Talk:Persian Gulf naming dispute/Archive 2

what people must know
well i'm a malaysian guy and i have to say what i really see, if we look to The total length of the Gulf coast about 3300 meters, the share of Iran which has about one third only and the rest belongs to arab countries, also if we will look to the side of Iran we will find them arab people persianized but originally they are an arab people who want to get out of the iranian government and make their own arabic country. more over look to the Roman & Ottman Epires and u will not find the name "persian" also because i understand arabic i checked in this site what is written in arabic then i found the map was using the term "Sein Arabique" then i wish that my arab friend get the name because in the time while the persian empire was strong they change that name while they was in golden age it doesnt give them the right to make it standred name.

false allegations
False alleations and fake maps have been answered []. --alidoostzadeh 22:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please don't delete information, maps, documents and historical citing from ancient historian without cosulting other editors of this page ahead. This is organized vandalizing! You mentioned a website that is Iranian and represent Iran's POV and cannot be neutral or reliable to judge a "fake map"!!!. Wikipedia and not affiliated to the Iranian government and doesn't represent one-side of ideology. This page is semi-protected not to be destroyed or vandalized by IP address users. As editors here, you should not praise such behavior and immediately revert the page to its last preview. Radical changes to refelect one-POV is not accepted. This behavior is going to be reported to Wikipedia adminstrators. Please consider helping instead of damaging or orienting. Ralhazzaa 09:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The maps you have presented aren't anything new Ralhazaa. I can't believe people keep having the same discussions in this talk page over and over again. and everytime the discussions reach the same conclusion, but then after a couple of weeks another person starts the same pointless round of edits. To be very brief (these have been discussed in length in different sections of the talk page and it's archives): 1. The maps you mentioned were proven to be inaccurate and were corrected in their later versions. verified through several articles and sources.  2. The UN resolution you mentioned does not pertain to "international" bodies of water, but to bodies of water that are shared between two or more countries. There is a difference. For example Shat-al-Arab is a river which falls under that category. But international waters do not fall under that category and the UN geographical names committee approves the standard  international name for them. Barnetj 14:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * To ralhazza. First of all we have discussed all issues here.  There does not exist a single textual evidence for Arabian Gulf.  We have about 300+ maps and 8 maps you brought from different books all have maps of Persian Gulf and their newer edition have been corrected.  It is all there and you can not insert a POV without discussion.  Read it again: [].  Why aren't you bringing newer maps from the newer editions of those books and mentioning that texts calls it Persian Gulf?  --alidoostzadeh 14:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Perfect truth is not attainable like this. Show all POVs boys!
Hi all,

In this page, ancient referential maps, citations from historical books, UN resolutions and policies is going to be added in brief to balance and neutralize this page, as many users wanted through this talk, considering the policies of editing on Wikipedia. Evaluating “Undue weight” cannot not to be decided only by small group of users, logically. These maps are going to show different side of information and represent different POV (not just by Arabs). Medieval maps, classical history references, UN organization reports related to solving dispute in geographical naming should show both POV for giving more neutrality in this page. Other users are required not to violate the using of references by saying "It is incorrect!" or "False" as long as it is apparently Ancient, Referential, Internationally Accepted and Used, Showing different POV(s) and Neutral. References should have adequate level of credibility and neutrality of author/source/provider/maker. Questionable references is something like this one as it is prepared by one side of the dispute (in this one it is Iranian website) and cannot be relied on as a neutral evidence. You are not preaching in a jungle here, gentelmen! Arabic name is going to be added in Arabic according to its usage by Arabic speakers. None Arabic speakers or non-Arab ethnic people are asked not to violate the right of Arabs, as having a considerable space of this sea, in indicating the name of this shared territory in Arabic language. Other translation not used in Arabic language should not be according to political transliteration. Please note that Translation is different from Transliteration. When a report is misinterpreted, original reference should be provided (like: saying "The use of the name 'Arabian Gulf' was described to be "faulty" was pretended to be extracted from one UN report. But when going back to that report, no word is found related to this case". Hence, original report/work/reference should be provided instead).

Please don’t do any changes according to political/ideological/personal purposes. Suppressing information or violating cultural rights and heritage for other nations/cultures/ethnic groups is highly offensive and sensitive as some users editing this page have repeatedly abused other POVs. Offending other’s right to edit this page in neutral and academic way in this page (and related pages) is going to be reported to administration of Wikipedia directly. Please be scientific, neutral, open-minded and not bigot at all before any changes. This Edit War should be ended someway in a middle and neutral point. Ralhazzaa 10:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you're misrepresenting the concept of "neutrality". Neutrality, does not mean dividing something in half. If statement A is correct and statement B is incorrect, then being neutral would exactly mean saying that  "A is correct and  B is not". You make it sound like the name of this gulf has to be divided between Persians and Arabs or something like that, in order for this article to be neutral. From your edits you seem to be a generally reasonable person. Do you deny any of the following facts:
 * 1. The term Persian Gulf has been the most common name for this gulf throughout the world, for over 2000 years
 * 2. The United Nations has always (from the beginning of it's establishment up to the present time) considered Persian Gulf as the standard geographical name for this body of water.
 * 3. In addition to the U.N., the most reliable and most credible sources in the world (including atlases such as the National Geographic, governments such as the U.S. and the U.K.) use the name Persian Gulf as the standard name for this international body of water.
 * Do you deny any of the above facts? What would be accomplished by starting another round of edit wars? The article recognizes that Arab countries have their own name for this gulf and that's all there is to it. On a separate personal note, I would like to say to you Ralhazaa, that I strongly disagree with your implicit argument about Arab countries having the right to change the name because they have half of the Persian Gulf coast. Accepting such argument would mean that Iran can rename the Oman Sea to the Iran Sea etc. etc. This can not be an acceptable argument for changing the name of an international body of water. Barnetj 18:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually the reference here is from published sources: [[]] with exact maps and texts. There is not a single POV in there.  There is not a single textual evidence for the name Arabic Gulf before the era of Nasser.  Neither in Arabic or in English.  I have only seen 8 maps but in the page here: [] newer maps from newer editions and exact texts have been brought and have totally refuted any false claim.  --alidoostzadeh 00:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I honestly have no knowledge of the dispute and I haven't read the lengthy discussions above, but I know one thing — this article is not the place to settle the dispute, it is only there to provide informational and educational facts about the history and viewpoints of both sides of the dispute. This means that people shouldn't use this article to push their points of view, but rather try to present the many different PoVs, of course with proper references and a neutral tone. - An as  talk? 13:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I totally agree and I believe the current version of the article satisfies those criteria. Barnetj 16:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know why some users here will keep insisting that others are mentaly immature! How can a person violate and offense the human heritage like what I read in the repeatedly used webpage []? How can a mediveal maps printed and reprinted hundreds of times and used since more than 500 years ago in references could be claimed as "Error" and falsified so easily? Is this really an "academic reference"? Who is this "Dr. Cyrus Alai" to disprove a 500 years cartography masterpieces just becuase he didn't like to confess that it is a historical fact Persian name is also has been called as "Arabian Gulf" since centuries, just like the English Channel, Falkland Isles, The Japan Sea has other names used by other nations sharing these parts of the world. How funny to hear that "newer" versions ofthese maps are available now! how update these maps as long as maker went in one-way heavenly trip hundreds of years ago?? do I have schizophrenia or some one turn off lights?!! This website and mentioned page is biased as website is Iranian and "Drs" talking in this page are not Brazilians! It is not reasonable to keep falsifying references just for political sake. A Roman historian mentioned it as Arabian Gulf since 2000 years is not enough? It has a naming conflict, but this shouldn't lead to ideological war! I really don't understand why Iranians denying history and human heritage here. This is Wikipedia.. all available info should be included. As for Turkish page has call it Basra Gulf, as it is called in Turkish language, it also has a name referred to by Arabs and some others -since centuries- as Arabian Gulf. It is also not understood how there was nothing called Arabian Gulf before Nasser! if Pliny the Younger lived in 50's AC and Nasser lived in 1950's AC, who need a calculater? Who dare to deny that UN is calling it Arabian Gulf in one of its official languages? Who can seize the right of Arabs in using their language in the way they want? What is the point of keep denying significant part of this water body's history?
 * In brief, I never agree that recent article is neutral and showing all information and PoVs. This article in recent case is directed to reflect one-side political PoV and supress other PoVs. It is not qualified in this case to be on Wikipedia at all as it is violating cultural rights of other nations and offense true human history as it cut off the complete & true geo-history of this place. Ralhazzaa 17:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ralhazzaa, please try to calm down. Nothing is worth the stress. The best approach to solve this dispute would be to head to WP:RFC and request some attention. All the best. - An as  talk? 18:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ralhazzaa, nobody can seize the right of Arabs in using their language in the way they want. However this isn't the Arabic Wikipedia, and the article must focus on the subject of *the naming of this gulf in the English language*. The article makes it very clear that almost all Arabs use the term Arabian Gulf in their own language. Barnetj 19:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ralhazza, Dr. Cyrus Alai's book is in every major university. He  has PhD and is a master of cartography.  Also the maps from 8 contested authors have Persian Gulf in all of their editions as well and use Persian Gulf in their text and their later editions has only Persian Gulf.  It is published by Brill Academic Publishers. .  Note the other link with over 300+ maps of Persian Gulf only.  Pliny also uses Persian Gulf for Persian Gulf and uses Arabian Gulf for the red sea.--alidoostzadeh 23:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Already resolved dispute
Just for the record, I support User:Pejman47 for removing the neutrality tag that is being inserted into the article by User:Ralhazzaa. As I've tried to explain before, Ralhazzaa is bringing forth some arguments that have already been discussed in the talk page and have been resolved in the past. He has not introduced any new sources and is repeating previously addressed issues. Surely wikipedia rules do not allow a neutrality tag to be added, unless a new dispute or at least new sources regarding an old dispute are introduced. Barnetj 20:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Furthermore he claimed Pliny used Arabian Gulf for Persian Gulf where-as we can read clearly that was not the case. . --alidoostzadeh 01:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm, no. The dispute is clearly not resolved, as evident by this very talk page. Asabbagh 01:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact is Persian Gulf is the English common name. Also whereas Persian Gulf is used in Arabic classical sources, there is no mention of Arabian Gulf until 50 years ago.  We can put Arabian Gulf (only in the last 50 years used by Arabs) somewhere, but not in the begining.    --alidoostzadeh 02:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Tag
I have been requested to restore the neutrality please indicate your thoughts on the matter. If you support the tag, please propose edits that make the article neutral Alex Bakharev 10:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree to restore the tag neutrality as the article is highly biased and has no NPOV in its current form. Ralhazzaa 11:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * please answer the question rather than saying you don't like this version. By the way did you read the entire talk page?--Pejman47 12:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Conditional agreement - The purpose of this article is to present and explain the controversy over the naming of the gulf. Therefore, it would be weird if such an article keeps a NPOV tag. However, i agree to restore the tag for a simple reason: The overview section is unreferenced. Once it is referenced, the tag should be removed. --  FayssalF  - Wiki me up ®  12:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No tag is needed. I agree with Pejman47, User:Ralhazzaa hasn't brought anything new to the discussion that hasn't already been refuted with valid references. Disruptive usage of tags to take articles hostage is not appropriate. I'd like to also add that User:Ralhazzaa has been spamming talk pages of articles on Arabic Wikipedia to recruit meat-puppets for the disruption of this article and Persian Gulf over here in English wikipedia, which also explains the recent surge of vandalism on this article . He was already warned about such behavior on English Wikipedia, so now he's doing it over there on Arabic Wikipedia. --Mardavich 12:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No tag is needed. for reasons that i have explained several times in the last 2 days. (see the 3 sections above). Barnetj 12:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree, first the party who said that article needs that tag: should clearly say what part of it is unnatural and bring some new sources other than what mentioned or discussed in this talk page before. any way, I think it is not wise to edit the protected article with the exception of vandalism and BLP via ORTS. --Pejman47 14:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No tag is needed. Do not discredit the article by inappropriate tags. The article has already supported by several valid references. There is nothing new for the discussion.-- behmod  talk  15:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Nota bena: I'm not anyone's puppet of course, I'm not heavily contributing to the en.wp but I make an edit here and there every once and a while..--Alnokta 15:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Support The introduction of the article is biased and contains un-sourced statement. however, along with the emergence of pan-Arabism and Arab nationalism, has seen the name Arabian Gulf become predominant in some Arab countries. yep, right..you add this which is an anti-statement to the previous one!. and again; 'inside' the article, it says again and with the rise of Arab nationalism,, you make it sound like a new idea the arabs found and decided to use it.. and where is the view point of the arabs? it just states a little thing about uae and that is it..obviously, this article is fabricated somehow and on the watch of every Iranian around here making a strong systemic bias towards persian-related articles, and of course; I have no oppostion to it :) I tried once before(as you can see from page history) but then gave it up..I'm not an edit-war fan..I also tried to include both names in the title but I was speedy-reverted :( ... this article needs someone who don't know arabs or iranians with good NPOV history to edit the article..not people from iran and from the arabs..and by the way, this isn't voting!..it is a call for opinion by alex..you got my opinion..


 * No tag is needed. The language of the article is in fact very balanced, I would even say exemplary considering the difficulty of the topic. It would certainly benefit from inclusion of a larger number of sources, but I don't see any need for a tag at this point. Shervink 17:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)shervink


 * Strongly support tag. Its necessity can be shown by readihng this talk page and its archive, which include several claims that the gallery is a selective and partial presentation of evidence. This is a dispute on the neutrality of the article. As far as I can see, removing the gallery altogether might make a tag unnecessary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Important Upadte : User:Ralhazzaa is still canvassing users on Arabic wikipedia for meat-puppetry purposes on this page. I've been told that User:Ralhazzaa is also canvassing users on IRC chat's Arabic wikipedia channel.--Mardavich 20:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey Mardavich! stop attacking me and fabricate accusations! Can u translate what is written and u considered as meat-puppetry making? Is it my questions to one editor "advice me legal reply" or "how to reply the accusation"? If you are not going to stop your organized personal attack I'll consider it as serious offence. Why u write this here anyway? I have a talk page and other editors have as well! do u have a purpose? Ralhazzaa 20:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No tag is needed - This issue has been discussed so many times. The article is very neutral and explains things in a very straight forward way.Azerbaijani 20:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Disagree No tag is needed.  I have discussed many issues with facts.


 * Strongly support as per Ralhazzaa, Alnokta, and PMAnderson. Asabbagh 04:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Disagree - Tagging of the article is not justified; all the issues have been addressed on the talk page. ← ← Parthian Shot  (Talk)  08:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I don't think the talk page addresses these issues. It contains at least one biased one-sided external link being used as an attempt to present a certain view on the article's content. Most of this page's content talks about the neutrality of this article, and every time a discussion has been started in the past, it died off temporarily only to start again later, with no consensus being reached, so clearly it does not solve these issues. Asabbagh 08:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Support For the reasons that were mentioned in "Other side's POV" I think the article is POV and disputed. Better than adding the tag, it is better that we bring a natural person (not a Persian and not an Arab) to help solving the problem. I'm not an expert but there are many experts in Wikipedia.--Brian Wiseman 22:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

and with the rise of Arab nationalism...
OK, so far the only non-neutral phrase that was identified is and with the rise of Arab nationalism. This is an opinion while reasonably obvious is not supported by references. Would the supporters of the tag agree that the article is neutral if we drop the clause? Is dropping the clause is agreeable for the opposers to the tag? Alex Bakharev 22:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually it is supported by reference. One quote says it is due to political reason.  --alidoostzadeh 23:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a statement of facts and well documented:
 * "The Arab-Iranian nomenclatural controversy over the Gulf, which was so bitter in the late 50s and early 60s, was a by-product of the late President Nasser of Egypt's brand of Arab nationalism ... 'Arabian Gulf' is in fact a recent Arab appellation for that body of water..."
 * Eilts, Hermann F. "Security Considerations in the Persian Gulf." International Security, :Vol. 5, No. 2. (Autumn, 1980), pp. 79-113. :
 * Kaveh 23:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that should be mentioned in the article. --alidoostzadeh 23:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * (with the rise of Arab nationalism) should be removed also the new Arabic name should be mentioned at the top as well as the Persian name. It's not wikipedia work to take side by side, this name exists therefore should be mentioned. The last point I do not want to start a new edit-war because simply a lot of Arab-Persian-related articles are highly vandalized and the same users and (admin) are repeating the same action Please do not bite the newcomers for some reason--Aziz1005 23:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Kaveh just brought a new source with regards to rise of Arab nationalism.  You do not find a single reference to Arabian Gulf prior to the rise of this nationalism in any Arabic text.  Also the common name should be brought first.  --alidoostzadeh 14:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the non-neutrality of this article, I believe that the statement mentioned above is really not the only non-neutral phrase, and in fact I don't know if it is even considered non-neutral. There was indeed, a rise of Arab nationalism, however, what is disputed is whether this nationalism is the reason for the alleged attempt at renaming the gulf, or if the term Arabian gulf has been in use before the 20th century Arab nationalism rise. Also, and as a separate matter, regardless of the source of the naming in Arabic, does wikipedia have any policies regarding this: On en.wk, what is to be reported as the name in language X, the (extremely) common name in language X, or a (rarely used) translation of the English name? For this question I would very much appreciate a response from a neutral and knowledgeable party. Thanks. Asabbagh 05:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think adding the reference provided here (by User:Kaveh) to support the first paragraph, should currently solve the problem. Barnetj 07:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding Asabbagh's comment above, actually what the article says now is that the rise of Pan-Arabism and Arab nationalism "has seen the name Arabian Gulf become predominant in some Arab countries". It does not say that it was non-existent before, only that it was not used as frequently (was not predominant). So it basically implies that it might have been around before but that its use increased with the rise in Arab nationalism. Shervink 09:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

User Ralhazzaa's conduct
It seems that User:Ralhazzaa is knowingly and intentionally conducting disruptive activities in wikipedia. He was given a notice once before, and I also wrote him another warning on his talk page after he continued to ignore the first warning (which was given by another user). If he continues his behavior, does anybody know what would be the proper channel for reporting him as an abuser? Maybe WP:ANI (a community ban could be proposed)? What is the proper action to be taken in these cases? Barnetj 20:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Barnetj, could you please explain why did you posted me a "warning" in my talk page? Is it logical for you to be part of debat and send warnings in the same time? I have different POV, you should respect it. If not, you can't attack me and send warnings of banning. Also, why you are seeking -openly- a support for suggesting a punishmet (You already suggest a ban)? Is it a message for some users? If you are part of the debate, you can't judge my PoV! Admins and editors can trace back my IP and talk to see if there is any vandalizing or clear request for PoV, but not you as part of the debate! Can I consider this as a programmed personal attack by a group of users have opposit PoV? Don't blame me personally if some users are supporting considering this page as disputed and biased.. it is our target to find a NPOV, right? not to accuse clearly and directly (and ask -openly- a punishment!) Ralhazzaa 21:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned on Ralhazzaa's talk page, and in response to your warning, you have assumed that his request for advice on this matter is canvassing. It is not, and asking questions on wikipedia is definitely not something reportable. Thanks. Asabbagh 05:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you take the time to read WP:Canvassing, there it explains where the line between 'friendly notice' is crossed into disruptive canvassing. If you are only contacting users that are thought to have a predetermined opinion on an issue specially if they do not regularly edit an article, then this is canvassing. In this case, you have been contacting Arab users (identifiable based on their usernames or based on their userpages) in the English wikipedia and also users in the Arabic Wikipedia.  Barnetj 07:16, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Other side's POV
Dear admin Alex,

I think citing the name of the Arabian Gulf as a “by-product of Nasser…” is more offensive, improper, fabricated and biased as suggested by user:Kaveh. It is better to choose kind words and be civil toward other nation’s culture, as it could be understood as direct racial behavior and anti-Arabism.

Briefly, to approcah a NPOV, I would like to suggest the following:
 * 1) In the top: “..has been disputed by some Arab countries since the 1960s..” should be adjusted to be “has been a disputed since centuries by countries dominated parts of it” as the naming conflict was between Arabs, Turks and Persians, each side has different naming.
 * 2) In the top: “along with the emergence of pan-Arabism and Arab nationalism, has seen the name Arabian Gulf become predominant in some Arab countries” is political saying proposed by Iran. It is not true and highly offending human history in this area. These words could be understood as Anti-Arabism and “racial”.
 * 3) In the top: reference 9 is non-academic and biased as it was written by an Iranian. Publishing website -itself- disclaimed any adoption of his personal opinion, in bottom of report. So, it is better to be removed.
 * 4) Overview section is clearly biased and anti-Arabism. Resources cited from Roman historian works was claimed as “fake” by some users. I would like to ask you to edit this part toward a NPOV by saying “Over hundreds of years, the name of this body of water was a controversial issue. Many maps used the name "Persian Gulf", while many others call it "the Arabian Gulf". Iranians consider it a "Persian" as it was historically a western coast boundry for Persia as adopted by many Greek geographers like Strabo and Ptolemy, while it is the eastern coast boundry of Arabia. Roman natural philosopher Pliny the Younger mentioned it in his book "The Natural History" as the "Arabian Gulf"
 * 5) In the Overview: 3rd line re-mention: “by the 1960s and with the rise of Arab nationalism, some Arab countries, including the ones bordering the Persian Gulf, adopted widespread use of the term "الخليج العربي" (al-Khalīj al-'Arabī; Arab Gulf or Arabian Gulf)”, that is incorrect. Naming this waterway as Arabian Gulf by Arabs was since centuries. This paragraph should be adjusted.
 * 6) In the Overview: 2nd paragraph saying: “Until the end of the 19th century, "Arabian Gulf" was used to refer to what is now known as the Red Sea.” This sentence is incorrect. Many ancient references and maps indictaed the name of this water body as “Sinus Arabicus”. It could be confliceted in some maps with Red Sea, but not basically used. That’s why it is a dispute.
 * 7) In the Cartographical gallery: this shouldn’t be a map-show-war! I previously included 3 maps here indicating this place as “Sinus Arabicus” but it was reverted immediately by other users. Some of them said that these medieval maps are fake and incorrect. Some other users said it has been “corrected”! Could anyone rely on a book says: we corrected this medieval map? It is like a Chinese man wake up one morning and say: I discovered constructional mistake in the Egyptian pyramids and it should be corrected!
 * 8) Cartographical gallery shouldn’t be a “gallery” of dozens of maps. NPOV is enough with 2-3 maps from each side (equally). I already have dozens of ancient maps calling this sea as the Arabian Gulf but it is pointless to get in edit & deletion war. You can find 3 maps uploaded to Wiki [Image:Arabian Gulf(Jollain).jpg], [Image:PERSICI VEL SOPHORUM REGNI TYPUS 1587.jpg], and [Image:Turkish Empire 1606.jpg]. I prefer uploading these 3 maps here, and keeping just 3 maps of other POV to get more neutral page.
 * 9) Viewpoint of Arab states: shouldn’t include “the UAE have even banned the use of the term "Persian Gulf" across their country. In the UAE this ban applies to textbooks, publications and newspapers among others.” unless it is also mentioned in the same way in “Viewpoint of Iran” above that “Iran bans the use of Arabian Gulf term and this ban extends to text books, local media and international media as well”. it is not enough to let this part explained in “Atlases and other media” section below as it is manipulated hiding of information, in my opinion.
 * 10) Viewpoints of third parties: in the “United Nations” subsection, I would like it to be more biased by elucidating that: Earlier, the United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN) was set up by the secretary-general of the United Nations in pursuance of economic and Social council resolution 715A(XXVII) on April 23, 1959 and has endorsed 'Persian Gulf' as the official name for this body of water [ http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/maplib/docs/escwa.pdf]. Later, UNGEGN adopted resolution II/25 named: Names of features beyond a single sovereignty  that said: "when countries sharing a given geographical feature and having different official languages do not succeed in agreeing on a common name form, it should be a general rule of international cartography that the name forms of each of the languages in question should be accepted". The United Nations transcripts and website only uses the term “Arabian Gulf” when presenting transcripts of speeches by Arab delegates . Most recently, the UN Secretariat has issued two editorial directives in 1994 and 1999 describing it as "Persian" gulf. [ http://www.marzeporgohar.org/folders/folder_10/Persiangulf.pdf]. The group discussed the naming issue during its 23rd session, held in Vienna from March 28th to April 4th, 2006. According to the report of the meeting, the Convenor "noted that countries could not be prohibited from using or creating exonyms"[ http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/iran.pdf]. In the last, Eighth, meeting for the United Nations Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names, Berlin, 27 August September 2002, the controversy of using of the name 'Arabian Gulf' or 'Persian Gulf' has not been mentioned in the conference's final report.

Rest of article could be left as it is to reflect that major name of this sea is Persian Gulf, but it is also widely accepted as Arabian Gulf since thousands of years.

This is my POV, and hope it can help to reach a NOPV in this page and related pages.

Considering this suggested editing is highly requested to settle down this discussion. Otherwise, my objection still running on this disputed article and I consider it highly biased, violating human history, violating Arab culture and right, has geopolitical background and one-sided and should be tagged as biased.

Herewith, I would like to express my wish to start an initiative of throwing away all personal/national sensitivities across Wikipedia with Iranian colleagues, and start a collective collaboration help to provide better and neutral information.

Respectfully Ralhazzaa 10:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I was not waiting your below response, alidoostzadeh, as basically I was talking with admin Alex! Why did you posted: "and here is a response" below my post to admin? Was I waiting your response? definitely not! Do you want to open an edit-war even in the talk page? I'll not be part of it. If you couldn't see that Pliny said: Charax is a city situate at the furthest extremity of the Arabian Gulf, at which begins the more prominent portion of Arabia Felix: it is built on an artificial elevation, having the Tigris on the right, and the Eulaeus on the left then I recommend you to read it again and better not to accuse me "distortion" or "false". As you denied dozens of maps to mention Arabian Gulf, I'm kindly asking you to spend few minutes here but don't use ready-made accusation to deny & offense human history. I just posted our POV in this page so admin Alex can see and neutralize the page(s) related. Anyway, thanks alidoostzadeh for your -indirect- confirming the dispute in this page as I asked to be tagged as biased, and clear violation of Arabs cultural rights below, that should be considered thoroughy by admins of Wikipedia. Ralhazzaa 06:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have the right to respond here and specially when you are not representing Pliny correctly. And no you can't edit war on the talk page because you should not r.v. on the talk page!  Again why are you ignoring clear references to Persian Gulf in Pliny and misinterpreting him.  There is no dispute but only your mis-reading of Pliny.  It is  becoming very clear that you are not interested in unbiased view.  I think for all readers is clear. Pliny did not have sattelite map back then.  Elaues is a Greek city in Aegean.  Thus between Tigris and Elaues he means red sea and not Persian Gulf as both of these are to the left of the Persian Gulf.  Note Tigris is to the Left of Persian Gulf and not to its Right.  Please read it again until you understand this point. [].  Note it says: The one which lies to east is called PERSIAN GULF, and is two thousand five hundred miles in circumference, according to Erasthenes.  Opposite to it lies Arabia, the length of which  is fifteen hundred miles.  On the other side again, Arabia is bounded by Arabian Gulf'.  I believe that is very clear.  Now again from the link you brought: By descending the Indus, and going up the Persian Gulf. .  Excerpt from Natural History, Book VI – Chapter: The Persian and the Arabian Gulfs (Refer to Book VI. 109 - 111 in Loeb edition..).  Again another except: We learn from Ephorus, as well as Eudoxus and Timosthenes, tht there are great numbers of islands scattered all over this sea; Clitarchus says that king Alexander was informed of an island so rich that the inhabitants gave a talent of gold for a horse, and of another* upon which there was found a sacred mountain, shaded with a grove, the trees of which emitted odours of wondrous sweetness; this last was situate over against the Persian Gulf.  Note Pliny did not have a sattelite map and the world might have looked different to him.  But he is following the correct Greek tradition (Strabo too) of calling Persian Gulf by Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf as red sea.  So Arabian Gulf is Red Sea as it is in Stabo.  As per that site which does not state its sources, it has been responded to in detail here:  1) all those authors clearly mention Persian Gulf in their text (as shown in the link).  There is absolutely no textual evidence whatsoever for the name of Arabian Gulf in reference to Persian Gulf.   2) the same editions of those books have maps of Persian Gulf which contradicts your assertion.  3) Newer editions of the same atlases published by those authors have Persian Gulf.   A few old edition atlases by Hondius made a cartographic mistake having both Persian Gulf and Arabian gulf but nevertheless using Persian Gulf in their text clearly.  Note textual evidence should come with any atlas which you lack.  And of course we saw how Assyria was put in Central Persia or the red sea was placed in various locations from Indian Ocean to below the horn of Africa to the red Sea.  Later editions were corrected and thus such a cartographic mistake does not constitute any proof for historical precedence with regards to the non-historical name of Arabian Gulf.    Newer editions of the same atlases have fixed their mistake and thus showing clearly that there is no precedence for the historically non-legitimate name of Arabian Gulf. One or two map makes made a cartographic mistakes in the same which propagated to several maps.  But in these exact books there are maps with Persian Gulf and all the texts of these books clearly mention the area as Persian Gulf.  One can not ignore the newer editions of atlases by the same author as well as 400+ other authors we already mentioned and also the texts with an atlas. Not a single Arabic text before the era of Arab nationalism has referenced the Persian Gulf as Arabian Gulf.  Readers who are familiar with Arabic might want to read the following link: [].  As per Cartographical gallery.  I will bring 400 maps if necessary.  And from the same books of the authors some are trying to misrepresent by from their newer editions as well as their textual evidence.  NPOV means not giving undue weight.  400+ maps have Persian Gulf, 8 authors have Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf in their old editions, but in their text of the same editions edition they have Persian Gulf.   Later editions of the same maps by those authors have only Persian Gulf as explained by Dr. Cyrs Alai as well:  There is apparently an error in this map regarding the name of the Persian Gulf.   Thus textual evidence is a necessity requirement in examination of these maps.  All editions of Mercator's Geographia contain one map of the world and one of Asia. Following the Ptolemy tradition, in all of these maps the Red Sea and occasionally the Gulf of Aden, is called 'Sinus Arabicus', and the Persian Gulf 'Sinus Persicus'. In the map of Persia included in the Meractor-Hondius atlases, however the Persian Gulf is named 'Sinus Arabicus'. This nomenclature contradicts not only the Ptolemic tradition but also the world map and the map of Asia in the same atlas, both of them surely prepared by Meractor himself. The reason for this disrepency could only be the fact that the map of Persia was not completed and probably not even prepared by Meractor, but by Hondius twelve years after Meractor's death. Hondius or his assistants apparently mixed up the two Ptolemaic terms Sinus Arabicus and Sinus Persicus.  Janssonius must have noticed this error, for he rectified it by using the term 'Sinus Persicus' again for Persian Gulf in his atlases which appeared during the 1640s and later. .  You can not give undue weight to two three maps from the same book that have Persian Gulf in their other maps of the same book and use Persian Gulf in their text as well!  The textual evidence is a key.  Obviously those two three books contradict themselves and thus we need to look at the textual evidence and their newer printing.  The textual evidence alongside their newer printing has only mentioned Persian Gulf.  Furthermore you will not find a single Arabian Source calling the body of the war Arabian Gulf prior to the last century.  This important fact needs to be mentioned as well. Also I consider your views violation of Iranian cultural rights.   --alidoostzadeh 14:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

and here is a response

a) One again the user above who was the cause of the lock up of the article made a mistake. The user above claims: Many maps used the name "Persian Gulf", while many others call it "the Arabian Gulf". Iranians consider it a "Persian" as it was historically a western coast boundry for Persia as adopted by many Greek geographers like Strabo and Ptolemy, while it is the eastern coast boundry of Arabia. Roman natural philosopher Pliny the Younger mentioned it in his book "The Natural History" as the "Arabian Gulf"

That is absolute distortion of the text. The proof he brings is from this link Note Pliny the younger clearly mentions: By descending the Indus, and going up the Persian Gulf. from the same link. He also mentions Arabian Gulf as the red SEA. Just like Pliny the elder mentions Persian Gulf as Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf as the red sea.. Thus the false claim that Pliny used Arabian Gulf for Persian Gulf by user Ralhaza is simply false. Repeating a false claim does not make it true! Fact is there is absolutely not a single classic Greek or Roman author that have used the name Arabian Gulf for Persian Gulf. They have used it for the red sea. So the link he brought contradicts him! Both Pliny's (the younger being an adopted son of the eldar) as can be seen by the above text use Arabian Gulf for Red Sea and Persian Gulf for Persian. Just like Strabo who used Persian Gulf for Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf for read Sea. How can there be any compromise when a reader brings a link which contradicts his position and yet claims that the link supports his position?

b) there is no atlas that mentions Arabian Gulf in its text for Persian Gulf c) the few maps that have Arabian Gulf in their book have Persian Gulf and use Persian Gulf in their text and Maps of Persian Gulf. All the updated versions have Persian Gulf from the same geographers. A comprehensive response is here to the few map the user claims. []. Thus the three maps from the books he brings have Persian Gulf in the same book. Furthermore their text has Persian Gulf only and no mention of Arabian Gulf. Going further, their newer editions have only Persian Gulf.

d) the dispute is recent and political. Arabian Gulf never existed since 1960 in any language for Persian Gulf.    The dispute is about the name.  Ottomons called it Gulf of Basra and Persian Gulf.  They never used Arabian Gulf.

e) All these euoropean map-makes have used Persian Gulf and I can bring map from each one if desired from an academic book I possess.

Strabo [Strabon] (12 B.C-58 A.D/)................................................................... 16

Pomponius Mela (ca. 42 A.D.)........................................................................ ..18

Ptolemy, Claudius (87-150 A.D.).................................................................... ..20

Dionysius Periegetes (2nd Century A.D.).......................................................... 34

Tyre, Marinus of (after 150 A.D.)..................................................................... 35

Heracles, Marcianus of (ca. 330 A.D.).............................................................. 36

Honorius, Julius (Early 5th Century A.D.)......................................................... 37

Orosius (After 417 A.D.)................................................ '................................ 38

Cosmas Indicopleustes (6th Century A.D.)....................................................... 39

Isidore of Seville (560- 636 A.D.).................................................................... 40

Ravenna, (7th Century A.D.)............................................................................. 41

St. Beatus (730-798 A.D.)................................................................................ 44

Chapter II:                                                     '

Persian Gulf in Middle Ages Maps & Muslim Cartographers Works

(From 750 to 1500A.D.)

Al-Khwarezmi, Abu Ja'far Mohammad ibn Musa (780-847 A.D. /164-233 H.)       50

Al-Kindi (801-873 A.D./185-260 H.)............................................................. ...52

Ibn Khordazbeh (820-913 A.D./205-300 H.)................................................... 54

Al-Batani (850-929 A.D./235-317 H.)............................................................. 55

Al-Balkhi (850-934 A.D./235-322 H.)............................................................. 55

Al-Mas'oudi (897-964 A.D./284-353 H.)..................................... ................... 57

Jaihani (Before 922 A.D./310 H.)................................................................ .....59

Al-Istakhri (Before 930-957 A.D./318-346 H.) .............................................. 64

Ibn Howqal (Before 931-988 A.D./320-378 H.)............... ,............................ 74

Al-Maqdesi (946/7-1000 A.D./335-390 H.)..................................................... 77

Ibn Yunos (950-1009 A.D./339-400H.)........................................................... 79

Ikhvan as-Safa (Brothers of Purity, ca.950 A.D./340 H.)................................ 80

Al-Biruni (973-1048 A.D./362-440 H.) ........................................................... 81

Al-Khwarezmi, Abu Abdullah al-Katib (ca. 975-991 A.D./365-381 H.)......... 84

Ibn al-Zarqala (Zarqali) 10?9-1087 A.D./420-480 H.)..................................... 86

Al-Kashqari (Kashghari) 11th century A.D./5th century A.H.).......................... 87

Edrisi (Idrisi, 1100-1160 AJD./493-555 H.) ............. ...................................... 89

Tusi Hamadani (ca. 1160 A.D./555 H.)............................................................ 98

Gervase of Tilbury (ca. 1160-1211 A.D.)....................................................... 100

Ibn al-'Arabi (1165-1240 A.D./560-638H.) ................................................... 101

Al-Faresi, Abu Ali al-Faresi al-Nahvi (ca. 1173 A.D./569 H.) ....................... 102

YaqutHamawi(l 179-1229 A.D./574-626H.) ............................. .!.... :...... ..... 103

Paris, Matthew (ca.l 195-1259 A.D.).............................................................. 104

Tusi, Nasir ed-Din (Khwajeh Nasir Tusi) 1201-1274 A.D./598-673 H.)........ 106

Al-Qazvini (1203-1283 A.D./600-682 H.)...................................................... 111

Ibn Sa'id (1214-1286 A.D./610-683 H.)......................................................... 116

Rubruquis, Guillaume of Rubroek (1220-1293 A.D.).................................... 118

Abul-Fida (1273-1331 A.D./672-732H.)........................................................ 119

Mustawfi, Hamdullah (1281-1349 A.D./680-750 H.) ................................... 120

Richard of Haldingham (13th-14th century A.D.) ........................................... 130

Vesconte, Petrus (14th century A.D.) ............................................................. 132

Ibn Alwardi (1292-1348 A.D./691-749 H.) ................................................... 134

Higden, Randulf (1299-1363 A.D.) .............................................................. 139

Al-Harrani (ca. 1332 A.D./732H.) ................................................................. 140

Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406 A.D./732-808H.).................................................... 142

Ailly, Pierre d' (1350-1420 A.D.)................................................................... 143

Cresques, Abraham (ca. 1375 A.D.) .............................................................. 144

Toscanelli, Paolo del Pozzo (1397-1482 A.D.)............................................... 146

Borgia (ca. 1410 A.D.)................................................................................... 148

Noha, Pirrus de (ca. 1414 A.D.)..................................................................... 149

Buondelmonti, Cristoforo (after 1420 A.D.).................................................. 150

Bianco, Andrea (ca. 1436-1458 A.D.)............................................................ 151

Schedel, Hartmann (1440-1514 A.D.)............................................................ 152

Rosselli, Francisco (1445-1513 A.D.) ............................................................ 154

Vinci Leonardo da (1452-1519 A.D.)............................................................ 156

Behaim, Martin (1459 - 1507 A.D,)................................................................ 157

Mauro, Fra (ca. 1460 A.D.)............................................................................ 159

Cosa, Juan de la (1460-1510 A.D.)................................................................ 160

Waldseemuller, Martin (1470-1518 A.D.)...................................................... 162

Reisch, Gregorius (1470-1525 A.D................................................................ 166

Cabot, Sebastian (1474 - 1557 A.D.)............................................................. 168

Schoner, Johann (1477-1572 A.D.) ............................................................... 170

VI

Buckinck, Arnold[us] (ca. 1478-1508 A.D.)................ .................................. 172

Leo Africanus, Al-Hasan ibn Muhammad al-Vazzan (1483-1552 A.D. / 888-960 H.)       173

Ramusio, Gian Battista (1485-1557 A.D.).................................................. .....174

Martellus, Henricus (Germanus) 15th century A.D.)........................................ 175

Minister, Sebastian (1489-1552 A.D.)............................................................. 177

Fries, Laurent (1490-1532 A.D.)..................................................................... 180

Fine, Orontius Delphinas Finaeus (1494-1555 A.D.)...................................... 184

Homen (Homem), Lopo (1497-1572 A.D.) ................................................ 188

Stabius, Johannes (1497-1522 A.D.)............................................................... 190

Honter [Grass, Honterus], Jan Coronensis (1498-1549 A.D.) ........................ 192

Chapter III:

The Persian Gulf in Geographical Maps of the Renaissance Period

(From 1500 to 1800 A.D.)

Santa Cruz, Alonso de (1500-1572 A.D.)....................................................... 198

Stumpff [ius], Johannes (1500-1578 A.D.)..................................................... 198

Gastaldi, Giacomo [Jacopo] (ca. 1500-1565 A.D.)......................................... 199

Apianus, Petrus (1501-1552 A.D.).................................................................. 204

Jode, Gerard (1501-1591 A.D.)...................................................................... 206

King Hamy Map (ca. 1502 A.D.).................................................. ■.............. 207

Maggiolo [Maiollo], Vesconte di (1504-1551 A.D.)....................................... 208

Ruscelli, Girolamo (1504-1566 A.D.)............................................................. 209

Contarini, Giovanni Mathew (16th Century A.D.).......................................... 211

Ruysch, Johannes (ca. 1507-1533 A.D.)......................................................... 212

Sylvanus, Bernardus (16th Century A.D.) ...................................................... 213

Mercator, Gerhard (1512-1594 A.D.)............................................................. 215

Vespucci, Juan Giovanni (16th Century A.D.)................................................ 218

Reinel, Jorge (1518-1572 A.D.)...................................................................... 220

Metellus, Johannes Matalus (1520-1597 A.D.) ........................ ,.................... 221

Salviati, Cardinal (16th Century A.D.)............................................................ 222

Ribeiro, Diogo (16th Century A.d!) .............................................................. 224

Ortelius of Antwerp, Abraham (1527-1598 A.D.).......................................... 225

Thome, Robert (16th Century A.D.)................................................................ 233

Rosaccio, Giuseppe (1530-1620 A.D.)........................................................... 233

Homem, Diogo (1530-1576 A.D.) ................................................................. 234

Treschel, Gaspar & Melchior (ca. 1535 A.D.)................................................. 235

Agnese, Battista (1536-1564 A.D.)................................. .,............................. 236

Amman, Jost (1539-1591 A.D.) ....................................... '............................. 239

Anonymous Spanish Cartographer (Ca.1523 A.D.)........................................ 240

Desliens, Nicolas (16th Century A.D.)............................................................. 241

Mercator, Rumold (ca. 1545-1599 A.D.)........................................................ 242

Bunting, Heinrich (1545-1606 A.D.).............................................................. 243

Ghisolfi, Francesco (ca., 1546 A.D.)............................................................... 244

Langenes, Barent (ca.1548- ca.1602 A.D.)..................................................... 245

Al-Sharafi of Safax (Safaquesi) Family (1551-1601 A.D./959-1010 H.) ...... 246

Plancius, Petrus (1552-1622 A.D.).................................................................. 252

Speed, John (1552-1629 A.D.)....................................................................... 253

Magini, Giovanni Antonio (1555-1617 A.D.) ................................................ 255

Wright, Edward (1558-1615 A.D.) ................................................................ 256

Forlani, Paolo (fl.l560-c. 1574 A.D.).............................................................. 258

Hondius, Jodocus (1563-1612 A.D.) ............................................................. 260

Linschoten, Jan Huygen van (1563-1610 A.D.)............................................. 261

Bertius, Petrus (1565-1629 A.D.) .................................................................. 262

Porro, Girolamo (fl. 1567-1599 A.D.)............................................................ 264

Bussemacher, Johannes (fl. 1580-1613 A.D.)................................................ 265

Tavernier, Melchior (the Elder) 1564-1641 A.D............................................. 266

Ziletti, Giordano (ca. 1564-74 A.D.) .................................... ..'...................... 267

Cossin, Jehan (16th Century A.D.).................................................................. 268

Blaeu, Willem Janszoon (1571-1638 A.D.).................................................... 269

Keere, Pieter van den (ca. 1571-1646 A.D.)................................................... 270

Langren, Henricus Florent van (1574-1604 A.D.).......................................... 272

Cluverius, Philippus (1580-1623 A.D.)........................................................... 273

Visscher [Piscator] II, Nicolaes Jansz (1649-1702 A.D.)............................... 274

Valle, Pietro Delia (1586-1625 A.D.)............................................................. 276

Jansonnius, Johannes (1588-1664 A.D.)......................................................... 277

Merian, Matthaus (1593-1650 A.D.).............................................................. 281

Eckebrecht, Philipp (1594-1667 A.D.) .......................................................... 282

Blaeu, Joan (1596-1673 A.D.)........................................................................ 284

16th Century Anonymous Cartographer after Cellarius (ca.1596 A.D.) ........ :;      ,           287

Hondius (Hondio), Henricus (1597-1651 A.D.) ............................................ 288

Olearius, Adam (1599-1671 A.D.)................................................................. 290

Sanson, Nicolas d'Abbeville (1600-1667 A.D.) & Mariette, Pierre (1603-1657 A.D.) .......291

Mallet, Alain Manesson (1603-1706 A.D.) ................................................. ...292

Wit, Frederick de (1610-1698 A.D.).............................................................. 294

Vingboons, Jan [Johannes] (ca. 1617-1670 A.D.).......................................... 296

Verbiest, Ferdinand (1623-1688 A.D.)........................................................... 298

Cassini, Jean-Dominique (1625-1712 A.D.)................................................... 299

Tholing, Theodoros (ca. 1634 A.D.)............................................................... 300

Cellarius [Keller], Christophorus (1638-1707 A.D.) ...................................... 302

Schenk, Pieter (1645-1715 A.D.).................................................................... 303

Fer, Nicolas de (1646-1720 A.D.)............................................................... ....304

Isfahani, Sadeq (ca. 1647 A.D./1057 H.)....................................................... 308

Allard, Carl (1648-1709 A.D.)........................................................................ 309

Rossi, Giovanni Giacomo de (1648-1691 A.D.)............................................. 310

Browne, Christopher (1648-1712 A.D.) ........................................................ 311

Valk, Gerard (1650-1720 A.D.) and Leonard (1675-1755 A.D.)................... 312

Coronelli, Vicenzo Maria (1650-1718 A.D.).................................................. 313

Kaempfer, Engelbert (1651- ca. 1716 A.D.)................................................... 314

Hubert, R. (ca. 1651 A.D.)......................................................................... .....315

Thornton, John (ca. 1652-1701 A.D.)......................................................... .....316

Weigelio (Weigelius), Christophoro, the Elder (1654-1725 A.D.) ................. 318

Keulen, C. van (1654-1715 A.D.) .................................................................. 323

Aa, Pieter van der (1659-1733 A.D.) ............................................................. 324

Blome, Richard (fl. 1660-1705 A.D.) ....................... .................................... 332

Mortier, Pierre (1661-1711 A.D.) ................................................................ ...334

Danckerts, Theodore (1663-ca. 1727 A.D.).................................................... 335

Homann, Johann-Baptist (1663-4- 1724 A.D.)............................................... 337

Seller, John (fl. 1664-1697 A.D.).................................................................... 342

Wells, Edward (1667-1727 A.D.)................................................................... 343

VIII

Petrini, Paolo (ca. 1670- ca. 1718 A.D.).......................................................... 344

Doppelmayer, Johann Gabriel (1671-1750 A.D.)............................................ 345

Calmet, Augustin (1672-1757 A.D.)............................................................... 346

Ibrahim, Efendi, Mutafarrikan (1674-1744 A.D.)........................................ ...348

Lisle (L'Isle), Guillaume de (1675-1726 A.D.) .............................................. 349

Morden, Robert (fl.1675-1703 A.D.).............................................................. 359

Relandus (Reeland), Adrianus (1676-1718 A.D.)........................................... 360

Seutter, Matthaus (1678-1757 A.D.)............................................................... 361

Moll, Herman (1680-1732 A.D.)..................................................................... 362

Hasius, Johann Matthias Hase (1684-1742 A.D.)........................................... 366

Chatelain, Henri Abraham (1684-1743 A.D.)................................................. 367

Mount, Richard and Page, Thomas (fl. 1684-1762 A.D.)............................... 370

Nolin, Jean Baptiste (1686-1762 A.D.)........................................................... 371

Stukeley, Wilhelmus [William] (1687-1765 A.D.).......................................... 373

Robert de Vaugondy, Gilles (1688-1766 A.D.).............................................. 374

Senex, John (fl. 1690-1740 A.D.) .................................................................. 382

Moullart Sanson, Pierre (fl. 1695 - 1730 A. D.).............................................. 385

d'Anville, Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon (1697-1782 A.D.)............................... 386

Prevost, Ant. F. (1697-1763 A.D.).................................................................. 392

Leth, Hendrik de (1703-1766 A.D.)............................................................... 393

Bellin, Jacques Nicolas (1703-1772 A.D.)...................................................... 394

Stackhouse, Thomas (1706-1784 A.D.).......................................................... 398

Tardieu, Pierre- Francois (1711-1771 A.D.).................................................... 400

Kitchin, Thomas (1718-1784 A.D.)............................................................ .....401

European Anonymous 18th Century Cartographer.......................................... 402

Bowen, Emanuel (1720-1767 A.D.)............................................................... .403

Le Rouge, George Louis (1722-1778 A.D.).................................................... 409

Robert de Vaugondy, Didier (1723-1786 A.D.)...................... :..................... 412

Ottens, Reinier (ca. 1723-1765 A.D.) ............................................................ 415

Valentyn, (Valentijn) Francois (ca. 1724-6 A.D.)........................................... 416

Desnos, Louis Charles (1725-1805 A.D.)....................................................... 417

Bonne, Rigobert (1727-1795 A.D.)................................................................. 419

Delahaye, Guillaume Nicolas (1727-1802 A.D.)............................................ .428

Mentelle, Edme (1730-1815 A.D.) ................................................................. 430

Tirion, Isaac (fl. 1732-1769 A.D.)................................................................... 432

Niebuhr, Carsten (1733-1815 A.D.)................................ ,............................... 435

Dalrymple, Alexander (1737-1808 A.D.)....................................................... .436

Delamarche, Charles Francois (1740-1817 A.D.)........................................... 437

La Perouse, Jean- Francois de Galaup, Comte de (17414788 A.D.).............. 440

Janvier, Jean (ca. 1746-1790 A.D.)................................................................. 441

Gibson., John (fl. 1749-1792 A.D.) ............................................................... 443

Bowen, Thomas (1749-1790 A.D.) ................................................................ ...........'          444

Arrowsmith, Aaron (1750-1833 A.D.).......................................................... ..446 '

Schley, Jacob van der (fl. about 1750-1770 A.D.)........................................ ..449

Lotted, Tobiae Conradi (fl. 1750-1777 A.D.)......................................... .........450

Dunn, Samuel (fl. 1751-1794 A.D.)....................................... .............................452.

Rollos, G. (fl. 1754-1789 A.D.)..................................................... ..........:.........457'

Gary, John (fl. 1754-1835 A.D.)..................................................................... 458

Brion de la Tour, Louis (ca. 1756-1823 A.D.)................................................ 459

~   • •        *     -        •      /«    incn   10A/1   A   T^ \                                      4^2

Neel, Samuel John [Neele & Son] (1758-1824 A.D.) .................................... 463

Reichard, Christian Gottieb Theophil (1758-1837 A.D.)............................... 464

Chanlaire, Pierre Gregoire (1758-1817 A.D.)................................................. 466

Pinkerton, John (1758-1826 A.D.).................................................................. 467

Steiler, Adolf (1775-1836 A.D.) .................................................................... 469

Malte-Brun, Conrad (1775-1826 A.D.).......................................................... 470

Lizars, Daniel (fl. 1776-1812 A.D.)................................................................ 471

Santini, P. (fl. 1776-1783 A.D.)...................................................................... 473

Jacques, Nicolas (ca. 1780 A.D.) ................................................................... 474

Menzies, J & G. (1780-ca. 1840 A.D.) ........................................................... ;475

Sauerberg, H. (18th century A.D.) .................................................................. 476

Lucas, Fielding Jr. (1781-1854 A.D.) ............................................................ 477

Stuelpnagel, Fr. von (1781-1865 A.D.) ......................................................... 478

Weiland, Carl Ferdinand (1781-1847 A.D.) ... :.............................................. 480

Elwe, Jan Barend (fl. 1785-1809 A.D.) ......................................................... 481

Justus Perthes Geographische Verlags (founded in 1785 A.D.)..................... 483

Norie, John William (fl. ca. 1785-1843 A.D.)................................................. 488

Wilkinson, Robert (fl. 1785-1825 A.D.)......................................................... 490

Brue, Adrien Hubert (1786 - 1832 A. D.)............. v........................................ 492

Tanner, Henry Schenck (1786-1858 A.D.).......... 1.................... r.................. 493

Venetik, i Vans Srboyn Ghazaru (ca. 1787A.D.) ........................................... 494

Lizars, William Home (1788-1859 A.D.)....................................................... .495

Jackson (18th Century A.D.)............................................................................ 498

Wyld, James, the Elder (1790-1836 A.D.)...................................................... 499

Arrowsmith, John (1790-1873 A.D.).............................................................. 500

Mitchell, Samuel A. (1792-1868 A.D.) .......................................................... 502

Perrot, Aristide Michel (1793-1879 A.D.)...................................................... 505

Laurie & Whittle (ca. 1794-1875 A.D.).......................................................... 506

British Admiralty (founded in 1795 A.D.)..................................................... 509

Berghaus, Heinrich Carl Wilhelm (1797-1884 A. D.)..................................... 510

Head, Capitan Charles (ca. 1797-1867 A.D.) ................................................ 512

Chapter IV:

The Persian Gulf in Geographical Maps of the Modern Cartography

(From 1800 to 2000 A.D.)

Gamier, F. A. (1803-1863 A.D.)..................................................................... 517

Oliver, GA. (19th Century A.D.)..................................................................... 518

Vuillemin, Alexander A. (1812- ca.1874 A.D.) ............................................. 519

Wyld, James, the Younger (1812-1887 A.D.) ................................................ 520

Thomas, John (fl. 1814-1869 A.D.) ................................................................ 522

Dussieux, Louis Etienne (1815-1894 A.D.).................................................... 525

Badger, Rev. George Percy (1815-1888 A.D.)............................................... 527

Hall, Sidney (fl. 1817-1860 A.D.) ................................................................. 528

Kiepert, Heinrich C. (1818-1899 A.D.).................................................... :..... 532

Fremin, A. R. (ca. 1820-1868 A.D.)........................................ :;..................... 533

Berthe (19th Century A.D.).............................................................................. 534

Lothian, John (fl. 1825-1846 A.D.)................................................................ 535

Dower, John (fl. 1825- c.1891 A.D.) ............................................................. 536

Johnston, firm of W. & A. K. (1825- c. 1863 A.D.)....................................... 537

X

Teesdale, Henry [& Co.] (ca. 1826-1860 A.D.).............................................. 538

Neele, James (Neele &' Son) fl. 1826-1845 A.D............................................. 539

Horseburg, James (19th Century A.D.).................... ....................................... 540

Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge (1829- ca.1876 A.D.)......... 541

Long, George (1830-1854 A.D.)..................................................................... 542

Royal Geographical Society (Founded 1830 A.D.) ............ .......................... 545

Kelly, Thomas (1835-1843 A.D.).................................................................... 547

Andriveu-Goujon, J. (ca.1835-1868 A.D.).................................................... ,.548

Tallis & Co. (1838-1851 A.D.) ....................................................................... 549

Herrich, A. (19th Century A.D.) .................................................................. ....551

Levasseur, Victor (1838-1854 A.D.)............................................................... 552

William, E. P. (19th Century A.D.).................................................................. 555

Cram, George (1841-1928 A.D.)..................................................................... 556

Spruner, Karl von (1846-1880 A.D.) ............................................................. 557

Anonymous Ottoman Cartographer, before 1850 A.D................................... 558

Graf, Adolf (ca. 1850-1890 A.D.).................................................................. 560

Orr & Dower (19th Century A.D.)................................................................... 561

Jackson, Peter (19th Century A.D.)................................................................. 562

Civelli, Giuseppe (19th century A.D.).............................................................. 563

Ferrier, Joseph Pierre (19th century A.D.)........................................................ 564

Bartholomew, John George (1860-1920 A.D.)............................................... 566

Blackie & Son (ca.1860-1893 A.D.) .............................................................. 568

Johnson & Ward Publishers (1860-1885 A.D.)............................................... 569

Weller, Edward (1861-1884 A.D.)................................................................. .570

Smith, William (19th century A.D.)................................................................. 572

Chevallier, H. (19th century A.D.)................................................................... 573

Dieulafoy, Jane (19th century A.D.)................................................................ 574

1919 A.D. .,.............................................. „...... !................................... ;.... ...575

1922 A.D..... .7................................................................................................. 576

e) The name Arabian Gulf was never used by Arabs until Nasser.

f) the user above distorted Pliny.

--alidoostzadeh 19:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

in wikipeda we should merge the 2 articles into one article. first we dont care about personal views for what is right and what is wrong but we care about the general international view of the fact. u shud write a part about the dispute so people shud know. i really dont know the answer for the article, i am not supporting any side. but u shud think of wikipedia as a big community with no borders.

- xmido

Attempt at altering the facts
Please see Special:Contributions/128.230.141.32. This is an example of changing the facts, and misrepresenting the actual current day usage of the name Arabian Gulf to refer to the gulf. Just one example I found by fortunate coincidence. Asabbagh 21:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say he's correcting an error rather than "misrepresenting". The actual current day name isn't the Arabian Gulf. The American/British navy must use the term Arabian Gulf whilst in the Gulf as they're forced to do so. Most Persian Gulf Arab states have banned the name Persian Gulf. Please refer to Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute for more info.

Gulf of Basra
There should be more details regarding the name Gulf of Basra as it is a hitorical name that started very early in the Islamic history, since Umar build the city of Basra. There are so many documents to prove that. The name remain official in Iraq until 1958 when it was replaced with "Arabian Gulf" but it is still official in Turkey.

Please remove blacklisted URL
Please remove the two URLs in the external links section containing "cais-soas" as "cais-soas" is blacklisted. Thanks. The Behnam 05:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Blacklisted by who? -- Donald Albury 13:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 17:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

the Gulf
Names of Sea's Rivers, Lands and mountains have been changed alot, like the mediteranean sea was called by Arabs "Bahr el ROUME or the sea of Romans, and was later called mediteranean white sea, today the majority of the gulf inhabitants are Arabs regardless in Iran as al-ahwaz or in the other gulf states...the gulf should be recognized as an Arabian gulf rather then Persian...

in my personal opinion and if the debate keeps going on, then it should be called simply the Gulf since no one has the right to call it his...


 * Fair enough: Geographic terms do change, but that comes through consensus. The Persian Gulf is shared amongst many countries and all the countries bordering it should decide what it should be called. The current name is the Persian Gulf in every language except Turkish and Arabic. If Arabic countries want to change the name, they should do it through diplomatic channels (i.e. the UN). Currently, Arabic countries are trying to change the name in English and other languages through stealth, pay, and in other non-diplomatic/official manner. As for this whole "majority of Gulf inhabitants are Arabs" - I'd like to see figures proving this claim.


 * Figures

ok, I'll be dividing my answeres into several parts... which i hope you read all, to become more knowledgable of the Dispute..

First Part: Please point out to me which ethnicity is dominant around the Arabian Gulf??

Iran's three Southern Provinces that oversee the Arabian Gulf are Populated as Follows:
 * Second Part:
 * Khuzestan Dominated by Arabs, and Persians
 * Bushehr Dominated by Luri and Persians
 * Hormozgan Dominated by Baluchis and Persians

The Iranian Provinces Population that overlooks the Arabian Gulf is 6,476,389 While Arab Provinces Overlooking the Arabian Gulf is 13,028,557 excluding the Entire Saudi Population except the Eastern Province...also including Iraqi Provinc of Basrah which has around 2,5 million citizen
 * Third part:

you can't claim a name due to Historical Evidence, we are not Discussing whether it was called Persian Gulf or Not, yes it was, but this region isnt Persian Any more, there is no such country as Persia in the First Place, while there is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates.
 * Fourth Part:

Voting for the name is useless, because it isnt really fair, if you get to Vote by Citizens in the Bordering Countries then the Arab States will find it not justifiable, due to their smaller popullation compared to Iran, and if you do it by Provinces or People living on the Arabian Gulf then it would also not be Justifiable to the Iranians..
 * Finally:

perhaps an International Vote, in the UN or Something... at least that would fill the UN Embassadors time up alittle ... hunh --Arab League User 01:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm very sorry but your arguments actually benefit the Persian Gulf cause:


 * First:
 * If you look at the demographic breakdown on the map you provided, you can see Arabic, Altaic, Iranian and a lot of empty (white) quarters. It can't be called Arabian Gulf if Arabs don't dominate the region. But what about the Persians? Let's look at your break-down again:


 * Second:


 * Khuzestan Dominated by Arabs, and Persians << Persians and Arabs - Yes, you are right!
 * Bushehr Dominated by Luri and Persians << Luris and Persians are the same ethnic group - Look at the map!
 * Hormozgan Dominated by Baluchis and Persians << Baluchis and Persians are the same ethnic group too - Look at the map!


 * Now let's look at the non-Iranian parts of the Persian Gulf:


 * Eastern Province, Saudi Arabia Dominated by Arabs.
 * Bahrain Only 66% of population is indigenous Bahraini. Of this 33% are Persian descent and 66% Arab.
 * Qatar Only 27% of the population is Arab. 73% are non-Arab.
 * UAE 32% Arab. 68% are non-Arab.
 * Kuwait 60% Arab, 30% Persian, 10% other.
 * Musandam (Oman) Dominated by Arabs and Persians
 * Al-Basrah Province (Iraq) Dominated by Arabs.


 * (I got all these figures from Wikipedia. Feel free to verify them.)


 * As you can see, Arabs don't dominate the area like you've been led to believe! The area is dominated by a lot of different ethnic groups who use the term that they were taught in their own language: The Persian Gulf (with the exception of Turkish and Arabic, no other language calls the Gulf, the Arabian Gulf).


 * Third


 * Counting the population of provinces that border the Persian Gulf doesn't make logical sense! They are not separate entities and should be counted as one nation. In that case, the total population of Iran is larger than than all the other countries bordering the Persian Gulf combined!


 * Fourth


 * Claiming the historical name of a geographically disputed area is relevant. The great majority of ancient maps use the term Persian Gulf. That's what international bodies will look at when/if they are to decide a change in a geographic name. Furthermore, Persia does exist: It's Iran. The two names can be used interchangeably although Iran is the dominant name. But this is besides the point, as bodies of water don't have to have ethnic groups bordering them. Just look at the Indian Ocean which also borders Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Kenya (to name a few).


 * Finally


 * Voting on the issue isn't useless, it's democratic! While all the population of Iran can vote on the matter, a lot of the residents in the Arab side of the Gulf won't be able to vote since they are not citizens of that nation (see my demographic breakdown above). Again, that's just an aside since Iran and other Persian Gulf states won't be the only ones voting for the name: The Persian Gulf is an international body of water and a change of name must be voted by the entire UN.

Iranian and Arabs point of view...
i find these two sections need to develope more, since it doesnt include that Irans defending of the name is Historical purposes, while Arab is Demographical purposes... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab League (talk • contribs) 02:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)