Talk:Pharah

Organizational struture
Maybe we can put the Appearances section above the Dev and design section? I don't think it necessarily needs to be formatted like a fighting game character, but I looked up Juri (Street Fighter) and think that has a formatting similar to the one you're talking about in your edit summary. Please link me a better example if that one doesn't seem to match what you're referring to.

For the merchandising/promotion info, I feel like it's too small for Pharah to warrant its own section but Manual of Style/Video games lists Merchandising as going below Appearances, which is why I've usually combined merchandising into appearances since my take is, it's the character appearing in officially licensed (or even fan-made) merchandising. And often times, it seems disjointed from Reception discussion because unless we can include some critical commentary on that merchandise, it really doesn't have anything to do with Reception about the character(?). I think that's applicably true for Pharah here, since only the Hasbro packaging of Mercy + Pharah figures can really be tied into what's included as reception of the character (I think somewhere between source 41, currently the Rude Out source and source 42, the Knoop Daily Dot source, would work).

I think I'd rather have Merchandise as its own section, as per the MoS suggestion. I'm not sure though; I get MoS is offering an effective, but ultimately simply only one possible formatting. Best wishes Soulbust (talk) 09:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm really wanting to keep it to the structure I normally work with, just because it's easier to flow. It's not so much a fighting game thing as wanting to keep a particular structural format I've found works best for the reader. I do plan on rewriting the sections above reception to better flow but also understanding. Like for example the reception section on her gampelay as it is feels out of place, but it can still be worked in while discussing it (i.e. informing the reader what a thing did, and if necessary what the reaction was or some possible cited outcomes of it).
 * I want to keep the merchandise info as part of the reception wording because that's what it tends to be: trying to list merchandise on its own I've noticed in the past can get the ire of some editors who feel that info is 'cruft', but working it around (i.e. talking about Blizzcon 2014 for example and how people reacted to her reveal, hopefully there's a source on that) and working other smaller things as mentions (such as bringing up that rather odd cookbook as an aside) should give an alright paragraph to illustrate how the character was introduced to the public via the creators. That's a big part of where I go when it comes to that, because it can be seen as impacting reception.
 * I got a plan here, I just need to work. And if I can solidify this here maybe we can use the structure to improve some of the other articles later. A side note, do you have a source repository your keep handy? I've been running across stuff discussing the other characters, such as Widowmaker's and Bastion's design in the grand scheme of the game.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:34, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's some examples of the formatting I'm talking about:


 * Nemesis (Resident_Evil)
 * Merchant (Resident_Evil)
 * Poison (Final Fight)
 * Makoto (Street Fighter)
 * Hope this gives a better idea.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fair. Like I've said I don't really think one formatting is necessarily better than the other, so I'll just leave it the way it is for now, and probably for long-term since it has developed well and does indeed have good flow.
 * I get your pointabout the merchandise section maybe being considered cruft, but that'd be a legit excessive assertion by such editors. I think the Tracer article's formatting about merchandising and promotion works where it is.
 * So I'm just a little concerned (maybe more curious than concerned) in regard to what you mean about using this structure to improve some of the other character ones. I think this can be useful on ones that haven't been developed firmly and fully like Brigitte, Hanzo, Doomfist, Wrecking Ball. Maybe Soldier: 76 and Mei fit this bill too? But there are some like D.Va that don't really need full reworks. Maybe just tweaks. I don't know, I just think the differences Overwatch has with other games (no story mode being the biggest and most glaring, but also considering the FPS/hero shooter genre versus fighting games aspect of it) mean that we don't really need to follow the "Conception and design" -> "Appearances" -> "Promotion and recepetion" structure on every character article. Though some it can work for, especially if it's an article that is already underdeveloped, like I said. But those examples are good ones, they definitely help me get a better picture of what you're going for. Especially the Poison one since it offers a more extended (is that fair to say?) discussion about her than the other three. Soulbust (talk) 00:40, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

On source reliability
I agree a good article nom will be imminently deserved for this article, and thank you for the hard work on it and for collaborating with me on this one even if we haven't agreed on some things.

One question I think may be posed at a GA review is the reliability of BlizzPlanet. Currently isn't listed over WP:VG/RS under any status, and this was the only mention or reference to the source I could find when searching on all the project's talk pages. And that would probably and should probably be disregarded too, considering it was nearly 15 years ago. I'm wondering if we should maybe inquire about the reliability of BlizzPlanet over at WP:VG/RS? Soulbust (talk) 10:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we should be fine, they're cited in at least two books and multiple papers, and we're citing them just for the transcription of the events in this case. Blizzard themselves seems to count them as reliable given the number of interviews they've given the site so I'm pretty sure I could argue it at a GAN.
 * By the way touching base with you, plan for the Gameplay section is to have two paragraphs: one discussing her gameplay and skill set (we need to aim for this too in a way the everyman who has never touched Overwatch can get it) and another discussing developer comments and to a lesser extent how she changed through patches. Want to avoid GameGuide ultimately but still inform the reader of what she does and intentions.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 10:15, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good on both fronts. Perhaps at a later time we could bring up BlizzPlanet on WP:VG/RS and mention the points you brought up right now as reasoning for its inclusion under the Reliable sources.
 * Gameplay section being two paragraphs makes sense to me rn. As they currently exist, first four can be combo'd into one since they are all about the base gameplay functions, while the last two can be about the sort of development history of that gameplay. Might have to move June 2015 previewing of her abilities into that latter paragraph. Soulbust (talk) 10:19, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Also not sure if we necessarily need to cut any of the current info included outright, but some restructuring or tweaks to the wording can definitely be made. I tried to get a little bit of a start on that already, but I'll be heading to bed for the moment.
 * Have a busy day offline ahead, so will be able to check up on the article in like ~15-20 hours or so. Best wishes, Soulbust (talk) 10:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Checked on it right now and see you have gone through and submitted it for a GA review. Hopefully it goes through, and I think it easily will pass. I'll see if I can add myself as a co-nom on the listing at WP:GAN since I'd like to help out with the process of addressing reviewer comments and GA status was always a long-term goal of mine for this article when I began adding to the article back in October. Glad to see it be at the state it is now. Soulbust (talk) 22:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Lede

 * @Kung Fu Man Dont really care to revert again, but is it being uncommon a strong enough reason to include it in the lede? Doesn't it have to be (not so) lowkey a defining part of her characterization/reception (as per sourcing)? Soulbust (talk) 08:51, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I recognize it's done terribly on the part of the devs...but it feels like something we'd get dinged for *not* mentioning in the lead, akin to if we omitted the voice actress. --Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:53, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ig that's fair enough. More of a maybe to me, like I think there's a solid chance we wouldn't. But maybe one of those things to include unless we get dinged for including. Everything else in the lede just seems way more defining of her character (at least at this point in time I suppose). Soulbust (talk) 09:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah the media more or less went "Oh, you guys did this again" and then quickly moved on.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)