Talk:Perpetual stew/Archive 1

A note
There is a bar in Tucson, AZ, which is supposed to be the oldest bar in the city, that apparently has a perpetual stew that has been going for a VERY long time. If we can find out the particulars and a source, this might be good as an example. ike9898 16:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * thanks for a warning. Next time I am in Tucson AZ I'll be very very careful. 46.138.94.67 (talk) 10:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

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Perpignan Stew?
The line about there being a stew brewing in Perpignan from the 15th century til WWII seems poorly supported. It only has one source, and is mentioned only in passing. Does anyone have any other sources for this, or for any verified stews that are or were hundreds of years old? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2407:7000:9B93:1A00:1919:2B95:648B:D076 (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Source claiming that these things may not have actually existed
https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/perpetual-stew-history-recipes-myth

©Geni (talk) 08:16, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

IT'S A FAAAAAAAAAAKE!!!!
This whole entire article (and its "sources") are based on some nostalgic fantasy scenario written in a cookbook from the 70's. Typical Wikipedia quality control!

First off: Maintaining a roiling fire 24/7 in the middle ages would have been prohibitively expensive, negating any alleged "economic advantage".

Secondly: They would have had to replenish the water constantly. Potable water was a precious commodity in the middle ages.

Thirdly: Doing so would have killed any flavor and/or nutritional content that the stew had making it a chunky(fat) gross flavorless mess.

Fourthly: The temperature would need to be closely monitored to ensure that not even a little part of the "stew" gets colonized by potentially deadly bacteria. Additionally, acid and salt levels would have to be monitored and kept HIGH, in order to prevent heat-resistant bacteria from colonizing the stew. THE TECHNOLOGY TO DO THIS DID NOT EXIST IN THE MIDDLE AGES.

FINALLY: Any such concoction, even if it wasn't dangerous, would be so completely disgusting that patrons of these hypothetical medieval "Inns" would prefer literally anything else to eat. They wouldn't pay for it. It would smell like corpses and shit. Even the YouTube influencers who tried this admit that, while they didn't die from eating this, that it was ABSOLUTELY VILE. Yet this article acts like EVERYBODY ate this shit!

I've seen this article cited DOZENS of times and it's complete, absolute horseshit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C6:4B81:FCD0:DC03:7D:5A68:F925 (talk) 04:01, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Reguarding the section about Annie Rauwerda's perpetual stew
In my opinion a few things should be changed here but I may be wrong.

Firstly, her content isn't only (or even mostly) from Tiktok, as she also posts on Instagram and Twitter (especially on the Depths of Wikipedia account, which is what brought my attention to the whole thing to begin with). Maybe a different description should be used instead of "Tiktok creator".

Secondly, while the meetings were held in Bushwick, most (or at least a lot) of the people who joined the meetups weren't necessarily residents living nearby, but people who read about the meetups from the aforementioned social media accounts she has, so that should probably be clarified in the article.

Lastly, since there are so many posts and pictures of these meetups on social media (or at least in comparison to everything else here in the article), perhaps some of them could be used for either citations or as photos for the article itself. I'm a little new to Wikipedia so I'm not sure if the social media posts would count as a reliable source, but I think it should be considered. Horizon206 (talk) 05:44, 2 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Welcome to Wikipedia! I'm pretty new myself by the site's standards, haha! Anyhow, there's already a note about it in the "Examples" section about her, which I think succinctly summarizes the current. Specifically, it discusses the event being publicized on TikTok (rather than listing her as a TikTok creator) as well as being localized in Bushwick. Also, in my opinion "In popular culture" is more of a blip in time sort of ordeal rather than an ongoing event, so I believe again that the written portion in "Examples" is fine for this article.
 * Per the question about photos, as far as I can tell they can be used for citations if they present info (like a person's birthday), but cannot be used for photos due to not having permission from the original owner (unless permission is given). Pacamah (talk) 17:01, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have removed the Rauwerda mention as it is unquestionably unencyclopaedic and is borderline promotional. Bedivere (talk) 05:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * I'm surprised to see you've reverted my addition to the page on this. Like the users you responded to on July 3rd, I disagree with your choice. I'm also confused as to how you might read my contribution as promotional. It presents factual information about a contemporary practice of maintaining a perpetual stew and its social implications, without advocating or endorsing the event. Additionally, the information about the Perpetual Stew Club was sourced from a respected outlet known for food journalism. There are limited documented instances of contemporary perpetual stews, and Rauwerda's example is a unique and relevant case.
 * As far as it being "unquestionably unencyclopedic", I'd appreciate it if you could further explain what you mean by this. It presents a contemporary example of the perpetual stew tradition being upheld outside commercial establishments. It offers a balanced perspective of this practice in a community setting, thus contributing to the comprehensiveness of the article. The inclusion of diverse examples, historical and modern, commercial and community-driven, ensures the encyclopedic nature and neutrality of the article, in line with Wikipedia's standards.
 * I suggest reinstating the section for the reasons above. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 23:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information WP:RUNOFTHEMILL and is not news WP:NOTNEWS. This event is not revelant enough on its own for its inclusion in the encyclopedia, and as such, it should not be included here, regardless of your personal opinion. Bedivere (talk) 23:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Also it is evident you personally know Rauwerda and should refrain from inserting that content into the article as you may be in conflict of interest. Bedivere (talk) 23:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking the time to explain and providing the relevant links. I'm having some trouble following your position as the articles you've linked support my position.
 *  On WP:RUNOFTHEMILL status: 
 * This recurrent event's existence is not a common, everyday, ordinary item. It's certainly true that the Perpetual Stew Club should not be given a page of its own— local clubs supporting a hobby or interest should not be the cause of articles and their existence is generally not notable. But this is not a Wikipedia article on the Perpetual Stew Club; it is an article on perpetual stew. To that end, the existence of this event and specifically the stew at the event is absolutely notable, relevant, and deserving of inclusion on the page alongside the restaurant which sold it for eight months and the restaurant which has sold it for decades. (Many restaurants serve broth!) It is likely the most relevant item related to the topic of the article in decades. Regardless of our personal opinions about it, a month-old perpetual stew with community engagement and media attention is an important addition to the article, which is why you've had to fight multiple users on its presence. (Also, as you know, this essay is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, and it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Choosing to enforce this article is definitionally enforcement of a personal opinion on how Wikipedia should be run.)
 *  On WP:NOTNEWS status: 
 * This event isn't news, nor does inclusion represent the indiscriminate collection of information. It does have weight that should be included in proportion to its importance to the overall topic of perpetual stew.
 *  On WP:CONFLICT status: 
 * While it is true I have attended the event, I am not an event organizer nor currently affiliated with it in any official capacity. I was not asked nor in any way encouraged, directly or indirectly, to promote the event nor edit this page. Per the guidelines, I do not feel it necessary to disclose a conflict of interest, but I'm happy to concede on that front and take on connected contributor status if the community at large feels it necessary. Ultimately, I think it's clear I did not edit the article in my own interests, nor in the interests of my external relationships.
 * I'd also like to add, that like all behavioral guidelines, common sense, and occasional exceptions apply. It is Wikipedia policy that if a rule prevents one from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, it should be disregarded. Even if I had a significant conflict of interest, it's clear my contribution was an improvement to the article.
 * With all this in mind, it's clear the contribution should be reinstated. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 01:14, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It is not clear, and it should not be reinstated. It is not relevant enough for inclusion, despite your efforts otherwise. Bedivere (talk) 01:15, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way, I'm not really sure you're not connected with Rauwerda when they've just congratulated you on your talk page. Makes no sense. --Bedivere (talk) 02:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd love to reach a resolution and would it appreciate it if you could engage with those of us who have added this information.
 * Please consider refuting the central point instead of just contradicting.
 * One path forward for you would be to consider explaining your opinion: How is the item is not relevant enough? How are the other examples more relevant? What would need to change about either the event or the writing of the article for it to meet what you perceive to be Wikipedia's relevancy threshold? Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 01:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * For now it is only you defending Rauwerda's thing inclusion on the article. The previous commenters did not participate after my comment. One event of local relevance is not relevant for inclusion in an article of general significance. It is a one event-thing and is not encyclopedic. Bedivere (talk) 01:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * All examples in the article are themselves instances. That's why they fit under an example section. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 01:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting comment.png 3O Response: I removed this from the 3OR page because more than two editors are involved already. In any event, we should follow RSes; posts on social media do not justify inclusion of something in an article. If this club gets coverage in RSes, I wouldn't see the issue including it as an example of a perpetual stew. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:59, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you!
 * Given the coverage of the club in both Eater NY and Thrillist, both owned by Vox Media and both constituting RSes, I have undone the revert. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 03:10, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You are only edit warring, @Chive Cream Cheese. I will undo your revert and if you continue I will report you. It is obvious you are not here to abide by the Wikipedia policies. Bedivere (talk) 03:45, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi there.
 * I've maintained and followed all guidelines for dispute resolution, including seeking a third opinion, which is what you're replying to above. I encourage you to report this interaction and bring more eyes on it, as all my actions have been towards facilitating consensus-building discussion, and I've waited for community feedback before taking action.
 * Additionally, please be aware your choice to report all my uploaded images on Wikimedia Commons as having missing permission, despite the permission being present, constitutes hounding. Please keep your perpetual-stew-related frustration within this article's talk page.
 * Thank you! Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 04:01, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It definitely gets coverage, I think that's why it keeps getting added. I just found out about it because of the coverage. 2600:4041:54BD:E800:38F1:2F1:8B63:FD38 (talk) 20:56, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It is just fine as it is now. It mentions New York and that's perfectly okay. Further mentioning Rauwerda by name and other information that is unencyclopedic is not! Bedivere (talk) 01:44, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the specificity of the examples is important and positive, but would be more than willing to concede on the mention of anyone's name! Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 01:47, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I support 's revision. If this event gets more coverage and the perpetual stew extends furthermore in time (as per your last edit it's only 29 days old, which is not long enough anyway) I would not oppose inserting it in its current extended version proposed by you, but not for now. Bedivere (talk) 01:58, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the previous version was TMI, but @Chamaemelum's version is too short and borderline synth because it draws a broad general conclusion, that the tradition is being "kept alive", from a few disparate examples.
 * @Bedivere and @Chive Cream Cheese: Would you be willing to meet in the middle? Would either or both of you be willing to work together to find additional RSes that speak more broadly to contemporary perpetual stew usage? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * If it is happening even in one place, it is being kept alive. However, we could change it to something like "the technique is still used today" or something.  Chamaemelum  (  talk  ) 02:10, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * If anyone could find at least one RS that speaks to any other contemporary perpetual stew related club or event in any capacity, I will immediately concede and agree fully that this is not notable and nor worthy of inclusion. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 02:15, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Voorts A middle-point between Chamaemelum's and Chive's version would be okay. Bedivere (talk) 02:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I also think that would be okay! Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 02:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi all, this is to inform everyone present in the ongoing dispute that I've opened a dispute resolution request on the noticeboard. Thank you! It can be found at WP:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 01:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * This paragraph does not belong at all. The paragraph is promotion for something that became a "thing" a few weeks ago, and is utterly unencyclopedic. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 05:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Bedivere, that I am an admin has nothing whatsoever to do with the correctness of my position regarding this material. Thank you for reverting the article, again, certainly, but let's find a consensus here. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 23:23, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. My primary reason for reverting was that they called your removal "unconstructive", which it wasn't. Bedivere (talk) 15:33, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jpgordon If it's just being used as an example of the article subject, and the mention is brief, I don't see the issue. It's the only perpetual stew to get widespread coverage in recent years. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with no mention at all or a brief mention. Dedicating an entire paragraph, let alone mentioning Rauwerda, is not something I could ever agree with. Bedivere (talk) 15:34, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason Rauwerda should not be mentioned? It seems appropriate to link to the relevant page given Rauwerda is a public figure yes? 2600:4041:54BD:E800:79C7:2EA7:4E9F:48D2 (talk) 15:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * She is not a public figure. She has an Instagram account that has an article, not her. Bedivere (talk) 15:52, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have destroyed the name 2600:4041:54BD:E800:79C7:2EA7:4E9F:48D2 (talk) 15:54, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Did you?  (chat)/(logs) 15:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It has been reverted but I tried.
 * I would be ok with no name but do think it should be mentioned. To not mention it would be bad for the article since the article is about perpetual stew.
 * Maybe the wording needs to change so it doesn't sound like a promotion.
 * If the event ended today then in one year it would be a great addition. I know it is a recent event but we could improve the article if we tread carefully in how we mention it. 2600:4041:54BD:E800:79C7:2EA7:4E9F:48D2 (talk) 16:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The entirety of the paragraph got removed by one user. I thought the consensus was to leave it? It's now admin locked and can't be reverted. Pacamah (talk) 17:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Pacamah I agree. @Jpgordon: we were having an active discussion and trying to reach a consensus. Removing the paragraph and then admin-locking the page does not help with those efforts and I think it's inappropriate given you've expressed an opinion on the topic and aren't impartial in this discussion. Would you consider restoring the status quo so we can continue to work on this? voorts (talk/contributions) 17:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Voorts: interjecting here. I believe you should read the protection log before assuming that Jpgordon is the one who locked the page. – robertsky (talk) 17:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Robertsky That's my bad. I shouldn't have assumed. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:00, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I also thought just about everyone was fine with a short mention of it that was non-promotional and did not mention the founder by name.
 * Does anyone present strongly oppose this? Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 17:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I honestly want to ask you, what is the actual point of adding a very recent event of local relevance into an article that treats a subject going centuries back and only giving those centuries minimal writing? It's definitely undue attention to this 2023 thing. I am up for removing it altogether. Bedivere (talk) 18:10, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The "Modern revival" section, as written, is basically three examples of random restaurants (as well as an unsourced claim about Japanese culture). How is this any less notable than those, other than the fact that it's more recent and has gotten more coverage in the press than the first three examples? voorts (talk/contributions) 22:01, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have already mentioned it but we are not the news. It is doubtful, but not definite, that this event will have lasting significance. Could it be worth a mention? Perhaps. Not now definitely. Re. the other restaurants, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Bedivere (talk) 01:44, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This event already has significance to the overarching topic of Perpetual Stew and is far more notable than any one restaurant maintaining a broth for a while.
 * This event has attracted hundreds of people and continues to get media attention. It's not presented as "news".
 * Also, I'd really appreciate it if you could just state your reasoning instead of (or in addition to) linking to unofficial opinion essays which— as seen above— often don't support your view. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 03:10, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "is far more notable than any one restaurant maintaining a broth for a while" -- that's your opinion, that of an involved individual, who has participated in such an event (self evident as you have uploaded the picture of Rauwerda's event). WP:NOTNEWS means that Wikipedia is ... not the news. It is not here to report every single thing happening about broader topics such as this one. And now that you're commenting on OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, try to get lucky contesting the broad acceptance of that essay ("unofficial opinion essays") in this Wikipedia. Bedivere (talk) 03:17, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sure there's been any debate that we have differing opinions on the best enforcement of Wikipedia policy and on what is worthy of inclusion through those policies. Yes, we both have opinions. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 03:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Bedivere You're missing the point RE OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I'm not arguing that this is notable or shouldn't be removed because other stuff exists. I'm arguing that this is at least as notable as the other examples that are already in the article. voorts (talk/contributions) 11:22, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "What is the actual point of adding a very recent event of local relevance into an article that treats a subject going centuries back and only giving those centuries minimal writing?"
 * I appreciate your concern, but it's crucial to consider the broader implications of the recent "local event". This 2023 occurrence isn't just a blip in time; it's the most significant manifestation of the centuries-old tradition of perpetual stew and serves an important role in understanding the ongoing cultural relevance and interest in this historic practice. Furthermore, may be the only perpetual-stew related event in centuries.
 * It would be a major disservice to people who come to this article to exclude the event. Hundreds of people regularly congregated in Brooklyn to communally create and eat from a perpetual stew. Excluding it will leave readers with an incomplete picture of the subject matter.
 * As for how that inclusion works— whether or not or not we name the specific creators of the club or the age of the stew— I'm very flexible on and was more than happy with the version of this article which made no mention of the creator. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 03:23, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a sound argument. I support including the event.  Chamaemelum  (  talk  ) 03:31, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "it's the most significant manifestation of the centuries-old tradition of perpetual stew" -- no. It might be this week the most publicized. It's far too recent to consider it "significant". Or even notable. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 03:39, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Definitely not notable for its own article, but I don't see a big issue with a passing mention of the event. Also, if Chive is right that hundreds of people showed up, there is a decent chance that it is the biggest perpetual stew event ever. Perhaps if you think it isn't that significant then the text mentioning it could be shortened?  Chamaemelum  (  talk  ) 03:45, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Right or not, it is no more than a local event with no evident lasting significance. Bedivere (talk) 06:59, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Btw thanks for your magnificent opinion, @Chive Cream Cheese, but saying that "it's the most significant manifestation of the centuries-old tradition of perpetual stew" with no other source than your own, personally involved and respectable but very biased opinion, is moot to me. Yes, there is some news coverage. Does that make this event of local relevance (let alone national, international impact) worthy of a mention now? I tend to think the contrary. Since I don't have a crystal ball, I can't say if, in the future, this particular event will prove to be more relevant to perpetual stew in a global context. Bedivere (talk) 07:04, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Part of the issue is that perpetual stew itself is not very notable. Therefore, a very notable event among perpetual stew events might not be very notable at all.  Chamaemelum  (  talk  ) 07:37, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Obviously this is not a notable or important event in the history of recorded events.
 * It is, however, notable and important as a perpetual stew in the history of recorded perpetual stews.
 * The subject of this article is perpetual stew, not world events.
 * I don't understand why you'd need a crystal ball to determine if the only recorded 200+ attending ongoing perpetual stew event is notable and relevant to a topic which has been so, so quiet for the last 600 years.
 * Even if this event ends up overshadowed— even if hundreds of larger, unrelated perpetual stew events were to spring up next year, with attendees in the millions... it would only reaffirm the importance and relevance of this (apparently pioneering) event.
 * By any reasonable metric, this is relevant to the topic and notable within it.
 * Also, the dispute resolution noticeboard posting was closed as you refused to participate in moderated discussion. Why didn't you participate? Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 07:48, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Bedivere (talk) 15:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know what happened to my comment. I did participate in the DRN. No one else seemed willing to further their participation though. The remainder is just your opinion of an event of local significance, if not relevance. Bedivere (talk) 16:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This is what should be done and why I destroyed the name 2600:4041:54BD:E800:79C7:2EA7:4E9F:48D2 (talk) 20:42, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Ultimately though it's up to the consensus of the talk page. The people who want to add the name are probably at the same level of desire (no idea if that's the right word) as the people who want to see it struck, and ultimately why there's pretty much a trial being written on the perpetual stew talk page. I understand wanting to take initiative and strike it, but it's important to do what the majority agrees with. Trust me I've done it before (I've gotten into arguments about composer infoboxes after making one and having it removed minutes later), and talk pages are probably the best way to sort it.  Pacamah (talk) 23:29, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Should we close this discussion and open an RfC? I don't think we're going to reach consensus any time soon and it would be good to get some outside voices. Pinging. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Voorts (talk • contribs) 14:16, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * We've already had one Dispute resolution noticeboard and it seems like it sorta went nowhere? Also I have no idea how it works so that might be the reason too tbh Pacamah (talk) 15:22, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Pacamah I was never notified of the DRN dispute, which in any event, is not an RfC. An RfC involves people commenting, on the article talk page, and then the discussion being closed by an uninvolved editor who determines consensus. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:25, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * See WP:RFC. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:28, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It can be resolved here just fine. Bedivere (talk) 15:40, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought we were reaching consensus; there seemed to be movement towards a compromise, which you agreed to, but now it seems like you're fully opposed to any mention. Are you still up for a compromise? If not, I don't see how we resolve this without an RfC with an uninvolved close at the end. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:59, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It's true I changed my mind, returning to my original position. I don't think it should get a mention. As I have repeatedly said before, and as I have read this is getting finished in nearly a month, if this event proves to have some sort of lasting significance, I wouldn't object mentioning it in the form that was previously agreed. Right now it is utterly unencyclopaedic. Bedivere (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * If Bedivere is unwilling to compromise I am in favor of RfC. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 16:50, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Ahh apologies, I had no idea (I've never been in a dispute like this before lol), thanks for letting me know Pacamah (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's my proposal for an RfC prompt: Should the "Modern revival" section contain a one sentence reference to the perpetual stew that is currently being cooked in Brooklyn, New York, without mentioning Annie Rauwerda or Depths of Wikipedia? (See for more information on the stew). voorts (talk/contributions) 23:19, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Works for me.
 * There are a number of more recent reliable sources, including those claiming as many as 200 attendees, and I think that's relevant to if this should be included / is notable. Chive Cream Cheese (talk) 23:45, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Pacamah & @Jpgordon, okay with you to close this discussion and start an RfC? voorts (talk/contributions) 13:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good! Pacamah (talk) 00:00, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 17 July 2023
Thank stew :) XxLuckyCxX (talk) 02:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Archive [citation 3] to allow those in the EEA to read the source as GDPR restrictions mean the article is blocked
 * 2) Change the author name of the above source to "Moulton, Sara" as it is mistakenly attributed to Associated Press (the overarching provider)
 * 3) In the "In popular culture" section, add a CN tag to point 2 ("In A Song of Ice and Fire [...]")
 * 4) Remove citation 6, the Atlas Obscura article, as it has been retracted
 * Please confirm the correct link for the archived version?
 * &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * XxLuckyCxX (talk) 20:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I added it, but that page only shows two sentences for me &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:05, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm not sure why it's being used as a source (maybe relating to the image) but wasn't my choice to add it in so will leave it for now. Thank you :) XxLuckyCxX (talk) 22:14, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You mean it's only two sentences in the original? If so that seems a totally useless reference &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I added it, but that page only shows two sentences for me &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:05, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm not sure why it's being used as a source (maybe relating to the image) but wasn't my choice to add it in so will leave it for now. Thank you :) XxLuckyCxX (talk) 22:14, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You mean it's only two sentences in the original? If so that seems a totally useless reference &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Fake citation
It appears citation number 6 has been retracted for having pure fabrications. Per the source:

This article has been retracted as it does not meet Atlas Obscura’s editorial standards. Our investigation revealed the writer fabricated interviews with multiple sources; Michael Colameco and David Santos confirmed via email that they have never been interviewed by the writer, and that quotes and other material attributed to them by the writer have been taken from other sources. Atlas Obscura was unable to reach Magdalena Perrote, Dr. Annie Gray, and Adaeze Okafor.

Would be a good idea to remove it from the article. : 3 F4U (they/it) 07:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree. There's citation 5 there too so I think it should be okay to remove it.
 * yippeeee!! :3 Pacamah (talk) 12:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Done by ComplexRational. Legoktm (talk) 23:23, 19 July 2023 (UTC)