Talk:Perseveration

Perseveration and electronic music
Is there a link between perseveration and repetitive electronic music styles? i.e., is the same part of the brain affected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.112.151 (talk) 14:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Asperger example
The Asperger example doesn't seem very explanatory to the people who wouldn't know anything about it already. I'd suggest expanding or rewriting. --OGoncho (talk) 04:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Clarity
"If an issue has been fully explored and discussed to a point of resolution it is not uncommon for something to trigger the re-investigation of the matter. This can happen at any time during a conversation. This is particularly true with those who have had traumatic brain injuries."

This is well nigh impossible to decipher. Can someone please provide a translation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.88.112.253 (talk) 01:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with above point. May have a meaning but that is guesswork. Meaning has neither been clarified adequately nor scientifically verified, the three sentences quoted above belong in "Talk" imho,not in the article itself. User Sal62.178.71.99 (talk) 08:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

== Brain damage? ==

So if I persevere after a girl I love, I must have brain damage? If anti-vandals on Wikipedia persevere in reverting vandalism, they have brain damage? Where's the common sense in that? --Anime Addict AA (talk) 17:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I am addressing the user complaint above. By helping to clarify an issue to the user, I hope both of us, and all users and authors, can benefit. I am a smart guy with a lot of brain damage, so let me help frame the issues more.

Merely to peservere is not to perseverate. Obsession after rejection by a partner could mean many things, including you are a nice guy but somewhat dependent. Fine. No labels for that. It depends on how long and how intensely one is obsessed; and whether the same sort of thing has been happening over and over again; and whether whatever. It is not in the intended sphere of this word unless you cannot resist talking about her even after your friends said to "shut up already about her." That might be interpreted as perseveration by a professional. You have to seem unable to stop despite knowing you are likely wasting your time AND likely incurring a penalty of some sort. But there you go again. THAT is to perseverate.

The example(s) given in the article give one the sense of a tic almost, like compulsively brushing ones hair aside, even after losing all of it. However, the example of the conversation was more helpful; indeed, it was brilliant. It provided a picture of "a person with a real physical problem" and not merely someone who resists compliance with authoritarian expectations in a given context. Many professionals would probably agree there are places in the DSM that seem like they written by the secret police. These are the weakest parts where social misfits are whatever you say they are, then grouped with serial killers.

Note that when persevere and perseverate are wrung through just one verbal conversion, we get "perseveration" which embraces all of these related meanings: 1. (from psychology), 2. (from psychology), and 3. The act or an instance of persevering; perseverance. ...to quote the WikiDictionary.

Thus, users should expect the next author to help by providing

(1) more examples, especially different types, as appropriate, and

(2) better distinction for users between this "loss of control" and it's very opposite: simply trying as hard as you can.

--JimRodgers (talk) 21:08, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Source of the term?
When was the term coined? Looking at the Wiktionary entry for "-ate," it doesn't seem to often be attached to verbs to make other verbs. I never really understood it, etymologically or otherwise, when I was growing up, despite being frequently chided for it. Best as I could tell, it meant "like perseverance, except I don't like you doing it." --Shay Guy (talk) 19:12, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It might be taken from a German word, which was common in the mid-1900s in psychology.  — Soap  —  15:27, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Aspie Trait
Although original reference was removed, perseverative conversations (and actions) are common to many Aspergers patients and it is widely described as such (and is distinct from OCD), such behaviour is also used as an aid to spotting AS spectrum children. At some point a good reference should go back in, but I'm not familiar enough with this to do a acceptable job on it; a couple of possible refs:   —Preceding unsigned comment added by EasyTarget (talk • contribs) 18:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * this makes more sense in the article about AS than in this article--81.84.110.111 (talk) 23:45, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Perseveration vs. perseverance
It seems that most of the comments on this talk page relate in one way or another to people failing to distinguish between the etymologically related--but nonetheless very distinct--words "persevere" and "perseverate". Could we add the "not to be confused with" (or whatever it's called) template to the top with "perseverance" as the variable value? (perhaps unsurprisingly, there is no dedicated WP page for the term "perseverance" itself, but maybe the text could hyperlink to the wiktionary page? I am not familiar with how this particular template works...) YarLucebith (talk) 05:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Cognitive..
User:Mountain9 it isn't clear to me what you are after with this diff and this diff, with "However, in animal experiments it can be demonstrated that perseveration is a cognitive rather than a motor disorder." Are you trying to make some contrast with the other disorders listed there? Pinging User:Permstrump who may have useful input here... Jytdog (talk) 20:18, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Since that study is pretty old and it's an animal study, it's probably not a great source to use here. The study seems to be about amphetamine's effect on perseveration and not perseveration in general and it also says, "In man there is evidence that amphetamine induces motor stereotypy (Rylander 1971) and affects cognitive functions, e.g. 'focussing of attention' (Robbins and Sahakian 1979)." In papers, "perseveration" is usually used with other qualifiers like "verbal perseveration", "cognitive perseveration", "motor perseveration", etc., so it doesn't seem accurate to say it's entirely cognitive. —PermStrump  ( talk )  22:06, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

It seemed to me that the section Confounds was very short and rather negative, stating merely that perseveration could be confused with habitual behaviours in clinical conditions. My point was that it is possible to devise experiments that will demonstrate whether a repetitive behaviour was a cognitive perseveration or a motor stereotypy. For example, the perseveration seen in animals under low doses of amphetamine has been differentiated from motor repetition (Ridley et al 1981). This reference holds a position similar to ref 7 (Iversen and Mishkin 1970) in the Wiki article where an example is needed to support a factual statement. With respect to PermStumps comments, yes this is an animal study – experiments in animals are often used when clinical conditions produce irresolvable confounds. The study is about differentiating between cognition and motor activity and this is a logical distinction irrespective of the species under study. Ridley et al 1981 is an old paper but so is ref7 In the Wiki article (1971). A scientific finding doesn’t become invalid after a number of years. Yes, Rylander showed that at high dosed amphetamine may induce motor stereotypy and Robbins argued that low doses of amphetamine produce focussed attention which is a cognitive attribute but neither Rylander nor Robbins address the issue of how to resolve a potential confound between cognition and motor repetition. In Ridley et al 1981 the animals did not exhibit perseveration until treated with low doses of amphetamine, i.e, amphetamine did not affect perseveration – it generated it dose dependently. But that was a prerequisite of the experiment, not the point of the experiment. The question was – can the confound be resolved through experimental design? The animals in Ridley et al 1981 had to change their motor behaviour in order to perseverate with an arbitrary object preference. This resolves the confound. Although ‘motor perseveration’ is sometimes used instead of ‘stereotypy’ this is arguably part of the confound. Indeed, the first paragraph of the Wiki Perseveration page is rather muddled on this issue and, itself, repetitive. I could clean it up but want to get the current issue resolved first. I have taken the time to read you article on NPOV and consensus, which I find interesting and helpful. Although I substantially agree, review articles can sometimes be partisan and occasionally generate much quoted consensus views that are not actually supported by the original data. I feel a bit uncomfortable when I come across scientific facts on Wikipedia or elsewhere that do not have a supporting reference for those who wish to follow the matter up further. I agree that my attempt to substitute a review article, as suggested, was not successful. I don’t think there are modern reviews of this issue. Can I suggest the following? Confounds (conditions with similar appearing symptoms) Perseveration may be confused with habitual behaviours in a number of other conditions and disorders, such as obsessive–compulsive disorder, including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), body dysmorphic disorder, trichotillomania, and habit problems. However, in animal experiments it can be shown when repetitive behaviour is a cognitive perseveration rather than a motor disorder. For example, under low doses of amphetamine an animal will perseverate in maintaining an arbitrary object preference even when different motor responses are required to maintain that preference. (Ridley et al 1981)Mountain9 (talk) 20:22, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

In ADHD
I removed the sentence "The resistance to transition may be a coping mechanism or the brain's method to compensate for the lack of ability to regulate the application of attention" as the "resistance to transition" is not a coping mechanism or a compensation for the lack of ability to switch attention, it is that disability. It must be understood that ADHD, the so-called "attention deficit" disorder, is a deficit in attentional control. The condition is demonstrated by a difficulty with setting focus to something that's uninteresting (bad), a difficulty with removing focus from something that's interesting but inappropriate (bad), a difficulty with removing focus from something that's interesting and useful (good, but not so good when it causes self-neglect such as not eating, suffering an overfull bladder, not going to bed, etc). Which reminds me, I really must stop reading Wikipedia, go and get some food and then go to bed. ;o) 92.13.59.35 (talk) 00:30, 28 April 2018 (UTC)