Talk:Peter O'Toole/Archive 1

Long, short, and tall
You've left out "The Long and the Short and the Tall", a breakthrough for O'Toole's stage career, and his greatest film, Nick Ray's "The Savage Innocents". It's true he took his name off the credits of the latter becauese the producers insisted on dubbing his part, but he never acted in a film that good again. James Leahy, 13 July 2004.

I changed British to  British as the terms are not equivalent - but is "British" accurate? Wouldn't it be better just to leave it as Irish? -- sannse 17:11 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I dunno. His Irish accent is terrible. Mintguy

British is wrong. I don't know who keeps changing it but he is an Irish actor. The fact that worked primarily in Britain can be explained in the article, but where we state nationality we do not say anything other than what he was, which is Irish. O'Toole once said being called British was one of the worst insults he ever received. He is no more English than Chancellor Gordon Brown is English or Billy Connolly is English or Joan Collins is American. Simply being born, growing up and working in a place does not make you 'of that country'. Re his accent, he blames RADA for in his words "giving me a toffee-nosed Tory accent". FearÉIREANN 18:17 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm...."simply being born, growing up and working in a place does not make you 'of that country' ". What precisely DOES "make you of that country"? Millbanks 12:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

A bit sad that being called British is such an insult. After all, his mother was British.Bill Tegner 15:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Would an Irish American be insulted at being called American? Millbanks 09:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Gordon Brown was born in Scotland of Scottish parents. Why should anyone claim he was English? He's very keen on being British, though.Bill Tegner 23:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That's what I thought, thanks for fixing it -- sannse 18:43 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I always think of him as Irish. He received the BAFTA for Best British Actor for Lawrence of Arabia. I believe that he only lived in Ireland till he was about 7. Does he have dual nationality? Mintguy


 * Not that I know of. Britain has a habit of claiming successful Irish people as being British. U2 regularly wins 'best British band' awards, Ronan Keating 'best British vocalist' (???) awards, etc. Irish people just laugh at it all. FearÉIREANN 20:54 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I always think of him as Irish, mainly because of the drinking. Deb 20:41 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * If he was born in Leeds and his mother was scottish, isn't he automatically a British citizen? Arniep 21:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

If he was really born and brought up in Britain, as the article suggests, then he is British not Irish. Saying he is Irish but born and brought up in Britain is ridiculous, you can't have it both ways. JW 22:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

O'Toole's stage career is very poorly served by this article. I shall add some stuff when I get the chance. Jmc29

Okay, as a family member, I have updated this page and made it accurate, I have also added to the stage career info and edited out the Brit stuff - PETE IS NOT BRITISH AND HAS NEVER CARRIED A BRITISH PASSPORT, HE HAS HELD AN IRISH PASSPORT SINCE 1959 - now please leave this page alone and stop trying to claim him for your underachieving country. As for the argument about where is Connemara, he was born, he thinks Letterfrack. Anyway, I have left this open by allowing for the Kerry, Dublin and Leeds theories which I think is the fairest way. Because of the fact that home births are now rare, the Irish state now regards your place of birth as the place where your mother resided at the time of your birth (otherwise only towns with maternity hospitals would be birthplaces!) and Constance O'Toole was resident in Galway in September 1932.

OK, so the Brits (or is it the English?) are trying to claim him for their "underachieving country". But it was the Sunday Independent, an Irish newspaper, which reported O'Toole's English birthplace earlier this year. Bill Tegner 15:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if "Pete" "was never a British citizen", even though it seems he was born in Leeds, presumably you're telling us that until he got his Irish passport in 1959 he was technically stateless. I'm told that when he played TE Lawrence, he said he was "an Irishman playing an Irishman". Lawrence was the Welsh born son of an Anglo-Irish baronet, and is described as being "of mixed English and Scottish ancestry". Oh dear, isn't life complicated? Does this sort of thing really matter?Bill Tegner 23:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

If he's not British, why did he do National Service in Britain?

Chris de Burgh
If you want a breather and an interesting comparator after reading some of the above, look at the Chris de Burgh article and discussion. For reasons best known to themselves (but I think I can guess why), the Oirish brigade are as keen to off-load Mr de Burgh as they are to claim Mr O'Toole Millbanks (talk) 22:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't Peter O'Toole Gay?
Wasn't Peter O'Toole Gay?
 * Not that I've ever heard or read about. And he's still very much alive.  JackofOz 01:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps thinking of Lawrence of Arabia. Markyour words 01:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Consistency
The text is unequivocal in stating that O'Toole was born in Leeds, UK. But the info box gives his birthplace as Commemara. One or other needs to be revised. Does anyone have definitive info in this regard? Also, Connemara is a rather nebulous locale to use when giving a person's birthplace. In the UK, it's rather like saying someone was born in the West Country.Billyblunt 12:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The index to the English birth registers for July-Sept 1932, for the Leeds North registration district, includes: O'Toole, Peter J. and gives the mother's maiden name as Ferguson. The index is a public document which anyone can access. The birth certificate reference is Volume 9b page 307. I assume this is him and that the J is for James (= Seamus). If his mother's maiden name matches, I think that would clinch it. Bluewave 14:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's fairly clear that he was born in Leeds, but someone's desperate to state that he was born in Connemara, I'm not sure why. There seemed to be a compromise to the effect that his place of birth was "disputed" as it most certainly is, but there seem to be attempts even to deny that now. Sad. Bill Tegner 22:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Daily Show Appearance, 11 Jan 2007
O'Toole was asked who he most enjoyed working with, and he said that Katharine Hepburn was the top of the list. (my phrase, not his.) Is there someway to indicate this, perhaps through changing up pictures to show the two in the same scene? ThuranX 04:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Iconic
Someone keeps repeatedly inserting the word iconic in the description of O'Toole's performances, but without giving an edit summary or an explanation. What exactly does that word mean? Is it really appropriate for a performance in the film Venus which has only just come out in 2006? In my view, it is an over-used word which has virtually lost all meaning, especially in this context. Any comments? Orbicle 00:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I do agree, and I edited it up a bit myself. I did so before reading your entry, however. I suppose we think alike. LonesomeCowboyBill 11:21, 18 February 2007 (EST)

British Citizen?
Since O'Toole was born in England, of a British mother and did British National Service, it seems odd that it is stated that he has never been a British citizen. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bill Tegner (talk • contribs) 21:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
 * I think that being born in England with one British parent would have been adequate to claim British citizenship in 1932. However, I presume that neither O'Toole's parents, nor O'Toole himself, ever wished him to be British, so never claimed citizenship. I don't think that being born in Britain has ever enforced British citizenship for those who don't want it. I'm not sure about National Service: I assume that it was a requirement for those born in Britain and resident in Britain at a certain age, and not specifically linked to nationality. Spike Milligan, for example, famously served in the British army but was refused British citizenship. Bluewave 08:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I know a man who was born in Britain to Irish parents. He grew up in England but now lives in Ireland. I asked him whether he was a British citizen or an Irish one and he said he didn't know, because he'd never had a passport. Apart from a passport, how many people have a piece of paper saying that thy're a citizen of a specific country? O'Toole never had to claim British citizenship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.104.71.161 (talk) 08:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

British Citizen?
I'm not sure how you "claim" British citizenship. The whole issue is very complicated, but being born in 1932 in England with a British mother would make you a British citizen de facto and de jure. As the son of a bona fide Irishman O'Toole had every right to claim Irish citizenship, and this he did. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bill Tegner (talk • contribs) 09:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

Knights
Sir Terry Wogan and Sir Anthony O'Reilly, both of whom Irish born, bred and educated (unlike Peter O'Toole) are British knights, and not merely honorary ones. That's because they both became Briish citizens. To the best of my knowledge they did not renounce their Irish citizenship, and they both remain unmistakeably Irish.

- A KBE can be given to anyone. (For instance, one was given to Nicolae Ceausescu in the 1970s :) ) If they aren't Commonwealth citizens, it's an honorary KBE (like Bob Geldof) and they can't call themselves "Sir" (though in the case of Geldof, the Sun will do it for them. "Sir Nicolae" never caught on). But some Irish citizens born before 1949 are entitled to a British passport, and if they have one, they can call themselves 'Sir' (like Sir Terry Wogan). Here's the footnote from Sir Anthony O'Reilly's article: "As a result of the 1948 Act, Irish citizens (citizens of the Republic of Ireland) no longer had British subject status from 1 January 1949 if they did not acquire citizenship of the UK & Colonies or that of another Commonwealth country, notwithstanding that the Irish Free State did not cease to be one of His Majesty's dominions until 18 April 1949. However, section 2 of the Act allowed certain Irish citizens who were British subjects before 1949 to apply at any time to the Secretary of State to remain British subjects. Applications had to be based on: previous Crown service under the United Kingdom government; possession of a British passport; or associations by way of descent, residence or otherwise with the United Kingdom or any Crown colony, protectorate, UK mandated territory or UK trust territory." So it is possible for those people to retain dual citizenship.

I have deleted the bit which says that as an Irish citizen O'Toole is not eligible for a knighthood. As someone who has a British birth cerificate and a British mother, he is British de facto and de jure, whether he likes it or not, so he is eligible. In any event even if he was born in Ireland he would still be eligible, but would have to claim British citizenship first, which he would be granted on two counts, first because he was born before 1949, and second because his mother was British. Millbanks (talk) 21:30, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Place of birth and nationality
The stuff about his place of birth and nationality has now been removed as too contentious. Surely an encyclopedia should be able to do better than that. Let me test the water, by stating what I believe to be facts, before embarking on any edits. Other views?
 * O'Toole calls himself Irish; his father was Irish; O'Toole has an Irish passport. Presumably the "nationality" section in the passport says "Irish". Thus I believe his nationality can be stated as Irish.
 * Sources differ about his place of birth. However, as I noted somewhere above, the index to the English birth registers for July-Sept 1932, for the Leeds North registration district, includes: O'Toole, Peter J. and gives the mother's maiden name as Ferguson. The index is a public document which anyone can access. The birth certificate reference is Volume 9b page 307. This is a verifiable source and makes it pretty clear that he was born in Leeds.

PS The birth registration has not just been checked by me: an article in the Irish Independent earlier this year said the same thing. Bluewave 16:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems pretty clear that he was born in Leeds, but some poster is desperate to state that he was born in Connemara, and if that makes him happy, well, why bother to change it? Peter O'Toole is a fine actor who decided to change his second name to Seamus and become an Irish citizen. I really can't see that where he was born makes much difference to anything.Bill Tegner 18:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)--Bill Tegner 18:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I've just checked some other sites. The Wikipedia entry for Leeds says that Peter comes from there. He's also included in a list of famous people from Leeds. The entries for Connemara, Clifden and Galway don't mention him at all.Bill Tegner 08:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Those cannot be used to verify anything. We need independent external references.  If it really doesn't matter whether anything Wikipedia says is factual, or has a reputable external citation, we may as well say he was born in Zanzibar or the South Pole, in 1673 BC.  Of course it matters that we get these sorts of details right, otherwise what's the point of this whole project?  We're not here to appease people with particular agendas or points of view.   JackofOz 09:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

See above. There is verifiable evidence in the (Sunday) Irish Independent. My only point (rather a snide one, sorry) is that whoever's pushing the "never mind the birth registration, O'Toole was born in Ireland" agenda, might care to look elsewhere. For all I know he's been at work on the Leeds sites already.Bill Tegner 15:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yesterday's Irish Times has an interesting piece featuring an interview of Peter O'Toole by Kate Holmquist. I quote: "Official biographies say that O'Toole was born in Clifden, Co Galway. 'No, darling. This is one of the great myths...It depends which document you read'. O'Toole has two birth certificates..." Curiouser and curiouser.Bill Tegner 19:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)--Bill Tegner 19:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear, it's been changed again. But just for the record, Peter James O'Toole, latterly Peter Seamus O'Toole, was born in Leeds. It no longer seems possible to change the main article, but it is wrong. How sad that someone feels the need to perpetuate an inaccuracy.Bill Tegner 22:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

It's been corrected. Many thanks to whoever did it. Bill Tegner 21:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There's a new suggestion (and edit) by user:Vintagekits that O'Toole was born in Galway, but that he also got a birth certificate when the family moved to England. The civil registration process in England doesn't work like that: a child born in England has to be registered in the district of their birth. A child of British nationality, born overseas, has their birth registered through a different process and would not appear in the indexes for an English city like Leeds. It would be illegal for a family to have a child in Ireland, then move to England and register an English birth. If this was indeed what the O'Toole's did, it would warrant a significant section in the article. However, I don't think there is any evidence. Bluewave 08:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Do we give any credence at all to what O'Toole himself wrote in his autobiography? This is what is referenced (currently) in the Early Life section.  Monkeyzpop 09:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Other sources (eg the British civil registration records and the article in the Irish Independent) disagree with his autobiography. I suggest that this article should reflect that inconsistency between the sources and make it clear that there is some doubt about his place of birth. Bluewave 09:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * But that's exactly what the article does now -- state that there is an inconsistency among sources and that there is doubt, even on O'Toole's part, as to his place of birth. Is there a further problem with what the article says?Monkeyzpop 18:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I was commenting on the fact that user:Vintagekits had added "birthplace = Connemara, County Galway, Ireland" and that the rationale for this was "his oroiginal DOB is in Galway - its resonable to assume he also got a bc when they faimly move to england)" [sic]. I don't think this is a reasonable assumption for the reasons stated above, and think that stating a definitive birthplace is misleading, even in the summary box, even if the main text contradicts it. Bluewave 20:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

In today's Sunday Independent Barry Egan describes Peter O'Toole as an "Irish actor". When he asks O'Toole about his place of birth, he roars with laughter and replies, "it depends which paper you read" Millbanks (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Anyone can get a copy of the Birth Certificate for £7, it will give the place of birth. The BMD Index gives the place of registration.  Though it seems unlikely that someone would be born in Ireland then registered shortly afterwards in England.  --194.247.44.96 (talk) 22:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Photograph
Can we find a more flattering photograph of him? The one currently being used is sort of awful and goofy. For the time being, I've replaced it with the image from lower in the article of him in his famous Lawrence of Arabia role. --Lendorien 16:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've reverted. WP:FUC states that we cannot use a copyrighted image when a free one is available. Borisblue 15:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Then I suggest we pull the image entirely. It looks awful, makes him look awful and it seems insulting to use it for those reasons. Heaven knows that if I had a wikipedia page with my image on it, I wouldn't want people to use one that looked like that. --Lendorien 17:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I would keep it- it at least shows what he looks like at present, and thus has encyclopedic value. Borisblue 04:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * One thing we could do is contact him or his PR people or whoever and ask if they're willing to release a better photograph of him under a Wikipedia-compatible license. It's important to phrase it right so they release it under the right license, though (just saying that we can use it is not enough).  See Example requests for permission for examples.  Anyway, it might not work, but it's worth a shot...  I'm sure that, like anyone else, he'd rather have good pictures of him out there than bad ones. --Aquillion 23:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to add my agreement in the need for a better photograph, it is shockingly poor. Ryoutou 22:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a c for circa for his birth place then Connemara written afterwards

The usual
I was born in England and lived there but i now live in Ireland. I am writing this because as an English person i would consider Peter Irish due to his beliefs. He even wears green socks for Irish luck (just mentioning that).89.124.89.62 23:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

What beliefs? Bill Tegner 21:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

i was only joking, i had a bet on that you would write back to this comment, i won 50 euro, thanks. And i am irish + i dont care where peter is from

Version 0.7
Peter O'Toole is certainly an important actor, but the article at present still needs a lot of work. Please can you renominate when it's had some more content and/or refs? The career section is (IMHO) the most important, but it needs a lot more content. In terms of style, much of it needs proper formatting (e.g., refs are mentioned in text, not cited), the lead is too short and the trivia section too long. Thanks! Walkerma 04:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

"Irish Yorkshireman"
would this term be a good compromise in regards to the long on-going debate? he is listed on the article at List of Yorkshire people--SalvoCalcio 06:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Peter O'Toole: "I'm Irish"
"Oh, hell," he said. "Let's all just say what we want and get arrested. I'm Irish. That means I'm Catholic. But, truth is, now I'm a retired Christian." Source: http://www.nypost.com/seven/03212008/gossip/cindy/veteran_says_todays_actors_arent_trained_102852.htm?page=0 Dunlavin Green (talk) 17:52, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That's odd. Bill Clinton says, "I'm Irish", and he's a Baptist. Millbanks (talk) 21:43, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

PS If Peter O'Toole is British because he was, reputedly, born in Britain, why aren't people rushing to claim Jerry Springer, who was in fact born in Britain, as British? Dunlavin Green (talk) 17:54, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably because Mr Springer wasn't brought up and educated in Britain, doesn't speak with an English accent, doesn't live in London, and doesn't follow cricket, rugby and Sunderland AFC. For all I know, he probably isn't a Shakespeare fan either. Millbanks (talk) 21:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC) And I doubt if Mr Springer sent his son to Harrow School.

What on earth has accent and sport got to do with anything? Lord Henry Mountcharles is Irish. He calls himself Irish. He was born in Ireland. He has an English Oxbridge accent, follows cricket and lived much of his life in England. Is he English according to your odd concept of Irishness and Englishness?


 * Look, I'm trying to answer the question as to why people might try to "claim" Mr O'Toole as British, as opposed to Mr Springer. It is not my "odd concept". In reality Mr O'Toole is both British (by birth certificate and through his mother) and Irish (by citizenship and passport). Personally I'm not very interested in where he was born. I have met a lot of people who claim, with varying degrees of validity, to be of a nationality not immediately apparent. Well, if that makes them happier, all well and good. But Peter O'Toole should be judged on his acting ability, not his birthplace or passport. Millbanks (talk) 13:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Sean MacBride spoke with a French accent. Did that mean he was French?


 * Interesting one. He was born and bred in France, so he presumably he had dual citizenship. But both his parents were Irish (not just one) and he was certainly an Irish citizen, lived in Ireland and participated to a high degree in Irish affairs. So it's hard to argue he wasn't Irish, isn't it? Millbanks (talk) 13:11, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

My first cousin was born in London, but lives in Washington, speaks with an American accent and follows American football. Does that mean he is American?


 * I don't know. Is he? Millbanks (talk) 13:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Bertie Ahern, the former Irish prime minister, follows Manchester United. Does that make him English?


 * No. Millbanks (talk) 13:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

My grand=aunt was born in Ireland but lived in Scotland, spoke with a Scottish accent, was interested in all things Scottish and died and was buried in Scotland. Is she by your definition Scottish? Her brother was born in Ireland, lived in Australia, developed an Australian accent, spent 80% of his life in Australia, died and was buried there. He still regarded himself as Irish. According to your odd perspective, he would be defined as Australian (with a Scottish sister, an American brother, an Irish sister and a French brother, given where his siblings lived).


 * I lived in Australia for some years. Some people in your great uncle's position considered themselves Australian, others did not. (Not sure what my "odd perspective is"). I knew one woman of ninety who had been in Australia since 1925, and spoke broad Aussie. She had never returned home to England, but remained a British citizen. She considered herself English, not Australian. But others discarded their English (or British) persona to the extent of supporting Australia against England in the rugby world cup (though probably they would have supported England against other teams). (Not sure if Mr O'Toole would).Millbanks (talk) 13:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Peter has always defined himself has Irish. He cannot prove where exactly he was born but believes it was Ireland. He spent much of his life living part or all of the year living in Ireland. He now lives in London, as do hundreds of thousands of Irish people. He speaks with a British accent. So do millions of others who aren't British. He follows British sports. So do 80% of Irish people.


 * I'm not sure quite what you mean by "a British accent", but who are the millions of non-British people who speak with one?Millbanks (talk) 16:23, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The standard rule in defining people is establishing where they were born, and whether they were born there with no links or because part or all of their family was based there or came from there. If they are unclear where exactly they were from, one goes by how they define themselves. O'Toole in fifty years of media interviews defined himself as Irish, once interrupting an interviewer on the BBC who called him British to say "no, Irish".

BTW one way to cause Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother to lose her temper was to call her "English". She may have married an Englishman, spent most of her life in England etc but would go into a fury if called English, insisting "I was born Scottish, am Scottish and will die Scottish." FearÉIREANN \(caint) 01:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It's interesting that you say that the Queen Mother's husband was English. I'm not sure if he had any English blood in him at all. OK, probably a little, but less than the Queen Mother. Millbanks (talk) 16:23, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

PS I've just checked. The Queen Mother's mother was English. And the Queen Mother herself, like Mr O'Toole, had a disputed birthplace. Millbanks (talk) 13:26, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The issue of nationality is certainly a great deal more complex than simply determining where someone was born. Paddy Ashdown isn't Indian, and neither was Spike Milligan. If someone is born in England, how do you determine whether they are "English" or "British". There is no legal definition of "English". The "nations" within the British Isles are more to do with people's cultural affiliations than with any absolute test. If O'Toole thinks he's Irish and says he's Irish, then there's a pretty strong case for calling him Irish (even if he was born in Leeds which, under English law, he was, because there is a birth certificate to prove it). Bluewave (talk) 11:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

On reflection, the other alternative is to take a strict legalistic approach (as would happen if Mr O'Toole was ever asked to prove his nationality). If he genuinely has 2 birth certificates, I believe the situation would be as follows. His British birth certificate is taken as proof that he was born in Leeds. Someone born to a British mother in Britain automatically acquires the nationality of "British citizen". Likewise, the Irish authorites would accept the Irish birth certificate as proof that he was born in Ireland. I believe that, at the time he was born, being born in Eire conferred automatic Irish nationality. Therefore, legally he must be of dual Irish and British nationality. So I think Wikipedia could take the strict legal view that he is of dual nationality. Even so, I would still argue for referring to him as Irish, seeing as he is very clear about this. Bluewave (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't think that he had an Irish birth certificate. He would have been granted Irish citizenship because his father was Irish. If he's happier calling himself Irish, fair enough. But why the anti-British element? His mother was British, he was (?)born and bred in Britain, he lives there, likes cricket, soccer, rugby and Shakespeare, and sends his son to Harrow. Hardly the actions of a man who claims to dislike Britain. Millbanks (talk) 07:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The present version of the article says that he has 2 birth certificates (or it least it says that he claims to have 2). However, I cannot see that it is possible for someone to have both an Irish and English birth certificate, without one of them having been obtained fraudulently.Bluewave (talk) 09:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Look, Terry Wogan and Edna O'Brien were both born and bred in Ireland. They've both lived in/near London for many years. Neither has to go around telling people that they're Irish. Peter O'Toole and Shane MacGowan do. I wonder why? Ausseagull (talk) 07:31, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It isn't "anti-British" to claim an Irishman as an Irishman, Millbanks. You'll notice on English wiki there is a lot of old Irish writers claimed as British or Anglo-Irish yet on French, Spanish, Italian, German wiki the same writers are simply called Irish. The Irish diaspora is like the Italian diaspora; our people are very rooted in their cultural heritage. Peter O'Toole is publicly very Irish in his expression of cultural identity so there should be no dispute about who he is; an Irishman born and reared in England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.77.232 (talk) 12:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * So "your people" are "very rooted in their cultural heritage" are they? How nice. Does that go for the British as well? If so since O'Toole has a British mother and was born and bred in Britain, he must be pretty rooted in that, too. Actually he is. As has been pointed out, he lives in London, supports Sunderland, loves Shakespeare, cricket and rugby and sent his son to Harrow. Also look at the discussion on Chris de Burgh. The Oirish brigade aren't exactly rushing to claim him. I wonder why not? Poshseagull (talk) 08:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible for a person to legitimately have two birth certificates? I say yes. Even if it is only based upon the fact that, in the recently released 1911 census, Agatha Christie, under her original name of Agatha Marie Clarissa Miller, is recorded twice. Once in Ealing, London, and once in Torquay, Devon. Yes, it is the same person. But it's not a unique occurrence for a person to be in two places ostensibly at the same time. I hardly need point out that this actor, whatever he is, is not recorded in the 1911 census. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.4.224.82 (talk) 08:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In England and Wales, the birth certificate is the primary documentary proof of a person's date and place of birth, for nationality purposes, benefits rights and other legal purposes. The small print at the bottom of the certificate says something like "Caution: any person who (1) falsifies any of the particulars on this certificate or (2) uses a falsified certificate as true, knowing it to be false, is liable to prosecution". By law, a birth in England or Wales must be registered within 42 days, in the registration district in which it took place. Assuming that someone cannot be born in two different places, the existence of two certificates would mean that one had been falsified. The census is a different matter. Also, although the birth certificate is a legal document for nationality purposes, being provably born in the UK is not the only condition for establishing British nationality. Bluewave (talk) 17:57, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Date of Marriage
The main text says O'Toole and Philips married in 1960. The infobox has 1959. Can anyone clear up which is correct? ANB (talk) 01:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Article photos
I've reverted the change in photos. The Lawrence of Arabia photo is indeed in character, but it's an immediately and unconfusingly identifiable and recognizable image of O'Toole, immediately making clear to anyone coming to the article who he is. The Savannah picture is practically unrecognizable to anyone who hasn't followed O'Toole's later life, and it's not a good representation in any event, especially for an encyclopedia, for which clarity is foremost. The Savannah photo would not, I daresay, even be included in this article if it weren't a copyright-free Commons photo. I welcome discussion of this change, but I feel strongly that, barring discussion and opposing consensus, that the Lawrence portrait is by far the better representation of Peter O'Toole. Monkeyzpop (talk) 03:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, we'd best hope someone uploads a better photo of O'Toole at a later point, because although I agree the Savanna is a really poor photo, an image of him as he is naturally rather than one of him in an acting part is far superior for infobox purposes—we're dealing with the real person, not the character (whether based on another real person or not) he is portraying. I really don't see why two Lawrence of Arabia images need to be here anyway, it seems more like spamming them for the sake of it as they are copyright-expired. One image of him as T.E. Lawrence does the job well enough, and although we don't need to consider copyright, it is still a presentation issue. -- Sabre (talk) 17:41, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The photo is such a close-up that it transcends, in my opinion, its value as a movie still and becomes a portrait. Also, given the fact that without the source information, this could be a portrait of O'Toole from The Bible instead of Lawrence, I think its linkage to Lawrence in visual terms becomes even more tenuous.  And finally, it seems that 3/4 of the actor articles in WP have infobox photos that are not merely portraits in character, but actual frames from films or trailers.  The O'Toole photo seems wildly less egregious in this regard.  I suspect that if the Lawrence close-up had been the first photo ever submitted for the infobox, and the Savannah shot had never been included in the article, no one would be discussing this.  IMHO. Monkeyzpop (talk) 20:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * When I came across this article I had no idea who it was about until I scrolled down and saw the recent photo, knowing nothing about O'Toole's career prior to Troy. Whether you think that it transcends it value as a movie still or not by being such a close up is beside the point; bios on living people should contain the best, most recent image available. He's in costume and if it were just a frame it would be unsuitable for the infobox. Other actor articles generally use frames where the actor in question is wearing contemporary clothing. In addition to this, O'Toole is still working; people are also familiar with his recent career and appearance, and the article should reflect this. I'm not saying that the image should be removed, however a decidedly recent image of him out of character should head the article.86.10.75.40 (talk) 17:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with this last point. But there's a LOT of (much worse) examples than the O'Toole one.  Check out James Stewart (actor), Clayton Moore, Gene Autry, or Gabby Hayes. :-) Monkeyzpop (talk) 01:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that a "decidedly recent" image of O'Toole, or any other actor, is necessary for a Wikipedia article. The picture does not need to be the most recent, or the most beautiful, or the sexiest, or the most likable. For an actor, it needs to be the image that we instantly think of in connection to him, the one that defines his art and his persona. For O'Toole, this is unquestionably Lawrence of Arabia. O'Toole happens to be damned lucky that, in his case, the defining image shows his staggering handsomeness as a young man, and his acting genius. Younggoldchip (talk) 16:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Channel Four
Is O'Toole the comic voice of Channel four (pr E4 I forget), it just sounds like him and I wonder if anybody would know?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.222.195 (talk) 20:34, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Record Still Stands?
The article states that O'Toole holds the record for most Academy Award nominations without a win at 8. Composer Thomas Newman has been nominated 10 times without a win. Is the claim of a record still accurate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.243.182 (talk) 04:11, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure what's happened since you asked your question, but it currently says O'Toole "holds the record for most competitive Academy Award acting nominations without a win". --  JackofOz (talk) 08:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It also drops the word "competitive" in that sentence. How is that measured? --StringRay (talk) 19:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Competitive awards are those for which there are multiple nominees, the winner being decided by a vote. Such as Best Actor, Best Cinematography, etc.  Honorary awards, which is what O'Toole has been presented with, are decided by the Academy as an additional form of recognition for those considered worthy.  They generally acknowledge a person's entire career, their entire body of work, their overall significance to the industry - rather than any one specific film (although there have been exceptions to this; for example, Laurence Olivier was awarded an Honorary Oscar for his massive overall contribution to making Henry V, as well as being a nominee for competitive acting honours for the same film).   --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Peter O' Toole Is Irish
Peter O'Toole has said all of his life, and throughout his acting career, that he is Irish. His Irish father and British mother and his sister Patricia have always referred to O'Toole as Irish. Actress Sian Phillips, who was married to O'Toole for twenty years, refers to him throughout her autobiography Public Places as "Irish" and "The Irishman". Commenters can split hairs all they want, but it is unquestionably significant that those who are closest to O'Toole and his family history--as well as the man himself--believe that he is Irish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Younggoldchip (talk • contribs) 14:33, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, it seems a lot of people want to claim him as Irish. But he'd never be mistaken for an Irishman unless he told you, would he? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.177.224.197 (talk) 21:23, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not down to other people to decide for themselves whether he's Irish or not. He says so, and he has plenty of evidence to support such an identification - end of story.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid the fact that "he says" he's Irish doesn't make it so either. It seems very doubtful that he was -- as he claims -- born in Ireland. And, even if that were the case, he should still be described as English-Irish. He has only lived there very briefly and grew up in England. dc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.130.85 (talk) 12:36, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Self-identification with an ethnic group is ethnicity. We don't use ethnicity in describing a subject in the lead sentence, we use citizenship at the time they first became notable. Since his actual place of birth is unknown, we have to use the broader description of citizenship to assure accuracy. However, I've added his Irish ethnic self-identification to the infobox, could user Jack of Oz please provide a citation for Irish self-identification? Yworo (talk) 19:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please point to the policy which says "citizenship at the time they first became notable" and stop confusing nationality with citizenship its not the same thing, or equating nationalities (such as Irish) with ethnicities.  -- Snowded  TALK  01:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We should go along with what's in the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 17:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually his mother was English and not just British. Also, his strong personal identification should not be ignored. Also, MOS should not be ignored. Wait he's still alive (And younger than most people would think) so MOSBOS too. Also WPIGNORE. And seeing as people seem to hate it being bought up, I wont mention Uknats essay. Also no one has mentioned if he just identified as Irish. Also, may I point out that starting (the original comment was pretty stale) a discussion here when you are involved with one at C.S Lewis is generally frowned upon. --Nutthida (talk) 17:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also suggest people read the first archive, the section entitled "Peter O'Toole: "I'm Irish" - quite a productive and interesting read. --Nutthida (talk) 18:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If it were possible, someobdy should contact O'Toole & see how he self-indentifies today. GoodDay (talk) 20:11, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is wikipedia, his parents were born before 1922, they were British, so he must be British. 58.7.164.37 (talk) 22:27, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's nice, but I'm more interested in if he can provide a free image of himself NOT playing T.E Lawrence for the article. --Nutthida (talk) 23:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We'd be better off, having the nationality & citizenship deleted from all bio articles. GoodDay (talk) 16:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Id believe you if Irish wasn't the only one you remove. Mo ainm  ~Talk  20:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * See C. S. Lewis & Robert Burns then. I believe we should delete all the ..ish from bio intors & nationality/citizenship/ethnicity from all the bio's infoboxes. If we remove the problem, then there'll be nothing to fight over. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why will you go away then? Mo ainm  ~Talk  20:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please don't comment on contributor. GoodDay (talk) 20:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI, edit warring over the use of Irish-British is covered under the Troubles restrictions of 1RR, you have reverted twice, Mo ainm  ~Talk  20:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Noted & complied. More importantly, my deletions are in the article history, if editors want to review. GoodDay (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So your just making edits to make a point which is just disruption. Mo ainm  ~Talk  20:36, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

See message I left at your talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 20:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I know this is one of those questions I'm going to regret asking, because it seems so logical, but what citizenships does he possess? If he possesses both Irish and UK citizenship, is he not Irish-British?  I have no problem with the article showing him principally self-identifying ethnically as Irish, but the article should make it clear if he has both citizenships. Zachary Klaas (talk) 23:31, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Peter O'Toole has an Irish born father. He is under Irish law therefore automatically a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and is entitled to call himself an Irishman. It is a simple as that. He was, however certainly born in England (see my comments below under "How come 2 birth certificates?") so he has dual British and Irish nationality. John2o2o2o (talk) 23:43, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

How come 2 birth certificates?
How is it possible that the authorities in 2 different countries issued a birth certificate for the same person - at all, let alone for different dates? Presumably his parents and witnesses had to certify the correctness of the information on both occasions. Aren't there consequences for making false statements when lodging people's official birth and death records? --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It confuses me, aswell. GoodDay (talk) 17:32, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The simple answer is: "they won't" and "he can't" - if he has two then the Irish one is a forgery. I cannot verify whether or not the actor claims that he has two in his autobiography (as is suggested in this article) as I haven't read it, but I do know that there is no possibility of these two countries issuing one separately, unless his parents lied to the authorities. I am a professional genealogist. I have checked, and in fact there is no Peter O'Toole registered in Ireland in 1932, there is however a "Peter J O'Toole", with mother's maiden surname "Ferguson" registered in Leeds (England) in that year. That is the actor. He was (therefore) certainly born in England. Births taking place in England have to be registered within 6 weeks of the birth taking place and in the district in which the child was born. I note that he has acquired other middle names. That is his right, there is no law against that.

The actor may claim that he is unsure of the date...well in that case he could easily find out... however if he already has a certificate then there would be no point as the date will be on it! I suspect that he is simply fibbing about this matter. People like to create a bit of mystique about themselves. Perhaps the actor is proud of his Irish roots and resents being born in England. The possibility of being born in Ireland is certainly far more romantic than being born in Leeds! I don't know the reasons for his apparent vagueness about this, but born in England he most certainly was!

In reference to his nationality - any person with an Irish born parent is automatically an Irish citizen. O'Toole with an Irish born father is therefore perfectly entitled to call himself "Irish". He has dual nationality. This rule was probably introduced initially for the benefit of Eamon de Valera, born in New York City to an Irish mother and who was raised in Ireland. De Valera was, for those who do not know a key figure in gaining Irish independence. John2o2o2o (talk) 23:27, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Two pictures.
And both of him playing T.E Lawrence. Any more? --Nutthida (talk) 19:50, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There was one but it was deleted from Wikimedia Commons as copyvio. SpeakFree (talk)(contribs) 21:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out why someone would delete my explanation as to why an old actor should sometimes have a picture of himself in a youthful role beside his article. (Because it's proper that an actor of any age should be represented in Wikipedia by the image of his most famous role.) I wrote this at a time when O'Toole's article was, strangely, accompanied by a frighteningly hideous picture of this handsome man looking like the Ancient of Days. I'm now gratified to see the iconic Lawrence of Arabia picture where it should be. But please leave Talk Page contributions alone unless there is a truly compelling reason to remove them. Younggoldchip (talk) 19:07, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request
Everyone Knows That Peter O'Tool Is Irish Then Why Not Write About It. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.204.39 (talk • contribs) 08:53, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. Keith D (talk) 12:37, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Intro & Infobox
I'm baffled by the vandalism that some mad slashers have done on this site, in regard to O'Toole's nationality. For some reason, they work themselves into a lather trying to deny that he was Irish. It's actually quite simple. Any child born of an Irish parent has Irish citizenship. O'Toole's father was Irish. Therefore, O'Toole is an Irish citizen. Moreover, his wife of twenty years (Sian Phillips) referred to him as Irish and "The Irishman" throughout her memoir of their marriage. When a man's parents, longtime wife, friends, directors, biographers, tax records, passport and law of the land describe him as Irish, then he is Irish. Since O'Toole resided for long periods in England it's possible he has dual citizenship. However, he is--above all, and provably--Irish. Younggoldchip (talk) 22:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I've removed Irish from the intro & nationality/citizenship from the infobox. Yes, I know I'll be reverted, but atleast my changes will be in the article's history for editors to look at. If we were to avoid using British, Irish, this-ish & that-ish in the intro & simplify the infobox -- there'd be nothing to fight over. GoodDay (talk) 19:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Your petty campaign to remove all reference to Irish is laughable. Mo ainm  ~Talk  20:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * See C. S. Lewis & Robert Burns (for examples). We need to remove all these ..ish stuff from all these intros. GoodDay (talk) 20:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The article specifically states that his place of birth is unknown. Some sources say he was born in Ireland, some say in England. When sources disagree, we cannot arbitrarily decide to accept one and reject the other. In this case, we don't know whether he was really born in Ireland or England, and therefore we cannot simply pick one. We have to roll with the ambiguity of disagreeing sources and broaden the description to British, which it true regardless of which birthplace is correct. The Irish birth certificate is the most suspect, as it also has an incorrect birth month! Yworo (talk) 05:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd rather keep the intro clear of British or Irish & remove 'nationality' & 'citizenship' from the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 06:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, you'd rather. According to WP:MOSBIO, nationality at time of notability is a standard inclusion in the lead sentence. The lead is incomplete without it. Whoever changed it to Irish also removed that the place of birth is uncertain from the infobox, leaving only the Ireland birthplace. That's vandalism, pure and simple. Yworo (talk) 06:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Would you please point to this "nationality at the time of notability" policy pleased. Otherwise Irish is a nationality -- Snowded  TALK  09:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Yworo must be referring to this 'In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.' However I do agree per BLP we probably should keep it out of the intro if it's disputed and unclear and needs to be explained in the rest of the article. Nil Einne (talk) 14:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Given that O'Toole would have actually had (not even "been entitled to" - the successive Irish Nationality laws would have automatically given him Irish nationality) both Irish and British nationality for the whole of his adult life, if we must describe his nationality/ethnicity or whatever (I agree with GoodDay here, and would rather see all but the most obvious cases left to the body of the article) what he is on record - in reliable sources - as describing himself as should override other considerations. It is not up to Wikipedia editors to investigate supposed irregularities - that would certainly constitute WP:OR and should be left to journalists.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So, is the New York Post reliable for this statement that "[O'Toole's] Irish"? I know I'd generally look twice before taking the Post as an RS in most cases... -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd be OK with the Guardian - long interview here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is an interview with Sian Phillips who describes him as an Irishman.  And he says in his autobiography that he's an Irishman - hence me saying to go with whatever he says. Where there's a touchy dispute like this, really the only option is to go with what the chap describes himself as. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This one's the Daily Mail. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with self identification being a deciding factor when contentious. Similar to C.S. Lewis who identified as Irish but similar edit war going on over there extra admin eyes would be welcome. Mo ainm  ~Talk  17:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's a source for British actor . My point is, there's conflicting sources & so we should just leave British & Irish out. GoodDay (talk) 17:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So charlie rose calls him British but the actor calls himself Irish so are you suggesting we ignore his self identification? Mo ainm  ~Talk  17:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why didn't O'Toole 'correct' Rose? GoodDay (talk) 17:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * How am I suppose to know. Maybe he did. If conflicting sources then go with self identification. Mo ainm  ~Talk  18:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you wanna add Irish to the intro, go ahead - I'm not gonna edit-war over it. I'm just suggesting that it's better to leave out these descriptives. Atleast leave them out until the matter is settled. GoodDay (talk) 18:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * PS: That's the 2nd time, you've accused me of campaigning to get Irish out of this article's intro. I request that you stop with the breaching of WP:AGF & WP:HARASSMENT, via your edit summaries. GoodDay (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It is twice you have removed it. Mo ainm  ~Talk  18:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you've proof, that I'm on somekinda anti-Irish campaign, then take it to ANI. Otherwise, keep it out of your 'edit summaries'. GoodDay (talk) 18:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good day is right, no personal attacks applies to edit comments. Your edit comments should not ever mention another editor. Only content. Yworo (talk) 18:43, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Again we should clear the intro of Irish or British & delete the nationality & citizenship sections from the infobox, atleast until the dispute is resolved. GoodDay (talk) 19:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I would agree with that. The nationality thing needs way too much explanation for an infobox, and we have no idea which passport he carries - or if he has both, as it is quite OK to hold dual British and Irish citizenship, and I have a number of friends who carry two passports (it is apparently way less trouble to travel in many areas as an Irishman than an Englishman apparently). Just refer the curious to the text. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm just getting into this now - it buffaloes me that no one out there in the land of the net can answer what seems to me to be the simple question of whether O'Toole has both Irish and UK citizenships. If he self-identifies as Irish, great, no problem, but if he has both citizenships, it ought to say that in the article.  Somebody - somewhere - must have asked this obvious question and gotten an answer... Zachary Klaas (talk) 00:08, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Filmography
Shouldn't the filmography include his role in the 1991 comedy, King Ralph? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.97.185.65 (talk) 14:13, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Retirement announced
O'Toole announced his retirement in July 2012:
 * http://www.theguardian.com/film/2012/jul/11/peter-otoole-irish-actor-retires

"I bid the profession a dry-eyed and profoundly grateful farewell....It's my belief that one should decide for oneself when it is time to end one's stay. It is time for me to chuck in the sponge. To retire from films and stage. The heart for it has gone out of me: it won't come back."

For at least one independent UK film he came out of retirement:
 * http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/nov/26/peter-o-toole-katherine-of-alexandria
 * http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1587685/
 * http://katherineofalexandrialtd.createsend1.com/t/ViewEmail/d/7EC8C3E25253E614

72.244.204.217 (talk) 21:54, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2013
Comments which refer to O'Toole as being definitively British, English, or Irish born should be removed. There is no conclusive evidence to make firm statements as to the exact jurisdiction of his birth. Ergo, as this page will be viewed frequently in the coming days and weeks, any claims that definitely name his birth place should replaced immediately. It is noted that sentences in the current article that list his birthplace as England contain no citations.

Sentence in the opening paragraph: "Peter O'Toole[1][2] (2 August 1932 – 14 December 2013) was a British-born actor of Irish and Scottish descent" should be replaced with "Peter O'Toole[1][2] (2 August 1932 – 14 December 2013) was an actor of English, Irish and Scottish descent". From the 'Early Life' section, the sentence: "While some sources give his birthplace as Connemara, County Galway, Ireland, others who have reported Leeds, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, England, where he grew up have been correct," should be removed entirely and not replaced. Lordciansworth (talk) 21:57, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


 * If it is true that he was "offered a knighthood" as someone indicated in the text, then that clearly shows he was a British citizen. That does not mean he was not also an Irish citizen, if he chose to be, as we know Dublin loves poaching, but he was born Peter J. (presumably James) O'Toole in Leeds in 1932, and raised, educated and died in England. See the digitized online records of the England and Wales General Registry Office for birth record. Also, it appears that the Encyclopaedia Britannica source cites Connemara as his place of birth, which is disputed, although even that source indicates that "O'Toole grew up in Leeds, England, and was educated at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art in London. He was a reporter for the 'Yorkshire Evening Post' in his teens and made his amateur stage debut at Leeds Civic Theatre. After serving two years in the Royal Navy..." Quis separabit?  22:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * . Lordciansworth, you will have to provide reliable sources to backup your claim before this type of edit will even be considered, please re-activate this request after posting the verifiable sources. Mlpearc  ( open channel ) 11:30, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

BLP: Birth place and sourcing
As someone who has recently died, the policies that apply to biographies of a living person' still apply. WP:BLPPRIMARY states "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents... Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." You can use records for research but not give them as sources. It common enough that strong sources give contradictory information on such things as birth places and dates. The article body currently states that various sources cite various birth places. This is a transparent approach that does not seek to push 'one right answer' as there isn't one. Infoboxes are hopeless for putting a complex case, so birth place is best left off. Span (talk) 08:50, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The best guess is that he was born in Leeds (to an Irish father and Scottish mother) but I agree that we don't need to get into that in the lead. That he held British nationality from birth is I think pretty clear. Haldraper (talk) 12:29, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * We just go with the sources and the sources aren't clear. People have been fighting over O'Toole's citizenship since the article was created (as with every other English/Irish biography since WP began). Again, we just go with the sources. Where someone is born, where they lived and what citizenship they hold are different things. Span (talk) 13:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Isn't one way to find out to look at the shipping passenger lists between Ireland and the UK for 1932? If it's just his parents listed, he was born in Leeds. If it's his parents plus infant listed, he was born in Ireland? 62.7.179.160 (talk) 15:50, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

David de Donatello 1988
Peter O'Toole's David de Donatello 1988 award was as Best Supporting Actor, not as Best Foreign Actor--FranSisPac (talk) 20:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Middle name

 * Seamus Peter O'Toole - news sources books
 * Peter Seamus O'Toole - news sources books
 * Peter James O'Toole - news sources books

It seems that from multiple WP:RS, that Peter Seamus O'Toole was his full name - though I'd garner up a discussion here as I've seen the name changed a few times within the last 24 hours. Best, – Connormah (talk) 14:47, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, and it has been changed a few times but by the same person each time from what I see....ÓCorcráin (talk) 15:05, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of good sources for all three. See the discussion at the top of the page. Sources conflict and that's ok. Span (talk) 15:38, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * As you can see from the discussion above, his British birth certificate states that his middle name is "James". That is also confirmed here. So unless someone has access to his Irish birth certificate, and that birth certificate says "Seamus" instead of "James", "James" should stay as his legal birth name. All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 00:34, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I see it now. Besides, Seamus is apparently equivalent to James. Perhaps a footnote could work? – Connormah (talk) 01:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. There is nothing wrong with a footnote. All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 12:41, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Academy Honorary Award: 2003 or 2002?
The Wikipedia article about Peter O'Toole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_O%27Toole) says at the end of the second paragraph: "...and was the recipient of an Honorary Academy Award [sic] in 2003." Then in the paragraph at the end of Section 4 "Academy Award nominations" it says: "In 2003, the Academy honoured him with an Academy Honorary Award for his entire body of work and his lifelong contribution to film...."[33] And under References is found the reference cited: "33 ^ "Peter O'Toole Biography". Yahoo Movies. 2007. Retrieved 4 April 2008."

But in the Wikipedia article about the "Academy Honorary Award" [note the word order] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Honorary_Award) he is listed as having won this award in 2002.

Which year is correct?Wikifan2744 (talk) 01:53, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * He received the honorary Oscar in March 2003, just as the Iraq War was about to begin. (92.11.195.169 (talk) 17:48, 20 December 2013 (UTC))

Place of Birth
According to the Birth Index for England and Wales, 1916-2005, O'Toole was born in North Leeds, Yorkshire.

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=ONSBirth84&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=peter&gsln=o%27toole&msbdy=1932&dbOnly=_F0005648|_F0005648_x%2c_F000635B|_F000635B_x&uidh=h71&pcat=34&fh=3&h=29657612&recoff=3+5&ml_rpos=4

Name: 	Peter J O'Toole Mother's Maiden Surname: 	Ferguson Date of Registration: 	Jul-Aug-Sep 1932 Registration District: 	Leeds North Inferred County: 	Yorkshire Volume Number: 	9b Page Number: 	307

davidaniel37 (talk) 13:00, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


 * To further support daviddaniel37's comment above, there is an official UK Record Office (GRO) documented record of the birth of a Peter J. O'Toole registered at Leeds North district, volume 9b page 307, which states that the maiden name of the mother was Ferguson. The registry is for the quarter between July 1st and September 30 1932.
 * The scanned image of the official GRO record has those details at line 10 up from the bottom right of the page which I refer to in the citation below. The reference is here: .  It is a jpg image which most image viewers will be able to read.


 * Although this is not the actual source of the register entry, but a transcript, and errors in transcription have been known to happen, the volume and page number correspond to those in use in the Leeds North office at that time; it can be borne out by listing those others that are included on it at the time (a total of five entries).
 * I rather feel that, if the details on the article are to represent one place and one date, they ought to be those for Leeds North.  I haven't seen any information that confirms a birth in Ireland, other than the Encyclopedia Brittanica, which is a dubious source given the distance it has from an original.  The GRO index is second-generation, but without the actual birth certificate it is as good as it can get.


 * I hope to see that information shown in the article, but cannot edit it myself.


 * The policies that apply to 'biographies of a living person' still apply to someone who has recently died. WP:BLPPRIMARY states "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents... Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." You can use records for research but not give them as sources. Span (talk) 08:50, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Use of tertiary sources
Of course, experienced editors know that secondary sources are preferred to tertiary ones. We should not be using Encyclopedia Britannica unless there is no reliable secondary source for the information.

In the case of the uncertainty of birthplace, the source for this is O'Toole himself via his own memoirs. As a living person, we have to respect what he says about his own birth. You can't just pick one and claim it is the "true" birthplace, especially based on tertiary sources! Yworo (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * His memories were (according to the ref in this article) published in 1992 however. It's not impossible some source has sufficiently researched the matter by now that there is a more conclusive answer. Of course we will need some evidence for this, e.g. the source describing how they researched it or why they reached the conclusion rather then just the source saying he was born in country Z. I do agree we should be using secondary sources not tertiary ones. Nil Einne (talk) 18:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd certainly agree with that. I'm intrigued that the birthdate that he accepts is on the English certificate, with a date two months earlier on the Irish one. A source that goes into details about how they determined which one was real or most accurate would be a fascinating read. Yworo (talk) 18:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Another constant problem with having nationality in infoboxes is neatly illustrated by the wife of a friend of mine. Her father was a diplomat with the Indian civil service - she was born in Italy and got her schooling in New Delhi and England. If you ask where she's from, she'll tell you "Madras", because that's where the family came from generations back, and aunts and uncles still live there, although she never has. Many Catholics of Irish parentage think of themselves as Irish even if they were born in England or the US, and of course DeValera's nationality laws made them all Irish anyway. Nationality is often only where you're born, or which passport you carry, when it aligns with where you think of as your roots.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC
 * Can anyone explain how the Britannica ref in the lead has suddenly gone from confirming Irish identity to supposedly attesting English identity despite stating:


 * "Peter O’Toole, in full Peter Seamus O’Toole  (born August 2, 1932, Connemara, County Galway, Ireland), Irish stage and film actor  whose range extended from classical drama to contemporary farce...."?
 * I've provisionally tagged it as 'failed verification'. RashersTierney (talk) 22:51, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Reason is that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is too generous and vague at times, and not normally subject to jingoist claims on the loyalties of those biographed on its pages. Quis separabit?  23:42, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

The birth records confirm that O'Toole was born in Leeds in 1932. Even if he identifies as Irish he was not born in Ireland. (92.7.14.252 (talk) 23:24, 17 September 2012 (UTC))
 * Fine. So lets have the reference that attests 'the birth records confirm that O'Toole was born in Leeds in 1932'. RashersTierney (talk) 23:32, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems O'Toole is content with leaving the issue ambiguous. RashersTierney (talk) 19:13, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * So now someone has it that he's an "Irish born British actor" !! Whether he's Irish or English or British, the man was born in Leeds!  So this silly silly silly silly argument has wound up with a piece of pure misinformation as its conclusion.  Call him English-Irish, Irish-English, English actor of Irish descent--who cares? but if you're gonna say he was born in Ireland, you might as well call him Lithuanian.  06:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Call him a Human being or a Homo Sapien or something, so you can all stop arguing and embrace the human spirit. --85.210.106.83 (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Homo sapiens is singular. What next - one circu, many circus?  one chao, many chaos?  one kudo, many kudos?  one gravita, many gravitas?  .......  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:55, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Birth
Place of birth - IRELAND. Nationality - IRISH.... Please be respectful, and place IRISH as his first nationality no matter where he was reared or lived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnnaMarie32 (talk • contribs) 04:07, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The records show O'Toole was born in Yorkshire. (92.11.195.169 (talk) 17:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Indeed, if people would drop their nationalistic fire then it would be obvious that he was more likely to of been born in England rather than Ireland. Still, it has no bearing on his nationality... --Somchai Sun (talk) 17:48, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Still, it has no bearing on his nationality..." -- really? Actually, unless he officially renounced his British nationality then he remained a British citizen, under British immigration and nationality law, as far as I know, regardless of whether or not he chose to take an Irish passport later in life. Quis separabit?  19:29, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * He always regarded himself as Irish, no? Nationality and Citizenship are often treated as separate entities. --Somchai Sun (talk) 19:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "He always regarded himself as Irish, no?". I don't know that. Any quotes to back that up? Why did he serve in the Royal Navy, no less? I don't believe anything jingoistic newspapers and editors claim (not referring to you here, btw, just in general). Quis separabit?  20:52, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Sources.....yes, check archives? Tired now. Bai. --Somchai Sun (talk) 00:55, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Although everyone from the British Isles is British anyway. (92.11.195.169 (talk) 19:06, 20 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Try telling that to the people from the Republic of Ireland. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  06:12, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Or the majority of the residents in Derry :) (and no, the Irish tribes were 'not' considered Britons either!) Somchai Sun (talk) 10:33, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

The Republic has been reunited with the UK since they both joined the EEC together on 1st January 1973, although the British Isles is a geographical term. (92.11.193.246 (talk) 17:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Sadly, no. Quis separabit?  19:02, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Well you can't deny we're not all Europeans. --Somchai Sun (talk) 18:15, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Some people think the British Isles are two islands off the coast of Europe. (92.11.193.246 (talk) 18:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC))

Date and cause of death
Reported today, died yesterday - see BBC, the Guardian and please stop reverting. --Michig (talk) 18:45, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

The article lists his death as Cancer of the stomach, however there are no articles at all regarding this. Mr. O'Toole suffered cancer if the stomach in the 1970's and survived. The only media I have seen says "After a long illness" there's nothing at all to suggest he actually had a relapse of stomach Cancer. I suggest this be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by XLII42 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Agree. Quis separabit?  21:01, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Questions to Tyrsóg aka ÓCorcráin

 * "You have a block log a mile long and now I can see why, but I cannot understand why you have not been indefinitely blocked. You better take a step backwards and relax before you hang yourself with your personal abuse and get blocked." -- I am not committing any personal abuse here; I am standing up for what I believe is right. You sound disgruntled -- is that because you can't have your way? Quis separabit?  21:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "and you keep ignoring the fact that O'Toole identified himself as an Irish man not British" -- first of all at what age did he begin to identify as Irish; after serving with the Royal Navy? And when did he ever legally or even informally discard all of his British identity and citizenship? When did he ever say: "I am not British, I am Irish."? He had no problems relying on the NHS when he was battling cancer or in his last years when he settled in London, not Dublin or Cork or Tralee or Connemara. And what about his his Scottish mother; did he discard her as well? Quis separabit?  21:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "It was actually my idea to include his British citizenship into the infobox." -- don't know about that but it would have been added anyway, so you can stop slapping yourself on your own back. When I was referring to "jingoism" (above), I was explicitly referring to Irish nationalist media that were attempting to do in their domain what you are trying to do here. Quis separabit?  21:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "anyone with a couple of brain cells would know that. " -- outright insult. I'll allow you that one, Tyrsóg, as you do not know how to lose, but any future insults will see me lodge a complaint at ANI. Quis separabit?  23:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * And finally, if what you are interested in is the exact, precise "truth" as you see it, then I suggest restoring my original lede version of O'Toole's complicated nationalisms, which perfectly captures, philosophically and chronologically, the "truth" in a narrative which is objective:"British-born and educated actor of Irish and Scottish descent, who acquired Irish nationality later in life."
 * Respectfully submitted for consensus. Quis separabit?  21:59, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Respectfully request you remove any mention of ethnicity as it is clearly a violation of the MOS. It doesn't add anything to the lead. Now, I can't see this being resolved any time soon, and it's Christmas so...Merry Nollag to you all and see you in the new year. --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:47, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * If you are referring to the suggested phrasing British-born and educated actor of Irish and Scottish descent, who acquired Irish nationality later in life, then you should know it was already rewritten in the article lede a while ago by Haldraper. Otherwise I have no idea what you are referring to in the article. I know you can't be referring to anything on this talk page because talk pages are for the free exchange of ideas and positing arguments. Please explain when you return onwiki what violation of MOS you are talking about. Quis separabit?  23:03, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Quis separabit, I would appreciate if you ceased your incivility and also not refer to my contributions as a "tirade", it is clear you are emotionally involved in these edits and you should take a step backwards and take a deep breath. I kindly ask you to edit your description of my talk page contribution as a "tirade" and retract your remarks about me. Merry Christmas. ÓCorcráin (talk) 03:31, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * As far as incivility goes: "instead of mouthing off like a twit, and you keep ignoring the fact that O'Toole identified himself as an Irish man not British, one's ethnic identity and nationality are completely different from citizenship, anyone with a couple of brain cells would know that" -- I think that is a good example. I am unaware of anything remotely similar on my part.
 * However and nonetheless: Merry Christmas to you, as well. Let's agree to a truce until after New Year's Day, at least, although I would be happy to declare the matter resolved and leave things as they are now, if you and Somchai Sun agree. Quis separabit?  21:04, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

...slow moving edit wars...
Are disruptive and most of all, annoying. I am pretty tired of seeing the lead change day by day here. If this continues, well, you know what's going to happen. And its happened so many times before, that it usually ends up with the lede being blanked or made "neutral" - whatever that means. Can people please find the truth and be done with it? Not likely. Rant over. --Somchai Sun (talk) 11:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In the words of Phoebe Buffay, "STOP THE MADNESS!!!". Thank you. --Somchai Sun (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree. I am getting tired of this intransigence and constant changing of the lede for jingoistic reasons. I would like to remove the article from my watchlist so I can concentrate on other matters. It may be time for DISPUTE RESOLUTION. (NOTE: Dispute resolution sought (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Peter_O'Toole.) Quis separabit?  19:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Identity
Let's look at it this way. What if every Irish individual with an article on Wikipedia who lived between 1801 and 1922, for example, were described as "British" due to the Act of Union? That would be foolish, inaccurate and obviously offensive. It is equally offensive, at least as far as I am concerned, and I know others agree, to state in the lede of an article about a man who was |_F0005648_x%2c_F000635B|_F000635B_x&uidh=h71&pcat=34&fh=3&h=29657612&recoff=3+5&ml_rpos=4 born, educated, served in the Royal Navy, worked, lived and died in England, that he was Irish, especially when compromise terms such as "British-Irish" are available. What about his Scottish mother? Maybe he should be described as "British-Irish-Scottish"? Jingoistic Irish media do not get to decide. Quis separabit? 19:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Everybody from the British Isles is British. O'Toole was English, having Irish ancestry does not count as truly Irish. (2.103.233.183 (talk) 14:05, 25 October 2014 (UTC))
 * You mean people with British citizenship are British...I sincerely hope you are excluding non-UK citizens, i.e citizens of the ROI, from your assertion.--Somchai Sun (talk) 14:22, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That would be UK citizenship. The British Isles is a geographical term and has never been a political term. (2.103.233.183 (talk) 14:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC))
 * You are quite correct. The term British Isles is also not used in Ireland (unless you count British nationalist provocation in Northern Ireland) as it is considered "inherently anti-Irish" - even though the term is rarely used in the UK to describe anything cultural or political. --Somchai Sun (talk) 14:27, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Well I've never been to Ireland so I wouldn't know about that, but personally it seems denying that one is from the British Isles is like denying you are from Europe. The term is often still used on weather reports. (2.103.233.183 (talk) 14:54, 26 October 2014 (UTC))

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:53, 3 May 2016 (UTC)