Talk:Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump/Archive 1

What about Tevfik Arif?
Here's another Trump connection to organized crime, involving eastern European models:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-09-30/bayrock-s-arif-detained-by-police-in-turkish-prostitution-raid-on-yacht

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/trump-pal-busted-allegedly-running-hooker-ring-yacht-article-1.191136

One of the models who was detained bit a law enforcement person during the raid, which came after seven months of investigation.

168.88.65.6 (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Better source for 3,500 number
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/01/donald-trump-lawsuits-legal-battles/84995854/?csp=breakingnews 168.88.65.6 (talk) 21:40, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Logo confusion
The Trump Series template may confuse some readers insofar as it blurs the distinctions between the logos used by The Trump Organization, Donald J. Trump for President Inc., and Trump personally.

The text font in the logo Trump uses on his airplane is Arial Black, whereas the text font in the campaign logo used by Donald J. Trump for President Inc. is Franklin Gothic.

See Text Logo Template talk and File talk. --Dervorguilla (talk) 05:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Need to sync with main
Hi,

It looks like this article is sort of an expanded version of Donald_Trump, but that article mentions something like 320 (3.2 X 10^3) lawsuits instead of 3,500 (3.5 X 10^4) lawsuits involving Trump, which is the findings of a several-months-long nationwide survey by USA Today. Also, the reporting in the other article sounds like I'm reading from a Donald Trump (tm) website, not something fair and balanced. According to Donald_Trump it doesn't seem like the subject of the article has ever done anything to warrant legal trouble, and that aggression was not really ever a part of any of the lawsuits and counter-lawsuits he initiated. I would be surprised if there was any news article, reporting on the lawsuits in question, that has anywhere near the permissive and dismissive tone of Donald_Trump. I also want to point out that that article has daily readership above 50,000 (5 X 10^4) and this one above 50 (5 X 10^1). Cheers!168.88.65.6 (talk) 16:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)


 * You can help out, if you'd like, with syncing them. You should register an account with Wikipedia. Neutralitytalk 16:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Trump sued ex-wife Ivana
What about the time D. sued his ex-wife for $25 million to enforce their divorce agreement in which she wasn't supposed to talk to anybody about D.? 168.88.65.6 (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Done.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:10, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Trump and Jeffrey Epstein court date
This source and this one say their first court date in the Katie Johnson/"Jane Doe" civil case is on September 9, 2016. Are these legitimate reliable sources to include in the article, or is it just original research to include these in the article? 173.67.106.134 (talk) 02:42, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * We should have a reliable secondary source to indicate both the notability and accuracy of this.CFredkin (talk) 04:47, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Is Snopes reliable as a secondary source if it cites the link I just mentioned and cite both of them? 173.67.106.134 (talk) 23:42, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Reliability of Snopes articles citing legal documents
This Snopes article contains a copy of a rape lawsuit against Donald Trump. Is a Snopes article reliable if it cites links to legal documents like this one and I cite both of these sources? 173.67.106.134 (talk) 02:12, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't believe Snopes is considered WP:reliable regardless. I also believe this is an WP:Undue amount of content to add to this article for a civil suit which hasn't gone to court yet.CFredkin (talk) 03:49, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Is Morning News USA a reliable source?
Is this a reliable source? 173.67.106.134 (talk) 15:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)


 * It looks like it may be... It appears to be under editorial control. You can always check the Reliable Sources Noticeboard to see if it's been discussed previously.CFredkin (talk) 18:30, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It hasn't been previously discussed. I am currently discussing it there. 173.67.106.134 (talk) 19:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Discussion about lead picture at Donald Trump
You are invited to participate in an ongoing talk-page discussion about the lead picture at Donald Trump. --Dervorguilla (talk) 06:23, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Reliability of Courthouse News Service
Is Courthouse News Service a reliable source to cite regarding the lawsuit against Trump and Epstein? I would like to get feedback before making more edits. 173.67.106.134 (talk) 04:46, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. Courthouse News Service. --Nbauman (talk) 18:33, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Racial discrimination
An NBC story broadcast eyewitness testimony that Donald Trump and his father gave orders to his rental agent to discriminate against black applicants, and said, "You know I don't rent to [n-word]."

Here's the Rachel Maddow version:

The Rachel Maddow Show, MSNBC, 10/26/16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgJqOCKGN5A&feature=youtu.be&t=300

In 1963, according to Stanley Liebowitz, Trump's rental agent, Maxine Brown, a nurse, applied for an apartment in Trump Village. Donald Trump was in the room next to his when his father told Liebowitz, "Put it in the drawer. You know I don't rent to [n-word]." Donald Trump shook his head affirmatively.

Annette Gandy Fortt, a teacher rejected for an apartment in Queens, said, "When Donald Trump said that he didn't admit guilt, that may be true, but the fact that there was guilt there had to come out."

Rachel Maddow said, "It is not true that that this lawsuit was brought against a ton of companies nationwide. The first lawsuit was brought against the Trump organization."

Maddow said that the Trump organization's reply was a "non-responsive" denial.

Here's the NBC News story:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/not-wanted-black-applicants-rejected-trump-housing-speak-out-n671966 'Not Wanted': Black Applicants Rejected for Trump Housing Speak Out by Cynthia McFadden, Anna R. Schecter and Hannah Rappleye NBC News Oct 25 2016 "Mr. Trump and his son Donald came into the office. I asked what I should do with this application [from Maxine Brown] because she's calling constantly and his response to me was, 'You know I don't rent to the N-word. Put it in a drawer and forget about it,'" Leibowitz, 89, told NBC News. --Nbauman (talk) 05:19, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Libel Bully
Story in the New York Times about an American Bar Association article on Trump's libel suits. This is valuable because it's an assessment by some of the most respected libel lawyers in the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/25/us/politics/donald-trump-lawsuits-american-bar-association.html Fearing Lawsuit, Bar Association Stifles Report Calling Trump a ‘Libel Bully’ By ADAM LIPTAK OCT. 24, 2016 WASHINGTON — Alarmed by Donald J. Trump’s record of filing lawsuits to punish and silence his critics, a committee of media lawyers at the American Bar Association commissioned a report on Mr. Trump’s litigation history. The report concluded that Mr. Trump was a “libel bully” who had filed many meritless suits attacking his opponents and had never won in court. But the bar association refused to publish the report, citing “the risk of the A.B.A. being sued by Mr. Trump.” ... The article was entitled “Donald J. Trump Is a Libel Bully but Also a Libel Loser.” --Nbauman (talk) 22:21, 24 October 2016 (UTC)


 * This story has now gotten extensive coverage in major WP:RS media, which argues for including it in the article. --Nbauman (talk) 19:52, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Trump International Hotel & Tower Toronto Bankruptcy
Not directly Donald Trump, however, part of the Trump Empire/Hotels. As far as I can tell, Trump International Hotel & Tower Toronto went into Bankruptcy on Tuesday, November 1, 2016. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/trump-tower-goes-bust-canada-214412 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_International_Hotel_and_Tower_%28Toronto%29#Default_by_developer

It notes that Donald Trump may have some liability in the case. Should this be added? Keelec (talk) 02:24, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

unreliable sources
has anybody fact checked this article against actual legal sources? newspapers are known for loseing legal meaning by exagaation and making it interesting and this could affect the quality of the article. Aguyintobooks (talk) 23:48, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

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Orang-utan
The orang-utan case was a breach of contract, not defamation, which was why Trump was claiming $5m.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:44, 22 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I have now shifted this to the right section. If anyone doubts that it was a contract case, please see the following:,, , .--Jack Upland (talk) 03:54, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * And I have now moved it back. To be clear: the question is whether it was a contract case or a defamation case. The answer is: a contract case. All the sources agree. It is not up to Wikipedian barrack-room lawyers to decide it was really a defamation issue. Yes, Trump wasn't going to succeed with a contract case. But that's the case he decided to run. We just document what happened, not what the Wikipedian brains trust of barrack-room lawyers and solipsistic theologians think should have happened, or did happen in their imaginary alternative universe.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:46, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

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See Also in Jane Doe rape case can be removed
There is a See Also reference to Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations but that article has no entry on Jane Doe rape case. So the See Also here can be removed. J mareeswaran (talk) 14:33, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

You guys can't stop, you are obsessed with him.. it is sick... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.171.225.193 (talk) 03:14, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * That`s because rape is a crime.107.217.84.95 (talk) 02:06, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Undue content on rape claims?
The Katie Johnson/Jane Doe rape claim against Trump has just been dropped for the third time. Yet the lead of this article includes "rape", which I believe is an undue mention - sexual misconduct allegations deserves to be in the lead, but not rape. Also, the Rape claim section is extensive but does not include the skepticism of the case reported by The Guardian,[https:// www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/07/donald-trump-sexual-assault-lawsuits-norm-lubow?client=ms-android-h3g-gb] Vox[https:// www.google.co.uk/amp/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13501364/trump-rape-13-year-old-lawsuit-katie-johnson-allegation] and others, who note the involvement of a publicist, Norm Lubow, and how some journalists doubt the claimant is a real person. As this will no doubt raise some debate, I wanted to discuss first rather than being bold. Fences &amp;  Windows  22:51, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you can go ahead and edit.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:53, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

i concur since most of the lawsuits that are within the scope of this article are business related. a proper balance of proportionally representative cases should be mentioned in the lead. Aguyintobooks (talk) 23:52, 28 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I disagree..the more significant issues regarding the 13 year old girl should not be suppressed.107.217.84.95 (talk) 04:05, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Jane Doe
This needs to be included in Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations for obvious and self-evident reasons 152.18.26.72 (talk) 19:46, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This is the talk page for Legal affairs of Donald Trump. Keep discussions about Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations on its talk page.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 20:47, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It was a legal issue and therefore should be included here.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:31, 28 May 2017 (UTC)


 * How did this slippery weasel get the rape charges deleted? Not the numerous improper misconduct accusations against him..the 13 year old girl he raped, beaten, and threatened to have killed if he hasn`t already done it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BD95:45F0:C9DD:5334:87FA:8453 (talk) 19:04, 3 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't think it should have been deleted. It is obviously a legal affair, regardless of its merits.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:10, 3 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree.107.217.84.95 (talk) 04:02, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * See archives of Talk:Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations for exhaustive discussion resulting in consensus to omit (or lack of consensus to include, I don't recall offhand, but the result is the same). I suggest that that article is the place for any challenge. I also suggest that nothing has changed in this area to justify a challenge. The mere fact that a few editors disagree with a consensus is not sufficient reason to rehash it, particularly when it was debated at such length. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  04:37, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I also note that the most recent post to that talk page was oversighted for apparently WP:BLP reasons, and I believe that was about this allegation. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  04:41, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Donald Trump Might Be the 'Client From Hell'
A good source for content currently in the section #Special Counsel investigation


 * Donald Trump Might Be the 'Client From Hell'

Even better would be a section about Trump's relationship to lawyers, which would include why they don't want to work for him. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:30, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Sounds like SPECULATION and isn’t the topic of a legal case. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:27, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Reference 232 should be "Too Shabby," Not "To"
...but I don't know how to edit the references, since the "Edit" URL doesn't show them.

David Lloyd-Jones (talk) 23:10, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

The number of bankruptcies is wrong
Other wikipedia pages have this correct, but not this one. Trump businesses went bankrupt 6 times not four. He got away with claiming only 4 for years, but treating his three early 90s casino bankruptcies as one. That is the exact error this page makes.


 * 1) Trump Taj Mahal (1991),
 * 2) Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino (1992), MISSING FROM PAGE
 * 3) Plaza Hotel (1992),
 * 4) Trump Castle Hotel and Casino (1992),   MISSING FROM PAGE
 * 5) Trump Hotels and Casino Resorts (2004)
 * 6) Trump Entertainment Resorts (2009)

Sources for 6 bankruptcies https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/jun/21/hillary-clinton/yep-donald-trumps-companies-have-declared-bankrupt/

Here's the missing two bankruptcies. https://apnews.com/article/adbb72fafdcc9aed086d95a986402238--108.29.40.129 (talk) 16:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello friend. You provided sources, and they're both high quality. I'd say go ahead and edit this information into the article if you want. Then other editors can polish from there. Don't forget to include your sources by using the visual editor, then clicking the "Cite" button, then click the first tab, paste the URL, and click "Generate". Happy editing. – Novem Linguae (talk) 16:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

FBI search of Mar-a-Lago ‎
Somewhere in this article (I'm not sure where unless we change a section title) there should be a brief mention of this with a link to the main article.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  19:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Anyone can WP:BEBOLD and do it. I may get to it later if nobody beats me to it. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Well, such as it is, I made a first attempt. For many reasons, I'm sure it's inadequate.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  20:26, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I knew the first thing someone would do is change the name from "raid". And as I look at the new section title, I realize just going ahead with the other article's name would have been best. It looks as if so far at least is satisfied with the text and just improved how the references look.—  Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  15:39, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I almost changed "raid" to "search" myself, not sure why I didn't. Not a big deal either way. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:59, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This was a good addition. —  Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  19:54, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Content to move here
Draft:Outline of investigations and court cases involving Donald Trump exists, and I suspect some of it could be moved here and then we can just delete the draft. Too much duplication. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:21, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

New York Attorney General lawsuits
This section is a bit of a mess. It seems to discuss three lawsuits started by Trump: December 2021, January 2022 and November 2022. Towards the end of this section some text (about Trump withdrawing the lawsuit on January 20, 2023) is repeated. This looks wrong, but I don't know which of the lawsuits (all of them??) were actually dropped by Trump. KarlFrei (talk) 13:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Splitting this into two or maybe three sections
This page seems far to large and unwieldy. It would seem to make sense to split it into a page for his bankruptcies, civil lawsuits, and criminal cases/investigations. Nsediter (talk) 21:30, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @Nsediter, This article (Legal affairs of Donald Trump) is already carved into "Lawsuits" and then other types of legal cases, so maybe we could just cut-and-paste all the lawsuits onto List of lawsuits involving Donald Trump.
 * Or must an article called "List..." be in a certain format, and thus can't accept a cut/paste of big blocks of text? I don't know the answer. Tuckerlieberman (talk) 12:31, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Significant updates to lede
See how the lede's six paragraphs (543 words total) each begin:

"According to a 2016 USA Today analysis, Donald Trump and his businesses were involved in 3,500 legal cases...In 2016, Trump was elected as U.S. President...These cases have ranged from legal battles with casino patrons to...Of Trump's involvement in the lawsuits, his lawyer Alan Garten said in 2015 that...The Trump lawsuits have attracted criticism from Trump's opponents, who say that this is not a trait that conservatives should support...Although Trump has said that he "never" settles legal claims, he and his businesses have settled..."

From a visual scan, it's clear that this was written with a focus on 2016, seven years ago. It's so outdated, we should dump it into a section called "Background," maybe even a subsection called "Pre-presidency."

And then, in the lede, these two important sentences are tacked on almost as an afterthought:

"On December 6, 2022, Trump's company The Trump Organization was convicted on 17 criminal charges.

''On March 30, 2023, Trump was indicted on 34 felony counts by a grand jury in Manhattan. He was arraigned on the charges on April 4, 2023 and pleaded not guilty to all counts."''

In addition to those two things, the lede also needs a focus on five more things, please:


 * Trump is being investigated in Georgia for his efforts to overturn that state's 2020 presidential election results. The investigation is led by the Fulton County district attorney Fani Willis. Trump may be charged during the first half of 2023.
 * Trump is being investigated federally for his efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election results (this investigation is separate from the U.S. House investigation, which has ended).
 * Trump is being investigated federally for his handling of classified and national defense-related government documents.
 * On April 25, 2023, an anonymous jury will hear Trump's trial in New York on E. Jean Carroll's claims of defamation and assault.
 * New York attorney general Letitia James has a civil lawsuit against the Trump Organization. Trial is scheduled for October 2, 2023.

It would be great if this article could have a brief summary paragraph listing these currently relevant investigations so we could transclude it into any/all related articles. Tuckerlieberman (talk) 13:03, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * OK, I went ahead and added the 5 investigations to the 2 that were already there. Now the lede mentions 7 investigations total.
 * I still think the >500 words of old stuff from 2015–2016 should mostly be dumped into a "Background" section. No need to start with all that. I'm guessing most readers want 2023 info. I will wait for consensus on that big cut/paste. Tuckerlieberman (talk) 20:27, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Is this the correct place for a table of these cases?
I've been trying to find how many cases Trump is in currently/concurrently and it's a little hard to sort through the article. Would the bottom of this page be the spot to put a listing of them, the type of case and when they started/concluded? -- FancyPaperPants (talk) 02:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I’d appreciate this too as I was looking for just such a summary. I think a list at the bottom is a good idea but it makes two places to change whenever anything happens cde (talk) 20:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @FancyPaperPants, ditto, I came here to say this. A brief inventory would be useful not only in this article but also so we can transclude it to other articles.
 * I wouldn't put it at the bottom. I'd put it in the lede!
 * And I'd put transclusion code around the paragraph so we can plug it into other articles. Any time we update the paragraph here, it'll be self-updating on the other articles. Tuckerlieberman (talk) 12:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @FancyPaperPants, sorry, to clarify: A brief summary could go in the lede and could be transcluded to other articles. A big table obviously needs its own section. Tuckerlieberman (talk) 12:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree. 2601:586:4302:3F0:D1C4:C116:53C0:146B (talk) 16:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Washington Post and Guardian articles: Keeping Track of the Trump Investigations/Case Tracker
The following articles will probably be useful, over time, for Trump-investigation watchers: They seem to be the kind of articles that will be continually updated. —12:05, 2 August 2023 (UTC) — RCraig09 (talk) 12:18, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/us/trump-investigations-charges-indictments.html
 * https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2023/aug/01/trump-indictment-jan-6-jack-smith-biden-us-politics-live-updates