Talk:Pescadores campaign (1885)

Vandalism report
I have written to User:Rama, an administrator familiar with the history of the French navy in the nineteenth century, to report User:Gumuhua for persistent vandalism to this article.

Djwilms (talk) 01:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Pescadores - Penghu and romanization systems
Hi there:

I appreciate ur explanations concerning ur views about pinyin and the use of pescadores instead of penghu.

Sorry to have considered u a french, again my apologies.

"I have used Wade Giles in the articles Keelung Campaign and Pescadores Campaign because they deal with military campaigns fought decades before the invention of pinyin. The Wikipedia guideline on this subject is quite clear:"

Im gonna disagree, my reasons: we use Qing for the Qing dinasty, we name all chinese dinasties using pinyin, which was created, as u said, in the middle of the 20th century (1958), i dont think that ur rule should apply... Again im gonna defend the use of Pinyin only, because I still consider its better to use only one romanization system not to confuse readers. I wont repeat what i wrote about Pinyin being official in Taiwan.

"Wade Giles (Please include for subjects which were notable before the introduction of pinyin, and especially for those which existed before 1910; English references to them will exist using Wade-Giles only, and these are very difficult to look up unless the WG transcriptions are included)."

Err... i think I need to read a bit more... Not sure about what to say (at this moment)

"My impression is that, at present, the Pescadores is still the favoured term. I don't have many reference works with me at present in the office, but I've just checked out the Cambridge History of China, the world's most authoritative English-language history of China."

Dunno if thats the most authoritative... Does that mean google maps and windows live maps r mistaken? Those 2 web based world maps use Penghu (not following the pinyin rules, btw, but Penghu anyway). I still think we should consider the number of entries found in sites like flickr or fotki, or the google search entries...

Now, Im gonna re-make some of the changes I made: It seems u have chosen to let the english translation of "A la memoire des soldats..." Im gonna put that into quotaiton marks. I also added some templates: again, my reasons:

1) U give us ur sources, but all those r french ones, so, I think the template that says that "we need some english sources" applies..

2) I also consider the article one sided because u only give french sources... any chinese source? they might have different views about it. U give us only the winner's point of view, I consider that eurocentrism, bias.

3) Offline sources.. i still think the template concerning the lack of online sources applies.

On the short time, ill just add the quotation marks...

well, im gumuhua, cya


 * Dear User:Gumuhua,


 * I didn't make the Wikipedia rules on the use of pinyin and Wade Giles, I'm merely trying to apply them. Personally, my own preference is for Wade Giles because it's a romanisation system that gets closer to the sound of Chinese than pinyin.  Most Brits who have no knowledge of Chinese or its romanisation systems would naturally pronounce Qing as Kwing, because Q is pronounced kw in English.  Wade Giles, however, has 'Ch'ing', so much closer to the Chinese sound.  But that's neither here nor there.  Hundreds of contributors have thrashed out the policy on use of Wade Giles and pinyin already, and it's up to us simply to follow that policy.


 * Sources: I agree with you that the article appears Eurocentric, but that's not because I have not tried to use all the sources available.  Indeed, for me, part of the fascination of the Sino-French War is comparing the French with the Chinese sources.  If you look at the references for the Pescadores Campaign article, you will find that I have used French, British and Chinese sources.  The Chinese source is Lung Chang's Yueh-nan yu Chung-fa chan-cheng, a 1993 study of the Sino-French War concerned principally with its diplomacy and the career of the Chinese diplomat Zeng Jize.  Lung Chang, a distinguished Taiwanese scholar who died a few years ago, read French fluently, and made use of both Chinese and French documents in his book.  It has been an enormous help to me in writing my own book on the Sino-French War, which is now nearing completion.  The British source is the missionary William Campbell, whom I intend to quote for the attitude of the islanders towards the French during the occupation.  (Please understand that the article is by no means finished at present.  I have lots more to add to it, and if you'll give me a couple of weeks after the Christmas break I hope to get it nearly finished.)


 * Lung Chang and Campbell apart, though, the sources for the Pescadores campaign are (hardly surprisingly) overwhelmingly French. I would love to find something about the campaign in Chinese, but if Lung Chang wasn't able to find anything, I doubt if there's much to find.  When I visited the Pescadores I was told that one particular temple had been looted by the French, who were said to have carried off its carved gates, but this folk memory contrasts so starkly with the main French tradition (Courbet issued strict orders against looting and ensured that they were obeyed) and with the impression gained by the English missionary William Campbell that I find it difficult to believe.  I also heard stories that the Japanese looted temples when they landed at Makung in 1895, and it may be that the French have been wrongly blamed in this particular instance. I will deal with this issue in a paragraph in the article in due course.


 * The only information Lung Chang was able to give on the campaign was the names of the Chinese commanders, which I have included and have duly footnoted. He also mentions that they were later exiled to the frontier province of Heilongjiang for losing the Pescadores, and I'm going to include a sentence on that in the article.  If you or other Taiwanese contributors have more information on the campaign, I would love to hear about it.  It will go straight into my book, not to mention the Wikipedia article.  To me, one of the great attractions of Wikipedia is that it enables this kind of dialogue.  Hence my query if you, or other Taiwanese contributors, knew the Chinese characters for the two villages near Makung mentioned by the French.


 * Lung Chang also has a fascinating paragraph on the impact of the loss of the Pescadores on the attitude of the Qing court to the recently-signed peace with France. The news of their loss came too late to influence the peace protocol agreed between France and China on 4 April 1885, but the Chinese generals in Tonkin (northern Vietnam) were in favour of fighting on, and the Qing court quelled their objections to the peace treaty by arguing that China was likely to lose Taiwan if the war was resumed, as the French capture of the Pescadores cut the Chinese supply line to Taiwan.  Again, I intend to deal with this issue in a new paragraph in the article.


 * I hope I have said enough to convince you that there is no call for attaching templates to this article. Clearly, the fact that I have used such non-French sources as there are absolves the article from the charge of being Eurocentric.  I would be only too happy to be made aware of other sources for the campaign, but I have been working on the Sino-French War now for seven years, and if they existed I think I would have come across them by now.  The Sino-French War is not one of the nineteenth century's better-known wars, and when it comes out (in 2010, God willing) my book will be the first ever serious treatment of it in English.


 * Djwilms (talk) 01:36, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S. I'm not quite sure what you want to do with the quotations from the French memorial inscriptions: there is no need to place the French text in quotation marks because it is already distinguished from its surroundings by being given in italics, and I have already placed quotation marks around my English translations (following the French, in brackets). I notice, and am punctilious about, these little things, as my real-life job is as an academic editor with the Chinese University of Hong Kong.  I spend most of my life writing or editing ...


 * Hi there again: I, again, appreciate ur lengthy response, discussing about Hanyu Pinyin or Wade-Giles is not the point here... Ur explanations are welcomed... It seems I'll have to find some information about Lung Chang (please, send me the name in Chinese characters). I still think that the "online resources needed" template should apply, but, if u have been working on the matter for 7 years and found nothing, well... I dunno what to reply to that, its just that I think it should be added...


 * Sorry, I though I had added the english translations myslef... when I firstly edited-vandalized the article, I think to remember i didnt see any english translation regarding the 2 Jilong-Keelung memorials...


 * Good luck with ur bookGumuhua (talk) 01:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear Gumuhua,
 * Lung Chang is 龍章. See the References section to the article for the Chinese characters for the name of his book.  Somewhere or other I've got a short biography of him, which I'll try to locate and let you have.


 * Here's my English translation of what he says on page 329 of his book about the Pescadores campaign (the second half of a single paragraph in a book 377 pages long):


 * Courbet was impatient with the campaign in Formosa, where the French expeditionary corps found attacking and defending both difficult, and was anxious to seize the Pescadores island group. He therefore summoned Lespès to Chen-hai Bay [Ningbo] to maintain the blockade, while he himself led a flotilla to the Pescadores.  Meanwhile a naval division of eight ships under the command of Rear Admiral Rieunier, sent earlier by the French government,  arrived in the China Seas.  On 28 March Courbet arrived off the Pescadores with five warships.  The islands were defended by the generals Chou Shan-ch’u and Cheng Ying-chieh.   On 29 March the French squadron bombarded the Chinese defences.  French troops landed on P’eng-hu Island on the following day and captured Makung.  According to French sources, French casualties were only 5 dead and 12 wounded.  The officials on the Pescadores put Chinese casualties at over 300 dead and 400 wounded.  Chou Shan-ch’u and his fellow commanders withdrew to defend the Formosan mainland.  However, the mood in Paris at this time was unsettled due to the French reverses at Chen-nan-kuan and Lang Son, and Courbet’s victory in the Pescadores went almost unnoticed.


 * Lung Chang's footnote to this paragraph, most of which deals with events in Zhenhai Bay near Ningbo, contains only one sentence relevant to the Pescadores campaign:


 * On 27 July 1885 the Ch’ing court relieved Chou Shan-ch'u and his colleague of their commands for their unsuccessful defence of the Pescadores, and posted them to Heilungkiang to expiate their offences. The other civil and military officials concerned were also punished (Ch’ing te-tsung shih-lu, chuan 210).


 * I've not yet checked this reference, but I have no reason to doubt that Lung Chang has reported it accurately.


 * Djwilms (talk) 01:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added an external link to the only website I have been able to discover that refers to the Pescadores campaign. The author, Rene Vienet, is a friend of mine from my Taiwan days, and is one of the few people in the world besides myself interested in the Sino-French War.

Pescadores - Penghu and romanization systems
Hi there:

I appreciate ur explanations concerning ur views about pinyin and the use of pescadores instead of penghu.

Sorry to have considered u a french, again my apologies.

"I have used Wade Giles in the articles Keelung Campaign and Pescadores Campaign because they deal with military campaigns fought decades before the invention of pinyin. The Wikipedia guideline on this subject is quite clear:"

Im gonna disagree, my reasons: we use Qing for the Qing dinasty, we name all chinese dinasties using pinyin, which was created, as u said, in the middle of the 20th century (1958), i dont think that ur rule should apply... Again im gonna defend the use of Pinyin only, because I still consider its better to use only one romanization system not to confuse readers. I wont repeat what i wrote about Pinyin being official in Taiwan.

"Wade Giles (Please include for subjects which were notable before the introduction of pinyin, and especially for those which existed before 1910; English references to them will exist using Wade-Giles only, and these are very difficult to look up unless the WG transcriptions are included)."

Err... i think I need to read a bit more... Not sure about what to say (at this moment)

"My impression is that, at present, the Pescadores is still the favoured term. I don't have many reference works with me at present in the office, but I've just checked out the Cambridge History of China, the world's most authoritative English-language history of China."

Dunno if thats the most authoritative... Does that mean google maps and windows live maps r mistaken? Those 2 web based world maps use Penghu (not following the pinyin rules, btw, but Penghu anyway). I still think we should consider the number of entries found in sites like flickr or fotki, or the google search entries...

Now, Im gonna re-make some of the changes I made: It seems u have chosen to let the english translation of "A la memoire des soldats..." Im gonna put that into quotaiton marks. I also added some templates: again, my reasons:

1) U give us ur sources, but all those r french ones, so, I think the template that says that "we need some english sources" applies..

2) I also consider the article one sided because u only give french sources... any chinese source? they might have different views about it. U give us only the winner's point of view, I consider that eurocentrism, bias.

3) Offline sources.. i still think the template concerning the lack of online sources applies.

On the short time, ill just add the quotation marks...

well, im gumuhua, cya —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.43.124.203 (talk) 23:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)