Talk:Persephone/Archive 1

Unclear description
We're talking about a mythical figure from long ago. I think that makes it appropriate to cite sources with titles, directly. The same should be done for conflicting accounts. As someone who is not an expert on the topic, reading this makes me feel like the topic is open to debate at-large. Instead of implying debate through the article, just outright describe the debate(s).

The article is poorly written, with very little flow. Someone who could streamline the topic would be greatly appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Idkwhatshappening (talk • contribs) 06:44, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Bulfinch's Mythology
This entry still reads like a page out of Bulfinch's Mythology. It needs to be entirely rethought. Wetman 19:38, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Well...what are the problems, specifically? And what's with all these mythology articles saying so-and-so is a "life-birth-death" god? I thought that was an outdated argument. Adam Bishop 23:31, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, someone seems to have got bee in their bonnet about the eniautos daimon hypothesis and went around pasting it in as accepted fact everywhere. A few months ago I tried to rephrase most of them in neutral POV.  I just found a snippy remark here about Frazer-doubters being a "handful of Christian apologists."  *Sigh*.  Rephrased in neutral POV and moved to end of article. Bacchiad 00:35, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the entry needs a separate section on Persephone/Demeter aside from the Olympian context into which they fit so uncomfortably. Wetman 01:11, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * SVDk#xx,,,,,,,km3okgj

Distracting blank spaces
Formatting that encases the framed table of contents in text, in just the way a framed map or image is enclosed within the text, is now available: in the HTML does the job.

Blank space opposite the ToC, besides being unsightly and distracting, suggests that there is a major break in the continuity of the text, which may not be the case. Blanks in page layout are voids and they have meanings to the experienced reader. The space betweeen paragraphs marks a brief pause between separate blocks of thought. A deeper space, in a well-printed text, signifies a more complete shift in thought: note the spaces that separate sub-headings in Wikipedia articles.

A handful of thoughtless and aggressive Wikipedians revert the "TOCleft" format at will. A particularly aggressive de-formatter is User:Ed g2s

The reader may want to compare versions at the Page history. --Wetman 20:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Why does Kore redirect to this page? Shouldn't it be a page of its own, since it's a general topic?

The childless divine couple
"Persephone and Hades are notable as the only divine couple besides Aphrodite and Hephaestus who did not produce children." That's three Olympians out of twelve already... This is not informative, aside from the glimpsed misperceptions of what these pairings might have signified to an ancient Greek. They are not akin to "getting married and having children." --Wetman 17:14, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Kore
Why does Kore currently redirect here? The only part of this entire article that even mentions "kore" is a single, unexplained time in the first line; the name is never detailed. A kore is a generic term for "young woman" in Greek, and is chiefly used as the female counterpart to the kouros statues. Why not have "Kore" redirect to "Kouros" or give it its own article instead of having it redirect? We don't have kouros redirect to Apollo, after all. -Silence 12:02, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * (FYI to later readers, Kore is now a disambiguation page.) — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 06:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Persephone ( Kore ) was kidnaped by hades and was to stay in the under world for six moths and the othe six was to be spent with her mothe on earth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.188.170 (talk) 00:49, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Which article is right...
This article says Persephone ate 6 pomegranate seeds while the article about Demeter says Persephone ate 4. It would be nice to resolve this discrepancy.


 * Since the number varies in the retellings it would be unwise to become distracted by the "number" of seeds. The discrepency is irresolvable, for the Greeks had no triumphant "orthodoxy" to burn all dissenting texts. --Wetman 02:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It was probably 6, because Hades punished her for the amount of seeds she ate, half a year. Fall and winter. --Kookoo275 05:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * An excellent example of my point. The Greek calendars had no "autumn" season. --Wetman 04:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The season of no plant growth (which occurred in the dry hot summer), however, was only 4 months long, which may explain the 4 seeds; one per month. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 06:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You've got the season right: it's the season when seeds are in the earth, either stored in a half-buried pithos or sown and not yet showing. The number does vary according to the source. German and English C19 scholars imagined "winter". --Wetman (talk) 15:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Moved comment
Sorry dat ik het in het Nederlands zeg maar waarom in Godshemelsnaam vind ik op heel dat internet niets terug over Dimitri en zijn relatie t.o.v Persephone tenslotte betekent Dimitri wel hij die het laatste oordeel moet vellen en is hij tegelijk de zoon van Demeter ( niet de minste voor deze planeet ) maar ook de broer van de Koningin van de onderwereld nml Persephone... Wat is zijn verhaal doorheen de hele Geschiedenis ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.165.194.234 (talk) 04:39, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

The King Must Die
What is this book being used as a source for ancient myths? Why does it matter what Mary Renaut writes about Theseus and Persephone? Adam Bishop 01:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * And I believe this article is about the ancient Greek/Roman mythological characters. If there are citations that support Ms. Renaut's take on it as being based in Greek/Roman myth, then it would belong here (with those citations).  But barring, that it is in a novel does not serve as a citation and it shouldn't be here.  Make sense? John (Jwy) 02:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Much as I've enjoyed the book, I'd have to agree. --Wetman 06:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I hope we hear from the editors. I plan to edit tomorrow and set up some sort of reference to The King Must Die article and move some of that information over there.

The King Must Die
Well when i was reading the Theseus page, it did say that the King Must Die, even though it was a novel, was a reliable source depicting the adventures of Theseus. YamBond


 * generally faithful to the spirit and flavor doesn't make me feel good about counting on it for an authority for an encyclopedia. Note: I'm not saying its a bad book or anything.  I have not read it.  Its just that it is a novel.

A section similar to the one in Theseus about the book that discusses the differences would seem more appropriate. John (Jwy) 01:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It is not an ancient source, and therefore invalid. It's a pop culture reference. Proserpine 06:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Deus ex machina John (Jwy) 16:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Mercy?
I have a problem with the phrase "she only showed mercy once". We are talking about somebody associated with HADES here, anyone who has studied these myths would see that he is highly possessive. It is not her luxury to let his possessions go (it was hard enough striking the bargain to let her go for half the year). -- 69.248.43.27 13:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Persephone as Queen of the Underworld appears to precede Hades. A good place to bein is KerenyiElesusis: Archetypal Image of Mother and Daughter (available in paperback). --Wetman 02:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

She who destroys light?
Where does that come form? I have only been able to find sources that say her name is related to the words "destroy" or "to murder" but no references to light.


 * According to an etymology book, "Perse" roughly means "destroy" and is the root of names like "Perseus" and "Persephone". "Phone" means sound and looks similar to "photo" which means light.  Unless her name is Persephoto, I think "Persephone" can roughly mean "destroyer of sound".  I read in Doris Orgel's "My Mother's Daughter" that Persephone means "bringer of destruction", though I think the etymology book is more accurate.


 * Well, you can't just look up words in an etymology book and decide that Persephone's name actually means "destroyer of sound" through superficial resemblance to other words. That's obviously not what her name means. It probably isn't even a Greek name. However, this sort of etymology is long attested in classical and medieval writings, so if some ancient author says something like that, then we can definitely quote it to show what the Greeks thought her name meant. I'm not sure where "destroyer of light" comes from though, so we should probably remove the etymology entirely. Adam Bishop 02:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * etymology:scholarship::pun:humor. The 'etymologies" after names in Wikipedia are presented with unwarranted confidence and far too prominent in their articles. --Wetman 02:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)--Wetman 02:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * According to "The Greek Myths" by Robert Graves, "Persephone means "bringer of destruction", while "Persephatta" means "she who tells of destruction" or "destructive dove". This book is (c) 1955, but I think such a brief quote can be considered "fair use". Josh-Levin@ieee.org 02:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Walter Burkert prefers to refer to her simply as Kore, "the Girl"; According to Burkert's Greek Religion (1985:159), "Kore's own enigmatic name is Persephone, or Phersephone and in Attic Pherrephatta." Robert Graves' etymologies for Greek names, as found in the index to The Greek Myths, when they are not quite straightforward, often stray where no one follows. The Greeks' own use of etymology as a kind of allegorising of functions, interesting in itself and enthusiastically taken up by Christian patristic writers as moralising wordplay, is not supported by the linguistic studies developed during the last couple of centuries. Greek linguistic borrowings are characteristically deeply transformed: see Burkert's The Orientalizing Revolution''.--Wetman (talk) 04:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Info box
I notice that on high resolution monitors the info box for this page pops out to the left of the picture of Persephone, and doesn't look very good. Does anyone have enough editting experience to attempt to fix this? I think a simple solution might be to swap the position of the top picture with one of the two pics on the page with a smaller verticle dimension, this would prevent the infobox from overlapping it. Just my 2 cents, I wasn't sure if anyone else had made an initiative to fix this yet. Stardust8212 20:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Children of Persephone
I removed Iacchus as Persephone's son, as he seems to be the son of Zeus and Demeter. I also added that Zagreus was also often seen as the child of Zeus and Demeter, and not Persephone (although sometimes Persephone was thought to be the mother).--The Great Honker 20:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine mess
Well, this is a fine mess! It looks as though it used to be an article, but somehow everything has gotten all mixed around. Someone needs to straighten it out and give it a good edit. I can't do it right now but someone should. I notice the main star of the event, the picture, has gone away, and who knows when it will be back, if ever. I found this other one, which I put in. What's the box doing down the bottom? Have we got some sort of contention here? If so, contend somewhere else, will you?Dave 02:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Lourdes!
"The grotto in Lourdes, where the Blessed Virgin Mary is reported to have appeared in 1858, was previously a shrine to the Goddess Persephone." No, this hasn't been "reported". Unsupported by any archaeology. Well-meaning? or perhaps a hoax.--Wetman 04:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As yet I haven't been able pin down an on-line source that proves that the shrine was dedicated specifically to Persephone but the following excerpt, from a contemporary traditional catholic viewpoint, does allude to it: "BIBLE AND LOURDES ROSARY AND LOURDES" "In the niche of the Grotto where Mary will appear there was a square stone of different composition from the Grotto which apparently at one time was used for pagan sacrifices. How appropriate and meaningful for Mary to stand on that stone since she is the one who came to crush the serpent's head through her Son." http://www.ewtn.com/library/Prayer/ROSLOURD.HTM  The chance of any archaeological evidence ever being unearthed is extremely unlikely since it now regarded as one of the holiest catholic shrines in the world and there is no particular interest in proving such a past use of the grotto. I suspect that the link with Persephone, if there ever was one, would have come from "graffiti" on the cave walls that will have long since been removed. GoldenMeadows 17:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The sole fact in this seems to be that there is/was "a square stone of different composition" from the native stone of the Grotto. As for the rest, the link given above speaks for itself. There is no responsible published connection with Persephone whatsoever. --Wetman 08:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection
As of this post the last 89 edits have resulted in zero net gain. A lot of time is spent here on kindergarten kontrol. Semi-protection would free adults for more useful tasks. --Wetman 22:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Done, at least until some other admin decides indefinite protection, even semi-protection, is too long. Adam Bishop 07:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

First sentence reads poorly
Consider a rewite for readability. --1000Faces 06:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Persephone in Popular Culture
Michael R. McGuire's play is published by Brooklyn Publishers and performed nationally. Therefore it is an appropriate entry under popular culture. (Igwelldowntrodden 13:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC))

Persephone James is the alias Detective Olivia Benson (protrayed by Mariska Hargitay) uses while working undercover for the FBI in the TV series Law and Order: Special Victim's Unit (SVU), season 7, episode 167: Infiltrated.

Herc's Adventures
I'm changing this note in "Persophone in Popular Culture":

"Persephone played the "damsel in distress" role in LucasArts's Herc's Adventures for the Sony PlayStation and Sega Saturn. As in the myth, Persephone decides to stay with Hades in the Underworld at the end and become his queen."

I just beat this game and it's not true; she doesn't stay with Hades in the end. FAQs don't mention the possibility of that ending either.

69.201.201.252 16:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Err...the page is protected. Can someone please remove the line "As in the myth, Persephone decides to stay with Hades in the Underworld at the end and become his queen." Thanks. 69.201.201.252 16:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Too long [sic]
Someone's tagged this article as outstaying its welcome. Does it strain everyone's attention span? Compare Barbie, which is slightly longer but not tagged as "too long". What would make a self-contained sub-article? Perhaps the subject isn't interesting enough and the article really should be deleted altogether. --Wetman (talk) 22:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've modified the template for the introduction - which is what I meant using Friendly. As it stands per WP:LEAD and WP:SUMMARY, the introduction is far too bloated.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 22:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Etymology
Hello everyone, this is mere speculation, but does anyone know anything about the etymology of "Persephone". Based on my limited knowledge of Ancient Greek, I speculate that the name could mean "speaker of the Persian language". Can anyone verify or disprove this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bagrationi (talk • contribs) 14:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If her name meant that, it should be *Περσόφωνος or something, not Περσεφόνη. Περσεφόνη is almost certainly of Pre-Greek origin, since it has no meaning in any Indo-European Language. The etymologies given above (She who destroys light?) seem equally unsubstantiated per the Ancient Greek morphophonological rules. When I find more sources on that matter (Pre-Greek origin), I will try to add it to the article. Omnipedian (talk) 20:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to give a hint about the Pregreekness of her name I will say this: i.m.o. the original form of the name was *pyirsipyatya which resulted to Phersephatta and then (after the first aspirated phoneme was dissimilated) Persephatta. The first lexeme (if the name is a compound) must be cognate with Perseus (< *pyersaa-u(s)?). The dual rendition of palatalized PreGreek consonants is well attested but ill described (Att-ica from *aty-i(s) and its cognate Athena from *aty-aan-aya). Of course all the above analysis is more or less OR, so there is no point adding it to the article; I'm placing it in the talk-page i.o.t. show you the greater picture of the PreGreek substratum. As for the credibility of my reconstructions, I have to say that they are based on the Leiden School of PrePIE languages reconstruction, and particularly on this marvelous paper by Robert S. P. Beekes on the matter of the reconstructed PreGreek lexicon/phonology. Omnipedian (talk) 09:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I recall seeing in one of my Classical Greek dictionaries that her name may mean 'bringer of destruction', and I've also seen this translation given elsewhere. Looking at Liddel & Scott's Greek-English lexicon, the variants of her name are Persephoneia, Phersephone, Persephassa, Pherephassa and Pherephatta.  'Destruction' seems to be a definite component of her name; the word 'persepolis' (aside from being the name of the city, possibly unrelated) is given as a poetic word for 'destroyer of cities', and the greek word 'phonos'(m.) or 'phone'(f.) means murder/slaughter/destruction. There may also be a connection with 'phonios' or 'phoinios', adjectives meaning crimson/blood-red/bloodstained.  So one possible translation might be 'blood-red destroyer'.  'Phero' is the verb meaning to bear/carry/bring, whence comes the translation 'bringer of destruction'.


 * There does also seem to be some connection with 'dove', as 'phassa' (Attic version 'phatta') means wild pigeon or ringdove. Directly below that 'phasso-phonos' is given as 'dove-killing'. I'm not sure what the association there is, likely it's been lost through time. Persephone seems to have multiple related meanings to go with the different versions of her name, but all clearly point to an element of destruction, which is why her name was probably not spoken aloud due to the association of profane/underworld mysteries (as the article currently says, she was referred to through euphemisms). Perhaps when Minoan Linear A is deciphered more light will be shed on this, if Kerenyi is right about her presence on Crete.
 * --Kavita9 (talk) 20:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Category:Winter
I see that User:66.75.10.163 has added Category:Winter to this article. No discussion. As it's possible someone may think that's vandalism and revert it, let me suggest that the reasoning may be "mythological being associated with winter", like another category member, Old Man Winter, as Persephone's abduction is "the reason for the season" in Greek myth. However, please read Talk:Demeter; the Greek season of no plant growth is actually the dry hot summer. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 06:18, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well said above, too. It just can't be repeated too often, it seems.--Wetman (talk) 15:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Pronounciation
The article currently gives the pronunciation as /pərˈsɛfəniː/. Is this (as I suspect) how it is now said by most English speakers, or the original pronounciation? If it is the current English, can anyone can provide the original please. Imc (talk) 08:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Persephone in popular culture
This bulleted list has been moved to Greek mythology in popular culture where the list has some context and a Persephone section was lacking. The section heading here remains, with a hatnote and a brief statement. No text was changed in the move. --Wetman (talk) 15:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Dear Wiki scholars. Please take this work into account and consider mentioninging it here or on the "...popular culture" topic: http://www.nelson-atkins.org/art/CollectionDatabase.cfm?id=27583&theme=american — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grygiu (talk • contribs) 04:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"another version"
I've moved this here:
 * "Another version of this story is that Persephone actully begins to enjoy her new role of Queen of the Underworld, and as Hermes came to bring her back to her mother, Hades feds her some pomergranate seeds forcing her to stay in the Underworld."

The reason this well-intentioned insertion is unsourced (and unsourceable) is that the Greeks understood Persephone's ancient role as Queen in the Underworld too well to tell anecdotes in which she was "beginning to enjoy her new role".--Wetman (talk) 04:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Question
Is it related to the Persians like "Perseus" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.219.159 (talk) 22:56, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

parthenogenesis
The article asserts in the intro that Persephone was originally parthenogenic and implies that the later attribution of a father was a Classical invention. However, unless I've overlooked it (apologies if so), the article never discusses this, and never cites any sources for a fatherless birth, and moreover cites Hesiod as an early source for Persephone having a father. Hesiod is not a poet of the Classical period, but of the Archaic period. The Homeric Hymn to Demeter also has Zeus as her father. Unless earlier inscriptions or the Homeric epics say she was 'virgin-born', what is the basis for asserting parthenogenesis? Cynwolfe (talk) 12:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The Theoi Project's article on Persephone, gives these references for the parents of Persephone being Zeus and Demeter: (Hesiod Theogony 912, Homeric Hymn 2 to Demeter, Apollodorus 1.29, Pausanias, Ovid Metamorphoses 5.501, Ovid Fasti 4.575, Nonnus Dionysiaca 5.562, et al). It also says that Apollodorus 1.13, gives her parentage oddly as Zeus and Styx. I think the reference to a parthenogenic birth needs to be removed. Paul August &#9742; 21:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've now removed it. Paul August &#9742; 21:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking time to look into it. Theoi.com is a wonderful resource. Sometimes these kinds of questions arise because of how 20th-century sources interpret myths in the context of our own identity politics. Nothing wrong with giving these too, as long as they're clearly distinguished from the ancient Greek conceptions (which also vary, as that interesting point about the Styx shows) and cited. Cynwolfe (talk) 11:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

info box and frivolous editing
I wish people would stop editing the info box with information they pull out of the air. No one who actually read the article Eubuleus would think he should be understood simplistically as Persephone's "sibling." This is to apply notions of family relationships among human beings to divine genealogies, which function as theogonies, theologies, cosmogonies, and cosmologies. Just because two figures are said (and not even consistently) to have the same mother doesn't mean that they are treated as brother and sister in the myths. Apollo and Artemis — now that's a meaningful sibling dynamic. It's this kind of editing that renders info boxes frivolous and reductive. And some of the info added to the box directly contradicted the text of the article! Please, don't edit this article unless you're prepared to do some serious scholarship on this important and complex figure, who is central to some of the most deeply held religious beliefs of antiquity. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:19, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Second all of that. Paul August &#9742; 20:46, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

'Consorts and children'
This section is unsourced: "some sources" is not a citation. The list in some instances fails to specify whether the entity is a consort or a child of Persephone. What is it about this article that attracts such willy-nilly editing? For instance, Zuntz is cited in the bibliography, but as far as I've noticed, not actually in the footnotes. To me, such a list has little value anyway, unless it discussed in context. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:44, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Icon for IPA for English pronunciation guide unnecessary and misleading
That icon makes it look as though an audio pronunciation is available when it isn't. It ought to be removed.

Cheers,

98.225.90.57 (talk) 08:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

question about the name
Perse-Phone, it occurs to me that it sounds like Persian Language speaking person. just an idea.

James Michael DuPont (talk) 07:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

copyediting
I wonder whether the editor(s) currently adding buckets of material could pause to do some basic copyediting before adding more content for others to clean up: correct spacing in relation to punctuation, for instance. Help may be found at MOS:PUNCT. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

'Ancient literary references' section
Does anyone have any views on the purpose or value of this section? Cynwolfe (talk) 16:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It reads like someone's leftover collation of sources, preparatory to writing an article. The article already contains "ancient literary references", mostly filtered through modern scholarship. Thus footnotes and citations, offering further context, detail, quotes and what-have-you. I reckon the section's redundant. Haploidavey (talk) 17:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

This page still needs a lot of editing!
I concur with an earlier editor who found that this page needed so much editing that he couldn't manage to begin the task.

The main problem is lack of a basic consensus on the point of view. The page wanders a lot and gives interpretations from various school and sources as though they were all compatible. A recognition of the diversity of opinions and sources is essential here. There are different stories about Persephone and different cults of Persephone, which have quite different characteristics.

The page also has a lot of unsupported assertions - e.g. Ploutos "who represents the wealth of the corn that was stored in underground silos or ceramic jars (pithoi). Similar subterranean pithoi were used in ancient times for burials and Ploutos is fused with Hades, the King of the realm of the dead." - where is the support for this? This kind of statement is at best one-sided, and deludes the reader into thinking that something definite is known, when in fact the knowledge is speculative and there are at least several possible interpretations.

I think Kerenyi's book Eleusis (1967) should be referenced and woven in more. The current page twice cites Nilsson's Greek Popular Religion, which came out in 1940 and is much less scholarly than Kerenyi. Wwallacee (talk) 07:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with you, up to your advocacy for Kerenyi. Please note the date of that work. Archaeology and intellectual history haven't stood still over the last half-century. What's need is to structure the article giving due weight to a representative range of RS. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Etymology of Persephone via Sanskrit
Persephone. Found this interesting. "Scholars agree that the most authentic form of the goddess’s name was the one used in Attica, the best form of which is widely held to be Π-/ΦΕΡΡΕΦΑΤΤΑ. However, 5th century BC Attic vases attest Π-/ΦΕΡΡΟΦΑΤΤΑ. The -ε- form must be secondary, easily explained by analogy to other περσε- words, and the -ο- form old, being difficult to explain. Φ-φ- > Π-φ- is easy by dissimilation of aspiration. Any connection to περθ- ‘destroy’ is folk-etymological. However, if instead Π-φ- > Φ-φ- sporadically, and -ρσ- is also old, being the source of -ρρ-, then there must have been a now lost stem *περσ- (unrelated to ‘destroy’). Lo, there’s a Rig-Vedic hapax parṣa- m. ‘sheaf’. Compare now, too, a simile in Indra’s boast: “as on the threshing-floor the sheaves, I beat them in masses”. ‘Beat’ was PIE *gʷʰen-, of which the o-grade form is transparent in the theonym’s common form -φον-. -Φόνη < -φόνεια must have replaced older -φαττα, which easily derives from *-gʷʰn̥-t-ia, the zero-grade form of the verbal root + -t- + feminine suffix. So, not ‘Destroyer of Death’ vel sim., rather ‘Sheaf-beater’! Which makes good sense, given Persephone’s connection with the ripening of corn." Any insights on this is greatly appreciated. Komitsuki (talk) 10:31, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Another etymology of Persephone via Sanskrit
Persephone is the Queen of the Underworld, and maybe she can be considered a Psychopomp.

A psychopomp is a guide, whose primary function is to escort souls to the afterlife, that is, to call the dead and accompany them to Hades.

Sanskrit has some words that are very similar to their Greek counterparts:

phonein (GRK) = to call, to sound

bhaṇati { bhaṇ } (SKT) = to call, to sound

and also

phanein (GRK) = to appear, to shine

bhāna (SKT) = appearance, evidence, light, lustre

If we consider that:

परासु (parāsu) (SKT) = dying or dead, one whose vital spirit is departed or departing

and we combine the words, we obtain:

parāsubhaṇi (SKT) = she who calls the dead — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:27E8:10:1042:0:DACB:1500:2A9E (talk) 11:06, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Corn
Mention is made of corn several times in the "Greek Mythology" section. "Demeter was also united with the hero Iasion in Crete and she bore Ploutos (πλούτος,plutos:wealth)[2] who represents the wealth of the corn that was stored in underground silos or ceramic jars (pithoi). Similar subterranean pithoi were used in ancient times for burials and Ploutos is fused with Hades, the King of the realm of the dead. During summer months, the Greek Corn-Maiden (Kore) is lying in the corn of the underground silos, in the realm of Hades and she is fused with Persephone, the Queen of the underworld."

Inasmuch as corn (maize) is a Western Hemisphere plant that did not reach Europe before Columbus, why is corn mentioned here at all. What is the name of the plant in Greek and why is it presented here as corn?Ckenney5 (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep, always fun for those of us who speak American. It's an English Language Variant (mostly UK and states with a British educational legacy) for basically any cereal.  See Corn (disambiguation). —  the cardiff chestnut  &#124; talk  —  21:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Why go back?
How is this as a source? See especially "...if any immortal had tasted food in his realms they were bound to remain there forever."--Debouch (talk) 19:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The bit I removed said " It was a rule of the Fates that whoever consumed food or drink in the Underworld was doomed to spend eternity there". I know of no source which involves the Fates/Moirai. But that eating food there was why she had to go back can be found in the source already cited there (Gantz), and I've now added back the needed connection. Paul August &#9742; 20:34, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

"Modern reception"
This section needs to be either rewritten or removed entirely. Currently it only contains a reference to a Stravinsky work and a few completely arbitrary mentions of irrelevant YA novels. It reeks of viral marketing, I'm surprised that something like this gone unnoticed on a fairly important article. Gunner313 (talk) 00:03, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Variance with Encyclopeadia Brittanica
This article refers to the Plain of Mynah, but the Encyclopeadia Brittanica says it was the Vale of Mynah. 81.140.1.129 (talk) 16:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The meanings of the words "vale" and "plain" often overlap. In this context, they mean essentially the same thing. The difference is more a nitpicky matter of vocabulary than any actual discrepancy of meaning. --Katolophyromai (talk) 20:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

"Origin story of the seasons"
This is only one theory, that this is etiological. There are discrepancies. in versions of the myth, Persephone goes to the underworld in what we would consider winter, November to February, however that is the rainy period in Greece, when the grain grows. It's clear from the existence of those versions of the myths that simply calling this myth an etiology for the "seasons" is incomplete and possibly incorrect.

The months she is often said to be underground match the flood period in Mesopotamia, which makes sense as one of the possible origins of this myth is the mesopotamian myths about Inanna/Ishtar and Dumuzi/Tammuz. Something to think about at least. The article simply states that "this is an origin myth." In reality, it's not clear that it is, and "origin myth" should be changed to Etiology.

my 2 centimes

One theory is that the myth was adapted by the time of the homeric hymns to represent more the experience of marriage. From a mother's perspective, when a young girl is married, usually to a much older man, she is whisked away never to be seen again. In ancient greece, a wife enters the sphere of her husband's household, and is completely disconnected from her household. The process of grieving Demeter goes through shows phases of anger, sadness, and acceptance. These are not present in analogues from the near east. So again, it's just unfair to say "this is an origin myth about blah blah"

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.49.244.115 (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Just so you know, the seasons during 1st millennium BC and 2nd millennium BC did not take place in the same months as they do for us today in the 21st century. This is due to precession, a wobbling motion of the earth much like that of a wobbling top. Precession also shifts the seasons. This 'wobbling' means we experience seasonal differences in temperature in the northern and southern hemisphere. However, it is not common knowledge that spring comes 20 minutes earlier each year. In 13,000 years, winter will come in June; summer, in December. We're in a 26,000 year cycle, and it will take that long to get back to having our seasons start at the same date each year (as far as the meteorological reckoning of seasonal dates are concerned). Doing the math, this means seasons start 1 day earlier every 72 years.

So, let's say for example we wanted to know the months of the year when winter took place for Homer around 800 BC. That's 2818 years ago, which divided by 72 is 39.13 days. Today in Greece the winter begins in late November, but in 800 BC it started as early to mid-October, perhaps even earlier since seasons do fluctuate a little each year based on factors other than the sun. As far as Crete is concerned, there really are just two long seasons, summer and winter. If you go back to the height of the Middle Minoan III, you're looking at summer's transition into winter up to 49.3 days earlier (early October) than today on Crete. Winter for Homer is actually approximately mid-October to early-January.

The productive season on Greece, and Crete especially, is winter (along with the transitional seasons of spring and autumn), which is fairly mild, with bouts of rain and during the peak of winter are there strong wind storms for the south coasts. Summer is the "dying" month, when the oppressive heat and drought of summer limit outdoor activity particularly during the two month peak in the middle of summer. So it is the time to make offerings to the fertility gods seeking rain and good harvests. This is the time that gods like Dionysus and Adonis were entreated by sacrfices and offerings. So it would indeed make sense that Persephone's time in the underworld was during summer, if you're from Crete that is. I think those of us from more temperate zones with out more extreme seasons let that color our thinking on summer and winter and not see them the way the Greeks and Minoans experienced them. However, this does not invalidate the etiological connection between Persephone and the seasons, just corrects the common misconception of winter being the dying season. 74.96.211.207 (talk) 08:26, 31 January 2018 (UTC)Rod.

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