Talk:Peter Jones (missionary)

Mom
http://forsythkitchener.blogspot.com/2007_09_09_archive.html

Mary & Polly
Note that his sister Mary and his sister Polly are the same person. Don't forget this. Wily D 17:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources of interest

 * Talks about his journal and maybe more (it's all kinds of long) Wily D
 * On William Case, but need a stub on that for support and likely talks extensively about Jones
 * His book on converting Ojibwa Wily D
 * Guardianship under Captain Jim discussed at Smith, 68
 * Dr. Peter Edmund Jones is in Smithsonian Photoraph 498-a-1 or 498-a-I ... find out about its publication/taker. Wily D 02:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Native American Authors and Their Communities, Jace Weaver, Wíčazo Ša Review, Vol. 12, No. 1 (Spring, 1997), pp. 47-87, University of Minnesota Press, http://www.jstor.org/stable/1409163


 * 

Elizabeth Jones, birth & death date




 * Random marriage proposal in 1829 on Smith 119, Marriage Request o' 1829 on Smith 122

http://digilib.bu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2144/661/jamesevans00maclrich.txt?sequence=1

Uncertain utility quotes
Anglican clergy among the Mohawks "have for a century past been in the habit of administering that holy ordinance to notorious drunkards, Sabbath breakers, and whoremongers" (1830)(Smith, 97) Roman Catholics - "they neglect to teach them [the Indians] the depravity of the human heart, and the necessity of coming to Christ alone for pardon and mercy: in this was they make the Indians ten times more the children of the devil than they were before." (1828)(Smith, 97)

Fields
Fields comes from a well-to-do family of Lambeth, father owned a candle factory. She saved the Newspaper telling of Weelington's defeat of Napolean from 22June1815 all her life - born 1804. (131) Attended boarding school in Peckham 8 years, studied landscape drawing under E. Bouquet, active in her church teaching sunday school, strongly influenced by her preachers Rowland Hill (132)

Wins over the father in ~month (138), but learns about A. Jones' 2 wifes after Peter Departs, reforbids union. Robert Alder, Methodist Missionary Superintendant has a little word (A/Jones repented, son isn't father), and by December Charlies Fields relents unhappily. 140

Jones had planned to return to England for wedding, but can't. Eliza comes to New York with Egerton instead - daddy unhappy, more arguments w/ Alder, Ryerson and Daughter - relents.

Marry in the home of Francis Hall, as is custom there. Fields thinks weird. Newspapers take attention, mostly against (142) Eliza's private, unhappy about this.

Echo Place
Three clicks northeast of Brantford (probably in Brantford now). Wily D 12:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Books!
Track down this:
 * Translates : Luke into Mohawk; http://www.jstor.org/stable/1409163?seq=8

All others works now incorporated into "Bibliography" section. CJLippert (talk) 16:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * All the source says is "He also rendered St. Luke into Mohawk". I wonder if Victoria College has a copy. Wily D 17:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, as I can't find "Ojebway Spelling Book, Translated. 1828." though I see ample reference to it. I wonder if the Spellings for the Schools in the Chipeway Language currently attached to the front end of Project Gutenberg's EBook of Sketch of Grammar of the Chippeway Languages (Cazenovia: J. F. Fairchild & Son, 1834), by John Summerfield, is this supposed book, as the book attached on the front end does not cite the author, but does give (York: Canada Conference Missionary Society, 1828), and the spelling style is same as that of O zhe pe e kun nun... printed a year later. CJLippert (talk) 15:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/168 This page in his journal recounts his being assigned to write the spelling book. I think it's June 2, 1828. Wily D  23:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems like he didn't dick around. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/175 He showed up at the printers June 19, 1828.  Mr MacKenzie - I'll bet that's William Lyon Mackenzie - how many printers do you think were in York, Upper Canada in 1828? Wily D  02:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you look at this (the "Spelling" portion), there are only 12 printed pages... that's only 3 sheets of paper... really, really short! Now don't laugh at this, on page 8, it says "Words of four syllables accented on the sixth." If this short book is by Jones, I bet in his haste got ningoding ("on the first") and ningod waach ing ("on the sixth") mixed up. (In Ojibwe 1-6, 2-7, and 3-8 are a variation of each other, while 4, 5, 9 and 10 aren't, but all higher counting numbers are variations of these). As I somehow doubt that the Methodist's Canada Conference Missionary Society would have had more than one spelling book printed in Ojibwe, shall we safely assume that the short spelling book attached to the front end of Summerfield's "Grammar" is Jones' "Spelling" and adjust the title accordingly in the article's Bibliography section and provide an external link to Project Gutenberg? CJLippert (talk) 03:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Jones said explicitly he didn't know of any such previous attempt or contemporary attempt, so this is probably right. After all, it was 16 days from William Case recommending he write a spelling book to William Mckenzie typesetting it.Wily D 03:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Careful about this print, see Sommerfeld's writing of the first grammar - http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/397 Wily D  13:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If John Summerfield died in 1836 and was about 20, that means Grammar written in 1834 was written when Summerfield was 18. This could mean Spellings written in 1828 could not have been written by Summerfield (who would have been 12)... so I think this boosts the chances that Spellings was indeed written by Jones. CJLippert (talk) 00:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good eye. I suppose that's why it's helpful to have collaborators.  The Grammar must be something different. Wily D  03:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you go to Project Gutenberg and compare the Spelling and Grammar, though similar, the two have a different feel (mainly because of slightly different orthography between the two). Spelling used by George Copway is much closer to what Jones used than what Summerfield used. CJLippert (talk) 04:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Methodism review
I'm certainly no expert in Methodism; hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will also review. I have the following questions and concerns:
 * 1) The "Conversion" section says "ones attended a camp-meeting of the Methodist Episcopal Church in Ancaster Township." The link goes to an article about a Methodist denomination in the United States.  The Ancaster Township link goes to a location in Canada.  This appears to be a discrepancy.  What does the source say specifically?  (We could have the wrong Wikipedia link, or the denomination article could be deficient - looking at Methodism the second is quite likely.)
 * Err, my impression is that the early goings of Methodism in Canada were an extension of the American church. Doesn't say in the article, but I think Sacred Feathers makes mention of when a seperate church is founded in British North America, I think it's ~1825 ... I also suspect it's the second, but I'll try and find the relevent part in my sources. Wily D  15:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) Exhorter should probably be an article; it is used often enough in Wikipedia. You use it in the "Conversion" section in quotes, to me indicating a word that you don't expect the reader to know the meaning of - yet you don't give the reader any meaning or a link.  The Methodist Episcopal Church article gives some help.  The term is also used in other denominations; I see Baptist and more modern groups.
 * 2) The "Conversion" section contains this link congregation in the sentence "Reverend Alvin Torry set up a congregation centered around Jones and Chief Thomas Davis (Tehowagherengaraghkwen) composed entirely of Indian members." A congregational church has a particular form of organization and government - one not set up and run by a minister. This link appears dubious; especially if we are still referring to a Methodist Episcopal group, which would definitely not be congregational.  The remainder of the article makes me quite certain that the link is wrong.
 * Actually, is this wrong? It was set up, but not run by a minister - neither Thomas Davis nor Peter Jones were ministers at this point.  The source just says a "congregation", but see congregation; no other obvious target exists. Wily D  12:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The link (which does not exist) that you are looking for is to the meaning of the first bullet at congregation. A generic congregational church has a church goverment/denominational system (Congregationalist polity) in which each church is independent and autonomously runs its own affairs, there is no episcopate (bishops).  The Congregational church link is a movement of congregational churches. It is the "Wesleyan politics" section that most clearly convinces me that you don't actually mean a congregational church in either the generic or specific sense; though the Methodist Episcopal history was a strong warning sign; the episcopacy and congregational church goverment are incompatible.  In Canada, the methodist and congregational churches merged to form the United Church of Canada in 1925, which is a bit after Peter Jones had died.  GRBerry 14:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, okay. I suppose I'll just delink it for now. Wily D  14:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) The "Fractured Community" section contains a wiktionary link prostelyzing . There is no such wiktionary page.  I'm not convinced this needs to be linked. GRBerry 15:09, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Err, this point, at least, is a typo. I've found proselytize which is not.  Perhaps it's not needed, but it strikes me as a three dollar word, which might at least benefit from this.  Wily D  15:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Context
Still need:
 * Muncey Mission (redirected for now)
 * William Case (missionary)
 * George Ryerson
 * Alvin Torry
 * Matilda Jones
 * Aborigines' Protection Society [[Image:Yes check.svg|11px]]
 * Saugeen tract [[Image:Yes check.svg|11px]]
 * Samuel Jarvis [[Image:Yes check.svg|11px]]
 * Echo Place (Shitty, needs paper book for writing)

Peer Review
Just calling attention to the Peer Review. Wily D 14:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

En dashes
Required for all date ranges: please see WP:DASH. Tony  (talk)  09:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

GA
Very nice. This could be a FA without too much work, I'd expect. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 00:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistent years
Hey, after I added in a few more books written by Peter Jones under the "Bibliography" and took a look at the article, I have noticed the article says "Matthew" was translated in 1832 but the various resources out there on the 'net says 1829. I don't know if the 1832 version is a revised version of the 1829 or if the 1829 version didn't get published until 1832, but this inconsistency is apt to be noticed. While at it, all the dates should be verified to ensure the article don't contradict itself. CJLippert (talk) 20:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sacred Feathers (page 129) refers to Matthew being published while Peter's in England for the first time, which puts the publishing in 1831 or 1832. I think the translation was completed before this.  "Finished translating in '29, finally printed in '32" is the most sensible resolution of this I can see. Wily D  20:49, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Also says the finished translating John in '31, the second such translation the brothers did, after Matthew. So yes, probably translated in '29, printed in '32. Wily D  20:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds logical, but I found the smoking gun. It seems that in 1829 a partial translation of Matthew was published, while a full translation of Matthew came out in 1832. I've added in the partial translation into the "Bibliography" section. I just finished adding in the title's Fiero spelling and the translation of the title... which is quite different from the English sub-title that was provided. There seems to have been other partial translation of various Bible sections. I wonder if this was done in such a way to raise funds to continue with the remainder of the translations? CJLippert (talk) 16:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * He did a lot of fund raising with speaking tours, but I doubt publishing bits of the bible in Ojibwe made any money. Maybe it made them look better, so they could make stronger claims about their work.  Maybe they were just anxious to get stuff out as fast as they could. I would guess more like that latter - in Peter's case, it was clear that preaching to the Ojibwa had to be done in Ojibwe to be effective - even a few scraps of writings would be enormously valuable. Wily D  16:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Journal entries of interest

 * http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/213 ← Nomination as chief, Jan 1, 1829.
 * http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/374 ← On printing of Matthew in York
 * http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/361 ← On meeting King William
 * http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/344 ← On portrait by Matilda Jones
 * http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/315 ← Begin first trip to England
 * http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/413 Arrives England a second time, meets Aboriginies Protection Society

1
* Review: [untitled] * Barbara Graymont * Reviewed work(s): Sacred Feathers: The Reverend Peter Jones (Kahkewaquonaby) & the Mississauga Indians by Donald B. Smith * The Journal of American History, Vol. 75, No. 3 (Dec., 1988), pp. 943-943 * Publisher: Organization of American Historians * Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1901617

2
* Review: [untitled] * Henry Warner Bowden * Reviewed work(s): Sacred Feathers: The Reverend Peter Jones (Kahkewaquonaby) and the Mississauga Indians by Donald B. Smith * The Western Historical Quarterly, Vol. 20, No. 1 (Feb., 1989), pp. 83-84 * Publisher: Western Historical Quarterly, Utah State University on behalf of the The Western History Association * Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/968504

3
* Review: [untitled] * Peter N. Peregrine * Reviewed work(s): Sacred Feathers: The Reverend Peter Jones (Kahkewaquonaby) and the Mississauga Indians by Donald B. Smith * Ethnohistory, Vol. 36, No. 3 (Summer, 1989), pp. 320-321 * Publisher: Duke University Press * Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/482683

4
* Review: [untitled] * Rebecca Kugel * Reviewed work(s): Sacred Feathers: The Reverend Peter Jones (Kahkewaquonaby) and the Mississauga Indians by Donald B. Smith * American Indian Quarterly, Vol. 14, No. 1 (Winter, 1990), pp. 57-59 * Publisher: University of Nebraska Press * Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1185010

5
* Review: [untitled] * E. Palmer Patterson * Reviewed work(s): Sacred Feathers: The Reverend Peter Jones (Kahkewaquonaby) and the Mississauga Indians by Donald B. Smith * The American Historical Review, Vol. 94, No. 4 (Oct., 1989), pp. 1204-1205 * Publisher: American Historical Association * Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1906794

??
Section Credit mission, last para:
 * Colborne looked far more favourably on the Methodists, but still hoped to replace the influence of American Methodists with British Wesleyans.

What's the difference? Needs clarification, maybe. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 12:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The religious difference? I have no idea, and I'm pretty sure Colborne couldn't give a flying fart.  It's the American vs. British that had the bee in his bonnet. Wily D  12:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

"Indian" inappropriate
In Canada the term "Indian" to refer to people of Aboriginal origin is frequently seen as inappropriate and / or derrogatory. Pursuantly I have modified the entry, replacing the word "indian" with more neutral terms such as "native" or "aboriginal person" except where referencing what others would have, at that time, called an aboriginal person where I have inserted "quotation marks" around the word "Indian". 64.201.173.189 (talk) 13:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC) First Nation: A term that came into common usage in the 1970s to replace the word “Indian,” which some people found offensive. Although the term First Nation is widely used, no legal definition of it exists. Among its uses, the term “First Nations peoples” refers to the Indian peoples in Canada, both Status and non-Status. Some Indian peoples have also adopted the term “First Nation” to replace the word “band” in the name of their community. Indian: Indian peoples are one of three groups of people recognized as Aboriginal in the Constitution Act, 1982. It specifies that Aboriginal people in Canada consist of Indians, Inuit and Métis. Indians in Canada are often referred to as: Status Indians, non-Status Indians and Treaty Indians.
 * First of all, you've done this in direct quotes like book titles. Secondly, in Canada, Indians are registered members of Indian Bands as administered through the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs under the authority of the Indian Act.  Indian is the correct and usual term in Canadian English.  Indians + Metis + Inuit = First Nations.  I'm not aware of any general agreement on "Native", but it's not in much use, no. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WilyD (talk • contribs) 13:58, 27 March 2009
 * Just a quick comment, WilyD--the term "First Nations" does not include Metis and Inuit. First Nations + Metis + Inuit = Aboriginal peoples of Canada. - 209.139.232.70 (talk) 16:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The Indian Department seems to more or less agree with you, though they note it isn't well defined.
 * So I think you're about right in that usage. We should stick to Indian here, I think, though (especially for direct quotes, book titles, Jones' self-identification & whatnot. Wily D  16:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree--I never made that initial comment/edit, I was just reading the page and noticed what you wrote. - 209.139.232.70 (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

re. Peter Jones' father
article states that Peter Jones' father was Augustus Jones, an American born Welsh immigrant. can't be. can't be born in America and be a Welsh immigrant at the same time. (Omdhjr (talk) 19:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC))
 * You're right, of course. His parents were born in Wales, but he himself in America. Wily D  19:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Offensive
I find this article incredibly offensive in a number of ways. Firstly, it's blatantly Euro-centric and pro-Christian and seems to glorify the cultural genocide of Native American peoples.

I think this article needs a major re-write to remove this bias.

-Jeff —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drosera99 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Without any justification of that statement, it's hard to address. Obviously a lot of us will inherently make a positive judgement of Jones' for his role in preventing the complete annihilation of Mississaugas, especially those of Credit (now New Credit).  I'm not sure the article says this, it merely allows you to make what seems like a natural conclusion. Wily D  13:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Being from and currently residing in the Saugeen First Nation, I agree there is a certain amount of offense to be taken with the sell-out, Peter Jones. Any Indian who chooses the European ways and religions that destroyed our culture, language, and brought us such wonderful institutions as the residential schools could be perceived as such. Jones was at best, a self-serving, weak hearted coward who would rather seek out the comforts of Eurpoean living and women than to get his hands, and apparently his spirit, dirty by being amongst his own people, helping them from their side of the fence. All that being said, it really is neither here nor there with regards to an "encyclopedic" look at his life. If you're offended by the wikipedia site, you're going to be even more offended by the book about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.209.249.156 (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggested image
Dcoetzee 04:14, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Clean up category
I still don't understand the objection to either of my versions compared to this version. All three versions are identical, with the exception that neither of mine is in a clean up category and the other version is in a clean up category. Featured articles should not be in clean up categories. I fail to see why a genuine good faith attempt to maintain the article should be labeled as vandalism or damage. DrKiernan (talk) 10:49, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

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Moderner perspectives
Okay, some links to pssibly get towards a more critical view ?
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * Via his son
 * 
 * 


 * These may be of aid to anyone (including me) hoping to update the article with newer sources. But while some are perhaps more critical of of the British or Upper Canadian government/settlers, I really can't seem to find anything critical of Peter to support the idea the IP is trying to present.  I'll look a bit more.  Wily D  19:08, 10 February 2021 (UTC)