Talk:Periyar/Archive 3

Was he Kannadiga?
I knew EVR always as a person from Telugu family and not as Kannadiga. This article although accepts that he is from a Telugu Naikar family, it says that his mother tongue is Kannada. Is there any reference to that? Thanks ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε†αLҝ 23:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Reference has been provided. He was from a family of Kannada speakers from Erode in Tamil Nadu. Erode district adjoins Karnataka. - Parthi talk/contribs 22:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Parthi. I saw that yesterday and even the edit war tried by a fanatic. Anyways thanks for the reference. ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε†αLҝ 09:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed sentence
I've removed this sentence:

"Growing anti-Brahmanism in Chennai provided a rationale for polarization of the lower castes in the DMK movement."

I'm not certain what this sentence is supposed to convey - is 'polarization' being used to infer 'radicalization'? Addhoc 18:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Name
I have never heard of this person, so I am certainly not any source as to what his name should be, but edit warring over it should stop, now, and discussion done here. Corvus cornix 21:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? And who is edit warring about his name?  Sarvagnya 21:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * One of the users who has reverted has inserted some rather crude anti-Brahmin canards in the article. That same user is changing his given name to periyar. Peri + ayyar = Great noble. Its a nickname, not his name. Baka man  21:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This, and several reverts like it. Corvus cornix 21:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That was not only about a name. As Bakaman explains above, it was about reverting to a more stable, less crufty version to which the article was rolled back recently.  Details can be found in the sections above.  And in any case, I dont think I'm required to AGF with 'obvious sockpuppets' like gabbaelephant or whatever.  Sarvagnya 22:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Tamil Nadu and Indian government call him Periyar lins added.Why do you object ? 81.208.163.214 23:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Because the tamil nadu government doesnt run wikipedia. Periyar is an honorific and on wikipedia, we dont use honorifics.  Sarvagnya 00:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to point out that the entry on Mahatma Gandhi where Mahatma is honorific and not his actual name. Thanks ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε†αLҝ 06:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As do Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Sree Sree Shivakumara Swamiji, etc... Parthi talk/contribs 06:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The same is true of all actors Jayalalitha is Komanavalli ,Rajnikant is shivaji Rao and 99% of the Actors have not changed there names legally.193.61.107.150 09:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The article should be E.V. Ramasami Naicker, but it should mention that he was widely known as Periyar. It is a fact. My personal opinion apart, the article should reflect the reality. However I am totally against all the crufty glorification of him which some want to include. I won't support that. I must also warn Sarvagnya that deleting the fact that this man belonged to a family of Kannada speaker is tantamount to vandalism. Thanks Parthi talk/contribs 03:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Socks
We seem to have a sock problem as evidenced with and. The user is filing erroneous 3RR reports (1 2) and such. Baka man  00:45, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Balija Naidu
EVR was Balija Naidu. Their mother tongue is Telugu.Kumarrao 11:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but do you have reference to back this claim? ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε†αLҝ 11:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

---I am trying to search for one. It is a common knowledge in A.P., that Periyar was Balija Nayudu. I know this needs to be supported by a citation. Kumarrao 09:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for protection
A request has been made on WP:RPP to protect this page due to edit warring. I see the beginnings of an edit war but I also think there is the possibility that the dispute can be resolved without protecting the page. Please make an effort to do so or the page will wind up getting protected.

--Richard 07:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

POV is only displayed hence asked for protection and India expert
Example this is an opinion 1:the founder of the radical and sectarian denomination of the Dravidian Nationalist movement, innocuously called the Self-Respect Movement in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu.

IS a POV with no citations. Role in Vaikom Satyagraha is getting reverted through cited with good sources.

Affiliation with the Indian National Congress Again there is no citation and that he is left the movement because of the Aryan invasion theory again is an opinion does not say a word of it. Just to state a few. Similarly Justice Party ruled Madras for a long period from 1921-37 and only lost then to say they had little popular support is POV.

and so on Helloarise 11:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree that page protection would help a lot with this article. Cheers! <b style="color:orange;">ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε</b><i style="color:green;">†αLҝ</i> 13:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Why do you think that page protection would help? Would you feel this way if the version of the page that was protected was one that you disagreed with strongly? --Richard 17:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Talk:E._V._Ramasami_Naicker/A is a version that, , and all other bondafide editors accepted. The only problem is with  and his socks. Baka  man  16:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The shorter and sourced version of the lead was introduced by me in April. If the longer version is reintroduced, could I suggest that sources are included? Thanks, Addhoc 16:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I accept addhoc's shorter intro. Baka man  17:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC) . Much like Hitler's intro has his dislikes in his intro so should this one. Baka  man  17:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Bakasuprman
Please do not engage in edit warring as you are doing.Please do not make me escalate the issue.Already the sock of Hkelker  that Rumpelstiltskin223 did similar edits like you in this page.You guys will accept edits only if it is to your liking.Sorry to say that edits are accepted on basis of citations not basis of personal views like the one Addhoc secondly  and all users do not support you and your edit warring.You have been reported several times and been blocked. Look Venu62 put with references that Periyar's mother tongue is Kannada but reverts as also in the Carnatic music page.Sorry to say if you do not edits which are cited I will forced to escalate the matter.Please no more sock or meat of Hkelkar Adyarboy 18:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Simply no Good references
All others seem to support Periyar's viewpoint .Please go through them Baka before speaking All the references against Periyar are not online and clearly debatable The other is blog against Periyar by Rajeev.Adyarboy 18:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sara Dickey,"The politics of adulation in South India", Journal of Asian Studies Vol 52 No 2 (1993) pages 340-372
 * ^ a b Lloyd I. Rudolph Urban Life and Populist Radicalism: Dravidian Politics in Madras The Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 20, No. 3 (May, 1961), pp. 283-297
 * ^ Lloyd I. Rudolph and Suzanne Hoeber Rudolph, The Modernity of Tradition: political development in India P78,University of Chicago Press 1969, ISBN:0226731375
 * ^ Singh, Yogendra,Modernization of Indian Tradition: (A Systemic Study of Social Change),Oriental Press 1974 page 167
 * ^ C. J. Fuller,The Renewal of the Priesthood: Modernity and Traditionalism in a South Indian Temple P117, Princeton University Press 2003 ISBN:0691116571
 * ^ a b c d e f Bergunder M, Contested Past: Anti-Brahmanical and Hindu nationalist reconstructions of Indian prehistory,Historiographia Linguistica, Volume 31, Number 1, 2004, pp. 59-104(46


 * I have some concerns after going through some of the peer reviewed papers quoted. FYI I have access to most of the journals through Athens login.

Let me make my stance clear that am not throwing allegations of dubious citation, but requesting a clarification. Thanks <b style="color:orange;">ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε</b><i style="color:green;">†αLҝ</i> 20:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Starting with Sara Dickey’s 1993 paper. To start with the right title of the article is The Politics of Adulation: Cinema and the Production of Politicians in South India which is quoted wrong. It is a 32 pages long article which talks about votes mind set and quotes various examples including NTR, MGR and even touches a bit of North Indian politicians of Sunil Dutt and co. The word ELITE is referred to the previous sentence in which it denotes socioeconomic class and not elite caste as it would mean from the phrase used in the article, since the preceding sentence talks about Aryan race.
 * Now coming to Rudolph’s paper, I wasn’t able to find where he talks about mass-migration of Brahmins. I may have missed it. Can someone point where it is mentioned please?
 * Now the book Modernization of Indian Tradition, is of concern too since the page quoted (although not online) is obvious from the table of contents (which is online) talks about Gandhi. I do not want to comment on this for now. Will go find it in the library before I say further. But a clarification would be appreciated.
 * Its kind of intriguing to find that the pages quoted once again are part of pages missing in the online version in the reference from the book The Renewal of the Priesthood: Modernity and Traditionalism in a South Indian Temple.

Deferring to the two admins who are active editors of this page
I notice that there are two admins (User:Blnguyen and User:Commander Keane) who are actively editing this page. Presumably they have a better grasp of the issues on this page and so I will defer to them any decisions regarding protection of this page. If you feel that these two editors are not editing in accordance with Wikipedia policies, feel free to leave me a message or post a message on the Administrator's noticeboard. --Richard 14:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't really have an interest in this article, I just fixed a cut and paste move. There does seem to be disagreement on where Periyar should redirect. Someone thinks it should go here (E. V. Ramasami Naicker), someone thinks to Periyar River and the other option (currently used) is that it goes to a disambiguation page. Probably the disambiguation page is the best option. A Requested moves discussion could be used to gauge consensus if someone wants to move stuff around again.--Commander Keane 04:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Title of this article
Why is the title of this article E. V. Ramasami Naicker when the lead says that his name was Ramaswami or Ramaswamy?

E. V. Ramaswami Naicker redirects here.

I think this title should be titled E. V. Ramaswami Naicker but I am not at all knowledgeable about this topic. Am I wrong?

If I am wrong, then the lead should be changed to reflect the title.

--Richard 18:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

His name is E.V.Ramaswamy Naicker. For example, look at his biography by Anita Diehl; it is titled E.V.Ramaswamy Naicker http://www.amazon.com/Ramaswami-Naicker-Periyar-personality-contemporary-international/dp/9124276456/ref=sr_1_2/102-0935012-6748964?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187077679&sr=1-2


 * Sami is the Tamil word for Sanskrit Swami.

Balija Naidu
EVR was a Telugu Balija Naidu:

(http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0970-0293(199105%2F06)19%3A5%2F6%3C24%3AWQITDM%3E2.0.CO%3B2-I).

(http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0970-0293(199805%2F06)26%3A5%2F6%3C61%3ATSACNG%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N)

Unprotection is needed to make suitable changes.Kumarrao 08:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * With the links provided I think that is a suitable conclusion. Baka man  16:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It is common knowledge that he was of Telugu ancestry - except to some nitpicking trolls. It seems even a recent movie made on ramaswamy portrays him as a telugu.  I also had seen it on The Hindu that he was telugu.  Will fish that out when I find time.  Sarvagnya 17:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Neither of the JSTOR links provided could be verified to see whether they actually support the claim that he was a Telugu. Where as the references we had provided clearly state that he was born in a Kannada speaking family. Parthi talk/contribs 22:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

More references: Parthi talk/contribs 22:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Modern Rationalist Sept 2004- Editorial "The elders of his caste, namely, Kannada Balija, excommunicated his family. "
 * Anita Diehl, E. V. Ramaswami Naicker-Periyar: A study of the influence of a personality in contemporary South India (Lund studies in international history), Esselte Studium (1977) - "E.V.Ramaswami Naicker (Periyar) was born on September 17th 1879 in Erode, Tamil Nadu, into a wealthy and orthodox Kannada Naidu family."
 * The JSTOR papers mention EVR as Balija Naidu and citations provided by Parthi once again confirm that he was indeed a Kannada Baliji Naidu. I think these are enough evidence for his mother tongue. I feel the message (doesn't matter if you are pro or agaisnt them) that he propagated needs to be concentrated more, unless someone comes with more reliable references and no more POVs. <b style="color:orange;">ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε</b><i style="color:green;">†αLҝ</i> 23:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Mother tongue Kannada
Please see below they say they his mother tongue is Kannada http://www.buddhiwadi.org/periyar.htm|publisher= buddhiwadi.org Several out of his biographers describe Kannada as his mother tongue.Erode his birth place is near Karnataka.Adyarboy 17:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think as per the mother tongue is considered it has been made quite clear even earlier (acctually I had raised concerns of him not being a Kannada) that although he is from a Telugu origin family his mother tongue is Kannada. If this is too confusing Sarvagnya just needs to go towards the electronic city to the village called Yarandahalli to find Reddies of Telugu origin but with Kannada as mother tongue. <b style="color:orange;">ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε</b><i style="color:green;">†αLҝ</i> 19:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Moreover note that the peer reviewed papers provided on authenticity of him being Balija Naidu just states him as Balija Naidu and not as Telugu Balija Naidu. Thanks. <b style="color:orange;">ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε</b><i style="color:green;">†αLҝ</i> 19:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Buddhiwadi is not a reliable source. Baka man  01:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How do you say that? See this for information on the website. What makes a source reliable? Anyway I have provided more evidence above. Parthi talk/contribs 01:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it is, I did not see the trustees. However, I hardly care if he was Kannada, Telugu, or Chinese. The real problems are fancruft, glorification, and anti-Brahmin rhetoric being inserted in here by IP users and SPA's. Baka man  01:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Balija Naidus are Telugu people who speak Telugu. Balija Naidus domiciled in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu speak Telugu at home. Periyar is Telugu Naicker. This is well-known. He belonged to Balija caste. This info is now made available. I do not see any contradictions. Kumarrao 08:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * All Balija Naidus don't have Telugu as their Mother Tongue. You are quoting as what is according to you a common knowledge, but in acctual sense its not. You can check out Kannada matrimonial website with Balija Naidus with Kannada as mother tongue advertising (I am not giving any specific profile links here, since it seems in appropriate). Cheers <b style="color:orange;">ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε</b><i style="color:green;">†αLҝ</i> 13:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All Balija Naidus are of Telugu ancestry. They may have settled all over the place and become naturalised Kannadigas in Ktaka and that is what they mention in matrimony sites.  Nobody mentions what their long lost ancestors spoke in the mother tongue field.  For that matter you will find Tamil Naidus too on the same sites!  And that is what evr was.  He was a naturalised Tamil who(or maybe the previous generation in his family) spoke Telugu at home.  Even the recent movie underwritten by the Karunanidhis clearly shows his family speaking Telugu.  I've asked Tamil friends and they say its common knowledge in TN that Naickers are of Telugu ancestry and only a biased nationalist Tamil cabal headed by nitpicking trolls can be blind to this fact.  Sarvagnya 21:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed, he may be of Telugu ancestory, but his mother tongue is Kannada as per the citations provided and if you have proof otherwise please provide citations. Cheers <b style="color:orange;">ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε</b><i style="color:green;">†αLҝ</i> 22:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Anti-semitic
Is there any evidence that EVR was anti-semitic? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.207.47.60 (talk • contribs) 10:00, 8 Jul 2007 (UTC)

EVR was not an anti-semite simply because he was too plugged into Tamil caste politics and wholly obsessed with it to bother about international trends like anti-semiticism. He had no knowledge of Jews to take any opinion on them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.194.3.105 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 16 Aug 2007 (UTC)

Misleading Bibiography
Bibiography deliberately gives wrong name for the book, by dropping 'Naicker' after EVR's name. The correct book name is E. V. Ramaswami Naicker-Periyar: A study of the influence of a personality in contemporary South India (Lund studies in international history) (Unknown Binding) by Anita Diehl

http://www.amazon.com/Ramaswami-Naicker-Periyar-personality-contemporary-international/dp/9124276456/ref=sr_1_2/102-0935012-6748964?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187077679&sr=1-2

No doubt those of his followers who argue 'Naicker' should be dropped from his name do not mind lying about book names (and his name).

Spelling error
F-402 04:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 02:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

We need to take the article to mediation
It has been edit protected several times.I believe a edit war will start if protection is removed.Even the name is dispute.Indian and Tamil Nadu governments refer him as Periyar and not E. V. Ramasami Naicker.Further the name is spelt in different ways and spellingPharaoh of the Wizards 03:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Dravidian civilizations
Wiki Raja 09:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)