Talk:Perch

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Discussion
What is the American definition of "species"?

I thought the basic distinction between species and subspecies was that cross-breeding between two species either does not produce any offspring or does not produce fertile offspring. Americans seem to have a much wider definition of species as compared to Europeans. In all of Eurasia there is only one Arcic hare (Lepus timidus) whereas in the US and Canada, this species is not only a different species, but three different species! (user: Wiglaf)


 * That's the general definition, but all the references I can find state that the yellow perch is (as of 2003, anyway) still considered a valid species. If you could provide a source which supports the claim that cross-breeding of yellow and European perch has resulted in viable offspring, then you've won your argument. I can't find any.


 * On a similar note, where did you get your weight measurement for European perch? 10.5 kilograms seems a slight too extreme; FishBase lists a max published weight of 4.75 kg.


 * As an aside, the classification of the discus is similarly questionable: there are two recognized species, but aquarists have known for ages that crossings will result in viable offspring. It's a murky subject, but I'd rather not disagree with the taxonomical authorities unless we can back up the discrepancy. Hadal 13:10, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Here it is: http://www.fundp.ac.be/recherche/projets/en/99275103.html According to the site (which seems reliable), cross-breeding the two stocks is a way of improving growth. You can keep the yellow perch as a separate species if you want to (I won't interfere), but in my mind it would be more "correct" to regard it as a subspecies.

The weight information comes from this link http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/fishfacts/fish/pfluviat.htm Apparently, it was 10.4 kg It's a reasonable maximum weight considering the fact that the European perch grows to be twice as long as the yellow perch.Wiglaf


 * From my interpretation, your cite seems to contradict the notion of a subspecies. Not only do they reference the yellow perch as a distinct species (Perca flavescens), they also mention the nature of the offspring produced in this research:


 * "... by mastering the technique for producing monosex female populations and sterile triploids"


 * The above quote may only be referencing the non-hybrid European perch stocks, but either way it's not clear. There is no mention of viable offspring, unless I'm missing something. The only point which is explicitly stated is that of heterosis in the hybrids. A hybrid can be valuable to the aquaculture industry even if it's sterile; take the tiger muskellunge as but one example.


 * As for the weight measurement, I suspect it may be a typo but I won't argue it for now. All of these sources:, , , may be wrong, and I've mentioned the discrepancy for others to check if they see fit. Hadal 14:17, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sure, do as you please. I was only trying to contribute. I am sorry if it wasn't worth much. Wiglaf


 * You have! Your contributions are worthy and greatly appreciated, and you've raised an excellent question. It still isn't completely clear whether the two species are truly distinct or not. I'm simply concerned about siding with one camp over the other based on a somewhat vague reference. I'll reword the entry to read something like "although recognized as a distinct species, some consider the yellow perch to be a subspecies of European perch". How's that sound? Hadal 14:33, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It sounds fine! Thanks! The question of whether a population is a subspecies or a species is sometimes more a question of convention (as in the case of the discus fish). If most authorities regard them as two distinct species, it is probably the most correct way of defining them. Wiglaf


 * It gets worse - in the plant world there are viable crosses between different genera(!), such as in orchids. Taxonomy can be a murky subject, and you can find plenty of heated arguments in the literature. Stan 14:50, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * If the type species is Perca fluvialatis, then why does the article state that it is usually know as the Yellow Perch? USA is not the whole world. In addition to that, why mention that three species are commonly recognised and then list a handful?82.6.1.85 (talk) 23:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Anatomy Question: Teeth?
The Purdue University web site list Walleye as a Perch, and state that they have sharp teeth. So do Perch in general have sharp teeth? Link is below: https://www.purdue.edu/hhs/nutr/fish4health/indiana/FishesofIndiana/Perches/Walleye.htm

Trivia?
I don't think the perch trivia should be here at all. Perch and Bass have very similar names in German. (barsch vs. seebarsch ) Bush is known to have stocked his lake with Largemouth Bass. Reuters translated his speech with perch, AP used bass. 7.5 pounds is nowhere near a record, but is a satisfying catch. This "trivia" is mildly interesting, but it really has nothing to do with perch. Perhaps it could be moved to the largemouth bass page or the Red Herring page. If anyone concurs, I will delete it here.Juneappal 22:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur with its deletion. This was an innocent translation error and though there was humor in it, does in fact have little to do with perch. I don't think it should be moved anywhere else either though, since though it is mildly interesting right now, the concept itself overall is so benign and uninteresting that it probably does wikipedia a disservice by having it included.

I verified the largemouth bass quote at whitehouse.gov and I'm moving it to that page, let them delete it there. --Our Bold Hero 02:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Bad / wrong linking
Genus Perca in English is linked to Specie Perca fluviatilis in Italian and Spanish. This linking is not correct and should be changed to reflect the relationship between a genus and one of its species.

ICE77 -- 84.223.77.125 21:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

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Why are the Australian fish on here?
The article is about the genus Perca, no? So why are the Australian, non-Perca, fish listed in the "species" section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wabofiur (talk • contribs) 12:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

perca vs perch
Several editors have commented on the poor distinctions made in this article. I have corrected the lead to refer to the genus as such, rather than the common name as used in America, and have drawn a distinction between true perches and other species sharing the common name throughout the article.μηδείς (talk) 23:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed Edits & Sources
The article also needs additional explanation regarding information provided in the anatomy section. Here is an article that I believe might be beneficial to the section talking about the external anatomy of the perch. “External Body Parts of a Bony Fish (Lutjanidae) - Csun.edu.” CSUN.edu, https://www.csun.edu/~msteele/classes/Ich530/handouts/1_external%20anatomy%20and%20taxonomy.pdf The article is also missing information regarding the internal anatomy of the fish. Here is an article that might be helpful to provide additional information on this topic. “Exploring Our Fluid Earth.” Structure and Function - Fish | Manoa.hawaii.edu/ExploringOurFluidEarth, https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringourfluidearth/biological/fish/structure-and-function-fish The article talks about the different species of Perch as if there are only three different species, the European Perch, the Yellow Perch, and the Balkhash Perch; however there are many more species of perch that it fails to mention. Here is an article relating to another very common species of Perch that might be useful to include in the Perch article, the Nile Perch. Pringle, Robert M. “Origins of the Nile Perch in Lake Victoria.” OUP Academic, Oxford University Press, 1 Sept. 2005, https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/55/9/780/286121?login=true. Here is another book that could be used to provide information on the external anatomy of the Perch. It also includes some great images that could potentially be used on the Perch page. Hubbs, Carl L., et al. “Perch Family - Percidae.” Fishes of the Great Lakes Region, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, 2004, pp. 100–109. Elephantidae123 (talk) 18:10, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Proposed Edits & Sources
Hi everyone, I have some proposed ideas to better the "Habitats" section. We looking over this section I noticed that there was many plagiarized phrases as well as, the flow of the section was not the best. I think a better way to phrase this section might be Perch are classified as carnivores, choosing waters where smaller fish, shellfish, and insect larvae are abundant. The Perch can be found in central parts of the United States in fresh water ponds, lakes, streams, or rivers. These fish can be found in freshwater all over the world, and are know to inhabit the Great Lake region, in particular Lake Erie. These fish inhabit bodies of water where vegetation and debris is readily accessible. In the spring when the Perch chooses to spawn, they use this vegetation to conceal their eggs from predators [1]". I found the relevant information I want to contribute from a more reliable source than some of the others (Pringle, Robert M. “Origins of the Nile Perch in Lake Victoria.” OUP Academic, Oxford University Press, 1 Sept. 2005, https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/55/9/780/286121?login=true.). Another contribution I think would be beneficial for the Perch Wikipedia page would be the addition of an image with the internal anatomy of the perch labeled. There is no current image on the page that has all the internal anatomy labeled the image I was thinking about contributed is https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Oste082p_labelled.png. For the caption for the image I was thinking " The above picture is a labeled image of the internal anatomy of the species Perch Perca flavescens. Each letter corresponds to an internal body part, A: gills, B: auricle of the heart, C: ventricle of the heart, D: liver, E: stomach, F: digestive cecum, G: swim bladder, H: intestine, I: testis, and J: urinary bladder".Sunsetblvd13 (talk) 16:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposed Edits
I have the following proposed edits to add to the anatomy section with the proposal of adding an external and internal anatomy subsection:

External Anatomy:

The head consists of the skull (formed from loosely connected bones), eyes, mouth, operculum, gills, and a pair of nostrils (which has no connection to the oral cavity). They have small brush-like teeth across their jaws and on the roof of their mouth. The gills are located under the operculum on both sides of the head and are used to extract oxygen molecules from water and expel carbon dioxide; the gills have gill rakers inside the mouth.

External anatomy can be used to determine the sex of a perch fish in multiple ways. Fish have two posterior openings located on their abdomen, the anal and urogenital. In males, the shape of the urogenital opening is round and larger than the anal opening. In females, the urogenital opening is often a V- or U-shape which is a similar size to the anal opening. Also, Males usually have a more brown-red colored urogenital opening compared to females.

Internal Anatomy:

The esophagus is a flexible tube that goes from the mouth to the stomach. The stomach is connected to the intestine via the pyloric sphincter. The intestines of perch consist of the small intestine and large intestine; the intestines have many pyloric caeca and a spiral value, the small intestine consists of a part called the duodenum. The spleen is located after the stomach and before the spiral value. The spleen is connected to the circulatory system, not part of the digestive tract. The liver is composed of three lobes: one small lobe (includes the gall bladder) and two large lobes. perch have long and narrow kidneys that contain clusters of nephrons that empty into the mesonephric duct. They have a two-chambered heart consisting of four compartments: the sinus venous, one atrium, one ventricle, and conus. Perch fish have a swim bladder that helps control buoyancy or floating within the water, the swim bladder is only found in bony fish. In perch, the duct connecting the swim bladder to the pharynx is closed so air is unable to pass through from the mouth, these fish are called physoclists. Specifically, in perch, the gas bladder can vary from 12% to 25% of Oxygen and 1.4% to 2.9% of Carbon dioxide gas. Perch fish reproductive organs include either a pair of testes (sperm-producing) or a pair of ovaries (egg-producing). — Preceding unsigned comment added by LepidopteraMonarch (talk • contribs) 16:30, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposed Edits
Hi all, I have proposed some edits for the "Species" section of the Perch article. Here is my section with edits included:

Most authorities recognize three species within the perch genus:
 * The European perch (P. fluviatilis) is found primarily in Europe and North America, but a few can also be found in South Africa, and even as far east on the Southern hemisphere as Australia.[1] This species is typically greenish in color with dark vertical bars on its sides with a red or orange coloring in the tips of its fins. The European perch has been successfully introduced in New Zealand and Australia, where it is known as the redfin perch or English perch. In Australia, larger specimens have been bred, but the species rarely grows heavier than 2.7 kg (6 lb).
 * The Balkhash perch (P. schrenkii) is found in Kazakhstan, (in Lake Balkhash and Lake Alakol), Uzbekistan, and China. It is a dark gray/black color on its dorsal side, but the ventral areas of the fish are a lighter silver or even sometimes green color. The Balkhash perch also displays the vertical bars on its sides, similar to the European and yellow perches. In the latter half of the 20th century, the Balkhash perch was introduced into the basins of the Nuru and Chu rivers. The introduction of these fishes to the Nuru and Chu rivers was successful. Because of this success, the population of Balkhash perch in the Balkhash Lake is rarer now. They are similar in size to the yellow and European perches, weighing around 1.5 kg.[2]
 * The yellow perch (P. flavescens), smaller and paler than the European perch, is found in North America. In northern areas, it is sometimes referred to as the lake perch. This species is prized for its food quality and has often been raised in hatcheries and introduced into areas in which it is not native. Yellow perch are almost identical in appearance to European perch, but have a more yellow coloring. These fish typically only reach a size of about 38 cm (15 in) and 1 kg (2 lb 3 oz).

Proposed image to be added to this section:



Figure caption: European perch (Perca fluviatilis), exhibiting its green coloration and red tipped fins, as well as the vertical bars on its sides.

References used for this section:

1. Orban, Elena, et al. “Nutritional Quality and Safety of European Perch (Perca Fluviatilis) from Three Lakes of Central Italy.” Food Chemistry, vol. 100, no. 2, 20 Sept. 2005, pp. 482–490., https://doi.org/10.1016/j.foodchem.2005.09.069.

2. Mamilov, Nadir Shamilevich. "Biology of Balkhash Perch (Perca schrenkii Kessler, 1874)." Biology of Perch (2016): 47-72.

Elephantidae123 (talk) 16:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC) Elephantidae123 (talk) 16:52, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

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