Talk:Percy Grainger/Archive 1

Anti-semitic et al
i have been under the impression (mostly from the Bird bio) that he didn't so much feel anti-semetic as he felt that anglo music should use anglo markings, thus the strict maintaing of non italian based musical markings (louden as opposed to crescendo, etc). it seems that he was more of a 'to each kind there own' brand of racist than a general superiority kind. also, is a more indepth mentioning of his commitment to the folk song as performed by the native (instead of adapting to standard rhythms/markings ala Vaughn-williams) something we should address here?Cgrantmaledy 01:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC) cgrantmaledy

Sado masochism etc
unless there is citation on these claims surely they should be removed?? Kunchan 23:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Probably no cites as his sexuality is common knowledge among Australians. If you check the museum catalogue there are several whips described. The catologue is not comprehensive as the museum has over 250,000 Percy Grainger items. This bio is quite good and mentions the photo's, clothing and number of whips donated to the museum and also briefly his sexuality. I've added it to the external links. Wayne 03:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's actually well-cited in the 1999 John Bird biography; check out page 155 at Google Books. Gordonofcartoon 02:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Folksong recording
I restricted the claim that Grainger was the first to use Edison wax cylinders in recording folksongs, because according to de Val (2000), 357 (whom I've cited in the article), 'Eugenia Lineva had used a cylinder machine in 1897' for folksong collecting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by N p holmes (talk • contribs) 09:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Dates on free music machines?
Does anybody know the dates of the construction of Grainger's free music machines? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.107.240.1 (talk) 22:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Copied from the Comments page
This could easily be a good article if it had in-line cites and less external links.--Grahame (talk) 12:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The above comment was on the comments page. I copied it here.  Magic ♪piano 15:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Composers project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but it could really use some pictures of his machines, and audio of them, if possible. See my detailed review on the comments page. Feel free to leave comments or questions here or on my talk page.  Magic ♪piano 15:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Champion of Saxophone
This article titles him as a "champion of the saxophone" but never expounds on this at all other than that he played it in the Army band. I'm not saying this is not true, because I've heard that he enjoyed the instrument very much. But it'd be nice if there was more information on this. SousaFan88 (talk) 10:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I took out that section as he wrote nothing specifically for the saxophone, although he did make various arrangements for the instrument and also for sax ensemble. But then again, he made a lot of arrangements of most of his popular works for almost every combination you could imagine! Grainger was famous for using newer instruments and he certainly must have enjoyed the saxophone, but to call him a champion of it? That seems slightly far-fetched (he did actually write a polemic 'championing' what he saw as the underrated art form of whistling - and wrote a number of pieces specifically for whisters, such as 'Ye banks and breas' and "even the famous "Country Gardens' was originally conceived for whistling! The article I believe is in the OUP collection of his writings on music). This very over-the-top statement really annoys me and I'm guessing was probably added by an adolescent saxophone player who has an immature bias towards solely their own instrument. However, it would seem Grainger himself did not share this bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.34.55.57 (talk) 23:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Updated "facts"
I have been corresponding with Astrid Britt Krautschneider, the Curator, Collections and Research at the Grainger Museum, University of Melbourne (Website: www.grainger.unimelb.edu.au) who confirmed the following detail:


 * Grainger donated: 73 whips and 8 canes in his museum. And it is a blood-stained shirt, not a pair of shorts. Which can be confirmed directly from the Grainger Museum collection, University of Melbourne.

She also mentioned that this statement is incorrect: ''When Grainger was aged 11, his father left to visit London and Rose took Percy to live with her parents in Adelaide. He returned to Adelaide but did not rejoin his family.''

She writes:


 * Grainger’s father John, who did suffer from syphilis, took a sea voyage in 1890 (which puts Grainger’s age at 8 or 9) in order to improve his health. This coincided with the end of his marriage. He was never to live with his wife and child again.  Rose and Percy remained in Melbourne – of course the two of them visited Rose’s family in Adelaide from time to time but they did not move back there.

I will put in the changes. Ccrashh (talk) 12:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

What instruments did he play, and when?
The article refers to early public performances but doesn't specify what instrument, although piano seems likely. Later, with no reference to any intervening study of winds, he enters an Army Band as an oboist and saxophonist. It would be nice to have some idea when or how he learned these three instruments--or if he played others. By the way, I smiled at "His use of chance music in 1912 predated John Cage by forty years." I refrained from adding "...but postdated Mozart by about 130 years." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccerf (talk • contribs) 13:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Completion of Museum restoration
...this is indicated by the Architects' site to have been completed in 1980, but today, in 2010, the University's site seems to indicate that renovations/conservation is still underway. Can anyone assist in clarifying this?

Maceis (talk) 06:34, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Article expansion and upgrade
The article needs some serious treatment, to rescue it from the proliferation of cleanup banners and to bring it to a standard worthy of this unusually interesting composer. I have started this process by splitting off the list of works into a subarticle. Over the next few weeks there will be major additions to the text and images of the main article. Comments from interested editors will be welcome, as the expansion proceeds. Brianboulton (talk) 23:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice. If you're interested in making the works list good, the best source is, AFAIK,The New Percy Grainger Companion (ISBN 9781843836018). But I see the list is already nicely comprehensive with all the various versions listed. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk)
 * The list is an ongoing project, and will be updated as new information arises. It will never be possible to list every version of every work – for example, Grainger used to prepare "novelty" versions for individual performances – but it should be comprehensive at least as far as published works are concerned. Brianboulton (talk) 08:33, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I have replaced the former "References required" banners with an "Under construction" banner at the head of the article. This should remain in place until the expansion is completed. Brianboulton (talk) 16:49, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note

Possible New External Link
I moderate the Culture Victoria website and considered adding a link to our material relating to the architect John Harry Grainger (Percy’s father). Is that appropriate since there is no Wikipedia article on him as such? http://www.cv.vic.gov.au/stories/john-harry-grainger/. Let me know what you think.Eleworth (talk) 06:06, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I intend to do a short article on John Grainger when I have brought Percy up to scratch. Your link is an obvious source - I have it listed somewhere, but thanks for the tip. (If you want to do the John article, that's fine by me). Brianboulton (talk) 08:56, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

"Grainger Studies" - new open access peer review journal
I've just stumbled upon Grainger Studies: An Interdisciplinary Journal, a new open access peer review journal to be published annually by the University of Melbourne Library (the 2011 issue is already online). This editorial initiative seemed to me to be important enough to warrant inclusion among the External Links. MistyMorn (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Piano roll prom: legacy or recordings?
I've supplied a citation that provides some detail on Percy's posthumous appearance at the Proms. The related sentence currently comes at the end of the 'Legacy'. But nice as it must have been to for the prommers hear Percy play, even by proxy, I find it hard to see this event as the culmination of the man's legacy! I was wondering whether the sentence would be better located elsewhere? While writing the last sentence, the thought occurs to me that the Proms sentence might already fit under 'Recordings', given that a piano roll is, by definition, a recording format. Since that solution would have the advantage of grouping together the information about the Duo Art method and the reproduction machinery, I think I'll go back and make the move. But feel free to revert or discuss the issue. Regards --MistyMorn (talk) 09:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Atheism
His atheist belief that he would only survive through his legacy is documented and explains the obsession with his own museum. I'm surprised this fact was excluded from the article. Alatari (talk) 10:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * RE "...and explains the obsession with his own museum."
 * I have a query here: Who's interpretation is this? The corresponding sentence in the article (ie "From this belief he took action to ensure that survival with the establishment of his own museum to Australia") is currently unreferenced. One could object that most atheists do not appear particularly anxious to set up their own personal museums, and a believer may have analogous projects. Irrespective of the plausibility of the interpretation, prefacing the paragraph dedicated to the Grainger Museum in this way raises concerns regarding undue emphasis. Unless, of course, that's what Grainger himself proclaimed specifically in the context of his museum project.
 * Just my 2 obols--MistyMorn (talk) 17:55, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

This is from the source:

I want to get the meaning of this sentence A life-long atheist, he had every basis for belief that whatever of himself would endure would be found in his work. without plagiarizing. His work would include the museum and all it's contents and as an atheist his enduring survival was that work. So how would you fit that interpretation into the article? Alatari (talk) 02:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that this is the interpretation of a single commentator, and that it is far from being self-evident fact. As I've argued above, on logical grounds 'being an atheist' is, in itself, neither a sufficient nor a necessary condition for wanting to build one's very own museum. Clearly, it could have been a contributing factor. However, alternative/additional explanations are possible, perhaps somehow linked to Grainger's eccentricities and a belief that his artistic creativity was not restricted to his music (cf ). So while the interpretation you are supporting may be notable, I think we should avoid giving it undue prominence in the context of an NPOV biography.
 * Just my 2 systematically skeptical cents. Regards, --MistyMorn (talk) 14:04, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Your edit is fine with me. Atheist wasn't mentioned at all before. Alatari (talk) 21:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

BDSM people
As its well documented, ive added him to this category.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Full name
Some sources I saw say his full name was "George Percy Grainger", others "Percy Aldridge Grainger". Can someone straighten this out? Wondering simply, -- Infrogmation 18:40 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * He was born George Percy Grainger but later changed his name to Percy Aldridge Grainger in October of 1911 concurrently with the the first publication of his compositions. Aldridge is his mother's maiden name.

--Melias2083 06:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Grove V (1954) calls him Percy Aldridge Grainger, but Slonimsky (1998) calls him George Percy Aldridge Grainger. If the latter's correct (and I usually trust Slonimsky), that would mean he added Aldridge to his existing name but didn't remove any part of it.  JackofOz 07:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, he never used George but preferred Percy; however, the above suggests that George always remained part of his legal name. JackofOz 08:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Revisited
The facts seems to be as follows:


 * His name registered at birth was George Percy Grainger, but from a very early age he was generally known by his middle name Percy - Percy Grainger
 * In 1911-12 he assumed the professional name Percy Aldridge Grainger, and that is the name under which his music was published thereafter
 * Despite what I said above, at no time in his life did he ever use the name George Percy Aldridge Grainger.

I'm editing the article accordingly. --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:59, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

TFAR
Today's featured article/requests/Percy Grainger --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 02:38, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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LGBT?
Percy Grainger was certainly into BDSM, but I can see nothing in the article that refers to him as being gay, bisexual or trans*. So why is he tagged and listed as a LGBT composer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.209.88 (talk) 11:29, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Same question occurred to me. As no answer has been forthcoming, I have removed it. William Avery (talk) 10:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Recent change of the lead image and infobox text
As predicted, the rather inane infobox that we currently have (that tells us nothing that the first few lines of the lead section doesn't, by the way) is being screwed around with despite their being hidden text telling people specificaly not to do so. Also, the lead image, and without no consensus whatsoever, is being changed by the same drive-by editor. I believe that such an edit goes against the version that passed FAC and should therefore be discussed here first where a consensus should be sought.  Cassianto Talk   09:38, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you mean ? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:25, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I do, yes. Sorry, what's your point?   Cassianto Talk   12:31, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * It looks to me that the editor who nominated the article for FA chose this way, and it was stable for years. I may have misunderstood what you meant by "currently", - you wrote that possibly before reverting? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:39, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * OK Cass-for the record-it went to FAC like this

My guess is that it may be under consideration for TFA and thus "couldn't" be allowed on the FP without the box. ;) We hope (talk) 12:48, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Repeating: it was added in 2013, has nothing to do with TFA considerations for 2017 or (rather) later. It was peaceful until today, and I see no reason to change that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:09, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Change what? I'm not here on an infobox crusade. If you want to help dumb down the article to a load of lazy arsed readers, that's up to you.  Unlike you, Gerda, or your sheep that follow you around, I'm not here to enforce my POV and will respect Brian's wishes to include an idiot box.  I'm here as Richard Arthur Norton swapped the images and fucked around with the fields, despite there being a respectful hidden message not to do so.   Cassianto Talk   14:29, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * This pd box looks modeled after my 2013 suggestions for Verdi and Beethoven in the infoboxes case. Do you think the one who created it - as an experiment, because Beethoven and Verdi were not yet in the articles then - it is a sheep following me around? - In 2017, I am interested in filling red links, and followers are welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I really cannot be bothered to work out what you've just said. The image seems to have stayed and that's all I'm concerned about.   Cassianto Talk   09:59, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Hope this remains the case re: peaceful. We hope (talk) 14:20, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * As a stalker I had a look to see what changes you were talking about, and have removed the 'unknown parameter "italic title"' that was flagging as an error. It does not affect the display, being simply ignored. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:37, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank . Yes there was little point to that field, but indicative of the kind of crap that gets added when there is an existing box of little intellect. I don't quite see what's "experimental" about the box either, as the hidden text suggests, but ours is not to reason why, I suppose.   Cassianto Talk   12:43, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * It was experimental when it was added. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:04, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Curious. Although I still don't know what "experimental" is supposed to mean.  Cassianto Talk   14:30, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I understood it as a compromise. Perhaps ask Brianboulton. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:30, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * As this thread is about the unauthorised changes of the lead image and the fields, and not about the infobox itself, I don't feel as if I need to.  Cassianto Talk   16:22, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

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Trial basis
In 2013, this person was described in an on a trial basis. It was more or less stable until today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Edit wars
There are at least two overlapping edit wars going on the article page today. Everybody involved needs to stop warring and discuss here on the talk page. Remember, it is edit warring even you don't exceed three reverts in 24 hours. - Donald Albury 17:23, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I did ask that the edit wars stop and changes be discussed back here, and yet the infobox image descriptor was reverted again. I will also note that the article clearly states that Grainger joined the United States Army during World War I as a bandsman, became a naturalized United States citizen while in the U.S. Army, and maintained his residence in the U.S. until his death, so the categorization of him as 'American' is quite appropriate. - Donald Albury 21:51, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Recent addition
Like several other admirers of the main author of the present article, the late and painfully missed, I keep an eye on his FAs. The recent addition of a para on Grainger's vegetarianism seems to me proportionate. Grainger was so odd in so many ways that vegetarianism and teetotalism slip into the narrative smoothly enough. Do others who keep an eye on this page concur?  Tim riley  talk   17:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There are very many references to his vegetarianism that could be added to further expand on this section. One paper published about his vegetarian eating by the University of Melbourne in 1998 that includes essays and letters is this: . BrikDuk (talk) 17:50, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Quite. He was clearly a very odd person, but unless you propose an addition I think the present addition is proportionate and reasonable.  Tim riley  talk   17:59, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree; I think the new section fits into the article well, and it seems to be appropriately written and referenced. Noahfgodard (talk) 18:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Good! Thank you both for your thoughts on this. We can leave the text as it is, I think, if we are all agreed.  Tim riley  talk   20:17, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Australian?
Someone (208.187.9.24) replaced "Australian-born" by "Australian" and removed the English references in the categories. Since Grainger moved to England when he was 13 and to the US when he was 32, I think the previous designations were fair and in fact we should add the American category (the other day the bass trombonist for my orchestra told me he had played under Grainger in a Massachusetts youth orchestra, and he had thought of PG as American). David Brooks 23:59, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Well I did an assignment for year 10 and he was on our list as a choice of an Australian Composer and I entered in the Australian Composer section for a music esteidford with one of his pieces

June 2006

Just to quantify this a little - adding evidence of his visits to Australia. Three visits that amount to several months.Tradimus (talk) 14:56, 14 January 2019 (UTC) Is there any evidence that Grainger identified as Australian? The article states Grainger felt Australia rejected him - there is evidence to suggest this is true.
 * 1927 for two concerts
 * 1934
 * 1948 to open his Grainger museum

As the article opens with the statement that PG "was an Australian-born composer, arranger and pianist who lived in the United States from 1914 and became an American citizen in 1918" I'm not sure of the import of the above question.  Tim riley  talk   17:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that the lead should say "Australian-born" in any case, but for the sake of answering the question posed, it does seem that Grainger was proud of his Australian origin. See the program note in the score of Colonial Song, for example. Sources used in the article's Legacy section support this, as well. Noahfgodard (talk) 17:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

It is as well to remember that Percy Grainger's parentage was British, and his birth in British soverign territory, as the colonies were not federated into an Australian nation until after his birth. The program note in the score of Colonial Song|citation above alludes to such a 'provincial' or back-water impression, without stipulating any fondness for it. Perhaps the footnote is a device to authenticate and advertise the work as an curio or other-worldly souvenir. The main source from the Legacy section by Roger Covell is a book entitled with a question as to Graingers naionality. One seldom hears the term 'Australian-American', as in Pat Sullivan (film producer), but I argue this is appropriate. Tradimus (talk) 02:15, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The present wording of the opening is factually correct and gives the reader the necessary information about Grainger's place of birth and later residence and nationality. I would not support an attempt to alter it. If a consensus arises for such a change, fair enough of course, but otherwise leave the wording alone is my view. It ain't broke, so don't fix it.  Tim riley  talk   08:39, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Percy Grainger as a musicologist
Why anyone would disagree that Percy Grainger was a musicologist is baffling to me. Several sources directly describe him as one, and through his work as an educator and folklorist, it's easy to see why. As mentioned in the sources below, one of Grainger's most important contributions to the field of ethnomusicology was through his use of technology (namely the phonograph) to collect folk music.


 * https://csuepress.columbusstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1240&context=theses_dissertations
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Commonsense_View_of_All_Music/Awo4AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Grainger_the_Modernist/Iau1CwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Percy+Grainger+musicology&printsec=frontcover
 * https://grainger.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/2036659/PG_and_Folk_Music_catalogue.pdf
 * https://www.jstor.org/stable/25654172

Why? I Ask (talk) 09:36, 30 January 2022 (UTC)


 * It depends on how to define a musicologist, but I am with you in this question. A musicologist isn't only someone who held a professor position with the description, or published scientific standard works. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:40, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I want to avoid having a metadiscussion on what musicology is, but I definitely think Grainger fits inside the "studied music" boundary. Why? I Ask (talk) 09:43, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I disagree – PG was no more a musicologist than other collectors of folk music like Bartók or RVW – but I don't feel strongly about it, as I don't think most readers ever look at article categories, which are apt to be footling. Some well-meaning soul added "Military personnel from Middlesex" to Noël Coward's article the other day. Technically correct, as he served briefly in the army in WWI, but not frightfully helpful, it seems to me. In short, I shall not press my objection here.  Tim riley  talk   11:01, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Bartók's lede literally says that he was a founder of ethnomusicology. Why? I Ask (talk) 11:51, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I know. So does Grove. Not the term I'd choose, preferring the OED's take on the meaning, but to each his own.  Tim riley  talk   13:38, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough; I completely disagree, but fair enough. Why? I Ask (talk) 13:40, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Well is it really defining enough for a category? The lead doesn't call him one, neither does Grove and the article currently has no source calling him one. Yes he was a folk-song collector (oxford reference calls him that), but that does not automatically make someone a musicologist/ethnomusicologist. In this case, I think the "folk-song collectors" categories suffice. If Grove calls Bartok an ethnomusicologist, but not Grainger, then we should follow suit. Aza24 (talk) 23:18, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If it's not too contentious, then could I not add a mention of Grainger's work in musicology? If there are several reputable sources mentioning his involvement in the field, I don't believe it'd be too out of place. Personally, I think that people who collect folk songs, study them, and catalogue them are ethnomusicologists. But Wikipedia is not based on my opinions, it's based on references. (Also, I don't really think Grove is the be all end all.) Why? I Ask (talk) 02:04, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Aza24 rings the bell and wins a cigar or coconut according to choice, though in reality do any of the readers for whom we are writing ever look at the categories? A few dedicated editors get very excited about them, but as long as something added to categories is not egregiously idiotic or plain inaccurate I'm inclined to ignore it, though I defer to those taking a more purist view.  Tim riley  talk   23:46, 30 January 2022 (UTC)