Talk:Phil Lane Jr.

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Copied discussion from The Teahouse
I like Wikipedia...it gives a good base of knowledge. But...as I research topics attributed to Indigenous knowledge and healing, I come across people who are making their very well endowed non-Indigenous livelihood from the riches of Indigenous knowledge...this is not right! It annoys, irritates and frustrates me that they purport to be Indigenous Chiefs or Leaders or Businesses...and really it is their thirst for the almighty dollar that leads them...this is so rampant and so...blatantly there - that these "white-privileged" people can ride on the backs of us Indigenous people!! Arghhhhhh!!!!!! What can we do about this? What is the best way to call them out and effect a positive change? Dene Woman (talk) 04:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , welcome to the Teahouse. I know it's frustrating to see injustices on Wikipedia. Please enjoy some calming tea.
 * Could you link to the Wikipedia articles that you're referring to, so that other editors can take a look?
 * Some things to keep in mind are WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS–Wikipedia is not a place to right great wrongs. If there is WP:BIAS in articles, that's something else, and we can address that. Maybe you could specify what your concerns with certain articles are exactly. –– FormalDude Emojione 1F427.svg talk 04:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks the tea Formal Dude...ahhhh...just what I needed to cool down...
 * so was researching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Phil_Lane_Jr.
 * and then found this source
 * http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2731.0
 * that's gives a different perspective
 * perhaps it's possible to add the additional perspective?
 * Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by ::Dene Woman (talk • contribs) 05:28, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The source you gave is an online forum, which is one of the most unreliable types of sources that exists, so it's not suitable for Wikipedia (see WP:UGC). Do you have any reliable sources that provide other points of view? –– FormalDude Emojione 1F427.svg talk 06:13, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Regardless of appropriaton — MOS:HON suggests that honorifics such as "chief" should not be used in article titles. Maproom (talk) 09:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The article Chief Phil Lane Jr. dates to 2013, and has had many contributors. If there is a controversy about his ancestry/background/activities that could be added, but it would need reliable source references. David notMD (talk) 11:48, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Disclaimer: I have about zero knowledge of Native Americans (demography, history, culture etc.). This being said, I read the linked forum thread and I think there is a few intertwined questions here:
 * 1) Whether there should be an article about Phil Lane Jr. on Wikipedia. This asks whether that person is "notable" which in turn depends on the existence of reliable sources talking/writing about him at length; while I am not impressed by the current references (non-independent sources for the most it seems), I do not have the inclination to do the required check before thinking about nominating the article for deletion. Notice that one can be notable despite, or because, one is a fraudster.
 * 2) Whether Phil Lane Jr. can legitimately claim to be a Native; and whether he can legitimately claim to have some rank or status (chief? medicine man? I have no idea what those terms mean) within the relevant NA community. That is not a question for Wikipedia editors; however, if there is a sourced consensus within the relevant community that he should/should not be called "chief" or whatever, this ought to be in the article. Conversely, he should not be called a "chief" or anything else without a reliable source, and "chief" should probably not be in the page title as Maproom indicated above.
 * 3) Whether Wikipedia should make claims pertaining to what medical practices Phil Lane supports and/or sells. For any medical claims, the heightened standard of WP:MEDRS should be followed (which likely kills 99% of medical knowledge alleged to stem from Native American practice). For claims about historical authenticity, we should still use reliable sources, which definitely excludes people trying to sell such practices (see the so-called "Tibetan singing bowls" in our article Standing bell for an example of modern fabrication).
 * 4) Whether Wikipedia should "call out", or otherwise take action against Phil Lane, whether as retaliation for having had a misleading/glowing article for years, or to do justice to Native Americans. Most definitely not. Even if the wrongness of one individual could be clearly established (which does not seem clear to me here), we are not in that business.
 * 5) Finally, what sources would be acceptable for topics pertaining to Native Americans. The potential problem is that if a fraudster is an expert at playing the Western/Anglo-Saxon media, it is easy to have "reliable sources" putting them down as a chief or writing other stuff, which would be rejected by a clear consensus within the oral tradition culture of which the fraudster claims to originate. (I count forum posts as "oral tradition" here since they are rejected as unreliable all the same). That question goes well beyond this instance, and it is hard to see what a proper fix would be. (See also Systemic_bias even though the case of oral tradition is not mentioned specifically there.)
 * Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 16:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC) –– FormalDude Emojione 1F427.svg talk 08:04, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

To the argument above on the validity of Chief Phil Nathan Lane Jr.
To answer the questions above, yes he is a Native American, and he is not a fraud. The terminology of fraud comes from modern medical medicine, he is a traditional Native American medicine. Who are you to discount traditional practices of indigenous people? I have met this man with my association as a member of the American Indian Science & Engineering Society (AISES). I have met his father who I saw as a grandfather figure for me while a student at Oregon State University, where he was the Spiritual Elder for our student chapter of AISES. His great great grandfather was a chief and a spiritual leader on the Standing Rock Reservation. see https://www.fwii.net/m/blogpost?id=2429082%3ABlogPost%3A53585 for an article on the life of Phil Lane Sr. AISES staff could also validate the source, since the remembering his father post was written by Phil Lane Jr. There is information on the OSU Alumni Awards in 1992 for Distinguished Alumni for Phil Lane Sr. along with the alumni award for Forestry graduate from the same university. Are these sources good enough for you?!?!?!?!? Also, there are many different types of chiefs in Tribes today.

Claiming to be a Native American and its legitamcy should be left to the tribes they are enrolled in. Tribal membership will be the first to out any Indian Wannabe. So do not delete this page, actually his father should be added as honorable. The man designed the modern fish ladder seen in huge dams today. Storm Brise (talk) 10:33, 22 September 2023 (UTC)