Talk:Periyar/Archive 8

Fact
If some people brag about not speaking a particulr language for many years forgetting their roots (obviously for various reasons) it is ok and if it is their prime  prerogative it is still ok. But what is not ok is the stale argument by some people that since Periar spoke Kannada he should have  been  a Kannadiga. I had read some article long time ago which stated that  Periar was fluent not only in kannada and Tamil but also in Telugu. The article stated  that in Vijayawada, Andhra Pradesh Ramaswami Naidu conversed with GORA(Goparaju Ramachandra Rao) quite fluently in Telugu. It is a well known fact that Ramaswami Naicker belongs to Balija Naidu caste. Balija Naidu caste is a Telugu caste and hence his mother tongue should be Telugu and he should be of Telugu origin. He might have lived in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu; which doesn't prevent him from being a Telugu man. Though the great saint Thyagaraja was born and had lived in Tamil Nadu all his life his ancestry still remained a Telugu jati. In the same token Periar belonged to Telugu jati no matter where he lived. I inserted a quote from  Many Ramayanas (by Paula Richman) in the above posting  as to the origin of Periar. I believe this information would be relevant to the wikipedia and it would put a stop to the unnecessary bickering going on forever regarding the roots of Erode Venkata Ramaswami Naidu of Telugu Jati. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.57.81.121 (talk) 09:53, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Periyar was Balija Naidu. There s no ambiguity about it.Kumarrao (talk) 07:26, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Periyar was Balija Naidu. There is no ambiguity about it. That can be added about his caste. But on his language, we go by what he says - he says he is a Kannadiga and thats what that should be in the article. --Sodabottle (talk) 07:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I reckon this argument on his mother tongue being Telugu has been going on for years now. In absence of sources that would override the vast pool of references that claim him being Kannadiga it is rather futile to go on with this argument. Nevertheless, I do not see an end to this discussion and hence it would be better to move discussion on this specific issue to a subpage (and leave a notice with the talk page banners) so that the main discussion page can be used for other purposes. Wiki San Roze†αLҝ 14:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It was held by the UN's official branch of the UNESCO Forum. It is a well known fact that the Chief Minister of the state of Tamil Nadu gave the award to Father Periyar on behalf of the UN's UNESCO at the Rajaji Hall in Chennai on 27.6.1970.

When Periyar, The Prophet of the New Age; The Socrates of South East Asia; The Social Reform Movement of the Father; And the Arch Enemy of Ignorance, Superstitions, Meaningless Customs and Base Manners ” கார்த்திகேயன் பழனிவேலு (talk) 11:08, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 June 2020Unesco Award
கார்த்திகேயன் பழனிவேலு (talk) 11:12, 16 June 2020 (UTC) It was held by the UN's official branch of the UNESCO Forum. It is a well known fact that the Chief Minister of the state of Tamil Nadu gave the award to Father Periyar on behalf of the UN's UNESCO at the Rajaji Hall in Chennai on 27.6.1970.

When Periyar, The Prophet of the New Age; The Socrates of South East Asia; The Social Reform Movement of the Father; And the Arch Enemy of Ignorance, Superstitions, Meaningless Customs and Base Manners ”
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 14:12, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Tamil language and writing
The article contains the following text which appears to be wrong. "However, Anita Diehl explains that Periyar made these remarks on Tamil because it had no respective feminine verbal forms.[33]". Periyar himself has given reasons why he called Tamil as barbaric language. Periyar said Tamil does not have the scientific development and text like English. He went on to say that The English have invented telephone, they have formula to calculate distnace to moon & travel time to moon and raised question "If Tamil is so great why you don't have any such useful things in Tamil?". He ends by saying, "Tamil Sangam literature has lots of superstitions that is nothing less than the Aryan thoughts". By Aryan thoughts he means Sanskrit text such as Puranas, Ithihasas, smruthis, etc.,. In these references, one may note following snippets among many explanations, 1)"Tamil is a language that is not even useful for begging". 2)"Periyar was of the strong view that Tamil is a barbarian language because it never grew to the needs of the present day".--Mageshsai (talk) 18:33, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 July 2020
In 1970, he was honored by UNESCO with an award, the citation of which said: Periyar, the Prophet of a New Age, Socrates of South Asia, Father of the Social Reform Movement, Arch Enemy of ignorance, superstitions, meaningless customs, and base manners.” This award was presented to him by the then Union Education Minister Triguna Sen and former Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu M Karunanidhi in Madras (Chennai).

This award was handed over to E V Ramasamy by the organization that provided such an award was called ‘UNESCO MANRAM’



Duraimurugan arjunan (talk) 21:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Naypta ☺ &#124; ✉ talk page &#124; 21:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2020
The article states that Periyar toured Russia between 1929 and 1932, while providing the link for the modern day Russian Federation. This link needs to be replaced by the link to the wikipedia page of the USSR which was what Russia was called at the time. LordKrrish23 (talk) 05:44, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks done changed it to Soviet Union.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:18, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 4 September 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  01:08, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Periyar E. V. Ramasamy → E. V. Ramasamy – Periyar was not his given name, but an epithet. But if WP:COMMONNAME must apply, this article should either be "Periyar" or "E. V. Ramasamy". In fact, he did not get the Periyar epithet until 1938. Kailash29792 (talk)  15:46, 4 September 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:45, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose as per WP:COMMONNAME he is kwown as Periyar since 1938 when he became the leader of the Justice Party  .Even Universites,roads have been named after him in Tamil Nadu ex Periyar University and is the most commmon name.Hence Periyar E. V. Ramasamy is okay .Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:07, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , it appears you are voting for the article to be retitled to the mononym "Periyar". If that is so, please change your vote. Kailash29792 (talk)  06:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not voting for a change to Periyar just want to retain current name Periyar E. V. Ramasamy and the common name is Periyar E. V. Ramasamy .Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 11:53, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose for similar reasons as explained above. "Periyar" is how he is most commonly referred to in popular media, press etc, therefore either we should stick with the current title or move the article completely to "Periyar," either option is fine with me, but the article title should not be "E. V. Ramaswamy". C1MM (talk) 15:10, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2020
His Name is E.V Ramasamy Naicker. Please add his surname Naidu. Jeyaseelan347 (talk) 18:11, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * According to what source? – Thjarkur (talk) 18:22, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 19 September 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to Periyar per policy-based evidence:
 * Pageviews demonstrate that Periyar E. V. Ramasamy is the WP:Primary topic for the title by both criteria (most sought after, by an order of magnitude, and most historically significant)
 * The opposing arguments that there are other important things named "Periyar" are not well supported by evidence
 * The argument that the subject is best known as "Periyar" only in Tamil Nadu might or might not be true, but then, readers from Tamil Nadu are equally important as other en.wp readers.
 * The argument that the title means "elder" in Tamil is not very relevant, since it's only Wikipedia articles/topics that count in determining primary topic. No such user (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

– The subject is commonly known as Periyar only, EVR is a distant second. Considering Wikipedia has a clause called WP:COMMONNAME, I am a bit shocked that such an obvious move was not performed so far. Yes, it is an honorific title, but the move is within under WP:TITLESINTITLES. Quite unsurprisingly, Wikipedians have referred to him as Periyar throughout the article, although the norm is Ramasamy should have been used instead since the title goes by so. This unequivocal, although subconscious, preference by Wikipedians to Periyar to me seems like a strong reason as to why Periyar alone should be considered the common name and thus be moved fittingly. Appu (talk) 20:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Periyar E. V. Ramasamy → Periyar
 * Periyar → Periyar (disambiguation)
 * Periyar is currently a dab page with multiple entries so unless the argument is the person is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term the request will need to be altered to a new name like Periyar (activist) or something similar.--67.70.24.141 (talk) 01:11, 20 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support I completely agree with Appu. Periyar is the commonly used name for the person and is most searched item. Venkat TL (talk) 08:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Let's check the criteria for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, raised above and the page views.
 * Periyar E. V. Ramasamy has 109,000 views
 * Periyar Maniammai Institute of Science & Technology has 492 page views.It is named after Periyar EVR.
 * Periyar University 1719 page views. It is named after Periyar EVR.
 * Periyar Dasan has 959 view
 * Periyar River has 4,000 views
 * Periyar National Park has 8,500 views
 * Mullaperiyar Dam has 6,500 views
 * Vandiperiyar has 466 views
 * Quite clearly Periyar E. V. Ramasamy is the primary topic of the word Periyar and with 'orders of magnitude'. So "Periyar E. V. Ramasamy → Periyar" and "Periyar → Periyar (disambiguation)" is clearly the right thing to do. --Venkat TL (talk) 13:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support It is me who had initiated the "Periyar E. V. Ramasamy → Periyar" move but "Periyar → Periyar (disambiguation)" has been added later into the discussion by a fellow Wikipedian. I leave the first one to the community to decide. As far as the second one is concerned, I am in favour of it, for the other subjects listed don't have any notability comparable to that of the activist. The nearest second is the Periyar river which gets one-tenth visits to that of the activist. Also the activist is the sole icon of politics in the state of Tamil Nadu, while the namesakes aren't culturably important, relatively speaking. Appu (talk) 08:30, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support, Periyar is the most WP:COMMONNAME. A google news search gives 82,500 results for "Periyar" and 4,380 results for "Periyar E. V. Ramasamy". Periyar University is named after the subject and there is no EV Ramasamy in the name. Mahatma Gandhi and Mother Teresa both have honorifics before their names as per WP:TITLESINTITLES and they are not commonly known as "Mahatma" or "Mother" but this subject is known widely only as "Periyar". I'm okay with Periyar (activist) as suggested above. -   SUN EYE 1  18:47, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose, "Periyar" is a very generic Tamil term referring to "elder," "senior," "the great", "the wise", etc. and thus is a term found in various ancient Tamil literature, including the Tirukkural. As a stand-alone term, it refers to several other things even outside the Tamil diaspora (e.g., Periyar River, the Periyar National Park). Thus, not all "Periyar" refers to the person, failing both the criteria under the WP:PTOPIC. The shortened name "Periyar" is common only within the Tamil Nadu state's political circle (and, by extension, social, all within the state). Outside the state, the primary identification is "'Periyar' E. V. Ramasamy" as seen in most of the books and published articles (WP:RS). In my opinion, "Periyar" cannot be the name of the article on 'Periyar' E. V. Ramasamy inasmuch as "Prophet" cannot be the name of the article on Prophet Muhammad. Rasnaboy (talk) 18:04, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well. It could be a generic Tamil term, but why should it matter to the English Wikipedia. As the sources uphold, he is the sole subject referred to as Periyar. Hence the move seems fitting to me for all practical purposes. Appu (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose all proposals. The prominence of Periyar Tunnel, Periyar River, and other "Periyar" pre-dates this person as evident from thousands of results in Google books. NavjotSR (talk) 12:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose It could have been accepted if the title was not such a common name as seen in the current Periyar article. It is the name of many places, movies, actor and organisations etc. Not to mention the term is also used to address or mention seniors and elders in Tamil language from which Periyar also got this title. Such common name can not be solely applied to one single personality even if he is well known by that name. Sajaypal007 (talk) 13:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support, per WP:COMMONNAME which seems fairly clear here as demonstrated by Suneye1 and per WP:DPT which underlines tools and principles for determining WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Venkat TL has already demonstrated that this article has exponential more traffic than any other Periyar. Historical age or original source of the term are not relevant per the same guideline. Regarding the claim that it is apparently only common among Tamils, I can't see any merit to it considering google doesn't index Indian languages very well especially when your query is not in that specific language so the vast majority of results above are from English language sources which is the primary consideration here anyways since we are determining the English name of the subject. But just to demonstrate the point, when searching for Periyar in Hindi on google news almost all results are about the subject of this article, you have to go to the fourth page to even find the first instance of it being used in a different context (that too affixed with the term river).
 * In the same vein, modern usage of "Periyar" in Tamil is primarily about the subject of this article and generally not a reference to its original meaning (which roughly translates to "elder" and not "great" or "wise", the term can be used negatively as well and even for inanimate objects in specific contexts), note this is not even relevant on English Wikipedia considering its use in that sense doesn't exist whatsoever in English or any other language (see the last principle under DPT). Tayi Arajakate  Talk 16:04, 27 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support, per WP:COMMONNAME and Suneye1.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 12:57, 29 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose I just searched for Periyar on Google and found this river article to be the latest item. Clearly the name is not confined to this one individual and that's why there is no case for a "WP:COMMONNAME". It would be like asking "Mahatma Gandhi" to be changed to just Gandhi. The argument about page views is even more irrelevant. SignificantPBD (talk) 18:06, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , the page view is relevant for determining which is the primary topic when there are multiple things with the same name (e.g Boston is the page name of Boston, Massachusetts when Boston, Lincolnshire among other bostons exist, I am sure one can find news articles on the Lincolnshire Boston by searching on google). It helps in quantifying how relevant a topic is and the guideline explicitly specifies "Wikipedia article traffic statistics (for the exact title of a page or a redirect) and redirect traffic statistics (for the total views of a page including traffic coming from its redirects)" as a factor that can be used for doing so.
 * Regarding the comparison with Gandhi, it's misplaced as "Mahatma Gandhi" itself is the common name instead of just "Gandhi" while "Periyar E. V. Ramasamy" is rarely used if at all. The Periyar is also a minor river and has 4,000 page views compared to Periyar's 27x, 109,000 page views. The national park comes closest and still has only 8,500 page views, less than 8% of Periyar's. On the other hand, Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi exist whose articles have 266,800 page views and 117,300 page views respectively which is comparable to Mahatma Gandhi's 557,000 page views. Tayi Arajakate  Talk 00:12, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2022
2409:4072:6218:7F08:0:0:275B:68A5 (talk) 09:46, 13 January 2022 (UTC) I add one content
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:21, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2022
2409:4072:6C98:DE22:0:0:5F48:EB00 (talk) 14:11, 29 January 2022 (UTC) Please give permission for editing this page
 * Full-protection-shackle-no-text.svg Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:19, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Remove 'E. V.' from common usage
I think we should address the subject as Ramasamy rather than E.V. Ramasamy for obvious reasons. [And yes, I understand that Ramasamy is not family name]

I may make bold to replace all E. V. Ramasamys as Ramasamys Appu (talk) 14:49, 12 October 2021 (UTC)


 * @APPU how does the reliable source refer him in his Biographies? Venkat TL (talk) 14:25, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Tragedy is although being a towering figure of his age, Periyar has not had a complete full length biography by anyone. This is the only biography but it is only of 136 pages.https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Periyar/G3LYwAEACAAJ?hl=en Appu (talk) 14:33, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @APPU, We are concerned about how he is referred to in articles about him (Where he is referred to several times). In Political literature of today, he is always cited as Periyar, but that may be because he is referred only once or twice in an article. I personally dont see much problem in your proposal of using Ramasamy, but wanted to make sure that the article follows the same thing followed by scholars. May be you can review a few sources and report back what you find before doing a mass replacement. Venkat TL (talk) 14:39, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2022 (2)
Chinnammarism (talk) 15:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC) Please give permission for I will his support another political party
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Venkat TL (talk) 15:40, 29 January 2022 (UTC).

Please give permission sir Venkat TL. Venkat TL please give permission Chinnammarism (talk) 16:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add this content Ramasamy influenced Tamil Nadu's political party heads such as' continued as MG.Ramachandran And J.Jayalalitha Of Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam,TTV Dhinakaran ,The Founder Of Amma Makkal Munneetra Kazagam Chinnammarism (talk) 16:28, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add this content on Followers and influence' section ,MG.Ramachandran And J.Jayalalitha Of Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam,TTV Dhinakaran ,The Founder Of Amma Makkal Munneetra Kazagam User:Suneye1 sir Chinnammarism (talk) 16:30, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Chinnammarism, Please provide a reliable source for the changes you are proposing.--Venkat TL (talk) 16:33, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Change subject name from 'Ramasamy' to 'Periyar'
In other articles like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrashekarendra_Saraswati, the subject is addressed by the popular name for that individual i.e. Mahaperiyava. It is unclear why Ramasamy is used as the subject name here while he is not popularly known as such in either practice or in print sources including books or newspapers. See for example; https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I2xDAAAAYAAJ&q=periyar&dq=periyar&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&printsec=frontcover&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt1bKDuPH3AhVUilwKHZ-XDYoQ6AF6BAgLEAI and https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/influence-of-dravidian-ethos-on-identity-of-muslims-key-to-harmony-in-tnexperts-101651430953305.html

Lordtalbut (talk) 20:33, 21 May 2022 (UTC)