government house's area but many merchants also doing the same. Some of goods might come from thievery.

Excuse me again. Apart from your appalling grammatical errors, your appaling smear campaigns would take really a long way to work. Your statements do not explain anything apart from the wicked advertisement of helpless Thaksin. Just answer WHY and HOW PAD have been able to hold on to their hundreds of thousands of protesters at their peaks continuously for more than four months amidst the soaking showers and alternating humid and hot sunlight. In contrast, how is the UDD, red No Po Ko doing? They are paid to come and never last overnight or through the rain. How about you? See more facts in People's Alliance for Democracy's Website www.antithaksin.com


 * 58.9.177.246's comments did not even mention, let alone advertise, Thaksin. 124.120.52.199's charged comments are completely out of line.  The issue at hand here is the selling of prostitution services in PAD's Government House rally.  Daily News is a major Thai newspaper and is a valid source for factual information.  Below is the relevant section in the article that 58.9.177.246 mentioned:

ติดรูปสาวบริการทางเพศในม็อบ

ที่ทำเนียบรัฐบาล เวลา 18.00 น. ผู้สื่อข่าวรายงานว่า กลุ่มผู้ชุมนุมมีการฟังปราศรัยและกิจกรรมบนเวทีอย่างต่อเนื่อง บางส่วนได้มีการเตะตะกร้อคลายเครียด ด้านการ์ดพันธมิตรฯได้นำสำเนาภาพถ่ายของผู้หญิงคนหนึ่งมาติดไว้ตามประตู 7-9 ใกล้สะพานอรทัย โดยสำเนาดังกล่าวระบุว่าให้ระวังผู้หญิงคนนี้ เพราะเข้ามาขายบริการทางเพศกับคนที่มาชุมนุม นอกจากนี้ยังมีการติดสำเนาภาพถ่าย ระหว่างที่การ์ดพันธมิตรฯตรวจค้น กระเป๋าของผู้หญิงคนนี้ด้วย ซึ่งในภาพปรากฏว่ามีถุงยางอนามัยและหนังสือโป๊อยู่จำนวนหนึ่ง

A rough translation: PAD guards placed photocopied pictures of a woman around gates 7-9 of Government House, near Orathai Bridge. The photocopies alleged that she was a prostitute and was selling services to protesters. She brought her own condoms and pornography. Patiwat (talk) 07:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * ให้ระวัง in this context seems to mean "watch out for," and constitutes a warning, not an advertisement. What I'd like to know is, who ordered up the hailstones that pounded the people against democracy. Pawyilee (talk) 09:22, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Full translation: At Government House at 18:00, a newsreporter reported that the supporters continuously listened to the talk and activity on the stage. Some played takraw to relax. PAD guard placed copies of a photo at Gate 7-9 near Orathai Bridge. The photocopies warned about this woman that came to sell sex to rally participants. There was also copies of photo of PAD guard checking the bag of this woman. In the photo showed condoms and some pornography. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 16:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Just answer WHY and HOW PAD have been able to hold on to their hundreds of thousands of protesters at their peaks continuously for more than four months amidst the soaking showers and alternating humid and hot sunlight. << Is it related to the topic? fact is fact. Since PAD have been able to hold hundreds thousands people, It's correct for selling illegal services (or goods) in the rally?

Which regime PAD promoting? Nazism, Fascism, Socialism, Communism or Democracy?
Without visiting PAD website, already know their supporters are not following the rule of law. As well as manner, too. My folks are actually subscribing ASTV. So I know what their deal is all about, unwillingly. What the PAD suggests as the new political regime is actually a reintroduction of national socialism or known as The Nazi party in 1933-1945.

For young PAD, Try to hit the books before you hit the street if you don't want to be hit like a fool.
 * Envoking Godwin's law: the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. Pawyilee (talk) 12:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Haven't know this law before. How about fascism or national socialism. And everyone with minimum knowledge of history know what they imply. German 1930s, Itally 1930s and Thailand 2008s?

Any regime that does not promote liberty, equality and justice is not democratic and tend to tilt toward fascism.
 * Have you actually look at what the new political system they are proposing? Perhaps you don't know that Hitler came from election too. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 16:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, my house also subscribing ASTV. I watch ASTV almost everyday, unwillingly. Firstly, they proposed "70 percents from selection and 30 percents from elections" and "Only one who hold Bachelor degree or higher can vote in election". Proposed regime keeps changing everyday so I'm not quite sure what is all about. But PAD leaders claiming that it would, somehow, eliminate corrupted politician and eliminated vote selling citizen from the system. PAD claimed that low educated people selling vote's right so low-education people shouldn't have vote's right.
 * You are too attached to method. The current democracy only guarantee equal vote but won't guarantee well being of people. Here they start from result and work on to find the right system to bring in the result. I am not 100% agree with them but I am surprise at those anti-PAD. I see many of them have miserable life under the current system and yet still defending it. For me, my life is fine under current or whatever system they are proposing. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 10:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * People makes their life miserable regardless the group their supporting. I also see many PAD claiming that career promoting has to be based on working experience, Not a performance. Many olders that supporting PAD also asked their descendant to believe them without any reason. They say should believe them as they are older. Claimed it's good morale to do so. I only see new politic as propaganda or something like Microsoft windows (ME or Vista) beta version. Sound good but unable to do what were claimed.
 * Many regimes were developed and obsoleted, maybe we should study history and those regimes first. What PAD proposing, based on my point of view, is just mixing obsoleted regimes together. Such regime are fascism, communism, socialism and aristocracy. '70% selection' is the worse as it's clearly aristocracy. Aristocracy is a regime that was used in ancient Greece (1100 BC). It's not just decades backward system or centuries backward system. It's THREE THOUSAND YEARS backward system. If you saying that you're fine with such system, I respect your point of view. However, doesn't mean others would say so, doesn't means PAD supporters are majority. I suggest we should read more about regimes in wikipedia as well as its history before further discussion on PAD's new politic.Amx002 (talk) 08:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Apart from getting support enough to win an election. Hitler is also
 * Anti capitalism. Claiming that downsizing of Germany causes by capitalism and corrupted democracy.
 * Encourage Germans to install radio in their house and broadcast hate speech toward opposite party, capitalism and Jew, continuously.
 * Hitler attacks democracy by claiming the regime is corrupted by capitalists. The regime is unfair, conspiratorial and hopeless.
 * Hitler also proposes regime that would overcome problems of democratic regime (Known as Nazism). The regime would be fair. Great man with ability will be chosen to do the best for country (Known as Aryan). Leading to massacre of Jews, culmination in the involuntary euthanasia of disabled people and the compulsory sterilization of people with mental deficiencies or illnesses perceived as hereditary (Known as Eugenics). Some ex-fascism countries are still using Eugenics law. Which could be considered liberty violation.

"Nazi publications and speeches included anti-capitalist (especially anti-finance capitalist) rhetoric. Hitler attacked what he called “pluto-democracy,” which he claimed to be a Jewish conspiracy to favor democratic parties in order to keep capitalism intact. The “corporation” was attacked by orthodox Nazis as being the leading instrument of finance capitalism, with the role of Jews emphasized. The National Socialist party described itself as socialist, and, at the time, conservative opponents such as the Industrial Employers Association described it as “totalitarian, terrorist, conspiratorial, and socialist.” source

P.S. I write what Hitler had done and without intention to compare. If you feel it was similar, you're the one who are comparing.

Khun Lerdsuwa, I'm not sure if you're in Thai Wikipedia project. However, I believe that these following 3 pages should be translate properly to Thai in order to enlighten many Thai.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

I saw only Fascism (ลัทธิฟาสซิสต์) page was translated. However, many topics were removed. Only few characteristics were described. For example, "Uniting is power (สามัคคีคือพลัง)" is fascists motto. In addition, enlightenment on PAD's new political system would benefit people in democracy's countries. The new system might have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security, to next century.

Could you provide any help on this? Amx002 (talk) 01:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Political debate on this page should cease. The word "fascist" should not be used to label the PAD until an academic or third-party news source uses that label.  For now, it is sufficient to note, with sources, that the PAD is hyper-nationalist, socialist (but with the support of big business), xenophobic/protectionist, fiercely against representative democracy, wear shirts of a distinctive color, and championed by the military and aristocratic elite.  We should not debate on this page whether these ideological attributes make them fascists or not. Patiwat (talk) 03:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

PAD is already label as proto-fascists by an academic or third-party news source by Asia Sentinel.


 * 03 July 2008, Giles Ji Ungpakorn, Asia Sentinel's journalist wrote
 * "On the other hand, we see the so-called Peoples Alliance for Democracy (PAD), which organized large demonstrations in 2005 and 2006 to oust Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. The movement started as a coalition between Peoples Movement leaders and the right-wing royalist businessman Sonti Limtongkul.


 * This movement was never particularly progressive in its demands, but it has now degenerated into a proto-fascist organization. First they called for the king to sack Thaksin and appoint a new prime minister back in 2006. Then they supported and welcomed the military coup. They supported the idea of appointed senators, rather than elections for the upper house. They backed, and continue to defend, the military's anti-democratic constitution."

But still not label PAD as fascists. However, as they were labeled as proto-fascists. Is it allowed to call them so? Amx002 (talk) 07:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You can only say Ji Ungpakorn called them proto-fascists. He has his idea of politics which is not in agreement with PAD. As Patiwat said, describing PAD that way has not been accepted by academics in general. For the Thai wiki translation, I will probably won't do it. I have limited available time. And there are plenty of other things I wish to do there but never accomplished. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 09:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * At least, read it then. How about giving public a clue of PAD's new-politics?
 * It is definitely belong to the article. I am still writing about the events that happened months ago. This new politics is still changing. If no one else write it, I will come and handle it later. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 11:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure that would be intensive task to perform. I watch ASTV almost everyday, yet still can't see even a direction of new politics. Just saw claimers convincing people that new politic will fix everything inside out. Leaders, themselves, are still not able to describe it. Unavailable of New politics section's reason is the politic is undefinable, I assumed.Amx002 (talk) 08:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Mr. Patiwat, based on Nationalism on Wikipedia pages in Extremism section, it say that
 * "Nationalism is a component of other political ideologies, and in its extreme form, Fascism."

Should we refrain from calling PAD Hyper-Nationalists, too? I felt that Hyper-Nationalists is an indirect way to call fascists. Maybe Nationalists is more far enough? Amx002 (talk) 10:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In addition, you said that PAD is socialists. At the same time, admit that PAD is anti-capitalism. However, definition of Socialism in Wikipedia is describe below.
 * "Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution, it being the transitional stage between capitalism and communism."

This imply that socialists who opposes capitalism are communists. Which means PAD is communist? Amx002 (talk) 13:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * They support restricting voting to the educated and support giving more power to the monarch. SteveSims (talk) 07:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Please follow Talk Page Guidelines
All posters, please follow Talk page guidelines. Namely Patiwat (talk) 14:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ )
 * Try to follow formatting guidelines. Specifically, preceed your comments with indentation (add a colon : or asterix * before each new line).
 * Focus on hard facts. Do not provide political commentary.
 * Focus on improving the article, not on criticizing others.
 * Do not make personal attacks. If you do not agree with someone, do not claim that they are being paid by Thaksin or are disloyal to the King.
 * Share material and links that you think might be relevant to the article.

PAD accused for being Fascist by Italian media.
It takes countries that experienced fascism to know fascists.

June 28th, 2008 Francesco Sisci, LASTAMPA's journalist wrote
 * Source: LASTAMPA, Italy


 * "That situation seems to occur in Thailand, where street protests have cried for new elections three times in as many years. However, the government won the elections each time and belied the protesters, who then proved to represent only a minority of society."


 * "When a minority imposes its will on the majority, it is not a democracy—it is a dictatorship. In fact, in September 2006, after months of loud demonstrations, the military staged a coup d’etat in Thailand that did not punish the protesters but banished the ruling party, Thaksin Shinawatra’s Thai Rak Thai (TRT). The military set new rules, disbanded the TRT, forbid Thaksin from taking part in campaigning, and called new elections for December 2007. Once again, Thaksin won the elections, with a new party that backed him, the People’s Party."


 * "Yet, a month ago, protesters took to the streets once again, demanding the government resignation—just six months after last elections!


 * It is absolutely clear: The protesters represent a minority. As such, they should be allowed to voice their grievances but only as far as they do not interfere with the government functioning.


 * Moreover, as in any democratic country, demonstrations have to be authorized and otherwise must be forcibly removed. This is necessary to prevent the minority from prevailing on the majority and establishing a dictatorship."


 * "This is not happening—the police seem powerless, the military refuses to intervene, and the demonstrations grow bolder by the day. The protesters insist on the same old thing: The prime minister must quit. Why should he quit? Because a mob said so. Then who should appoint the new government? Who knows. Or does somebody?


 * But this is not democracy. This is, once again, a coup d’etat. It does not matter whether the military rolls out tanks to banish the prime minister; it is bad enough that they tolerate a situation where a democratically elected government is held hostage to a rabble shouting empty slogans."


 * "Not only that: Last month, the Thai generals publicly announced on television that “they did not want a coup.” This sounded like a threat—so much so that American Secretary of Defense Robert Gates immediately reacted by saying that the U.S. wanted democracy, not a coup, for Thailand."

This, maybe, is an explanation why USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN 72) was shipped to Gulf of Thailand on September 11th, 2008. Navy.mil

September 21th, 2008. Prachatai was also reported that PAD's new politic is an reintroduction of Nazi. Now, Is it ok to call PAD fascist or Nazi? Amx002 (talk) 16:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Fascist or Nazi?
Nazi should be avoided as explained in Godwin's law and its corollaries. As for Fascist, George Orwell has called "fascism" nothing more than an insult that various groups use against their political opponents. (Retrieved from Fascism and ideology). I have a Farang friend who frankly wonders why PAD espouses fascism (especially the students), but he is unaware of its appeal, and is also likely ignorant of the popularity of fasces as a symbol of "strength through unity", especially in the United States, and the present article won't enlighten him. Any inclusion of "fascist" in the article should come only after careful consideration of the definitions of fascism, and then only in the form of Essay. As for counter-protesters who wear red bandanas to identify themselves, it might be helpful to read the Etymology section of Redneck. Pawyilee (talk) 10:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Admitting that PAD is socialist and anti-capitalist means PAD is communist. Haven't had anyone called communism nothing more than an insult that various groups use against their political opponents?


 * Any inclusion of "fascist" in the article should come only after careful consideration of the definitions of fascism, and then only in the form of Essay#Comparison_and_Contrast. << Then we should consider the following Wikipedia's essay.


 * By definition of regimes on Wikipedia, seem that what PAD do match fascists characteristic. Media in Italy also confirmed it. To think Italians are not knowing fascists is out of mind. Fascism founded by Italian (Benito Mussolini). In addition, i don't think that Italian's media is PAD opposite party. The media is 3rd party and not even in Thailand. Not consider the media as neutral 3rd party source maybe an insult to Italian media standard.

Fascism definition from Wikipedia


 * Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist political ideology and mass movement that is concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence, and which seeks to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, as well as promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.


 * Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, militarism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, class collaboration, populism, collectivism, statism, social interventionism, and economic planning.


 * They thought private property was to be regulated to ensure that "benefit to the community precedes benefit to the individual." They also introduced price controls and other types of economic planning measures.


 * Nationalism is an important element of fascism. Fascists believe the state to have its own distinctive characteristics, culture, and interests, and which is superior to others. Mussolini once said "Everything in the state. Nothing outside the state. Nothing against the state."


 * PAD's Political ideology


 * "Representative democracy is not suitable for Thailand," noted Sondhi Limthongkul, claiming that electoral systems have repeatedly elected allegedly corrupt populist governments. Although most of its leaders supported, and in some cases, helped draft the post-coup 2007 Constitution, the PAD has proposed constitutional amendments that would make 70% of Parliament a royally-appointed body, with elections accounting for only 30%. The PAD also proposed "functional democracy" a system of occupational representation whereby the leaders of occupational and social groups would nominate MPs for royal appointment.


 * Occupational representation or Council democracy was used in Soviet Union. If PAD is not fascist, It's communist?


 * PAD's Nationalist ideology


 * The PAD has been described as "hyper-nationalist," and is strongly opposed to what it claims to be erosions in national sovereignty. It was opposed to the Samak government's decision to support the Cambodian government in applying for the listing of disputed Preah Vihear temple complex as a World Heritage site. The PAD proposed that Thailand withdraw from UNESCO, cancel all recognition that UNESCO has ever granted to Thai archaeological sites, and send a high-ranking delegation to UN Security Council members and, in the words of Sondhi Limthongkul, "ask them to choose between Thai or Cambodian friendship." It also called for Thai investors to withdraw from Cambodia, the closure of all 40 Thai-Cambodian border checkpoints, a ban on all flights from Thailand to Phnom Penh and Siam Reap, the construction of a naval base at Koh Kut near the border, and the abolishment of the committee which oversees demarcation of overlapping sea areas and the unilateral declare a Thai marine map.


 * '''PAD's Economic ideology
 * In contrast to Thaksin, who often spoke of elevating Thailand to the ranks of the developed world, Sondhi advocates a "reasonable society" with little consumer debt, and not concerned with "how many cars or washing machines" people own. The PAD favors limits on foreign investment, opposes privatization of utilities, and is strongly opposed to foreign investment in Thailand. "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand," noted Sondhi Limthongkul in an interview.


 * While Thaksin and Samak championed farmers and the rural poor with their "dual-track" economic policies that combined populist perks like universal healthcare with greater participation in the global economy, the PAD are, in contrast, hardline monetarists. They propose interest rate hikes, cutting down spending on the poor, "mega-projects", and squeezing wages.


 * Extremism Nationalist
 * Although nationalism influences many aspects of life in stable nation-states, its presence is often invisible, since the nation-state is taken for granted. Michael Billig speaks of banal nationalism, the everyday, less visible forms of nationalism, which shape the minds of a nation's inhabitants on a day-to-day basis. Attention concentrates on extreme aspects, and on nationalism in unstable regions. Nationalism may be used as a derogatory label for political parties, or they may use it themselves as a euphemism for xenophobia, even if their policies are no more specifically nationalist, than other political parties in the same country. In Europe, some 'nationalist' anti-immigrant parties have a large electorate, and are represented in parliament. Smaller but highly visible groups also self-identify as 'nationalist', although it may be a euphemism for neo-Nazis or white supremacists. Activists in other countries are often referred to as ultra-nationalists, with a clearly pejorative meaning. See also chauvinism and jingoism.


 * Nationalism is a component of other political ideologies, and in its extreme form, Fascism. However, it is not accurate to simply describe Fascism as a more extreme form of nationalism. Nor is it generally correct to describe non-extreme nationalism as a lesser form of fascism. Fascism in the general sense, and the Italian original, were marked by a strong sense of state nationalism whereas political parties today like the British National Party tend to have a concept of ethnic nationalism, often combined with a form of economic and ethical socialism. That was certainly evident in Nazism. However, the geopolitical aspirations of Adolf Hitler are probably better described as imperialist and, to a lesser degree, colonialist because Nazi Germany ultimately ruled over vast areas where there was no historic German presence (imperialism) with intentions to eventually populate many of the conquered territories with ethnic Germans (colonialism). The Nazi state was so different from the typical European nation-state, that it was sui generis (requires a category of its own).

Amx002 (talk) 13:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * REPLY The concluding statement about Nazism being "sui generis" is right in line with Godwin's Law as to why a comparison with Nazism should be avoided. As for "communist," previous dictatorial regimes in Thailand have turned it into a mere pejorative in Thai contexts. As for the rest, it looks like it could be shaped up into a significant contribution to this article. Citations for the various PAD positions are needed, but shouldn't be hard to come by. Pawyilee (talk) 17:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How about Banjerd Singkaneti's article. The article is comparing Thaksin to Adolf Hitler, written by Patiwat. Where is Godwin's Law there? Amx002 (talk) 18:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Godwin devised his Law (and others built on it) with reference to discussions such as the one on this Talk page. Its antecedents lie in Reductio ad Hitlerum, also called argumentum ad Hitlerum, or reductio (or argumentum) ad Nazium – dog Latin for "reduction (or argument) to Adolf Hitler (or the Nazis)" – a modern informal fallacy in logic. It is a variety of both questionable cause and association fallacy. The phrase reductio ad Hitlerum was coined by an academic ethicist, Leo Strauss, in 1953. Engaging in this fallacy is sometimes known as playing the Nazi card. Doing so (that is, playing the Nazi card) destroys one's credibility, which is why you have been patiently advised not to do it. If indeed Patiwat initiated the article on Banjerd Singkaneti, note that he also included the protest of The Embassy of Israel as published in the Bangkok Post. That protest, strictly my POV of course, demolishes Banjerd's credibility. Notice, however, that that is MY POV; others, who prefer not to be confused by facts, would believe that it is the Israelis' credibility that has been demolished. As for your credibility, write now I think you incredibly angry, which is not a bad thing to be, if only you learn to focus it properly. If you do learn to focus properly, then you will find that you and Patiwat are allies opposed to the policies of PAD as practiced in present-day Thailand, without reference to what went wrong in the middle of the last century in the middle of Europe. Pawyilee (talk) 08:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You assume too much.Why I one who disclose the fact has to angry? Learn to focus? It sound good, what is the meaning? meditation? I'm not try to discredit Patiwat but I asking that "if Godwin's Law is enforced here, why the Law is not enforce there?". You're the one who suppose to give the answer. For Patiwat, I read his blog, before wrote previous reply. I'm also know that he is against military constitution. I raise his issue to focus on someone which you should know by now.
 * First of all, I wrote about Banjerd Singkaneti's article. If read all article would know that Banjerd is against western-style democracy. The reason I put Patiwat name in paragraph because he initiated the article. I believe it's manner to put writer name after the article I refer to. Because Wikipedia listing user topic, I'm able to read articles of writer I desired. Even tracking change of the articles. Though I not read all articles of my interesting writers, I read some. Would like you to understand my POV. When I ask a question, I really curious on it and demand answer. If you felt that my questions are too offensive, I apologize.

Amx002 (talk) 10:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No question you ask is offensive, and I hope my answers are not offensive, either. Nor is "Godwin' Law" being enforced here; I simply invoked it -- that is, called it to attention -- in the hope that those posting here would read it and understand why comparisons to Hitler are inevitable if a discussion goes on long enough, but, as such comparison shows that someone has a poor grasp of both history and of debate, it signals that the discussion should end. The discussion hasn't ended, so the "Law" is being ignored, not enforced. Please note that Patiwat put what Banjerd said in the article, which does NOT mean that Patiwat, himself, said it. Note, also, that Patiwat balanced what Banjerd said with the Israeli Embassy's reply. Note also that Patiwat went on to add that Banjerd "rejected western-style democracy in favor of traditional social customs." The article then quotes him as saying, "...social structure and administration through traditions and customs that we once had in small communities [are] more real than western-style democracy because people rule by themselves."

[And it really sucked, to use a western-style phrase.] Note that exposing these views does not in any way imply approval, and in fact the tone and tenor of the article makes it appear that Banjerd does not have enough sense to come in out of the reign. Pawyilee (talk) 17:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Asian Human Rights Commission is recognized PAD as fascists.
 * ผู้วิจารณ์และฝ่ายต่อต้านพันธมิตรฯ บางส่วนได้เรียกวาระทางการเมืองของพันธมิตรฯ ว่าเป็นฟาสซิสต์ ซึ่งไม่ใช่คำกล่าวที่เกินเลย ประสบการณ์แสดงให้เห็นว่าการเปลี่ยนแปลงเชิงระบบและระบอบที่จะเกิดตามมาหลังขบวนการเช่นว่านี้มีลักษณะความเป็นฟาสซิสต์ (แม้ว่าพวกเขาอาจจะไม่ได้อธิบายตนเองว่าเป็นฟาสซิสต์ก็ตาม)  ที่จริงแล้ว เผด็จการที่สืบเนื่องมาในประวัติศาสตร์สมัยใหม่ของไทยล้วนชื่นชอบ แสดง และใช้สัญลักษณ์และนโยบายแบบฟาสซิสต์จำนวนมาก และคราบไคลของสิ่งเหล่านี้สามารถพบได้ในภาษาและพฤติกรรมของแกนนำพันธมิตรในวันนี้
 * Some Critics and Anti PAD calling PAD fascists which is not exaggerate. History shows that attempt to change regime would result in fascist regime (Though PAD is not describe themselves as fascists). In fact, based on Thai history, a lot of dictatorships tends to use fascism symbol or policy. Nowadays, Fascism stinky sweat could be found in language and behavior of PAD. Amx002 (talk) 21:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

International Crisis Group accused PAD for opposing democracy and supporting autocratic.
September 22th, 2008 - International Crisis Group, which is an independent, international, non-profit, non-governmental organization, is recognize PAD as anti-democratic and autocratic group.

Source: ICG


 * Complaints of govern­ment incompetence or malpractice can and should be pursued through democratic and constitutional means, in­cluding the courts and parliament. But the PAD’s proposals for a “new politics” – essentially a reversion to government by the elite, with only 30 per cent of parliamentarians elected – is profoundly anti-democratic and a recipe for dictatorship. Even the current constitutional settlement – imposed by the military government last year – gives the courts and bureaucracy too much power to thwart and undermine an elected government for relatively minor failings. Samak has already been disqualified from office for an offence which in most countries would be regarded as trivial, and the future of the PPP-led government is under nearly as much threat in the courts as from the streets.

September 24th, 2008 - Saimrath newspaper accused PAD for trying to destroy democracy and supporting dictatorship. Amx002 (talk) 01:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * REPLY Dear Amx002, you have made a good case, now make a good addiction to the article! To start it in your own sandbox, make sure you are logged in, then click User:Amx002/Sandbox and start writing. If you want us to help, then save your sandbox and ask us to view it. Specify if you want us to "play" in your sandbox with you, or just leave comments on its Talk page. I, for one, will come over as soon as you invite me. Pawyilee (talk) 09:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * REPLY Please take a look on my sandbox. You're welcome. Could you leave your comments on Talk page, please. Amx002 (talk) 12:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Are Manager and ASTV PAD's propaganda?
Manager Newspaper is a company under supervision of Sondhi Limthongkul. Sondhi using Manager as a propaganda to destroy his opposite parties. After relationship between him and Thaksin became bad. Sondhi used Manager to destroy Thanksin and his government. After continuously attacked by Manager, Thaksin sued Sondhi and Manager newspaper for THB 500 million on 11 October 2005.

This enabled Sondhi to accuse Thaksin for media threatening. As result, Thai media had attacked Thaksin up until now. These nullify government's ability to handle media disinformation tactics by laws. Thaksin and his party, therefore, had started to invade in mass media business. 'Kwam Jing Wan Nee' (Today's truth or ความจริงวันนี้) that broadcasting on NBT is also consequence of inability to sue media.

With excuse of media threatening, many media were reporting news based on what they want. Because of false information that were against government, PAD gain a lot of supporters. Up until now, Manager continuously using the tactics.

Since PAD is anti-privatization and PTT Public Company Limited was privatized on Thaksin government era. Manager and ASTV were used as propaganda to attack government and accused PTT of forgery and cheating Thai.

Manager published forgery documents about the issues on their newspaper and website. These two articles are written by Prasard Metam (ประสาท มีแต้ม). The journalist is also Mathematics instructor from Prince of Songkla University, Science faculty. His blog can be found here.

These articles were for attacking PTT. Manager journalist accused PTT for lying to people about importing Liquefied petroleum gas. In the first article, the journalist reports that PTT was not imported LPG on April and May as cliamed. However, LPG is a mixture of Propane and Butane. Since PTT is able to mix them together, Propane and Butane were imported instead of LPG. After this news was released, many Thai on internet harassed journalist for his foolishness. Four days later, the journalist released episode 2 of PTT lying. He queried Propane and Butane data instead of LPG. However, the number of HS-Code digits is not same as previous article.

In 2007, customs complied HS2007 standard which made HS-Code became 11 digits (Old HS-Code is 10 digits). Thai customs department has different pages for query data. One page is for data before 2007.The other for 2007 till now. In the first article, journalist used screen from HS2007 system which using 11 digits HS-Code.

image from 1st article

However, in second article, the journalist using screen from legacy system which using 10 digits HS-Code.

image from 2nd article

Legacy system hold data up till 2006. In addition, the system only allow user to select statistics of 2001 till 2006. Though, the journalist still able to get 2008 data from legacy system. It's clear that screen was forged.

Legacy system. Import - Export Statistics from January 2001  to  December 2006.

HS2007, current system. Import - Export Statistics from January 2007  to  August 2008.

JAN-APR 2008, Import statistic of Butane

Manager was also accused PTT for over pricing. They claimed that Crude oil price on world market is CIF. Claiming that PTT can perform extraction from oil wells and oil fields in Thailand. Yet, still charge Thai for freight cost. This claim is absolutely ridiculous. In addtion, journalist claim that PTT importing Heavy Sour crude oil which is cheaper than Sweet crude oil. Thus oil price should be cheaper. However, refinement cost of heavy sour crude oil is higher than sweet crude oil


 * ''Sour crude oil is crude oil containing the impurity sulfur. It is common to find crude oil containing some impurities. When the total sulfur level in the oil is > 0.5 % the oil is called sour.


 * The impurities will need to be removed before this lower quality crude can be refined into gasoline, thereby increasing the cost of processing. This results in a higher-priced gasoline than one made from sweet crude oil. Thus sour crude is usually processed into heavy oil such as diesel and fuel oil rather than gasoline to reduce processing cost. - From Wikipedia Heavy Sour crude oil pages

In the article, Journalist didn't report that refinery costs of Sour crude oil is higher. Worse, even accused refinery for overpricing. This action can be considered as propaganda too.

This article was written by Tivakorn Na Krungtep (ทิวากร ณ กรุงเทพฯ, email: Divakorn@hotmail.com). I guess it's pen name.

Manager's news readers are elite-class, highly graduated and management level employees. Some even graduated from well-known oversea university. Though the evidences are obvious. Yet, they were unable to notice. These could be notice by news reader's comments on Manager's website. In my opinion, I believe that they are ignorance and lacking of justification.

There are many forgery and disinformation that has been done by PAD supporters. Government and victims are acknowledged of the issues, yet inability to sue as afraid of 'media threatening' claim.

These are clearly show their intention of forgery and disinformation.

Disinformation on Internet
PAD supporters using many way of disinformation including Internet. They're using mass e-mail, posting news in forum (especially news from Manager). Even in Wikipedia, PAD disinformation still can be found. On People's Alliance for Democracy page, Revision as of 23:13, 8 September 2008, Id 237164446, Patiwat added picture of a man in red shirt got beaten by group of men in yellow. And claimed it's a picture of Unarmed PAD protesters defending themselves against an anti-PAD protesters. Even though on the top of previous version of the article have this following sentence.


 * The People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) (Thai: พันธมิตรประชาชนเพื่อประชาธิปไตย; also called the National Liberation Alliance - กลุ่มพันธมิตรกู้ชาติ, the National Liberation Party - พลพรรคกู้ชาติ, and the Yellow Shirts - คนเสื้อเหลือง) was originally a coalition of protesters against Thaksin Shinawatra, the former Prime Minister of Thailand.

While the fact is Anti-PAD got beaten by a group of PAD. After that EyeSerene restored the above version back as last known good version. (Revision as of 09:43, 10 September 2008, Id 237466804)

Protestors armed with guns
I'm sure that someone will attempt to delete this edit, here is the source from AP: "Witnesses reported hearing gunshots throughout the day, though who was firing them could not be determined. Some police had shotguns, and an AP Television News reporter saw at least three protesters carrying guns." http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gXtkIJGFlHXR5qT3LIG2olEVZyFQD93LSTGO0 Patiwat (talk) 22:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * About firing gun, It's air on Channel 9, 7 October 2008, around 19.10. Video clip can be found at ME System Live or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_kx0qQ-1oA. The clip show that PAD protesters shot polices by Handgun. Protesters are also hit polices by car and ran over injured polices . Video clip can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EclHSHBJeaA. Many polices injured and in Coma.  Amx002 (talk) 04:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The clip only shows single protestor shot the gun into the sky. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 07:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * So they are armed or unarmed? Suggest to change "unarmed protesters" to "armed protesters" in main article. Amx002 (talk) 08:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's hard to figure out who is who. The person can be PAD, or opposing group disguised to discredit PAD, or some unrelated party who just want violence. You cannot just believe what you see without analysis. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 15:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * For Amx002, here is from the other side: Police shooting handgun and The wounded person was planted bomb in the hand after losing conscious (his hand was empty before blackout). --Lerdsuwa (talk) 03:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * From Daily Xpress, the object in the hand of the wounded person was amulet case and keychain. This was from the doctor who treated him, a good explanation. Still no good explanation about the police shooting photo, Daily Xpress put it on the frontpage with sarcasm headline "We only use tear gases". --Lerdsuwa (talk) 16:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Suggest not to used Manager Press as references as it is company under Sondhi supervision. In addition, the press commit forgery on Customs website and may do forgery on regular basis. Amx002 (talk) 08:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Seripisut
The sentense was removed that I restore back:
 * but is well known for taking on mafias including those in the police

This is his image as viewed from public. It is referenced as in http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0208/p04s02-woap.html

Some more references cited from well known newspaper: --Lerdsuwa (talk) 06:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Bo Bae mafia http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Govt-Drive-Mafia-Gangs-Steps-t30962.html
 * Longan price http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2005/06/14/national/data/national_17696704.html
 * Russian mafia in Pattaya http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/05/national/national_30028505.php
 * CD pirates and policemen http://www.jetrobkk-ip.com/uploads/news/feb07en_85.pdf
 * Loggin scandal http://www.burmalibrary.org/reg.burma/archives/199803/msg00601.html
 * Mafia at airport http://www.greatwall.biz/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=67


 * Everybody appointed by the military junta was well known for something or another. What does this have to do with the PAD? That is the subject of the article.  Justifications of the military's appointments should be done in the CNS article.  Patiwat (talk) 15:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thai know that biggest mafia in Thailand is military and 2nd place is police. Maybe should enlighten us about who is behind underground lotto and Car trafficking. Car trafficking is importing car by claim those cars are for government. To do so, would got tax exempt (Tax rate for importing car is about 200-300%). After that, someone in government just selling those car to 3rd party (eg., citizen or 2nd hand car dealer). Amx002 (talk) 05:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Amx002, this is not an article about police corruption or about military corruption - this is an article about the PAD. Lerdsuwa, again, how is a justification of the military junta's appointments relevant to this article? Patiwat (talk) 14:52, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't you know why military junta picked him and why Samak get rid off him? Article full of what has happenned is not that useful. It should give some insight why it happen. Moving him is one main reason why PAD think justice system was being interfered and causing PAD to be reestablished. Furthermore, it's very short. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 11:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Patiwat, You might know reason of my previous reply now. Amx002 (talk) 05:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Like all the junta's appointments, he was picked because he was an outspoken critic of Thaksin. After purging the police force, the military junta needed all the friends (or cronies, depending on your perspective) it could find in the police.  If you're going to try to give a reasonable defense of the junta's appointments, the Wikipedia principle of balance requires that the article also give a reasonable defense of why Samak fired him. The same applies for all other junta appointments.  I frankly don't think we should even bother: this article is about the PAD, not the junta.  Patiwat (talk) 13:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thai princess doesn't believe that protesters are acting on behalf of the monarchy
The princess was asked at a press conference following her talk whether she agreed with protesters who say they are acting on behalf of the monarchy.
 * "I don't think so," she replied. "They do things for themselves."

'The Japan Times' says PAD have no respect for democracy or the rule of law
13 October 2008, The Japan Times accused PAD for not respect rule of law and oppose democracy. The press suggest that PAD should respect rule of law and legal process but not street protest. Coup or dissolving parliament wouldn't resolve the problems, the journalist believes. To do so, would just postpone the reckoning as a fair vote would likely return PPP to power. Amx002 (talk) 08:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

"The action is clearly violates medical ethics"
A statement like this should not be made lightly. Until a medical panel rules that it violates medical ethics, I wouldn't state it like this. I would instead state it as "XXX accused the doctors of violating medical ethics," where XXX can be a journalist or a medical authority making the accusation. Or "the doctors' actions were done in apparent violation of their Hippocratic Oaths." Patiwat (talk) 20:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

DUTIES OF PHYSICIANS IN GENERAL
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	 not allow his/her judgment to be influenced by personal profit or unfair discrimination.
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	 be dedicated to providing competent medical service in full professional and moral independence, with compassion and respect for human dignity. 
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	 certify only that which he/she has personally verified.
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	 strive to use health care resources in the best way to benefit patients and their community. 
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	 seek appropriate care and attention if he/she suffers from mental or physical illness. 
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	respect the local and national codes of ethics.

DUTIES OF PHYSICIANS TO PATIENTS
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	 always bear in mind the obligation to respect human life.
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	act in the patient's best interest when providing medical care.
 * A PHYSICIAN SHALL 	give emergency care as a humanitarian duty unless he/she is assured that others are willing and able to give such care.

DECLARATION OF GENEVA
 * ''I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;


 * I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life;''

Amx002 (talk) 07:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The Medical Association of Thailand has given a green light to the actions of the Chulalongkorn Faculty of Medicine physician. Patiwat (talk) 13:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * From news what I'm understand are, Chulalongkorn Hospital claimed that it's individual action. The doctor took action as his daughter got injured. In addition, Chulalongkorn Hospital also declared that the hospital will not support discrimination. WMA said in the e-mail that they would closely monitor the issue and try the best to ensure highest possible standards of of medical care, ethics, education and health-related human rights for all people. Any phase or paragraph could be considered the Medical Association of Thailand giving a green light to violate Declaration of Geneva? Amx002 (talk) 08:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The Medical Association of Thailand said simply that it was a personal decision, and therefore the Chulalongkorn Faculty of Medicine physician was free to continue to deny medical care to policemen if he so wished. The MAT did not conclude that his behavior was in violation of medical ethics and it did not request that he change his behavior in any way.  That is a green light.  Patiwat (talk) 06:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Which means MAT is all right with doctor who break Hippocratic Oaths. Curious me if MAT still following the oaths.
 * When doctors decide to violate their Hippocratic Oaths, and refuse to treat injured police officers, you know things are bad. Jonathan Head, BBC reporter Amx002 (talk) 07:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

PAD guards shoot drunk driver for given them the finger
I'll mention this in the article when the situation becomes a bit clearer and when an unbiased source corroborates it. From [Manager http://www.manager.co.th/Crime/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000129792]:

จากการสอบสวน นายเสกสรรค์ให้การว่า ก่อนเกิดเหตุประมาณ 20.00 น.วานนี้ (1 พ.ย.) พวกตนทั้ง 5 คนเดินทางมาจากบ้านย่าน จ.สมุทรปราการ เพื่อมาเที่ยวกันที่ถนนข้าวสาร โดยหลังจากดื่มกินกันจนร้านปิดประมาณ 01.30 น.ก็พากันขึ้นรถคันดังกล่าวกลับบ้านโดยมีนายจรูญ เป็นคนขับ ส่วนตนนั่งหน้าข้างนายจรูญและที่เหลือนั่งเบาะหลัง แต่พวกตนเกิดหลงทางจึงขับรถวนไปมาเพื่อจะหาทางขึ้นสะพานพุทธฯ จนกระทั่งเมื่อมาถึงบริเวณแยก จปร.ไม่ทราบว่าเป็นเพราะความเมาของนายจรูญหรือไม่ จึงเลี้ยวซ้ายมุ่งหน้าไปทางสะพานมัฆวานฯ ซึ่งเป็นที่ชุมนุมของกลุ่มพันธมิตรฯ นายเสกสรรค์ กล่าวต่อว่า เมื่อไปถึงบริเวณแยกสะพานมัฆวานฯ นายจรูญก็ลดกระจกลงแล้วยกนิ้วกลางให้กลุ่มการ์ดของพันมิตรฯ จากนั้นก็รีบกลับรถเพื่อขับมุ่งหน้ากลับไปทางแยก จปร.เช่นเดิม จากนั้นก็ถูกไล่ยิงมาหลายนัด และนายจรูญถูกยิงได้รับบาดเจ็บ และขับต่อไม่ไหว จนกระทั่งมาจอดอยู่ตรงจุดเกิดเหตุ และถูกเจ้าหน้าที่ ส.ห.คุมตัวเอาไว้

Apparantly, some drunk drivers took a wrong turn and found themselves at a PAD guard post. The driver gave the guards the middle finger, then made a u-turn. He was hit by multiple gunshots but managed to escape, but was arrested. The shooters inside PAD controlled territory were not arrested. The PAD claims that the drunk driver shot at them first. The yellows did not report any injuries. - Patiwat (talk) 17:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Black Magic (the sanitary pad incident)
At first I thought this had to be a hoax. But it turns out that Matichon is reporting that 1) used sanitary pads were indeed placed in front of the King Rama V equestrian monument, 2) the pads were indeed placed by members of the PAD, and 3) Sondhi himself has acknowledged that this was done for black magic purposes. Source:   Bizarre, but not the first bizarre black magic-related thing the PAD has done.  I'll update the article when I have a bit more time - others can go ahead and do so if they wish. Patiwat (talk) 06:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It was all only from Sondhi's speech. I can't find any other proof. Most newspaper didn't care to write about it. Why does it belong here? --Lerdsuwa (talk) 06:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sondhi is one of PAD leaders. Imply that his words are not enough as proof means PAD leaders are speech nonsense and/or lie. Personally, I believe it's true as PAD was performed magic ritual in 1 August 2008.
 * Sondhi's speech about putting used sanitary on the monument can be found at youtube . What he said on stage is
 * "...เหมือนอย่างที่ พระแก้วมรกต ข้างหลังจะมีหินอยู่ก้อนหนึ่ง คนใจชั่วร่วมมือกับคนบางคน ในสำนักพระราชวัง ใช้ไอ้หมอเขมรเข้าไปหลังพระแก้วมรกตแกะหินก้อนนั้นออกมา เพราะหินก้อนนั้นคือหินส่วนสำคัญในการที่จะส่งพลังออกมา หรือว่า พระรูปทรงม้าที่ผมเล่าให้พ่อแม่พี่น้องฟัง เค้าทำของ ทำเป็นหมุดหกเหลี่ยม ตรึงพระรูปทรงม้าไว้เป็นรูปแบบนี้ อย่างงี้ แล้วก็อย่างงี้ แล้วตรงกลางคือพระรูปทรงม้า ไม่ให้เสด็จพ่อเนี่ย ส่งพลังออกมาได้เลย ซึ่งผมเล่าให้ฟังแล้ว ว่าเราไปถอดออกมาหมดแล้วทั้งหกจุด แล้วก็ต้องขอบคุณพ่อแม่พี่น้องพันธมิตรผู้หญิง เพราะว่าพอถอดออกหมดเรียบร้อยแล้ว ไม่ให้มันกลับมา เขาก็เลยเอาโกเต๊ก ผู้หญิงที่มีประจำเดือน 6 ชิ้น (เสียงกรี๊ด ชอบใจ) เอาไปวาง 6 จุด ผู้มีอภิญญาก็บอกว่า ไอ้หมอผี มันโกรธมาก เพราะมันส่งผีกลับมาไม่ได้อีกแล้ว มันเสื่อมหมด ...(เสียงกรี๊ด ชอบใจ)"
 * Roughly translate, Sondhi said that he put 6 used sanitaries napkins in hexagram shape. The monument was in center of those sanitary napkins. He claim it's a ritual to counter black magic performed by Cambodian. The black magic was performed by Cambodian black wizard with cooperation of someone in 'Bureau of The Royal House Hold, The Kingdom of Thailand', Sondhi claimed.

P.S.

After this incident, PAD supporters were widely called Sanitary pad's mob (ม็อบโกเต๊ก or Mob Go Tek). For Sondhi, he was called Go-Tub (โกตั๊บ). 'โกเต๊ก' means Sanitary napkin but it's impolite word. 'โกตั๊บ' is without meaning. I guess it's word playing. Suggest to use napkin instead of pad. PAD supporters might take it as an insult if we use Sanitary PAD instead of Sanitary NAPKIN. Amx002 (talk) 07:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Political movement or Terrorism act?
While PAD supporter were moving around Bangkok, they were shoot at innocent people, used weapon to threaten people who are not with them, committed arson on cars and motor bike. . Amx002 (talk) 13:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Seem it's not political movement anymore but terrorism. Also against human rights. Buy kids and use them as shield. Some protesters intake pills and stimulants.


 * Parents 'giving up kids for cash in Thai protests'
 * Protesters in Thailand are luring children into their airport rally by paying mums and dads to give up their kids, according to an Australian trapped in the country.
 * Inga Vennell, who was due to leave the country on Wednesday after a backpacking trip, told ninemsn shopkeepers, out-of-pocket tourists and children were being paid to join the rally.
 * Ms Vennell said the more violent protesters — the "rebels" — were taking stimulants and pills to keep themselves awake, which was making them more agitated and angry.

Introduction length and structure
The introduction has been shortened significantly. The first paragraph is an overview of their aims, leaders, and pre-coup history. The second paragraph relates their post-coup activities. The third paragraph relates their political stance. It comes to about 500 words now, try not to make it too much longer. Patiwat (talk) 21:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality
Someone placed a neutrality tag on the article. What particular points in the article stray from POV? Please be specific. Patiwat (talk) 03:40, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * PAD looks like a fascist mob to me, but we can't say that in the article. Right now, this article looks like it was written by anti-PAD people. If the source is an opinion piece, then write i.e. "Foo Bar has said that PAD are violent fascists". --Apoc2400 (talk) 12:15, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think more should be said about the event on 6th October where many PAD members are violently attacked by police force (or at least they claimed so). And maybe more information on Thaksin's corruption and his conflict with Sondhi. --Varoot (talk) 17:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are articles on Thaksin and Sondhi that go into great detail on the allegations of corruption and the long-term relationship between Sondhi and Thaksin. This article is about neither of those individuals: this article is about the PAD.  This article already contains citation-supported details about what happened on 6 October.  Note that this article does NOT consider Manager or other PAD-run media as neutral citations. Patiwat (talk) 18:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any further discussion on this topic, so I've removed the tag. Patiwat (talk) 21:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, you seem to be doing a pretty good work on this article. Could you also take a look at National United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) and put some link between the articles? --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Photos, please
This article needs some free pictures of a PAD protest. Patiwat (talk) 18:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't quite understand about concept of free picture that can be used on wikipedia. I post picture at my discussion page please choose some that you seem fit. Amx002 (talk) 06:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In short, a "free" photo is a photo where the copyright owner has allowed the photo to be used by anybody in in any non-commercial way. Thus, a photo taken from a newspaper's website is generally not considered a "free" photo - it belongs to the newspaper or the photographer, and we should respect their ownership.  If you take a photo by yourself, you can make it a "free" photo by simply saying that others have the ability to use it in any way they want. Patiwat (talk) 15:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Lot of pictures are from thaienews. They are fine if wikipedia going to use their pictures. In fact, they would like to spread those pictures as wide as possible on internet. Please visit their site and ask for those free picture. http://thaienews.blogspot.com/ Amx002 (talk) 17:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I added some pictures of the protests. You can find more at Commons:Category:People's Alliance for Democracy and Commons:Category:2008 Thai political crisis. Most pictures are from Flickr, where we can take image with cc-by and cc-by-sa licences. If you have taken pictures yourself, you can upload it] under a free licence of your choice. Taking from news websites is not ok. Images must be freely licensed for any use. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In case pictures from Flickr can be used.
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/agron/tags/pad/ Photos all rights reserved
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/agron/sets/72157607015254159/ Photos all rights reserved
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/norporkor/ Not original photographer
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/mebefree Photos all rights reserved


 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlapalme/2813623934/ Photo all rights reserved
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlapalme/2813861640/ Photo all rights reserved
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlapalme/2812799067/ Photo all rights reserved
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/mebefree/3069593305/ Photo all rights reserved
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/mebefree/3069593301/ Photo all rights reserved
 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/mebefree/3069950605/ Photo all rights reserved
 * Sorry, none of the photos you proposed are suitable for use here. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 03:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * [Removed superfluous outdated links to unlicenced images. 120.146.198.199 (talk) 02:56, 17 April 2010 (UTC)]

Pitak Siam
http://asiancorrespondent.com/92508/thai-anti-government-protesters-clash-with-police/ Reincarnation? --Pawyilee (talk) 04:23, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

2012 update
By AP News Dec 27, 2012 4:47PM UTC Thai ‘Yellow Shirt’ leaders charged for 2008 rally --Pawyilee (talk) 13:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)