Talk:Pepi II Neferkare/Archive 1

Dates of Reign
Erm...are you sure the dates are right here? The 6th dynasty lists Pepi II as ruling much earlier than the actual page does. This is very confusing as I'm trying to find out who would have been Pharoah in the year 2270 BC.

Lady BlahDeBlah 22:37, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Basically it depends upon which chronolgy scheme you chose use see Egyptian chronology Fornadan (t) 23:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Lawks...now I'm even more confused. I think I'll just find out the names of those who would have been Pharoah at that year using the different chronologies, and pick which one I could spell easiest... Lady BlahDeBlah 22:48, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Couple of possible solutions to make it clearer that someone who knows more could impliment:
 * 1) state which egyptian chronology is being used (ie Shaw or Breasted)
 * 2) list both types of dates.
 * A book i'm looking at, whilst clearly not the most reliable source (A shite history of nearly everything, ISBN 1-84317-138-4, page 97), states 2566 -2476 bc as his dates of reign. I'm assuming that this is using another form of chronology to the one used here. Hellfire83 16:03, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Two things;


 * 1.) The current dates given (2221 to 2118 BC) do not even add up to 94 years . . . that's 103. So regardless of which chronology is used, it would probably be a good idea to at least do the math on his reign correctly.


 * 2.) Since it can't be agreed upon which chronology to use, it may be wise to go off of the dates given to his predecessor, Merenre, which is 2283 to 2278 BC. In fact, this has already been done in the article for the Sixth dynasty, listing Pepi II's reign as 2278 to 2184 BC, which is in line with the dates presented in the Merenre article.


 * Therefore, in the interests of forgoing any chronological debates, and preserving a sense of continuity amongst the Wikipedia articles, I'm going to change his reignal dates to the aforementioned, and just for kicks, since the consensus seems to be that he was six years old when he came to the throne, I'll add in his birth and death, too. --Palpatine 10:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The dates seem quite consistant through out all the sites iv'e been to. About 9 in 10 sites state the same information.

24th century BC says that he started to reign in 2383, which is contrast with this article. --67.172.13.176 (talk) 15:58, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Homosexuality?
I'm sceptical of the claim, given the paucity of data available and given that two of the references point to the Middle Kingdom. Can anyone verify the Greenberg ref?
 * David Greenberg, The Construction of Homosexuality, 1988; Parkinson, R.B.

--Michael C. Price talk 00:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes I can. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:18, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there on-line verification available? --Michael C. Price talk 11:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Just checked. Greenberg refers to the two texts (p129): "The texts begin by describing a conspiracy to obstruct a judicial hearing, but the outcome of the conspiracy is unknown becuase part of the manuscript is missing. The narration resumes by telling of a commoner who discovers that Neferkare was making regular secret nocturnal visits to the home of General Sisene who was unmarried or living without a wife. A homosexual relationship between Neferkare and his general is clearly implied." The source Greenberg uses is Posener (1957), Le conte de Neferkare et du General Sisene (Recherches Litteraires, VI) Rev. Egypt. II, 119-37. I guess, however, it's Greenberg's interpretation that the relationship is clearly implied (perhaps Posener but I haven't read), we could make that clearer in the article. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:35, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Fascinating - Pepi II emerges from the shadows :-) Does Greenberg identify which "two texts" these are?  It would be nice to be able to give a pointer to the primary material.--Michael C. Price talk 11:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Sadly not. He just describes them as dating from around 1295BC. I suspect Posener will identify them though - but I don't know how to track down his periodical article. Contaldo80 (talk) 13:19, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * This might help - seems to refer to two/ three? fragmentary sources:

Teti, a commoner, saw “the divine person of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Neferkare, going out during the night to walk on his own… [Remaining hidden,] Teti said to himself, ‘if this is the case, then it is true what is said about him, that he goes forth during the night.’ … [Then Teti followed the king, who] arrived at the house of the general Sasenet. He threw up a stone and stamped his foot, at which a [ladder] was lowered down for him. He climbed up, and Teti son of Henet waited... When his divine person had done what he wanted to with [the general], he returned to the palace, and Teti son of Henet followed him...” Teti then notes that the king went to the general’s house at the fourth hour of the night [10 p.m.] and spent four hours there.”

The problem of course is that the source is written at least a thousand years after Neferkare lived so must cast heavy doubt on whether the events described actually happened? Nevertheless those writing in the middle kingdom wanted to describe the relationship - perhaps to underline the corruption/ decay of the Neferkare dynasty? Contaldo80 (talk) 13:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, perhaps to "explain" the collapse of the Old Kingdom, which was probably caused by prolonged drought. The Middle Kingdom writers were notorious inventors of legends. Two links, which I gather you've seen,:   --Michael C. Price talk 13:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Helpful thanks. Do you think we need to amend the text in any way then - perhaps to set the context? Contaldo80 (talk) 15:35, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think just say what we've agreed here; context, background, that sort of thing.
 * BTW here is a source that gives papyri references. Also .  Anyone speak German? . --Michael C. Price talk 17:25, 5 January 2010 (UTC)