Talk:Philibert de l'Orme

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Proposed rename

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain t/ c 19:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Philibert de l& → Philibert de L'Orme – Capitalization used by the Library of Congress (and other libraries); see here and here. --Relisted. jcc (tea and biscuits) 09:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Robert.Allen (talk) 02:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose loc.gov isn't a reliable source for capitalization, particularly in this case where entry starts from L, neither is viaf.org which offers 6 spellings. Covers of biographies on Amazon are Philibert de l'Orme with the exception of one book by Jean-Marie Perouse de Montclos which is Philibert De l'Orme, the L is sometimes but not often capitalized. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are correct, this name has a lot of variation in the literature, and there may not be a clear first choice. In fact, the Oxford Dictionary of Architecture and Landscape Architecture (2006 paperback) has an entry for him that begins like this: "Orme, Philibert de L', also given as Delorme, De l'Orme or de l'Orme". It's is not clear why they use the capital "L" for their first choice of name (or why they chose to index it under "O" instead of "L"). I note, however, that the following two sources also spell the name "Philibert de L'Orme": (1) the article (by V. Hoffmann) in The Grove Dictionary of Art (1998), vol. 19, p. 690; and (2) Louis Hautecoeur's Histoire de l'Architecture classique en France (1965), vol. 1, part 2, p. 23, etc (both of these index the name under "L".) --Robert.Allen (talk) 05:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Since the British Library and the Library of Congress, our two main English-speaking libraries, have agreed (per here) to index the name under "L", I would lean toward using the capital "L" in the name, although obviously we will never find a consensus in the sources (or other, foreign libraries). --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:43, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I also see that on closer examination you found that, although the cover of Philippe Potié's 1996 book does not capitalize the "L", the running text does, both for his father and for Philibert (for example, see p. 15). [As an aside, the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica (see here) uses the old spelling "Jehan" for his father. Of course, it's always a problem whether we should modernize name spellings or not, although I tend to favor not, unless the subject did so in their lifetime.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 18:20, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I found that Potié does, yes. But I wouldn't count British Library's cataloguing from l as meaning a capital L any more than LOC. Library cataloguing staff are not necessarily providing/following in running text print references when they make data input. An author may spend years judging how to spell the subject of a historical biography. A library cataloguer, who probably has no idea who the subject is, spends 10 seconds. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:08, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, we have plenty of other sources that use the capital "L", including the majority of the sources cited in this article (the Britannica and Catholic Encyclopedia and now Potié). In fact, it's a bit surprising that a lower case "l" was used for the title, since the only cited source (Philibert de l'Orme) which uses it also has "Delorme" and "de L'Orme". --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per IIO. As a cataloger, I strongly suspect library employees on both sides of the Atlantic would've been working off of the Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules, which in rule A.39C1 specifies that "prefixes consisting of an article or a contraction of an article and a preposition" should be capitalized in the names of French persons. So you're right to be skeptical in this case. The libraries' capitalization is essentially a style guide matter. --BDD (talk) 20:52, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Wrong Caption below drawing of the Château de Chenonceau
While situated within the famous Loire Valley region of France, the famous Château to which de l'Orme attached the famous bridge (and perhaps also the Long Gallery which was later built atop it- I'm not positive about that atm) is situated on the bank of the River Cher, and that is the river across which the bridge was built. 172.254.43.229 (talk) 18:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)