Talk:Person of color/Archive 2

Of light-skin vs european heritage
An IP has been making a change here which is not based on sources as far as I can tell. For example, the Safire article which says "People of color' are every hue but white and are non-European in origin.". While there are of course many differing definitions for people of color, my reading of the literature is clear that it is not just about skin color as the IP is attempting to propose.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:42, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

So you're saying Russians, which are largely Asians are people of color? What is the relevance of them being European or not? There are dark skinned Europeans as well that could be called people of color. Just as there are light skinned Asians that would not be called people of color. The general point of the term "people of color" is to signify that the person is not of light/fair skin. The place on Earth that they are from has little if any significance.
 * I'm saying, wikipedia articles are not based on your opinions of what person of color means. I suggest you read the sources, and if you find a source that says what you're trying to say, then we can talk about the change. Without sources you don't have a leg to stand on. Please stop reverting and don't make further changes until you get consensus - see WP:BRD. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 06:00, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

All human beings are of African ancestry which mutes your point. That's not an opinion, that's science. You merely have an agenda to exclude any Europeans from a phrase that describes skin tone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.88.167.6 (talk) 06:17, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no agenda whatsoever except to follow sources, and the sources tell me person of color is usually applied to those of non-European heritage. Please stop reverting, the wording should stand until a new consensus is formed.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:58, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Non-European heritage
I've replaced the YouTube anecdote with a more reliable resource on the term's genesis. "Person of color" is typically synonymous with individual of non-European heritage. Soupforone (talk) 00:10, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see how the source you added has anything to do with term's genesis. At least, the text you added makes no reference to it. I have no problem with what you added, but I don't see why that would replace something unrelated. -- Irn (talk) 00:20, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, got the links mixed up there. They're in order now. Soupforone (talk) 00:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Opinion Piece about use of the term being uncomfortable among some journalists
I believe it is a reliable source to use a newspaper opinion piece to show how some journalists feel about the term. I added a cited note to the article to the affect that some commentators feel uncomfortable using the term, but this was reverted with the reason given that is was not a reliable source. This is the source article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/08/we-wouldnt-write-afro-caribbean-today-but-is-people-of-colour-ok-now

Having checked out the reliable sources page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS this allows for opinion pieces to be counted as reliable sources in some instances. It mentions specialist in the field, and Human Interest topics. They both seem to be part of this topic as the term has a subjective response from people, rather than being objectively correct or incorrect, and I would argue a journalist is in a position to reliably talk about journalists.

I do of course agree it would be better to have a full blown study on the issue, but I do not think it calls into doubt the statement in the article, as the journalist is reporting observations rather then him simply assuming what others think. Given this, I would like to add the note back into the article. If I am missing something please let me know.Fuzzything (talk) 17:28, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * In general, Wikipedia is skeptical of opinion pieces as sources of fact, but skeptical doesn't have to mean a total exclusion. For instance, an opinion piece is a reliable source for its author's opinion, and we can expect some fact-checking to go into such a published piece in a reliable publication. Further, the Guardian has a reader's editor (equivalent to a public editor) and although that editor's opinions appear as opinion pieces, they typically reflect considered judgments about journalism.


 * In this case, the author's opinion is speculative and unclear, although we could reasonably infer:
 * Guardian reader's editor Chris Elliot has suggested that "people of colour" may be insufficiently specific in the same way that "Africans" is to broad a way to refer to a specific group of people from one African country.
 * Guardian reader's editor Chris Elliot has observed that the use of "people of colour" is acceptable for now. ("Its unfamiliarity in the UK might have been one reason for my colleague’s concern. But it’s fine, for now.")
 * And we could cite this article to support claims like:
 * People of color is more widely used in the United States than the United Kingdom.
 * Some American commentators are uncomfortable with the similarity of "people of color" to the term "colored."
 * People of color/colour has been in use since the 1980s.
 * There are not many facts here on this topic, but I do believe the citation is okay.--Carwil (talk) 13:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Changing "applied generally to people of mixed African and European descent who were freed from slavery or born into freedom" sentence
Wash whites separately has twice changed "applied generally to people of mixed African and European descent who were freed from slavery or born into freedom." to "refer to people of mixed African and European descent during periods of slavery in the Americas." I reverted the first time because "freed from slavery or born into freedom" is not the same thing as "during periods of slavery in the Americas." Wash whites separately provided a source for the change, but it has no URL to help verify that the source is being used accurately. This shows the edit in question. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:23, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll adjust it, since it's just a semantic issue. People can be freed from slavery during periods of slavery. Wash whites separately (talk) 05:35, 6 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Wash whites separately, this edit you made is better because it's clearer. I appreciate the adjustment. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:44, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

The term "radical"
Wash whites separately, regarding this edit, it appears to be fact that Frantz Fanon was a political radical. And it's noted in his Wikipedia article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:09, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. However, since deleted that entire clause, this particular point is kind of moot. Additionally, I don't think the deletion of the popularization of the term by US racial justice activists, influenced by radical theorists, is appropriate. -- Irn (talk) 01:02, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, Irn, feel free to restore the appropriate material. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:39, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
 * No, don't "feel free" to restore unsourced claims. Provide sources first, then restore them. Wash whites separately (talk) 08:59, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Wash whites separately, I stated "appropriate material." But on the topic of sourced information, content in an article being unsourced does not mean it doesn't belong in the article. WP:Preserve is clear about that. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:08, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Wash whites separately, going by this edit, keep in mind that it is good practice to thoroughly check the referencing and that people sometimes do not duplicate references because of what is outlined at WP:Citation overkill. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:31, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Hispanics are not POC or white
Unless a POC is a "non-Hispanic" white, Hispanics aren't counted as POC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.41.72 (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Whether or not Hispanics are POC is a tangential discussion, but concerning this edit, I don't think that matters because the sentence doesn't assume that all Hispanics are people of color but rather asserts that being Hispanic is one factor that can mediate one's experience of racism. -- Irn (talk) 02:34, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Some Hispanics are white, such as Cameron Diaz or Sofía Vergara, most are not and therefore POC; they can be Native (Amerindian), black, Pacific Islander, or even Asian. Hispanic is not a racial identity, it is a different, orthogonal component of a person's identity. By the way, Hispanic is not the same as Latino/Latinx. For example, Gisele Bündchen is not white Hispanic, as she is not of Spanish or Hispanoamerican heritage, but she is white Latina. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:47, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that white people are – both in sociology and in daily practice – exclusively (or overwhelmingly dominant) European heritage. Many people of Spanish, Hispanoamerican or Latin American are of exclusively European heritage, so they are white. Those who are not white are by definition POC. That's the whole point of the term. There is nobody outside the white/POC divide. Either you are white or you are not. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:59, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Merge with "Colored"

 * The two relatively small articles speak essentially of the same. The subtleties of usage, if any, may be covered in the joint page. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:23, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The terms are not the same thing, which is why "person of color" is the preferred term and "colored" is largely considered outdated and offensive these days. Furthermore, "person of color" can refer to any non-white person, while "colored" was used to refer to African Americans. My statements on these matters are well-covered by the literature. I don't see that the articles are essentially the same. In any case, if a merge were to happen, the Colored article should be merged into this article, not the other way around. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:22, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Flyer. There is overlap, but they are not the same.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 06:58, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I concur with your point that the difference between "Colored" and "Person of color" lies in subtleties, but that doesn't warrant lumping the two together. Whilst the term "Person of color" is in one sense a re-branding of "colored", the latter is also a term of greater historical significance internationally due to Apartheid et al, whereas "POC" has yet to catch on in non-American English. Danish Ranger 20:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

History is not correct
Work on the Oxford English Dictionary did not begin until 1854. This article quotes The American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style as a source stating that the OED used the term "people of color" in 1796. Since the OED did not exist in 1796 a better source for the origin of the term in the English language is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhotep (talk • contribs) 17:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Good call. I'm guessing that was just poorly written and it really means that the OED cites the use from 1796, not that it was cited in the 1796 OED. If someone with access to the full OED could clear that up, that would be great. For the moment, I've re-worded it and tagged it to draw attention to this discussion. -- Irn (talk) 18:05, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Category:Euphemisms
Apparently, Category:Euphemisms was removed from this article. Connor Behan restored it. I'm not sure that the term should be in this category. Thoughts? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:58, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm not sure either. If I had to guess why it was added, coining a term to mean the same thing as "racial minority" but carry a more positive connotation fits the definition of euphemism. On the other hand, communities that say "of color" the most are usually the ones where people feel most free to be unapologetic. In any case, a discussion would do some good because how we categorize this affects how often we should aim to use the word on Wikipedia. Connor Behan (talk) 05:29, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

'Systemic' racism
The article uses the phrase 'systemic racism' without citing a source that evidences where systemic racism exists. I therefore think the article should not include the word 'systemic'. I also think 'common experiences of systemic racism' (presumably meaning shared experiences) is a problematic phrase - if systemic racism exists, which it may well do at certain institutions, do all POCs experience it? Phoarefan (talk) 17:17, 16 March 2018 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phoarefan (talk • contribs) 16:12, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * There are two sources at the end of that sentence. I don't have access to either of them, but, as I have no reason to believe otherwise, I have to assume that the person who added them does (or did), and that said user included them at that location because they support the text. -- irn (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Understood - at the very least though, we can't reasonably expect the sources evidence that all POCs experience systemic racism. So 1) the idea of common experience seems to mislead and 2) why should the term 'person of color' emphasize any such experiences, or emphasize anything at all? Surely the term should be left to define what it defines, rather than also emphasizing something. Phoarefan (talk) 12:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I don't really know how to engage with you on this because I think you're arguing against the sources. Our job here is to relate the information as found in reliable sources. Debating things like whether all POC experience systemic racism or why a term might emphasize something seems tangential to me. If you disagree with the state of the article, you need to bring in sources that back up how you want to change the article. -- irn (talk) 14:05, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Clarification regarding color
I think the article needs to clarify that the color in question is brown (or shades of brown). It may indeed be historically accurate to refer to non-whites as persons of color, however, it is confusing from a reader perspective because they only come in a single color: brown. This includes their eyes and hair as well unless they are mixed with a white person whose colored hair and/or eye genes remain dominant. Speaking of hair and eyes, my golden hair and deep-blue eyes are more colorful and diverse than a brown person of color. Henry Ford once said as a joke you can get a car in any color as it is black. This is not a joke though, the phrase person(s) of color is widely used to refer to brown people. Brown is not even a color in the rainbow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.216.159.22 (talk • contribs)
 * I think some East Asian folks might disagree.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 04:28, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Please explain. There are brown East Asians and there are (predominantly) white Eady Asians. Not sure what you were going for unless your intentions were racist and you were referring to a different color that begins with Y. It is an objective fact that people of color are all brown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:0:80F:0:0:0:6F (talk) 03:18, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

"Political specificities"
The section political specificities has the following problems: 1) specificities is not a word, nor does "political specificities" mean anything. 2) the content is irrelevent to the article.

Is there consensus for removing the section? It was added by an IP on 17:34, 13 April 2018.--Ermenrich (talk) 03:38, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Usage
I have seen a lot of misuse of the abbreviation PoC. (e.g. "PoCs") Perhaps adding a part about the usage of the abbreviation will be helpful to the page, which is in my opinion severely lacking. Disaposi (talk) 16:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

“PoC”
Isn’t white a color too? 1pink2red (talk) 16:51, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the term PoC refers to racial minorities. Disaposi (talk) 16:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * What about white racial minorities? "Racial minority" is an incredibly subjective term as the term "race" has multiple meanings. the term "minority" in this sense also has loads of meanings of who is included and who is not. In every country in the world there is a population of white people and there are white minorities in all of them.UaMaol (talk) 02:55, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I added Asian Americans
I removed it cuz there was never a good source. skakEL 14:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * here is the diff where I removed it

Racism
The term "People of Colour" denotes "NON-WHITE" people. Some people though, prefer the complete wiki definition below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.73.38.57 (talk) 16:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC) The term "People of Color" has it's roots in white supremacy, by way of the groups and individuals who supported a notion of racial "superiority". This was evidenced in religion, science and the governments (not just the U.S.) who sanctioned these ideas. While the U.S. has long since abandoned such notions, the term is now used as a means of coalition building among non-white peoples. It's employed politically in places where there is a majority of Caucasian peoples, usually when opposing that majority. It is a social construct that perpetuates a political separation between "whites" and everybody else. In reality there is no such scientific distinction - all peoples, from dark to light have varying degrees of melanin, and can be considered "colored". And whatever the terminology used, no "race" can actually be excluded or separated from the rest of the Human spectrum. However popular the term in news media and journalism, it is a fundamentally racist construct, as is any attempt to isolate or separate one racial group from others. My hope is that editors explore this idea in more detail. This meaning is not referenced in the article. EyePhoenix (talk) 07:06, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

perhaps this topic (terminology) is mainly a US-related subject matter?
looking at that worldwide tag. perhaps this terminology or the theory behind it takes place primarily in the US. if so, is that measurable? skakEL 19:54, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In the Netherlands the phrase "personen van kleur" is used in academia and leftist activism. Literally meaning "people of color". Those groups have a tendency to import almost all social ideas and phrases from US universities and voice them in certain media, but they are not representative of society as a whole. Someone Not Awful (talk) 17:34, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The exact same is the case in the UK. Where "ethnic minority" was once the preferred term, branching out BAME/BAEM/BME (Black, Asian, Minor, Ethnic), the Usonified term "Person of colour" has now taken root. This is especially a problem when PoC is used as a synonym, yet excluding all white people, despite white minorities making up a large part of the population. PoC has allusions towards "coloured" and highlights antiquated scientific racist differences which society has been trying to be rid of for decades. As you say, these are not representative of society as whole, and therefore do not represent a worldwide view! UaMaol (talk) 07:39, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * "Person of color" definitely has nothing to do with people being dolichocephalic or hereditary criminality, much less modern proponents of scientific racism who to my knowledge are all political conservatives rather than the sort who would say "person of color" (attempts to use Wikipedia to promote that stuff has actually been quite a problem during the past decade, see WP:ARBR&I and WP:AE), and to imply otherwise is absurd. Discrimination against people based on their appearance is a very real thing, and the intention is very much to not include minorities like left-handed people: the point of this term is to highlight disparities in the way societies (the multiple Anglophone societies cited in the article) treat people on a particular axis.Quite possibly people discuss this less in public outside of the U.S.; if there are reliable, verifiable, etc. sources saying so it may be appropriate to add them to the article. There is great political pressure to not talk about it here at the moment, too. -- ‿Ꞅ truthious 𝔹 andersnatch ͡ &#124;℡&#124; 08:44, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Is a mixed-race person who is both white and something other than white a "person of color?"
The article defines a person of color as a person who is non-white. Does that mean that if a person has a white parent, that person is not "of color?" Redeye000 (talk) 00:24, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No, mixed people are POC too, although they may be able to pass as white. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:21, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * For example, Obama is definitely a POC. Due to the heritage of the one-drop rule, POC in the US are theoretically a very large group that includes many people who nobody thinks of as POC, and who may not self-identify as POC, either. Some people of (wholly or partially) non-European heritage may pass and self-identify as white because they still have a "Caucasian" appearance, for example, Steve Jobs or Kim Kardashian. There are white Latinxs, too, for example Sofía Vergara. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:54, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I was also wondering about this. I'm half Japanese, quarter French, and quarter German. I've lived all my life in the US and speak only english, if that counts for anything. I've gotten conflicting answers from people, so I never know how to answer survey questions. I think it would be good if this article could clarify this. Benjamin (talk) 23:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't found anything that answers this specifically so far but I thought I'd mention a few things I have found: first, a 2009 article by a British anthropologist surveying and discussing various terms that might be used for people of mixed heritage, “person of color” unfortunately not among them.Then there are a couple of open-access resources on the general topic I came across which I thought I'd leave links to in case they're of interest to you or someone else reading this talk page in the future:
 * a 2012 academic paper “Rethinking Research on Multiracial College Students: Toward an Integrative Model of Multiraciality for Campus Climate”
 * a 2017 book Identity Politics of Difference: The Mixed-Race American Indian Experience by Michelle R. Montgomery,
 * -- ‿Ꞅ truthious 𝔹 andersnatch ͡ &#124;℡&#124; 03:38, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * And actually, I just realized I've been overlooking some extremely recent anecdata: with the recent election of Kamala Harris as VPOTUS, there have been a spate of articles declaring that she isn't the first Vice President of color, but that Herbert Hoover's VP Charles Curtis, who had a white father and a Kaw Nation mother, was—see the Washington Post here frex:or the NYT:So that's at least enough to put in the Wiktionary entry, I think, and hence I'm at least adding it to . Hopefully I'll come across a suitable Wikipedia-type source for here. -- ‿Ꞅ truthious 𝔹 andersnatch ͡ &#124;℡&#124; 04:31, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Nov 2020 edits need review
An anonymous IP added several edits about problems with the term, with sources, but those got reverted. Why were the sourced claims reverted? Were the URLs not legit? The IP editor has since restored some of their content, but without sources. Should this information be tagged CN, or removed from the article? Aristophanes68 (talk) 21:50, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The person doing the reverting has also been warned about vandalism for reverting other edits. In fact the vast majority of their edits are manual reverts of good edits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/BlaineStu2025 194.207.86.26 (talk) 10:42, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Someone else reverted that IP's contributions again. I restored the references, since they seem legit. Aristophanes68 (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Coloured People in South Africa
The wording in the introduction of this article seems to imply that the term coloured is a recent development in South Africa, when it really isn't. It also has developed a different meaning to the one used in the USA, which should be noted in the article. Drakenwolf (talk) 08:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for pointing this out, Drakenwolf; I was entirely aware of this fact but failed to take note of the omission while I've looked at this article during the last few weeks. I've changed the last paragraph in the lede to readBut feel free to make any improvements you see fit. -- ‿Ꞅ truthious 𝔹 andersnatch ͡ &#124;℡&#124; 10:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Why the term is irrelevant
Non-whites are no more colored than whites — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9001:5005:ED00:10B0:9B69:D552:83ED (talk) 15:54, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Offensive term?
"Person of color" can be viewed by some people as offensive, because it defines people by their color, instead of just as people. It's also anti-white, as it sets everyone who is nonwhite against those that are white. This is still racism.

What's better is to dispense with reference to color. "African-American" refers to a geographic location; the color of the person does not matter. Ryoung 122 03:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I reverted your changes as they are unsourced and appear to be WP:OR. The article is about the use of the term. All occasions of offense at the term can only be included from reliable sources.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A talk page isn't a forum for discussing the topic generally. Please see WP:Talk page guidelines:"The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." -- Irn (talk) 01:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Where else to discuss it? Citing rules to undermine discussions is no way of handling sensible aspects of general debates. The term "colored" and "colored people" has already been outlawed in several European countries, because of similar aspects as provieded above by Ryoung. Perhaps the positive tone of this article of this term should be somewhat relative to these facts and -- 92.231.36.6 (talk) 08:20, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the problem here is that it's very much an American PC term, which serves a very real socio-political function in the US, for obvious historic racial reasons, but is considered ludicrous or offensive in the rest of the world. There should be a section carefully describing criticism of the term, or opposition to it, along with international perspectives, with reliable sources, of course. Gymnophoria (talk) 03:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * One of the core policies of Wikipedia is that of NPOV. Usually, major alternative interpretations of a socio-political term are acceptable and even encouraged. To NOT have that here is not only POV, but ironically, also "PC". Ryoung 122 20:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I would like to see something about attitudes towards the term outside of the USA. I think in the UK it's considered at best trite and overly PC and at worst a racial slur similar to simply saying 'coloured' (although I don't have a source, only personal experience). Which can lead to some interesting (but time wasting) debates with Americans during any cross-cultural discussion of race issues. Especially when they have a similar reaction to UK PC terms like Black British. It would be nice to have an established authority to turn to when this comes up and since (for me at least) it mainly happens online Wikipedia would be the perfect place.

Aside from all that theres also the fact that if it was/is used anywhere outside the USA it'd be good to cover it. Especially if it was brought in a potential PC term and then rejected like 'Differently abled'. Danikat (talk) 10:08, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

It is a racist term, because the Ku Klux Klan originally used this term back in the day. So yes, it is racist and a white supremacist term, "reclaimed" or not. Grand Armor (talk) 04:08, 1 July 2017 (UTC)


 * This is an English language term, and the majority of the world's native English speakers are American. So, by definition, how the word is viewed elsewhere will be (oh, rich irony!) a minority view.


 * Furthermore, the total population of black Americans is vastly higher than in other major English-speaking countries. There were 47,841,851 black Americans in 2018 according to the Census Bureau, whereas only 3% of Britain's 67 million people -- about 2 million in total -- are classified as Black British. The numbers in Canada and Australia are even lower than in Britain, and that's with aborigines included in the black figure for Australia. So, in point of fact, what black Americans choose to call themselves represents, by far, the terminology preferred by the vast majority of the world's black people living in the "inner circle" of English-speaking countries, simply because most of the world's English-speaking countries simply have very few black people present within them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhilHudson82 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

This article is problematic for readers in the UK as many black and minority communities find being described as 'people of colour' offensive. The article can maintain an NPOV whilst still explaining this. Stub Mandrel (talk) 22:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Person of Color Can Be A Racist Term
As a Hispanic, whose ancestors came from Spain and Ireland hundreds of years ago, I find the term 'Person of Color' to be racist because it negates my race and my DNA. Regardless of whether my skin is lighter or darker, I am still caucasian. Skin pigmentation is meaningless in determining if your race is white or not. The article on 'Person of Color' has many offensive and erroneous conclusions. That term is not preferred by anyone I know, including Asians, in spite of what the author says. The few people I have heard use the term to describe themselves have all been African-Americans. Such an offensive article has no place in Wikipedia, especially when edits are removed. The fact that articles are quoted to justify such nonsense doesn't make it right. I can assure anyone that thinks it's ok to call me a 'person of color' that I will tell them exactly what I believe, and that is that the term is racist and offensive because except for true albinos every human being is a person of color. Of course, we all know that the author is not referring to every human being, just to the ones who don't fit his criteria of white. That in my opinion is the true mark of a racist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carmeniris1 (talk • contribs) 01:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Feel free to add references to the article in which reliable sources say that some people find "person of color" to be offensive. --Alynna (talk) 13:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * This seems a very US-centric article. Calling someone "colored", or a "person of color" is considered racist in the UK, much of Europe and Austrlia.  US Asians tend to find it offensive being thrown into a racial coalition with everyone else who's not white.  As a white European myself I find it personally offensive - are white people therefore colourless?  Colourless has a lot of negative connotations.  This article needs bulking out with some international perspective and criticism. Gymnophoria (talk) 10:37, 29 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I found this in the first sentence: is a term used, primarily in the United States,. Seems clear on the scope. Again, feel free to add reliable sources on its offensiveness to some.--Carwil (talk) 11:43, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is a reliable source - I find the term offensive. -- 92.231.36.6 (talk) 08:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The definition of reliable source used on Wikipedia does not include personal testimony.
 * The purpose of the term "people of colour" is to refer to people who experience prejudice, discrimination and oppression on the basis of systemic racism, at least in Europe and North America; the term is thus somewhat Eurocentric, but still relevant on a global scale, as people of colour are disadvantaged on a global scale, even if the institutions in their respective countries of residence may happen not to systemically discriminate against all people of colour, and possibly even happen to discriminate against white people. (I am speaking in the context of the sociological theory on which this term is based.) The term is not itself racist, in the sense that using it is or makes you racist, it merely reflects a pre-existing racist construct. It is not a scientific, biological concept, but a sociological category! It does not endorse any particular racial classification. In fact, people who use the term are typically opposed to racial classifications and consider them pseudoscientific. If Pakistanis, Afghans, Iranians, West Asians and North Africans (i. e., non-Europeans), unless they happen to "pass" as white, are factually treated as non-white and experience racist prejudice, discrimination and oppression (and there is plenty of evidence that they do), at least in countries where the ruling class is (or identifies as) mostly or entirely white, or the institutions are dominated by whites, Pakistanis, Afghans etc. count as people of colour, even if in racial classifications they are usually considered white/Caucasian – theoretically, that is. (The same is true for Hispanics/Latins – some can "pass" as white, but most, especially those with dark skin or hair, are not factually treated as white, and in effect treated as people of colour, regardless of how they might be classified racially in theory. Even some Sami may not "pass" as white, despite technically being European.) This is because they are in practice denied "white privilege", i. e., the advantages and rights accorded to white people virtually as a matter of course but denied all others. (The subjectivity and arbitrary nature of the term "white" is best exemplified by the observation that in the US, in the early 20th century even Sicilians or Irish seem not always to have been treated as fully white, and not least by the fate of the Jews. Personally, I like the term "visible minority", despite the problematic implications of the term "minority", as people are treated as white or people of colour – "foreigners" – basically on their appearance – not allegedly objective racial classifications! –, which can also include clothing choice, behaviour or even audible characteristics such as a foreign or stigmatised accent, so much that even a typically Caucasian-looking person can "pass" as a person of colour – also thanks to the legacy of the "one-drop rule" –, purely and simply by dressing up, see Rachel Dolezal. Clothes make people, and appearances are deceiving.) Social-justice jargon is based on sociological lingo, so if you object to the notions expounded here, you have to take the issue up with sociologists, not random activists on the Internet. Most criticisms here are concerned with subjectively defined categories or get bogged down into pedantic sophistry, word-games and "maybe you are the real racist here!"-style table-turning tactics and thus miss the entire point. In more popular language: You can be "technically" 100% white/Caucasian – if society treats you as "brown" and self-identified white people shun you and confront you all sorts of insulting labels and stereotypes, you can't buy anything for your "technical whiteness". And finally, Wikipedia describes how terms are used in the real world, not what random, pseudonymous Internet surfers think about these terms. Nobody cares. Also, the article is necessarily US-centric because the term was invented in North America, is used only in English, and the USA are an extremely racist society. Exhibit A: Donald Trump and the appallingly numerous positive reactions he gets. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:47, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Correction: The term is inherently a US-centric term because it is pretty much only used in the USA. It can only applied to Western countries in the first place, where "white" is the default. As explained here, a person of colour is a person of partly or fully non-European ancestry in a white-majority country (and who is therefore subject to racism, the experience of racism being the bond that unites all people of colour and thus makes the term relevant and useful), as opposed to a white person, who is exclusively or almost exclusively of European descent; a Chinese person in China (or Singapore, presumably) is not a person of colour, not being subject to racist discrimination, while a Chinese person in the US, Germany or Australia is. And while a white person can definitely not be a person of colour, a white-passing person of not exclusively (or almost exclusively) European ancestry can choose to identify as a person of colour. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:37, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

There is a problem with this discussion page as many North American editors seem unwilling to accept or validate that people from the UK and other countries often find the term 'people of colour' offensive or at least insensitive regardless of their own racial background. The following link can help illustrate the complexity of feeling in the UK if nothing else []. Stub Mandrel (talk) 22:19, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2021
The White Hispanic and Latino Americans section includes the following sentence:

"Latinos can be white, black, Native American, Asian, or any mixture of these, just as North Americans can be."

Recommend removing "just as North Americans can be" since it implies that North America and Latin America are distinct and separate places when much of Latin America is in North America (consistent with the list of countries included in the Wikipedia entry on North America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America#Countries,_territories,_and_dependencies. Melsh87 (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 18:31, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

WP:OR/WP:SYNTH
I have removed certain WP:OR/WP:SYN content here. The article already mentions that "The use of the phrase person of color to describe white Hispanic and Latino Americans and Spaniards has been criticized as inaccurate" and includes some related criticism from others (Falcón et al.).

The remaining content is either duplicative (in some cases) or WP:SYN/WP:OR (in other cases). Some of these sources don't mention the phrase "person of color" or similar at all, and appear to be cobbled together to make some additional point in essay-style. That's not good for an encyclopedia.

Some of this content may be OK at a different article, such as Definitions of whiteness in the United States, white Hispanic and Latino Americans, etc. Neutralitytalk 23:14, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * And, to break this down this morass of OR, even further, just to take a few of the citations in the morass:
 * White House "1997 document" - deadlink, no mention of "persons of color"
 * Census publication from May 2011 on Cubans who identify as white - deadlink, no mention of "persons of color," not relevant to this page, already covered by the statement already in the article
 * Fowler 2020 (blog post): does not support the text (e.g., "indiscriminate labeling")
 * Kirkus Review of Roediger book: no mention of "persons of color" at all. Again, maybe useful at Definitions of whiteness in the United States.
 * Yglesias piece: Blog post, does not support the text, already covered by material earlier in the article.
 * --Neutralitytalk 14:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the exclusion of Slavic People
I have a reliable source. What do you mean by "generally"? It seems arbitrary to trump the objective with whims. BasedMises Mont Pelerin 00:12, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Both are primary sources. Please find reliable secondary sources that say people of Slavic descent are people of color. Some1 (talk) 00:21, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I have a source. https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/05/communities_of_color_coalition.html BasedMises Mont Pelerin 00:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have any sources not from the Communities of Color Coalition (which your three sources are all based on)? Preferably scholarly and academic sources. Some1 (talk) 00:31, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Although it most certainly is enough, here is another one: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED445991.pdf EDIT: also this: https://www.oregon.gov/oha/covid19/EquityPlan/Clackamas.pdf BasedMises Mont Pelerin 00:33, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The first one is an opinion paper and the second one is a letter to the governor. Both are still primary sources. Some1 (talk) 00:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Conflicting meanings of the term
The article opens stating that 'The term "person of color"... is primarily used to describe any person who is not considered "white".' Okay, so it means non-white. However, the article also states that 'The term emphasizes common experiences of systemic racism'. In that case it does not simply mean non-white. You can bring this conflict out with an example: Is a rural Chinese peasant a 'person of color'? They are obviously non-white, yet they will have experienced no 'systemtic racism' to speak of. The same is true of almost all non-white people before about the year 1500. So if such people are a 'person of color', then the term does not necessarily 'emphasize common experiences of systemtic racism'. On the other hand, if they are not a 'person of color', then the term obviously does not refer to non-white people but only a subsection. Thoughts? LastDodo (talk) 16:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree that the "systemic racism" aspect of the definition, which comes from two reliable sources, presupposes that it is people in white-dominated societies that are "persons of color." Perhaps some context can be added to that aspect of the definition.  AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I modified the sentence so that it reads "the term, as used in the United States, emphasizes common experiences of systemic racism." I think that that eliminates the conflict.  AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Though an improvement, which I thank you for, that doesn't quite clarify it, as it is still not clear whether even when used in the US the term would apply to the proverbial Han Dynasty Chinese peasant. Would an American describe such a person as a POC? LastDodo (talk) 09:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , it's possible that the sources currently used in the article don't address this apparent conflict. All we can do is summarise sources - if you know of a source that discusses how the phrase should be interpreted in the terms you have mentioned, that would potentially allow us to address this. Girth Summit  (blether)  10:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I do not. There may in fact be no definitive answer, i.e. people who use the term regularly may disagree. The Cambridge Dictionary defines it as 'someone who does not consider himself or herself to be white' which leaves out the systemic racism part, siding with 'non-white', but introducing the further complication of self-identification. NPR says that a lot of people don't like it for various reasons including that 'it evokes a racist past', which is surely contrary to the claim that it emphasises systemic racism. Definitions.com says twice that it means non-white before giving a more expansive definition: 'Person of color is a term used primarily in the United States to describe any person who is not white. The term is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups, emphasizing common experiences of racism.' So I suspect there is no definitive answer to be found. Based on usage, it seems to me people mean something like 'non-white people in the West or who have experienced racism at the hands of Westerners' but I haven't seen any source that would define it as such. LastDodo (talk) 10:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

British colonies
In Martin's 1843 statistical book of the British colonies, freed slaves of Jamaica and the Caribbean are considered "persons of colour". The main article makes no mention of the British usage of the term except for the mention of it being relatively recent. The context it is found also implies wholly black people and not mixed. "Persons of colour are now admitted to all the privileges of white persons, and there are no civil disabilities from religious differences." 35.46.3.149 (talk) 03:23, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Conflicting meanings of the term
The article opens stating that 'The term "person of color"... is primarily used to describe any person who is not considered "white".' Okay, so it means non-white. However, the article also states that 'The term emphasizes common experiences of systemic racism'. In that case it does not simply mean non-white. You can bring this conflict out with an example: Is a rural Chinese peasant a 'person of color'? They are obviously non-white, yet they will have experienced no 'systemtic racism' to speak of. The same is true of almost all non-white people before about the year 1500. So if such people are a 'person of color', then the term does not necessarily 'emphasize common experiences of systemic racism'. On the other hand, if they are not a 'person of color', then the term obviously does not refer to non-white people but only a subsection. Thoughts? LastDodo (talk) 16:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that the "systemic racism" aspect of the definition, which comes from two reliable sources, presupposes that it is people in white-dominated societies that are "persons of color." Perhaps some context can be added to that aspect of the definition.  AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I modified the sentence so that it reads "the term, as used in the United States, emphasizes common experiences of systemic racism." I think that that eliminates the conflict.  AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Though an improvement, which I thank you for, that doesn't quite clarify it, as it is still not clear whether even when used in the US the term would apply to the proverbial Han Dynasty Chinese peasant. Would an American describe such a person as a POC? LastDodo (talk) 09:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , it's possible that the sources currently used in the article don't address this apparent conflict. All we can do is summarise sources - if you know of a source that discusses how the phrase should be interpreted in the terms you have mentioned, that would potentially allow us to address this. Girth Summit  (blether)  10:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I do not. There may in fact be no definitive answer, i.e. people who use the term regularly may disagree. The Cambridge Dictionary defines it as 'someone who does not consider himself or herself to be white' which leaves out the systemic racism part, siding with 'non-white', but introducing the further complication of self-identification. NPR says that a lot of people don't like it for various reasons including that 'it evokes a racist past', which is surely contrary to the claim that it emphasises systemic racism. Definitions.com says twice that it means non-white before giving a more expansive definition: 'Person of color is a term used primarily in the United States to describe any person who is not white. The term is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups, emphasizing common experiences of racism.' So I suspect there is no definitive answer to be found. Based on usage, it seems to me people mean something like 'non-white people in the West or who have experienced racism at the hands of Westerners' but I haven't seen any source that would define it as such. LastDodo (talk) 10:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: The Economics of Social Justice and Injustice
— Assignment last updated by WCSUEconProf (talk) 00:57, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Insulting term
A black, American woman, as a Guest on Woman's Hour, objected to the (white, female) presenter referring to her as a 'person of colour'. She said, I am a black woman, and proud of it. She also said that everyone is 'of colour' unless they are transparent or invisible. 86.145.140.135 (talk) 10:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Frantz Fanon & National Women's Conference
It would be helpful to flesh out the details regarding Frantz Fanon inspiring this shift in verbiage as well as providing more on the group of black women who used WOC at the National Women's Conference of 1977. Realtalk3657 (talk) 12:33, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Conflicting meanings of the term
The article opens stating that 'The term "person of color"... is primarily used to describe any person who is not considered "white".' Okay, so it means non-white. However, the article also states that 'The term emphasizes common experiences of systemic racism'. In that case it does not simply mean non-white. You can bring this conflict out with an example: Is a rural Chinese peasant a 'person of color'? They are obviously non-white, yet they will have experienced no 'systemtic racism' to speak of. The same is true of almost all non-white people before about the year 1500. So if such people are a 'person of color', then the term does not necessarily 'emphasize common experiences of systemic racism'. On the other hand, if they are not a 'person of color', then the term obviously does not refer to non-white people but only a subsection. Thoughts? LastDodo (talk) 16:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that the "systemic racism" aspect of the definition, which comes from two reliable sources, presupposes that it is people in white-dominated societies that are "persons of color." Perhaps some context can be added to that aspect of the definition.  AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I modified the sentence so that it reads "the term, as used in the United States, emphasizes common experiences of systemic racism." I think that that eliminates the conflict.  AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Though an improvement, which I thank you for, that doesn't quite clarify it, as it is still not clear whether even when used in the US the term would apply to the proverbial Han Dynasty Chinese peasant. Would an American describe such a person as a POC? LastDodo (talk) 09:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , it's possible that the sources currently used in the article don't address this apparent conflict. All we can do is summarise sources - if you know of a source that discusses how the phrase should be interpreted in the terms you have mentioned, that would potentially allow us to address this. Girth Summit  (blether)  10:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I do not. There may in fact be no definitive answer, i.e. people who use the term regularly may disagree. The Cambridge Dictionary defines it as 'someone who does not consider himself or herself to be white' which leaves out the systemic racism part, siding with 'non-white', but introducing the further complication of self-identification. NPR says that a lot of people don't like it for various reasons including that 'it evokes a racist past', which is surely contrary to the claim that it emphasises systemic racism. Definitions.com says twice that it means non-white before giving a more expansive definition: 'Person of color is a term used primarily in the United States to describe any person who is not white. The term is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups, emphasizing common experiences of racism.' So I suspect there is no definitive answer to be found. Based on usage, it seems to me people mean something like 'non-white people in the West or who have experienced racism at the hands of Westerners' but I haven't seen any source that would define it as such. LastDodo (talk) 10:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This discussion remains unresolved so I undeleted it and I hope others can offer their own opinion. LastDodo (talk) 10:01, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Add section on use of the term outside English
It's currently widely used in German, for instance: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Color Ozone node (talk) 07:24, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Who does BIPOC exclude?
This term is defined more broadly by some, more narrowly by others. Is it correct to say that (to some) it simply means "Everybody but White people?" Pete unseth (talk) 14:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The terms seems very Europhobic. 80.195.3.151 (talk) 08:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC)