Talk:Philippe, Chevalier de Lorraine

Adding sexual orientation category to this biography may be a WP violation
We need reliable sources for category claims. It may well be that such sources are indeed available and you can list them in the article - but if not, then who is saying that these people fit the bill? Just deciding that you think they fit the description is Original Research - and that's not allowed here. I need to see a few reliable little blue number in each categorisation that links to a reference document that can be examined to confirm Basic Academic Rigour.

Categories that make allegations about sexuality – such as "closeted homosexuals" or "people suspected to be gay" – are not acceptable under any circumstances. If such a category is created, will be immediately deleted.

We need reliable sources for category claims. It may well be that such sources are indeed available and you can list them in the article - but if not, then who is saying that these people fit the bill? Just deciding that you think they fit the description is Original Research - and that's not allowed here. I need to see a few reliable little blue number in each categorisation that links to a reference document that can be examined to confirm Basic Academic rigour


 * Most people that are listed in the misleading LGBT categorization can also be connected with the following:
 * -Heteroflexibility -is a form of a sexual orientation or situational sexual behavior characterized by minimal homosexual activity despite a primarily heterosexual sexual :orientation that is considered to distinguish it from bisexuality.


 * -Pansexual- A person who is fluid in sexual orientation and/or gender or sex identity.


 * -Polyamory- is the practice of having multiple open, honest love relationships.


 * -Affectional orientation - To holders of this view, one's orientation is defined by whom one is predisposed to fall in love with, whether or not one desires that person sexually


 * -MSM- are male persons who engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex, regardless of how they identify themselves; many men choose not to (or cannot for other reasons) accept sexual identities of homosexual or bisexual.


 * -Situational sexual behaviour is sexual behavior of a kind that is different from that which the person normally exhibits, due to a social environment that in :some way permits, encourages, or compels those acts.


 * Many people change their sexual behavior depending on the situation or at different points in their life. For example, men and women in a university may engage in bisexual activities, but only in that environment. Experimentation of this sort is more common among adolescents (or just after), both male and female. Some colloquialisms for this trend include "heteroflexible", "BUG" (Bisexual Until Graduation), or "LUG" (Lesbian Until Graduation).


 * Sexual orientation
 * A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states, "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time". "There . . . [ was, as of 1995, ] essentially no research on the longitudinal stability of sexual orientation over the adult life span. . . . [ I ] t [ was ] . . . still an unanswered question whether . . . [ the ] measure [ of "the complex components of sexual orientation as differentiated from other aspects of sexual identity at one point in time" ] will predict future behavior or orientation. Certainly, it [ was ] . . . not a good predictor of past behavior and self-identity, given the developmental process common to most gay men and lesbians (i.e., denial of homosexual interests and heterosexual experimentation prior to the coming-out process)."


 * Kinsey scale
 * Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale, attempts to describe a person's sexual history or episodes of his or her sexual activity at a given time. Ituses a scale from 0, meaning exclusively heterosexual, to 6, meaning exclusively homosexual.

WP:CAT/R For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate. For example, while some sources have claimed that William Shakespeare was homosexual or bisexual, there is not a sufficient consensus among scholars to support categorising him as such. Similarly, a living person who is caught in a gay prostitution scandal, but continues to assert their heterosexuality, can not be categorised as gay. Categories that make allegations about sexuality – such as "closeted homosexuals" or "people suspected to be gay" – are not acceptable under any circumstances. If such a category is created, it should be immediately depopulated and deleted. Note that as similar categories of this type have actually been attempted in the past, they may be speedily deleted (as a G4) and do not require another debate at Categories for discussion.


 * Please observe the following


 * WP:SCICON The statement that all or most scholars hold a certain view requires a reliable source. Without it, opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material.


 * WP:FRINGE -A theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article


 * WP:EXCEPTIONAL - Exceptional claims require exceptional sources


 * WP:CHERRY fact picking. Instead of finding a balanced set of information about the subject,  a coatrack goes out of its way to find facts that support a particular bias. An appropriate response to a coatrack article is to  be bold and trim off excessive biased content

Sexual categorisation in lack of clear irrefutable evidence, confession is dishonest and from a historical point of view abhorrently misleading. Pgarret (talk) 13:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

1701 or 1702
This paragraph gives two different dates for his death:

"Monsieur died in 1701; by the end of his own life, he had lost his collection of furniture at the Palais-Royal (much of which was from the Palatinate) the money from the abbey but he did reconcile with Elizabeth-Charlotte. He died in 1702 aged roughly 59 from a fit of apoplexy, having lain with women the night before."

Which is it? --23.119.204.117 (talk) 20:47, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Unclear subjects
The way this article's text plays fast and loose with pronouns and proper names makes it difficult to follow any of the information presented. I get that same-named couples, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are the bane of biographers the world over. But that's all the more reason to be extra precise about who exactly you're referring to, when writing about them. Take this section, for example: Philippe was the second son of the Count and Countess of Harcourt. His father, Henri of Lorraine, was created the Count of Harcourt in 1605, aged 4. Henri was also the Grand Squire of France, a prestigious charge of the royal stables, the transport of the king and his ceremonial entourage. He was known as Monsieur le Grand. His mother, Marguerite-Philippe du Cambout, was a member of the old House of Cambout, who traced their ancestry back to the Sovereign Dukes of Brittany (11th century–1547).

His oldest brother, Louis, was Count of Armagnac and husband of Catherine de Neufville, the youngest daughter of Nicolas de Neufville de Villeroy, governor of a young Louis XIV. She was a sister of François de Neufville de Villeroy, the future governor of Louis XV.

Philippe was the titular Abbot of four abbeys: Saint-Père-en-Vallée in the Diocese of Chartres, Tiron, Saint-Benoît-sur-Loire and Saint-Jean-des-Vignes de Soissons. Known to be "as beautiful as an angel", Philippe became Monsieur's lover in 1658, while living at the Palais-Royal in Paris

Reasonable interpretations of the preceding text:
 * 1) Philippe de Lorraine was an Abbot
 * 2) Philippe d'Orleans (though never mentioned previously in this section) was an Abbot
 * 3) Mentions of "Monsieur" refer to Henri de Lorraine, who the text apparently claims "was known as Monsieur le Grand"
 * 4) Mentions of "Monsieur" refer to Louis de Lorraine, Philippe's older brother, if you happen to have caught the mention (relegated to a footnote) that "From 1643 till 1790 the post of Grand Squire was held by Henri of Lorraine's oldest male line descendants" and figure the name Monsieur le Grand followed the Grand Squire title.
 * 5) Philippe de Lorraine became his father's lover in 1658!?
 * 6) Philippe de Lorraine became his brother's lover in 1658!?
 * 7) If you make the leap (largely unjustified by the text) that Philippe de Lorraine is the one being referred to as "Monsieur", then Philippe de Lorraine became his own lover in 1658!?

What I assume is the correct interpretation, that Philippe d'Orleans became Philippe de Lorraine's lover in 1658, is actually the least obvious of several reasonable interpretations of the text as written. (And I still have not the slightest clue which Philippe was the Abbot.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 09:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)