Talk:Persians/Archive 1

Persian Women
I think the description of Persian women in the "Persian Women" section is a little inappropriate. Are you trying to sell something here? Perhaps some word other than "Oriental" can be used to describe them.

Also, I don't think the word "garden" is of Persian origins. Perhaps you're refering to the word "paradise"?

I agree with the first user. This an encyclopedia, not an infomercial. I will edit it. --SeanMcG 21:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

"Tajiks of Tajikistan are by no means Persians. They do not stem from the ancient Persian tribes who settles in South Western Iran. They are however Iranians. They are descendants of the ancient Iranian tribe of Soghdians. Tajiks and Persians are NOT synonymous.The inconsistency in the article should be rectified, I keep trying to do so, but others keep deleting it and putting it to its former(incorrect) state.

"A number of other ethnic groups are represented in Iran, including the non-Persian Aryan group, the Gilaki; the Turkish-descended Azerbaijanis Turkmens and Kurds; and a few Arabs and other minorities."

I don't think the Kurds are Turkish-descended.

Persia's King Cyrus made a prclamation,saying "May Allah be with those of Israel."and; "Let them go to Jerusalem,they who are willing and let them build a house for their lord."

OK, I'm not going to revert this yet again, but shouldn't it really redirect to Persian, and THAT article have this information in it? -- Zoe

I re-created this article so it's about the Persians as an ethnicity. I think there are precidents for the title (See Germans, for example). I don't know anything about Persian ethnic culture or anything like that. I just thought it should be created. Other ethnic groups get articles. But people are going to have to do a lot of expanding on this one. Fishal 21:48, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Tajiks" (a name that may have originated from the Chinese word "Ta-Hia", meaning "Bactrian") are ethnic Iranians of Central-Asia. They are not only descendants of local East-Iranian peoples (Sogdians, Bactrians, etc), but also of West-Iranian Persians. Many Persians settled in Central-Asia, especially after the Arabic conquest (many others fled to China or India - modern Parsis). That's why Tajiks today speak Persian, and not Bactrian or Sogdian (where else other Iranian peoples, such as Pashtuns or Kurds, kept their original languages). The modern Persian language originated in Central-Asia and conquered West-Iran much later. Its vocabulary is to a great extend East-Iranian, while the grammar is still West-Iranian. Until the Turkic and Russian conquests of Central-Asia, the term "Tajik" was unknown to the people. Most of the Tajik schollars and personalities of the past (Ferdousi, Khayyam, Avicenna, Attar, Rumi, and so on) called themselvs "Persian" and are still known as Persians. Besides that, the Tajiks themselvs trace their roots back to the Persian Samanid empire. The Samanids were ethnic Persians from Central-Asia. -213.39.184.174 17:49, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The Persian-Tajik divide
I made some edits to clean-up the confusing beginning of this article before signing in. AT any rate, interesting debate, but the main point here is that the Tajiks and Persians have differences including geography, religion, and dialect differences not unlike that of Austrian German and the German spoken in northern Germany. So while it is important to note their common origins (as Iranian people), language alone does not define people. The Hazara are a Turkic-Mongol people who adopted the Persian language (their dialect being Hazaragi and even in Iran, the language spread over time as a result of empire and not simply because everyone came from the province of Fars which is not the case. The Tajiks are definitely part Persian from Iran, but not entirely AND their differences and similarities can all be noted.  This can become quite confusing since Afghanistan and portions of Central Asia have been under the rule of Persian based empires that it has become difficult to ascertain who is and isn't "Persian."  The Persians of Iran have lived a different existence to some degree, while the Tajiks have interacted with other groups around them such as the Uzbeks and Pashtuns.  Of course, of all the groups east of Iran, the Tajiks are obviously the closest cousins, with the exception of the Farsiwan.  Tajik is a category of itself and is explained in numerous articles. Surely it's not a problem if the Persians of Iran get an article of their own? Tombseye 02:10, 12 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree. It is important to mention that Tajiks and Persians are one people. The word Tajik itself is old-Turkish and means Persian, similar to the Arabic word Ajam. There is no difference between Tajiks and Persians. The only difference is their confession and their dialect - but neither religion nor a specific dialect define a people. The difference between Hamburg-German and Cologne-German is much much bigger then between Dushanbe-Persian and Tehran-Persian, yet, noone differenciates between Hamburg-Germans and Cologne-Germans. Besides that, the written language of Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan is 100% identical. The Persians/Tajiks share a common history, culture, language, and even heritage. Non eof the peoples in Central-Asia and Middle East is "pure". They all have mixed with different peoples and tribes. You also make a mistake by allging that Farsiwan (which simply means Persian-speaking) and Tajiks are different. Pashtuns call all Persian-speaking peoples in Afghanistan Farsiwan - including Hazaras and others. On the other hand, there are many Tajiks in Balkh and Kabul who call themselvs farsi or Farsiwan. I will change the article and correct the mistakes in it. -80.171.61.53 17:04, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * What makes them "one people" anyway? Are the Austrians and Germans one people even though even they themselves distinguish between themselves?  It doesn't matter what the terms mean and I already know what they mean.  The point is that the Persians as we know them today are a distinct group and share certain characteristics and geography.  Hell why even have the term Tajik then?  Get rid of that article then and then change the censuses of Afghanistan and Tajikistan too.  Here's the thing, bottom-line, the Persians of Iran differentiate themselves from the Tajiks of the east and sometimes religion is the main reason.  At this rate we might as well say that the Kurds are Persians because they are Iranian peoples.  Alphabets don't mean anything here.  They share a closely linked history and often it is the same and other times it is not.  Hell even the Iranians of Iran don't always share a common history.  The Farsiwan are Shia and the Tajiks are not.  I have made no mistake.  You're injecting your point of view rather than looking at the differences that make people different.  We could even call the Tajiks the Persians of the east and that would make some sense at the very least.  The Pashtuns get a lot of things wrong, including thinking that they might be descended from Hebrews while DNA testing and history contradict that belief.  And why not include the Hazaras?  Based upon looks?  There are Persians with some Turkic-Mongol ancestry too, so why not all of them together at this point?  I'm going to check the changes and revert it if it goes into POV. Tombseye 23:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * None of your points makes ANY sense. You confuse political borders with heritage, language with dialects, and so on. To start with: Germans and Austrians are ONE people. "Austria" is just the English name for the correct German word "Österreich" which simply means "Eastern Empire". Until the late 40's, Austria was officially called "Deutsch-Österreich" ("German Eastern Empire"). And until today, Turks call Austria "Nimsâ" (Arabic for Germany) while they call Germany "Almânija" (taken from French). For more information, see the German Wikipedia: Deutsche (Volk). In fact, Germans and Austrians are one people devided by political borders. As you may know, even Adolf Hitler was Austrian. The same goes to Mozart. Now back to Persians and Tajiks. "Tajik" is a Turkish word which was more or less unknown to the people in Central-Asia until the Russian conquest. After conquering Central-Asia, the Russians initially created certain different groups ... it was part of their "devide and conquer" strategy. In Afghanistan, the word was introduced by the king ind the easrly 20th century. Noone in Afghanistan actually calls himself "Tajik" ... usually, everyone who speaks Persian and does not look like a Hazara is considered a "Tajik". The word was introduced by the king to allienate the Persians of Afghanistan from those in Iran; Pan-Iranism and Persian nationalism is still a big threat for Afghanistan where ethnic conflics are a plague for the nation since its foundation. There is absolutely no difference between "Tajiks" and "Persians": same language, same history, same heritage, same national heroes, same national epic, same national poets, etc etc etc. Just like the Asutrians and Germans, they are ONE PEOPLE devided by different political borders that were created by the British and by the Russians during the era of European colonialism. The only thing that is different is their Islamic confession: Iranian Persians are mostly Shia Muslims with some Sunni, Bahai and Zoroastrian minorities. Tajiks are mostly Hanafi Sunnis with significant Imam and Ismaili communities in Badakhshan, Samarqand, and Herat. But religion does not define a people. Neither does the dialect. For a German from Hamburg or Berlin, it is much easier to understand an Asutrian from Vienna than to understand a German from Koblenz or from Stuttgart. Although Stuttrat is in Germany, it is almost impossible to understand a native speaker ... the people of Stuttgard have even their own Wikipedia: Alemannisch. Yet, you would NEVER say that "Mercedes-Benz ist not German but Alemannish" ... Your "Kurd example" does not make sense, since Kurds speak a totally different language. The difference between Kurdish and Persian is like the difference between Dutch and English. The difference between "Tajiki" and "Parsi" is like the difference between "British English" and "American English". I am not saying that the article "Tajiks" should be removed ... but one should mention that "Tajiks" and "Persians" are actually one people. Tajiks have direct Persian ancestors (that's why the language of the Tajiks is Persian and not Bactrian or Sogdian, which used to be the dominant languages of the region until the Arabic conquest). When the Arabs invaded Persia, many Persians left their homes and fled to India and Central-Asia. There is still a Persian community in India: Parsis. The vast majority of the Persians who fled to the east settled in Central-Asia and became mixed with the original eastern Iranian populations of the region. Persian became the dominant language of the region - and a few decades later, they were defeated by the Arabs and converted to Islam. Persia's national epic, the Shahnameh, is actually a collection of Eastern Iranian legends written in the Persian languages. That proves clearly that after the Arabic invasion, Eastern Iran and Western Iran melted together ... and the product are today's Persians (Tajiks). The greatest Persian schollars and thinkers were from Central-Asia and they are as much part of the Tajik culture as they are part of the Persian culture in Iran. We can't change the fact that there is a nation called Tajikistan and that there are millions of people who are called Tajiks. But it is important to mention that those Tajiks are no different deom the Persians in Iran, and that Tajik is actually nothing else but a synonym for Persians in the east. I am going to rewvert the text once more. -80.171.61.53 13:01, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * You want a clearer analogy of the same type, then what about the Swiss Germans and Germans of the Anschluss? Both "German" but different enough to acknowledge a separate identity as Swiss and German respectively.  Russians and Ukrainians exist as two nationalities, while many Russians will argue they are one people and they can understand each other when speaking in their respective languages, while the Ukrainians do not.  Variations exist and the Tajiks as we know them today are only part Persian and adopted the Persian language due to conquest as well as absorbing some of the invaders as the Persians in Iran did.  The distinctions include religion and dialect differences and geography as well.  "One" people would require something more than SOME common history.  Ferdowsi was born in Khorasan, but not in what in the portion that is today part of Afghanistan.  The Tajiks retained their language, but clearly have absorbed Turkic-Mongol ancestry especially in Tajikistan AND they have culturally mingled with other peoples such as Pashtuns and Hazaras and Uzbeks.  That's just the way it is.  While the Persians in Iran have had a different course interacting with Azeris, Kurds, and Iraqis etc.  In addition, the Parsis of India have changed as well and most don't even speak Persian anymore even if they have tried to maintain their identity and thus they are called Parsis and not simply Persians of the further east.  The distinction at some point becomes enough to denote the fact that there are common origins to SOME extent, but that there have also been changes and that there are variations.  In addition, in what article do the Persians of Iran get discussion as a group?  The Tajiks have a section already so why not the Persians of Iran.  If you want, we can say the Persians of Iran then at the very least and explain the rest.  I think this would be the best way to go about it since the Tajiks have an article as "eastern Persians."  In academia, most academics look at the groups with some distinct traits and yet maintain their commonalities as well.  I think this is a fair compromise as this article can simply be about the Persians of Iran, while acknowledging that there are Persians outside of Iran. Fair enough? Tombseye 15:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Idon´t know wy a person of persian and europena descend is not called euroasian. Im of persian and portuguise descend and i think that i should be called a eroasian, becouse persians are not europeans they are an Asian people.


 * I've reconsidered the Persian-Tajik divide and believe that they are very similar. It is mainly religion and geography that separates the groups and they are in fact very much like Swiss Germans and the Germans of Germany in terms of their relationship with each other. Still though I think it's okay to have a page for both as they have diverged historically in various ways as well. It seems as if the Persians of Iran also claim historical figures from Central Asia as their own, while distancing the modern Tajiks are illegitimate Persians which makes no sense at all. The criteria might as well be geographic if the two are to be considered somewhat distinct rather than ethnic. As for the Parsis, it's a tough call. They are ethnically Persian still and yet culturally Indian. It's like asking whether or not the Amish are American or German-Dutch. Thus, someone like Freddie Mercury, who identified himself as an ethnic Persian, can be considered both without too much trouble I'd say. Tombseye 21:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

-Parsis and Persians are not the same although the former is descended from the latter. Parsis have developed a distinct cultural and ethnic identity of their during their residence in the subcontinent. They have mixed with other local groups and today speak Gujarati, not any form of Persian (or any Iranian language) and yet follow Zoroastrianism. Saying that Parsis are identical to Persians is really simplistic and somewhat untrue as Parsis have a history and culture distinct from other Persians. Calling Parsis Persians would be like calling a Keralite Moplah an Arab because his ancestors were Arab traders or the Queen of England a Viking because her ancestors were Normans (French descendants of the Vikings and the modern royal family descends from William the Conqueror as well as the Anglo-Saxon kings). At least, that's what I think. -Afghan Historian 05:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)]]

-After all I've read on the Tajiks, I think it would be accurate to say they are Persians. After all, their language is basically identical to Persian, with a few dialectal variations. Their culture is 100% Persian. Historically, they have been tied with Persia, as the number of famous Persians from this region attests. They probably arent racially identical, being in Central Asia, but hey, are Arabs racially homogenous? -User: Afghan Historian

-User: theblacksmith 14:36, 06 February 2006 (UTC)
 * An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other. Any Persian or anyone who has lived amongst Persians, will know that Persians do not identify themselves with Tajiks.


 * Your assessment is incorrect. I made the same mistake and realized after doing some more research on the subject that in fact the Tajiks are a type of Persians. The difference is basically the same as an Austrian German and German in Germany. Who Persians in Iran identify with is irrelevant. The Tajiks see themselves as Persians and speak a dialect of Persian and that's really all there is to it. We have a concensus view on the pages so unless you can come up with a better argument than Persians in Iran not seeing Tajiks as Persian then we're going to have to stay with the previous version of the page. Tombseye 21:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Better Pictures
can somebody please delete the picture of khomeini. put someone like mossadegh or hafez or ibn sina.


 * Hiter's on the Germans page... --Khoikhoi 08:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed Khoikhoi's correct and it was my suggestion to include Khomeini as the peoples pages should reflect well known representatives, controversial and infamous as well as 'positive' contributers. The image has a good range of the best known Persians and Khomeini is one of them. Wikipedia should not be a nationalistic feel good encyclopedia to depict only people everyone likes or would like to represent them. If there were to be an Iraqis page (or an Iraqi Arabs page), Saddam would have to be there. Genghis Khan has to be on the Mongols page and Hitler is on the Germans page. Many Hungarians would argue for the inclusion of Attila and on the Romanians page we have Vlad the Impaler (although he could probably go both Hungarian or Romanian). Avicenna, though an ethnic "Persian", was born and lived in Central Asia and qualifies as a Tajik. Few people have heard of Hafez and Mossadeq although both are important Persian figures, but it's doubtful that they've had has much of an impact upon Persians today as Khomeini. Cyrus represents the ancient past, Khayyam the scientific and artistic contributions, Shohreh represents the changing modern Persians, and Khomeini is a pivotal person who has re-shaped Iran entirely. I'd say these four figures are very indicative of Persians frankly. Tombseye 21:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Hiter's picture is no longer on Germans page neither should Khomeini's picture be on Persians page not simply because he is controversial and infamous but also because there are strong doubts regarding whether or not Kheomini has any Persian background. I'd like to see a reliable source regarding this. ManiF


 * Not sure how you define reliable, but here are two:


 * http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/moin-khomeini.html


 * http://www.asiasource.org/society/khomeini.cfm


 * What strong doubts are you talking about? Please don't tell me this is another purity test to discredit Khomeini's mostly Persian background. Since so many people keep saying he's not Persian, I'd like some reliable evidence supporting that he's not Persian as well. Tombseye 06:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh and curious omission of countries with Persian populations on your part. The US entry didn't have a citation, but you kept that one and got rid of the rest. Now why is that? Kind of selective don't you think? Numerous sources in print relate the presence of Persians in the Arabian peninsula and surrounding countries, especially after the Islamic Revolution, while the official censuses in Canada, Australia, and the US seem to show lower Iranian populations and the problem there is we don't know what percentage of people are Persian and which aren't. Tombseye 06:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Iranian origin does not mean Persian. Khomeini's mother is Indian and his black turban indicates that he's descendant from Arabs from father's side, so at best he's 1/4th Persian. ManiF


 * Correction, one of his parents is HALF Indian, making Khomeini 1/4 Indian and the Arab descent thing has to be distant, if its true at all as lots of people claim Arab ancestry from Nigeria to Indonesia, that doesn't mean they are of Arab descent or that it's very much. He's basically 3/4 Persian. Didn't your read the sources and the book review from the New York Times?


 * Here's an excerpt from the article that is a book review of Khomeini: Life of the Ayatollah By BAQER MOIN, St. Martin's Press:


 * Khomeini's family are Musavi seyyeds; that is they claim descent from the Prophet through his daughter's line and the line of the seventh Imam of the Shi`a, Musa al-Kazem. They are believed to have come originally from Neishabur, a town near to Mashhad in north-eastern Iran. In the early eighteenth century the family migrated to India where they settled in the small town of Kintur near Lucknow in the Kingdom of Oudh whose rulers were Twelver Shi`a — the branch of Islam which became the official state religion in Iran under the Safavids and to which the majority of Iranians adhere today. Ruhollah's grandfather, Seyyed Ahmad Musavi Hindi, was born in Kintur and was a contemporary and relative of the famous scholar Mir Hamed Hossein Hindi Neishaburi whose voluminous history of the religion, the Abaqat al-Anwar, is sometimes described as the pride of Indian Shi`ism.


 * Seyyed Ahmad left India in about 1830 to make a pilgrimage to the shrine city of Najaf in present-day Iraq, and possibly to study at one of its famous seminaries. He never returned. In Najaf he struck up a friendship with Yusef Khan Kamareh'i, a landowner who lived in the village of Farahan not far from Khomein who persuaded Ahmad to return to Iran with him. It is thought that the two men made the journey around 1834. Five years or so later, in 1839, Ahmad purchased the large house and garden in Khomein which was to remain in his family for well over a century and a half. Whether he had brought money with him from India or made it in Iran, he was clearly at this time a man of substance as the 4,000-square-metre property cost him the very large sum of 100 tomans. He had already married two wives from the district, Shirin Khanum and Bibi Khanum, and in 1841 he took a third, his friend Yusef Khans sister Sakineh. Ahmad had only one child from his first two marriages, but Sakineh gave him three daughters and a son Mostafa, who was born in 1856. The family continued to prosper as, over the next decade, Ahmad bought land in the small villages of the region, and in Khomein itself an orchard and a caravanserai. He died in 1869 and, as he had instructed in his will, the family took his body by mule to the holy city of Karbala for burial.


 * Note that they CLAIM descent from some ancient Arab ancestry. Do you realize that even if its true, how far back that is? If he's part Arab he's like 1/128 or something. How does that make him 1/4 Persian? I'm not against taking his picture down if its bothering people because he's a divisive figure, but please don't tell me he's not an ethnic Persian simply because you don't like the guy. If you have evidence that he's not Persian, then let's see it. Tombseye 08:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Very good idea. Khomeini is not even Persian! He is a Seyyed, meaning descendant of the Arabic, prophet Mohammed. The Shah or Mossadegh would be a better choice.

Avicenna is a Persian whose parents migrated to the Tajik province of Persia. That was Persian territory. Avicenna is not Tajik.


 * Actually, Khomeini was 3/4 ethnic Persian, which is pretty much Persian. If you start sifting through many Persians' ancestry you'll find lots of foreign origins so that's not a problem. As for Avicenna being 'Tajik' or not, you do realize that it's a fluid term right? It just means Central Asian Persian. There might be some variations, but the reality is that Persians moved around quite a bit. At this rate we might as well merge Tajik with the Persians article if we can't even apply the geographic aspect. This smacks of some sort of absurd purity test as to who is and is not a 'real' Persian. I think Khomeini helps balance out the many facets of who the Persians are. There are a lot of Persians who think like Khomeini did and revere him AND he's a popular face of Iran all over the world. Tombseye 03:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Correction: There are not "a lot" of Persians who thnk like Khomeini. It's called propaganda, which seems is effective in shaping the opinions of people such as yourself.


 * Hey use your sign-in name if you're going throw around accusations. I never said I liked the guy or his views, but you must be really clueless if you think Khomeini got into power and reshaped the nation without a lot of support. Sounds like you just believe what you want to believe to me. Tombseye 06:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

hitler
atleast hitler did something for the german people. he united them and turned germany into a powerful country. what did khomeini do? he brought his people scorn and difficulties. it is because of this that arabs call the Persian Gulf arabian gulf, during the shah's reign no arab dared to say anything regarding iran. But i don't see hitler as a hero nor do i love the shah, i'm just giving my opinion.


 * It seems like his revolution was pretty popular... I mean, he completely changed the face of modern Iran by defying the west and starting a new government. See this link for more details. I'm sure that people that live in Iran think differently about this than you do. --Khoikhoi 01:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I have 3 friends who were in Iran recently (as in they came back in August 2005) and one of them is Persian, the others Canadian and British. While over their doing some academic field work (well two of them anyway), what they encountered was indeed a lot of reverence for Khomeini from many Iranians as well some desire for change from his original vision for Iran. The reality is that Persians in the west and those in Iran don't always agree on many things, while it is also undeniable that most Persians probably aren't big on the Iranian revolution's effects today in sum. It's a dicey issue. Tombseye 07:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Why picture of Chomeini?
Why picture of Chomeini?

He was a non-Persian, a citizen of Iran, but at least not an ethnical Persian. Why is his picture then there?

--ShapurAriani 20:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * See above. --Khoikhoi 21:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

At least we agree, that he was 1/4 Indian, partly Arabic, and partly Persian. I hardly believe such a melting pot of ethnicities should be the proverbial 'poster boy' for Persians.


 * There are probably a lot of Persians just like him and the divine Arab ancestry is claimed by a lot of people. The Persians aren't a pure anything anyway and he's still 3/4 Persian. I'm not going to press for his picture being included in the article, BUT please don't sit there and play the Persian purity game because it's a really pointless one given the various origins of the Persians. Tombseye 06:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Image
Greg, it seems you're just ignoring what I've written elsewhere. It is an example of Persian art and released by the Iranian Cultural Heritage Museum for promotional purposes. Why would it not be appropriate in this article, Persian art, and Iranian culture? SlimVirgin (talk) 07:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Because it is copyrighted! There are countless public domain images which would serve the purpose of this article equally well (and indeed some on the very articles we are editing). Again, there is nothing specific about this particular image that makes it more useful for our educational aims than the countless other images we could use. ... Nothing except that you are also using this on your user page and need an excuse to keep it on Wikipedia. :( This use would make a fine counterexample for the WP:FU of the same kind as " An image of a rose, cropped from an image of a record album jacket, used to illustrate an article on roses." now makes. If you'd like an example of a place where the image would be acceptable, you could write an article about the artist and discuss that painting. That still will not excuse its use here or on your user page, but it would allow us to keep it.  I hope this makes things more clear for you.--Gmaxwell 07:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * But why wouldn't it be appropriate in Persian art or Iranian culture. It is an example of Iranian culture. But you have removed it from there too. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Because there is no discussion about the work there (and hardly any discussion at all, the page is one step ahead of a simple list). Look at the rose example from WP:FU that I quoted. Just because it's persian art doesn't automatically mean that it's fair use on an article about persian art. --Gmaxwell 08:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You're talking nonsense. The museum released it for promotional purposes so far as we know, and what else would they be promoting if not Iranian art and culture? You seem to be making this up as you go along. Please show me some case law from now on. You can't expect people to rely on your original research. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * So you're saying that it's okay because it's with permission? Okay. Except thats not allowed either. Please don't take this personally, you are the zillionth and first user whos had to remove a favorite fair use image... and the billionth and first whos been told that an image wasn't fair use in a particular article. This isn't anything against you... our standards on this matter must be enforced consistently. Again, I welcome a freely licensed copy of this image, and I hope you are able to obtain the license you seek. --Gmaxwell 10:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * An additional clarification: the muesum is probably not the copyright holder (as you'd mentioned before when talking about getting a good license for it) so they can't make the sort of grant we need. Even if they were, their use for promotion doesn't automatically translate into a right for use to continue redistributing it. What do you think they'd say if we used the image on a page talking about the bad points of the museum? --Gmaxwell 10:11, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * They'd say it was an inappropriate use because we wouldn't be promoting them, their country's culture, or the artist. But given that we don't criticize anything related to them, it is being appropriately used. I didn't say anything about permission, so stop trying to shift the goalposts. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That was the point of my comment... To use the image we have to give them control over our content. Thats unacceptable. This is why we can only accept images which soundly qualify as fair use or are under a free license, in either case they can't force us to remove it if they don't like what we say. I'm not trying to shift the goalpost: I'm trying to help you understand years of discussion, thought, and policy in a very small space. --Gmaxwell 10:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course we don't. You really are making this up as you go along, Greg. I'd be happy to have this explained to me by someone in the profession, but you're not. That is the problem. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, how do you know it is copyrighted? At the moment, all we know is that someone released it for promotional purposes. I'm currently trying to find out whether it's copyrighted and if so who holds it, and who exactly released it, so unless you're psychic and have anticipated the responses, you have no idea of its status. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Absurd comments about Khomeini
I find these comments about the man, no matter what you or I or anyone thinks of him, to be incredibly offensive. Comparing him to Hitler (!), claiming that he was of "mixed blood" and continually insulting him will not accomplish anything. This is crap, pure and simple. None of these claims about his ancestry can ultimately be proven and it is absurd. Whether you want to admit or not, he was very much Persian and you would be hard pressed to find anyone in Iran who would accept this nonsense that he was not Persian. That is purely an opinion and a pretty lame one at that.

Secondly, as I have had to illustrate time and time again to many people, Persians are not a single ethnic group, but many different peoples sharing a common line of origin and cultural and linguistic background. There are many different Persian ethnicities, both in Iran and in surrounding nations. We have Persians with many different skin tones ranging from the palest white to bronze to dark; eye and hair colors ranging from black to blue and black to blonde. People from different regions have different features, different dialects, different traditions, and on and on and on. Just because Khomeini doesn't fit your ideal of what constitutes a "Persian" does not make him "mixed" or whatever. If that were true then it would be true for everyone and Iran and Persian civilization and our many different peoples would have ceased to exist a long time ago and would have been absorbed into some other civilization and "race" and this whole conversation would be moot.

Point is that there is no single Persian "race" but many different peoples ultimately sharing a common cultural and linguistic background. Accept it and move on. SouthernComfort 08:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Why Khoemini?
Even if Khoemini was Persian, which he was not (just look at the color of his Turban), including his picture in such an article is simply a political act as many people here are opposed to it. Just as Hitler's picture was removed from Germans page, Khoemini's picture should be removed from Persians page as well.

More evidence that Khomeini was not Persian!
http://www.livinginhell.com/excerpts.php

"Khomeini was born Ruhollah Khomeini Hendi on May 17, 1900 . The last part added to his last name, indicates that his father was from India . He was born in the town of Khomain located in the south of Markazi Province, 323 km from Tehran and 160 km from the city of Qom. In 1930, he changed his name to Ruhollah Mosvi Al-Khomeini ."

http://i-cias.com/e.o/khomeini.htm

"(1902- 1989) Iranian religious leader and politician. His name was Ruhollah ibn Mustafa Musawi Khomeini Hindi (meaning the Indian)."

--ManiF 09:17, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh for heavens sake. This is your proof? SouthernComfort 09:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on you guys. I'm still waiting for an article that explicitly calls Ruhollah Khomeini a Persian. Khomeini does have Iranian origins but he's not a Persian. --ManiF 09:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, your source is pretty weak. She only talks about his name as 'evidence' and then goes off on symbol similarities that supposedly connect him to the Sikhs. You call that evidence? We've given you 3 sources (one from a New York Times book review) and you've give us nada. I'm not going to push for keeping Khomeini's picture up, BUT I'm also not going to agree that you have any shred of evidence to make the absurd claim that Khomeini was not an ethnic Persian because frankly while we've all been quite patient and presented sources, all you've done is come here with a selective agenda, deleting some population figures without sources and keeping others, and then making wildly unsubstantiated accusations that Khomeini was not a Persian, which is FALSE. I've got no problem with taking Khomeini's picture out, but you really need to stop claiming he's not a Persian because it sure looks like you're wrong. Tombseye 19:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Does it matter if Khomeini is Persian or not? He is not neutral. Is this Wikipedia supposed to be neutral or not? Kordestan 06:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it doesn't matter because now I've put up Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, and he is definitely Persian and that is that. Issues of neutrality are moot, because all we are giving is an example of Persians, and he is very well known to the average Western reader. See Russians for an example of using a former monarch as an example. If you have a problem with the Shah, then that is just too bad. SouthernComfort 10:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I concede that the Ayatollah is a divisive figure for the encyclopedia (as the Shah may be as well) so I'm okay with taking his picture off if that's what most people want. But it's important not to make up things just because some people don't like the guy (such as his non-Persian origins which frankly hasn't been proven). That's all I was saying. Tombseye 19:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

-OK, I'll settle this once and for all. Khomeini's so called Indian ancestry was really Persian as those Indian ancestors were Persians residing in the Shia city of Lucknow. He's still mostly Persian on his father's side of the family. His mother's family is 100% Persian. Therefore, he's still a Persian, despite that obscure drop of Indian blood somewhere in his DNA. If he has any Arab blood, that's probably even smaller, too small to be of any significance other than to link him to the Prophet. Overall, though, he was a Persian all in out. A true blue Persian. Persian was his mother tongue, he was born in Iran, he grew up Iranian and his culture was that of a Shia Iranian Persian. To call him a non-Persian because of a few miniscule drops of "foreign blood" is ridiculous. If Khomeini truly considered himself Indian, he would have gone to India or Pakistan and not have wasted all his time trying to help the religious factions of Iran. Stop this crusade of discrediting his heritage as Persian. It's like calling Freddie Mercury Iranian when his family has lived in India and like Indians practicing Zoroastrianism for the past 1200 years! Or, Peter Ustinov a full black man because one of his grandmothers or greatgrandmothers was Ethiopian! Give me a break! -User: Afghan Historian


 * Actually, it's never been proven that he ever had "Indian" blood (Indian as in indigenous to India), and many of these "seyyed" Persian families will only intermarry with other such families. So I find it hard to believe that he had any non-Persian blood. And there was nothing foreign about the man, as there is nothing foreign about any of the clerics in Iran. Unfortunately some who oppose the Islamic Republic (mainly in the Western Diaspora) like to portray the Persian clergy as "foreigners" or "Arabs" but as I've said, this is crap. Their culture is distinctly Persian, and the "Hezbollahi" religious cult that has developed in Iran since the Revolution (and whose numbers have been shrinking) is also very much a Persian cultural phenomenon (born out of this dualistic mysticism that goes back to ancient times). Obviously one can empathize with any opposition to Khomeini and the Islamic Republic, but to attack them from a racialist standpoint is absurd and offensive. It's all very moot at this point, however. As for Freddie Mercury, he considered himself "Persian" and went to great lengths to portray himself as such, so he was the one who opened up that can of worms. ;) SouthernComfort 13:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

-I agree with you totally on the part of Khomeini "Southern Comfort". I did read, however, that Freddie Mercury called himself Persian to downplay his Indian heritage rather than of real pride. This was told to me by many Parsis. -User: Afghan Historian


 * Well, there was (and still is) a great deal of racism towards Indians in the UK, so that wouldn't be too surprising if his intent was to actually downplay his Indian nationality. But even then, it's ultimately an opinion since we can never know what he was thinking, unless some previously undiscovered journal or diary pops up somewhere, or if his family or friends reveal something. However, Parsis are definitely of Iranian descent. Whether or not they are actually of Persian descent is open to debate since most, if not all, Iranian groups practiced some variant of Zoroastrianism before they converted to Islam. So they may very well be descended from a non-Persian Iranian group. Also, up until recently Parsis very rarely married outside their community (not even with Zoroastrians from Iran or elsewhere), and their elders still remain extremely race-conscious while many amongst the younger generations want to assimilate more into the wider Indian culture. It's a very complex and sensitive subject, there is no doubt about that. SouthernComfort 04:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * He wasn't downplaying it, but simply identifying with the group that he identified most with. It's his choice really as the Parsis are Iranian and actually Persian by most accounts. You're confusing his nationality with his ethnic group. Tombseye 21:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Persian population figure in US
This source, meniones that there is approximately 1 million Iranians (citizens of Iran, or people born in Iran), living in the United States. This does not mean they are all ethnic persian, since they can also belong to other ethnic groups of Iran, such as Azeri, Arab, Kurd, Turkmen. So 1 million is wrong.Heja Helweda 18:26, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, one of the problems is that we have no real way of discerning between Iranians and ethnic Persians in the US since there is no official census to find out. One can assume that the majority were ethnic Persians fleeing from the Shah, but that's still just a guess. Tombseye 19:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with your assumption. There are lots of Iranian Azeris living in the states. In the absence of any accurate ethnic data, I suggest to consider only 50% of the Iranian population in U.S. as ethnic Persians. (in order to be consistent with the ethnic make-up of Iran, according to CIA data.) Heja Helweda 22:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It might be wise to put it as a range since saying there are lots of Iranian Azeris doesn't really mean much. We also can't assume the 50% figure because, notoriously, immigrants aren't always proportional to the home country's population breakdown. A large proportion of Italian immigrants to the US were Sicilian for example. Tombseye 23:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Ayatollah Khomaini
We should put the image of Hz. Ayatollah Khomaini the most revolutionary and well known feature among all Persians during history.

Mesopotamia 19:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * He was deemed too controversial and removed. I also thought he was the most well known figure and should have been on the page, but too many people don't like him so it's probably better to go with less controversial figures given the nature of people to react and then we end with edit wars. Tombseye 20:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the moment I added the picture I got a hail of comments asking for him to be taken down. I just ignored them, until it got serious and I was tired of reverting. --Khoikhoi 21:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Hz. Ayatollah Khomaini (Peace be upon him) is the most most well known figure than that shah who even were forced to flee the country by Iranians. I suggest to add or replace his picture. Mesopotamia 21:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We've already gone down that road with the Ayatollah. At this rate, people will keep replacing the picture. A more neutral figure would be better such as Mossadeq, I'd say. Tombseye 23:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we can keep both Hz. Ayatollah Khomaini (peace be upon him) and Shah, both are much more well known than Mosaddeq.

Mesopotamia 23:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm telling you, it's not going to work. You're just going to get reverted. --Khoikhoi 23:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Who revert them? Anon? we can for semi-protect the page for a while. Don't agree? Ok, but we cannot keep the Shah and remove Hz. Ayatollah Imam Khomaini (peace be upon him) because it will be unjusty to Persian. Either both or no one. Mesopotamia 00:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Some were anons, others were users. Several were people that got accounts specifically to change the picture. One of them was a Persian, another was a Kurd. --Khoikhoi 00:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

It does not matter from which ehnicity they disagree. The important is to be neutral. Mesopotamia 02:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

about persian please do not revert my edits if you do not want the article be one-sided how you can prove that persians have not been mixed with laaa...rge number of Arabs, Mongolians and Turks living with or ruling persians during tens centuries. Mesopotamia 21:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll try a little bit to balance the article without changing the image. but please think of what I am saying. Mesopotamia 22:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I keep the edits about mixing, but stop changing it for "Fari language". It's the same thing as Persian. --Khoikhoi 23:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Are Latin and Italian languages the same? or many other languages like that? The Persian and Farsi language also are not the same even much more different. Off course it should be soon corrected specially in the Farsi language and Persian language articles. Mesopotamia 23:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Italian is descended from Latin. Don't you mean Spanish and Italian? The Persian language article even says: Persian (known variously as: فارسی Fârsi, local name in Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, پارسی Pârsi, older, local name still used by some speakers, Tajik, a Central Asian dialect, or Dari, another local name in Tajikistan and Afghanistan)


 * Where did you get this idea that they are different languages? I've never heard anyone say this before. --Khoikhoi 23:42, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I exactly meant Latin and Italian languages. One is descended from another one. Farsi is a modern language. It is quite different from Persian. Persian was an ancient Iranian language which used by ancient Persians. After Arab/Arabic invasion everything changed. even the official language of Iran became Arabic and a new language, heavily affected by Arabic, born. It is called Farsi. Gramatically and vocabulary is quite different from that ancient Persian language. Even in Farsi languge there is a different between Farsi and Persian. If you f.ex. in Tehran or Isfahan ask people which language they speak they reply Farsi. And if ask them about Persian (Parsi) they explain for you that it refers to an old language. In Other words and more simply:

If you say: Ou ra peyda kardam and ask them which language is this, they reply that: it is Farsi.

If you say: Vey ra biaftam people say this is Persian (Parsi).

So as you see Farsi is a modern language while Persian is an old one. If there is some small dialect in some countries which call themselves Parsi (Persian) it does not change the mater; we can explain it in a section in the artilce. But the modern language spoken in modern Iran is Farsi. Mesopotamia 00:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Wrong. You're thinking of the Old Persian language. The modern Persian language is Persian. Farsi is another name for the modern Persian language. --Khoikhoi 00:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I had alrady seen that page. It does not mean that Farsi is the same as Persian. as I explained for you above, they are quite different from eachother. Mesopotamia 00:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * They're not different. They're exactly the same. Ask anyone who speaks the language. If they're different, why does the Persian language article clearly say Farsi at the top paragraph? You never even answered my 1st question: why did you get this info? --Khoikhoi 00:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The article persian language is smartly merging Farsi with Persian language! which is a desire by some Persian nationalists. while others do not. You asked me why you get this info. Because it is so. Even in Iran there is a different between Farsi and Persian in every issue. Farsi refers to post-Islamic era while Persian for pre-islamic one. Mesopotamia 00:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but "because it is so" isn't good enough. --Khoikhoi 00:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

By "It is so" I meant "it is truth". Off course this is me who should ask you why you have merged these articles. If I started the article about Farsi and Persian languages, certainly had put different materials. Mesopotamia 00:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

And still is not late. Persian and farsi related articles need many wikification. Mesopotamia 00:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Then please add comments on Talk:Persian language and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Iran. --Khoikhoi 00:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV dispute
What's the problem here? AucamanTalk 01:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

There are many problems with this article. Some of them such as adding Azeri Turks in the infobox, inflating the number of persians, removed or balanced. but unfortunately there still are so many problems with this article. It is quite one-sided. and has been written with a strong pro-Persian POV as well as wording. Some other problems has been explained above. I'll keep looking for improving it.

Mesopotamia 02:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Also:


 * United Arab Emirates:
 * no data
 * Germany:
 * 110,000
 * Canada:
 * no data
 * Australia:
 * 50,000

are not a significant population, but a neglible immigrants which every ethnicity can have. You can move it to Persian demographis instead.

Mesopotamia 09:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

What's with the picture on this page?!
Why is there a problem with the picture showing Cyrus, Omar Khayyam, Shoreh, and the Shah? It's a 4 people picture and was okay for quite some time. Tombseye 20:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I did not change it. Another user did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persian_people&diff=39251694&oldid=39251636

Mesopotamia 20:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Ethnologue data shows 22 million native speakers of Farsi in Iran
Link. Please don't remove it. It seems that the statistics from different sources vary a lot. All should be included. Heja Helweda 21:55, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Almost 10 years old (not reliable anymore). does not include Gilak and Northwestern Persian etc. The list contains 74 languages and dialects. Iran does not have 74 ethnic groups! -- Gorbeh 09:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Dialects of Persian
Dialects of the Persian language are clealy specified in the Persian page. Out of all listed dialects only western Farsi is spoken in Iran. The sentence Persians are an ethnic Iranian peoples who mainly speak various dialects of the Persian language as their mother tongue. is not quite correct, since the only dialect spoken in Iran is western Farsi. Refer to ethnologue for more detail. Moreover ethnic Iranian people may refer to Tajiks as well, which are not considered as Persian. So I suggest to say Persian are citizens of Iran, or those with Iranian parents (for the second generation expatriates), who speak ...Heja Helweda 22:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Fars
1)) There is nothing called persian peoples. These Ajams have their own name called Fars. Persians were an extinct people who ... away forever. So I'll reform all of Ajam related articles. Sorry, Fars related articles.

Mesopotamia 01:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop now. They call themselves Persians, despite whatever you want to call them. This is a FACT. --Khoikhoi 01:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Lier, They call themselves FARS if you are not deaf go to Tehran and ask them.

Let me this is the beginning. I will show you how much these Fars chaunists are biased and lier.

Mesopotamia 01:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps Fars is a name for them, but the most common is "Persian"'. Give it up, will ya? Why don't you post a question at Talk:Iran and ask them what they call themselves? --Khoikhoi 01:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

This is the beginnig, I will ask help from all neigboring people of middle east.

Mesopotamia 01:17, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The beginnig of what? --Khoikhoi 01:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Beginning of controlling over Farsi Chauvonism and making Fars related articles neutral

Mesopotamia 01:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You're just going to make everyone mad - I highly recommend that you don't. --Khoikhoi 02:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In Persian and other Middle eastern languages (Turkish,Arabic,Kurdish) the Persians are called "Fars", which is an ethnic name. Farsis as plural form is used in English. see
 * ,, ,,, ,, , , , , , ,  Heja Helweda 06:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I never said the term "Fars" wasn't used, I just said it wasn't the most common usage in English. --Khoikhoi 06:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * While Fars may not be that widespread in the English world, it is better to be included in the article, as an alternative ethnic name. It seems that the terms Fars and Farsis(Persians) have been used in some recent academic research.Heja Helweda 06:40, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The links are useless. 1. Some of them are forums and informal pages. We can not rely on them. 2. Some of them are pages written by Kurdish or other ethnics who hate persians unfortunately. That's a cold war. We can not rely on them. 3. Some of the pages are written by persians. In this case that's because of their lack of knowledge in English language. In this case we have to use what is recommended by Academy of Persian language. 4. Many internet pages can not be addressed as they are not academic. like iranian travel agencies or so on. 5. They are some academic pages that use the words but there are very few. These will probably be revised in future. 6. For your understanding, here I offer an example: look at the words Islam and Muslim : Now search for Eslam and Moslems and Moslims in google. You will find 1000s of links much better that what you are offering for Farsis. But no one added these words to wikipedia as alternative to Islam. Please do not try to destroy the word Persian evenif you may hate it. We should help eachother not to destroy eachother. Take care. -- Sinoheh 11:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Biased wording
Some sectiones in the article have serious problem in wording. Mesopotamia 23:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

PS: Maybe tomorrow I can do it myself.

Mesopotamia 23:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)