Talk:Peterloo Massacre/Archive 2

Peterloo Print
A bit late in the day I know, but I've just found this print Dreadful scene at Manchester, 1819. and also a useful site called:The March to Peterloo: Politics and Festivity in Late Georgian England from Oxford university with an interesting anlysis of the politics of Peterloo - and it's fully referenced too! Richerman (talk) 14:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It's public domain (due to age). If there was a desire, I could clean it up (digitally) and have it included here or at commons? --Jza84 | Talk  14:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it's good and gives a different viewpoint from the others, and also an idea of the size of the field - assuming it's an accurate representation, of course. It's really a question of whether it would fit in to the article. Richerman (talk) 14:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Might go in the Meeting section? --Jza84 | Talk  14:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added it, but remove if need be. --Jza84 | Talk  14:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks good there to me, lets see what the ruthless "Malleus the Slasher" thinks about it:-) Richerman (talk) 15:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind! ;-) The picture seems fine to me there as well. As you say, it gives an impression of the field's size. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 15:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Had to change something though didn't you slasher? Richerman (talk) 15:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Slasher? --Jza84 | Talk  16:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ruthlessly ferrets out and slashes unneeded text, bad punctation, dodgy references and anything else that gets in his way. Richerman (talk) 16:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I was worried it meant something else! Nevermind! --Jza84 | Talk  16:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It did, I was just trying to save his embarrassment - it's no fun getting old you know:-) I see we made the front page with DYK today - and I thought we'd been ruled out. Watch out for a rash of vandalism for a day or so but check the stats in a couple of days and you should be impressed. Richerman (talk) 18:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, just a reference to my age, that's OK then. I thought you might have been referring to my ruthless slashing of the Eye witness accounts ;-). You wouldn't be the first to say that I have a tendency towards the zen idea that "less is more". --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 15:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * As if I would comment on your slashing of all my hard work at the behest of an FA reviewer, perish the thought :-) Richerman (talk) 15:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Slashed but not lost. It might be worthwhile putting those eye witness accounts into WikiQuotations, or whatever it's called, and building up a collection of them that we could refer to from this article? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 16:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * God, this space is so small I can't brea..... Anyway, I was thinking of doing something like that - something else I'll have to find out about now. Richerman (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This like a game of chicken. Who's going to break first and unindent? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Not me! --Jza84 | Talk  18:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, I'm back home now and my home PC is widescreen so I've got more room. Maybe I'll start using chinese charcters that read vertically - then I'll win hands down. Tee-hee Richerman (talk) 21:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Chinese characters don't read vertically on this PC, this is a British PC. Admittedly all of its parts were made in China though. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, bugger! Richerman (talk) 21:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 我们是傻子. If you really wanted it authentic&mdash;and it would be old-fashioned now&mdash;it would have to be going from right to left as well as going vertical. A barnstar to the first person who can translate what I wrote in Chinese.  DDStretch    (talk)  21:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I can see clearly what you wrote, so I'm not sure why you're offering a barnstar. You wrote: "我们是傻子". :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok. "Translate into English", I meant. And, as for a barnstar, it was the first thing I thought of that could be easily given electronically as a token prize. If you want, I can send you 一个小奖品.  DDStretch    (talk)  21:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Would an "?????" be likely to bite me, kill me, or eat me? I think I'll pass on your offer to send me one, just on the off-chance that my Chinese may be a little rusty. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting it didn't come out right for you. In (untoned) Pinyin, I wrote "yi ge xiao jianpin" which means "a small prize" in English. The first Chinese I wrote was (again in untoned pinyin) "women shi bendan" which literally translates as "we are fools", but, because of the way the Chinese language works, could also mean "we are being foolish."  DDStretch    (talk)  22:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well watch out for Malleus "the hammer of the fools" Fatuarum Richerman (talk) 22:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 8-) Glad someone got the allusion in the Chinese!  DDStretch    (talk)  22:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm still not unindenting :) --Jza84 | Talk  23:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You'll have to soon, or else invest in a very wide screen. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Peterloo Banner
I'm shocked that an admin would get involved in such silliness so I'm starting a new subject before we get shouted at by the outlaw Josey Wales or Jimbo or whatever he's called :-) There's an intersting point made here about why there is only one banner from Peterloo left in existence. Is it worth putting it in? And when was Lord Liverpool's government that it talks about? Richerman (talk) 21:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * What's happened? What silliness? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I shall treat that remark with the conserve it detempts. And now I've shown my ignorance about Lord liverpool, I've looked him up up on wikipedia and I now know he was conterperanuminious with Peterloo (blush!) Richerman (talk) 22:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that I still have no idea what you're talking about. I am not an admin, nor ever likely to be one. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Nah, but I think the other geezer with the big chest is Richerman (talk) 22:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Although I'm probably wrong about that too Richerman (talk) 22:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone who contributed to that thread is an administrator, and I know that at least two don't really want to be one, either.  DDStretch    (talk)  22:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * My rash assumptions again - I should have said "such venerable editors". Anyway, moving swiftly on to cover my embarrassment I see the article got 6.9K hits yesterday (see here)- pretty damned impressive I'd say

My perception is that you are upset with me because I removed a section from this article that you had worked on, at the behest of an FA reviewer, and it's true that I did exactly that. You must bear in mind though that that reviewer had something like 14 FAs to her credit last year alone, is deservedly well respected, and I agreed with her opinion. FA is a collaborative venture, it shouldn't be a battle. Creating a separate Eye witness accounts section in WikiQuotes will enhance both the body of quotations and this article. I am sorry that my decision has upset you, but I remain convinced that I was right. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Woah, sorry, youve misunderstood me, I'm not in the least upset - just taking the piss as usual, that's why there's a smiley there. The sillines I was talking about is the bit I started myself with the indents. I thought DDstretch was an admin but I'm confusing him/her with someone else. You and the others have worked hard on this article and I'm happy for you to take out anything that gets in the way of FA. To paraphrase something you said a while ago when webhamster was having a row, if I was upset that easily I'd need to get out more :-) Richerman (talk) 23:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that WebHamster and I were soulmates, and I'd very much like to see him back. We've all worked hard on this article and we're so close now. Just a few more nerve-jangling days ... --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. This has been a great team effort and certainly the greatest I've been involved with on Wikipedia. I really hope we get FA, it would be proof that we can work together objectively and generate quality articles as a collective. I'd certainly be willing to do another with you guys. (P.S. Neilston got 15k visitors last week!) --Jza84 | Talk  23:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Me too, and I couldn't agree more about Hammy, one of the good guys (present company included of course!) I hope he comes back someday. It was tragic that he left the project. Richerman (talk) 23:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Apart from anything else, I've got a pile of library books I need to return soon, so let's do this! :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've only been tangentially involved in a very small way with this article (been busy doing other things, both on and off wikipedia), but I have admired the way you have all worked together to get it into shape.  DDStretch    (talk)  00:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hold fast me hearties, we've got them on the run, victory's in sight. The project expects that every man - sorry, person, will do his/her duty, regardless of gender, age, race, sexual persuasion or edit conflicts. Richerman (talk) 00:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

We've done it!
There should be a litle bronze star at the top of this article very shortly. I can hardly say how pleased I am that we've managed to get this article from start to FA in what, a month? It's a testament to the GM project that Jza84 set up. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, I was just about to go to bed too. Splice the mainbrace, break out the champers congratulations one and all! Richerman (talk) 00:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Great news! Though I merely helped to set WP:GM up, User:Pit-yacker was the original proposer.... anyway, that's a different story!!!! This is really great news. Do we book our main page slot now!? --Jza84 | Talk  02:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent news, especially in view of the speed at which it was achieved. Incredible!  I had no chance to help in any way, as I was busy with my own FAC (unsuccessful this time ... I'll try again!), but I'll do a spoken version as soon as I can (I'll probably start tomorrow).  Incidentally I sometimes lurk around the "Today's Featured Article" request page, and there have been a few rule changes recently, including the introduction of a points system; the main rule is that candidates cannot be proposed earlier than thirty days before the desired date.  We'd better put 17 July in our diaries now!  :)  Hassocks5489 (talk) 22:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * As I reflect on this now, I'm frankly dumbfounded that we managed to get the article from this to FA in just three weeks. So the moral of the story, Hassocks5489, is that's much easier to go to FAC with a bunch of great editors backing you up. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Spoken version added
I have added a spoken version of this article; see the link above. Hassocks5489 (talk) 22:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Military lead by a Captain Worsley
According to, the military were lead by a Captain Worsely (correctly spelled as "Worsley"), who resided at Platt Hall in what's now Platt Fields Park. It's a bit unclear, though, which military he was leading. It may be worth integrating this into the article somewhere, but I'm unsure as to where. Mike Peel (talk) 20:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That looks like a pretty dubious claim to me. Worsley certainly didn't lead the military at Peterloo, but I suppose he could have been an officer in the 15th Hussars, for instance. But I'm wondering whether this isn't a confusion with the Charles Worsley who was one of Cromwell's major-generals, and the first MP for Manchester? I quote from the ODNB: "Charles Worsley fought for parliament in Lancashire during the first civil war, rising to the rank of captain". --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The Worsleys have been in the area for a while (they owned the Platt Fields estate between 1625 and 1907 according to the same website), so there could have been more than one Captain Worsley. I would have thought the Manchester City Council to be fairly reliable, but it could well be a mistake on their part. Mike Peel (talk) 07:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The map
Hello,

This map (right) has been produced in SVG format as an alternate, improved, version of the current PNG map. What do people think? There seems to be a bit of bunching, and I'm torn on it. Can anybody improve upon this proposed version? --Jza84 | Talk  18:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that it's an improvement at all, no. I'm sure we can do better than that. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think so too. Although I have a BA in this field, SVG is a format I'm not familliar with at all. I made the request to improve the map here, but like yourself, wasn't blown away with the result. I was hoping for something more like Image:Manchester parish map.svg, which appears to be by our very own User:Mr Stephen. :) --Jza84 | Talk  18:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a nice piece of work by Mr Stephen. SVGs are easy enough to work with using something like inkscape. What do we want, just the text sorting out? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If someone is planning on creating a new image then please consider making the oroginal image as that on the main page. That way the imagemap will work without any adjustment assuming that the words are in approximately the same place. Otherwise I'll redo it. Victuallers (talk) 19:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree the locations should be in the same place too. I was just thinking either we convert the map to an exact SVG version, or, something with a bit of colour and flare, a little like the Manchester (ancient parish) map. --Jza84 | Talk  09:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this what you meant by an exact copy? (I'm not sure of the copyright declaration, by the way.) I just ran this off in a minute or so using some free tokens on vectormagic. DDStretch   (talk)  09:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Plaque
Just incase we wanted it in the future, I came across this image of a plaque at Middleton, at geograph.org.uk. --Jza84 | Talk  19:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Battle of... Piccadilly?
OK, this might sound a little odd, and I'm aware I might get opposition to this... but would the 2008 UEFA Cup Final riots make a suitable entry under the See also heading? For those not in the know, it's been dubbed the Battle of Piccadilly --Jza84 | Talk  00:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ooooh. Not sure I like that idea. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be a bit better than the Battle of Piccalilli, though. (sorry, just couldn't resist that)  DDStretch    (talk)  00:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That's bad. Real bad. :O --Jza84 | Talk  00:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * One day DDStretch, jokes like that will get you in a real pickle. Nev1 (talk) 00:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yikes! Is this a pre-arranged test for me NOT to abuse my hoped-for blocking powers?! --Jza84 | Talk  00:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely not appropriate. Chrisieboy (talk) 12:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * ...well that killed the joke.
 * Alas, poor humour, I knew it well. Nev1 (talk) 13:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)