Talk:Perso-Arabic alphabet

Extension: a list of languages
Probably, the description of uses of the scriot in different languages should go here.--Imz 00:21, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposed merge

 * Oppose - As far as I can tell the Persian alphabet article is about the primary means of writing the Persian language, and only the Persian language. The Perso-Arabic script article is about the general Arabic script orthography as it has been extended to Persian, Urdu, Pashto, and other languages nearby.  Admittedly, the Perso-Arabic script article does not do a good job of expressing this distinction very well, but merging the two would not maintain a world-wide view of the the Perso-Arabic script, nor adequately describe the specific nuances of the primary writing system used for Persian.  –jonsafari 23:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, so modify it. Jahangard 17:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * However, I think these issues can be explained in "Persian alphabet". See Arabic script and Cyrillic script which are redirected to Arabic alphabet and Cyrillic alphabet. The distinctions that you have mentioned can be expressed in a section of "Persian alphabet". Jahangard 17:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You might notice at the top of the Arabic alphabet article is a tag which states that the article might not represent a worldwide view. This is exactly because speakers of many other languages which use the Arabic script, eg. Urdu, Pashto, Persian, Hausa, etc., feel that the article centers too much on the Arabic language.  That is, the article confuses the Arabic alphabet and the Arabic script.  The latter is the general abjad writing system, and the former is the specific implementation of the Arabic script as it applies to the Arabic language.  The same issue arises with the Perso-Arabic script vs. the Persian alphabet.  Merging the two would likewise result in problems with not representing an international viewpoint of the Perso-Arabic script, and/or not delving into enough detail as to the specific implementation of the script as it applies to the Persian language.–jonsafari 03:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

--Cbdorsett 10:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Support - I support the proposed merger. Strongly. This page started out as a redirect to the Arabic alphabet, which is not really accurate, and went through an incarnation as a redirect to Persian.
 * I agree with Jonsafari about the world-view perspective, but I just don't see the need to elevate "Perso-Arabic" to anything other than a synonym for the Persian alphabet. If we were to do that, we would need special pages for the groups of variants on the Latin alphabet - "German-type" alphabets in which the /v/ phoneme is rendered by W, "Scandinavian-type" alphabets in which y represents a high, rounded front vowel (the German umlauted u), "French-Spanish-type" alphabets where the y is used as in English, "Czech-type" alphabets where ... Do I really have to go on?
 * Just because some unnamed (and uncited) "scholars" may have used the term does not mean that Wikipedia needs a distinct page on the topic. It could be a disambig page, with links to both Persian and Arabic.
 * "Persian alphabet" could also mean the Pahlawi alphabet and the Old Persian cuneiform alphabet. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:58, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Foolish to merge
This article isn't just about Persian. It is about a script which is used to write languages as varied as Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Pashto ,Kashmiri, Malay, Sindhi etc. The name may sound confusing but is in no way restricted to only the Persian language.

As the History of Arabic Alphabet the Persian Alphabet a history of it own. It need to be covered here. When and in what stage the Persian stared adopting the Arabic alphabet? When did they start to modify the Arabic Alphabet? For example the classic Persian lacked /g گ/ and /j ژ/ up to mid 16 century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.215.56 (talk) 23:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. –jonsafari (talk) 02:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

IPA2
Please see the discussion at Talk:IPA2. Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Other characters
I don't know if this has been suggested before, but why not add the letters with hamze (ؤ ئ أ إ)? I only see them mentioned a little bit in a text. I think they should be added to the table of other characters. 19:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. As stated in the section, "Changes from Arabic to Persian," a hamze is not typically written in Persian, whereas in Arabic it is. Hamze-yeh (ئ) and vao-yeh (ؤ) are merely compounds of hamze and yeh or vao.

Transliteration needs to be fixed
The transliteration included is not the one from the Library of Congress. It needs to be fixed and sourced. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:39, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The 5 last "letters"
I just noticed that 5 more "letters" have been added to the Letters section in the article. I honestly don't think these 5 letters are placed correctly. In my opinion, these 5 "letters" are not considered actual letters.

The first two are clearly Arabic diacritics, which are called fatḥa and kasra, thus not actual letters.

The next row has a ḍamma, which is a diacritic too, and furthermore a waw and alef. I can see how alef can give an [o] sound like in the word امید. But is it necesarry to give this sound its own row? Can't we just add the IPA sound to the first row with the alef? Again this seems more like the case of a diacritic rather than an actual letter. And the waw in this row seems redundant too. In the row for the actual waw letter, it has an IPA sound of [u]. Perhaps this should be changed to [o] and then this duplicate waw can be deleted?

The last two rows with the ye and third waw seems to be about exceptions in their pronunciations too, rather than the actual letters.

I suggest we add a new section in the article and move those 5 rows there instead and describe the diacritcs very shortly with reference to the Arabic diacritics article. In this section we can add a Persian view of the diacritics, like how the ḍamma is pronounced [o] in Persian, compared to [u] in Arabic.

My other suggestion is to try and implement these sounds from the five last rows into the other 32 rows for the actual letters. CoverMyIP (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Help needed on wiki "Imagine Peace" page
Help is needed to edit the Persian listing on Imagine Peace Tower to show the proper characters in that language. Photograph of this panel is at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Imagine_Peace_3.jpg and the characters used should depict this exactly even if some would translate the English phrase "Imagine Peace" differently. Thanks. Irv (talk) 16:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Sixth letter same as arabic ?
The letter with three dots which is described as "se" in the table is the same as the letter which is "ta" or "tha" in the arabic list. This seems like quite a difference to me. Are these the same letter ?Eregli bob (talk) 10:47, 27 March 2010 (UTC)