Talk:Philippe Pétain

dutch version
the Dutch version has a much more complete and as far as i found out, a much better discussion, of Petains role in the First World War. If I find time I will provide a translation, though I am not a native speaker so my Duglish will need some correcting. Hugh van der Mandele, Harlingen, the Netherlands.

I removed the sentence from the world war one section that stated "His advocacy of a defensive strategy contributed to the construction of the Maginot Line." Petain was most definitely not an advocate of a defensive strategy, particularly during the interwar period. He imagined an initial "soaking up" of a German attack, followed by a vigorous counterattack, and assented to the Maginot line because lack of manpower, cash, and political will made maintaining sufficient troop strength impossible. His first conception of it was a series of "lighter but unbroken prepared battlefield" (Williams, 2005). Sort of a "kill trap idea- hardly an addiction to static defence. Yet another example of this article factual difficulties. p97dav45  19:54, 5 January 2006‎ (UTC)

New infobox image


We should change the lead image to this. It feels like more of a formal photograph, it’s clearer, it has better color balance, and it’s less messy around the edges. Thoughts? The Image Editor (talk) 18:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose: I think that the present one is actually better in every aspect you mentionned. And it is perhaps one of the most known portraying of Petain. ✦  Cocorico Polynésien  –  ✉  ✦  12:27, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree: It is a formal photograph, it’s clearer, it has better color balance, and it’s less messy around the edges. The current image has Pétain with almost a sneer, making it less suitable for our encyclopedia. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 15:18, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Unverified 'I am your leader' quotation removed
Four articles in en-wiki including this one have the quotation, "I am, and remain morally, your leader" (example from this article in context: "he maintained in a letter to the French people that 'I am, and remain morally, your leader'."). Examples include:
 * Philippe Pétain added in rev (973249661)
 * Sigmaringen enclave (diff)
 * Government of Vichy France (diff)
 * Liberation of France (diff)

All of these edits include content translated and adapted from the French article fr:Philippe Pétain, where the content containing Pétain's quotation in French was originally added 00:49, 27 August 2006 by French IP user in revision 9635959  (diff), which included the following text: Le 20 août 1944, le Maréchal fut enlevé et emmené contre son gré à Sigmaringen en Allemagne, où s'étaient réfugiés les dignitaires de son régime. Une fois de plus, il ne tenta pas de résister, et ne songea pas à démissionner, maintenant dans une lettre aux Français la fiction selon laquelle "je suis et demeure moralement votre chef."

This edit does not include any references, but in 2006 that was not unusual in en-wiki, and even less so in fr-wiki. In any case, I haven't been able to verify this quotation. There are three books I found that do contain the original French quotation word for word, but they date to 2018, 2019, and 2021, and there is surrounding content in those books that looks very similar to the surrounding context in the French article of 26 Aug. 2006; so much so, that either the books copied from the 2006 version of the French WP article, or the French article and the books are all based on a source earlier than 2006 that I have not been able to find in Google books or in Gallica.

Given this situation, I am removing this content from the four English articles listed. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:12, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. The three books that contain this quotation are Deloeuvre (2018) Lormier (2019), and Lormier (2021). These are all pretty similar to French Wikipedia 2006 (perma, diff). I see nothing in Google books prior to 2006, nor in Gallica. Some sources that could be checked for such a quotation, or a similar one are:
 * Rousso, Henry – Un château en Allemagne : Sigmaringen, 1944-1945 (1980) bnf
 * Schillemans, Gérard-Trinité – Philippe Pétain, le prisonnier de Sigmaringen (1965) bnf
 * Brissaud, André – Pétain à Sigmaringen (1944-1945) (1966) bnf
 * Rousso, Henry – Pétain et la fin de la collaboration : Sigmaringen, 1944-1945 (1984) bnf
 * Assouline, Pierre – Occupation : romans et biographies (2018) bnf
 * Kupferman, Fred – Le procès de Vichy : Pucheu, Pétain, Laval (2021) bnf
 * Lormier (2019) cites footnote 24 of the book for the quotation, but I can't see the footnote page. If someone had it, we could check. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:51, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Added a resource request at WP:RX. Mathglot (talk) 04:28, 1 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Given follow-up investigations, I think we can declare this question resolved: the citation is most likely a fraudulent invention of the IP who first added it at French Wikipedia in 2006. In any case, one cannot prove a negative, so if at some time in the future a legitimate citation for this supposed quotation turns up in a reliable source, please add it back into the article, ping me, and notify WT:WikiProject France. Just please beware of sources that are Wikipedia mirrors, circular references, and any later sources that repeat or summarize the unreliable comments at Deloeuvre (2018) or Lormier (2019) or (2021); a pre-2006 source would be best. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:00, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Marshal of France Title
This article states that, "After his conviction, the court stripped Pétain of all military ranks and honours including the distinction of Marshal of France." However, the article for the Marshal of France indicates (without a source) that the distinction of Marshal of France was not stripped due to it being granted as an Act of Parliament, and thus stripping it was outside of the jurisdiction of the court. Further down in this article, under his list of honors, "Marshal of France" is listed saying both that it was his sole award that was retained after his treason conviction, but that it was also withdrawn following his treason conviction. This doesn't make sense unless there is supposed to be more color indicating that Parliament had stripped him of this title.

I don't have access to the source that is cited by this article to confirm that it supports the claim that the title was stripped from him after his conviction, so I'm not going to make any changes to this article. But if anybody has access to that source, could they review it and adjust this article if necessary? At the very least, the listing of awards at the bottom should be more clear about whether or not he retained the distinction of Marshal of France. Ovenel (talk) 04:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * According to the French article he was subject to Indignité nationale which included the loss of all military ranks or distinctions, and the French article on Marshal of France also has him being deprived of the rank or title. DuncanHill (talk) 01:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I have raised this interesting and important point at Reference desk/Humanities. DuncanHill (talk) 11:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I remember noticing this as well some time ago, and started to look into it, but I don't recall anymore what I found. I *think* I found sources in disagreement, but I don't remember for sure, now, and should have tagged it at the time. Step one should be: check the sources again, and if they really are in disagreement, then start by adding the dubious tag to both, with a reason param linking the other, and very briefly stating the disagreement, and with param 1 of the dubious tag pointing to this discussion. (If they're not in disagreement, then obviously just fix the wrong one.) Mathglot (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Also note that his gravestone bears the title "Marechal de France". This suggests that he retained it. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * At the same time, or step two if you like, is that a resource request should be issued for existing source Varaut-1995, which is the source listed in the article before all the edit-warring on this point began without referring to its content. To request access to a particular book or resource you cannot access, please go to Resource request. Mathglot (talk) 19:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I have been able to read most of the relevant chapter in google books preview. I found no explicit claim that he lost the title of Marshal. And the author keeps referring to "le Maréchal" afterwards. I've looked at a number of books at internet archive as well. None of them was explicit about whether or not he retained the title. But people kept addressing him as Marshal, he was buried in his Marshal's uniform (although the French government apparently objected to this) and his gravestone bears the title. I found no evidence that any separate action was taken to strip him of his title. If he was stripped of the title, it must almost certainly been by the verdict. The verdict was simply (leaving out the reasoning):
 * So it seems to come down to the question of whether Indignité nationale affects the title or not.
 * -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:11, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's a good narrowing of the question, but as Wikipedia editors, we cannot make that call. If we can't find a source that clearly states it one way or the other, we should remove the statement entirely. Mathglot (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've tagged the claim as dubious, and linked this discussion. Mathglot (talk) 02:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've tagged the claim as dubious, and linked this discussion. Mathglot (talk) 02:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Edit-warring and verifiability
The question of whether Pétain was or wasn't stripped of his "Maréchal de France" has been the object of slow edit-warring for at least several months. At 23:36 on 24 May 2023 attempted to settle this question by adding this cairn.info url in rev. 1156852454 referring to the Varaut (1995) article, but the warring has continued, because the Varaut article on cairn requires university or other access. Le Petit Chat, can you please access the cairn resource again, and add a quote param to the footnote in section, right after the words, "...including the distinction of Marshal of France", which supports your edit that he was stripped of "Marshal of France" ? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Notified at their French UTP, in case they have notifications off. Mathglot (talk) 02:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "La déchéance des droits civiques et la confiscation des biens fut acquise. L’indignité nationale fit perdre au Maréchal son grade et ses décorations. La dégradation publique proposée par Stibbe fut repoussée à la majorité, au grand soulagement des magistrats." Le Petit Chat (talk) 11:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The way I understand it "Maréchal" is neither a "grade"/"rank", nor a "décoration"/"decoration", but a "distinction"/"distinction". So I would not consider this an explicit confirmation that he lost the distinction of "Maréchal". -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed, Random; and thank you, for adding that quotation. Afaic, that settles it: Petain was not stripped of his title of "Marshal"; or to be very explicit about it policy-wise: we have no reliable source that claims that he was. I have removed the claim from the article, and am issuing here and now this formal WP:CHALLENGE:
 * Any alteration of the article to include an assertion that Pétain was stripped of 'Marshal' "must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports&#91;b&#93; the material". Failure to do so will result in removal of the content, and may result in warnings.
 * Note that "reliable sources" does not include anything found at Wikipedia. Thanks all, Mathglot (talk) 23:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry for my mistake, you are right, Maréchal is not a rank or a decoration but a title. -- Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that the answer is almost certainly no, but cannot currently cite all of the reasons why I say this. French wikipedia contradicts itself on this point and I have spent as much time trawling through BNF and Gallica and Légifrance as I am willing to put into this point.
 * But here is an explanation I believe to be correct. The title of Maréchal is historic and was revived after World War I to honor Pétain and Foch. Historically one became a Maréchal through legislation, but after World War I it was awarded by the President of France through a decree. That's the part I can't find a cite for, although it my defense it's a rather obscure point. But here is why it matters: It seems that whether by decree or by legislation, the title is awarded by enacting a LAW and presumably it would take another law to remove it. That's the important part, and here is the part I am sure about: French judges cannot make law; it's an important difference between the civil and common law systems On reflection, I am not certain that the various legal databases of the French government go as far back as 1918, because I put a fair amount of effort into trying to find the decree that made him a Maréchal. Hope that helps somebody. The short answer is that degradation would probably have stripped him of any public office, but that is not what "Maréchal" was. And yes, I saw sources that referred to him by that title even when he was in exile Elinruby (talk) 20:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * may know more Elinruby (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Fascinating discussion, but I’m afraid I’m not familiar with the intricacies of French law. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * However, I have found this article in Foreign Policy: « Macron Finds the Immoral Way to Remember World War I », which discusses Pétain's legacy, and gives this : « After a postwar tribunal condemned Pétain to death, de Gaulle commuted his sentence to life imprisonment. And while Pétain was stripped of nearly all his titles and honors, he was allowed to keep the title of marshal of France. ». The article is written by David A. Bell, professor of history at Princeton, so seems a reliable source. https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/09/macron-finds-the-immoral-way-to-remember-world-war-i/#:~:text=After%20a%20postwar%20tribunal%20condemned,title%20of%20marshal%20of%20France. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 21:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "The authorities allowed him to be described on the death certificate as 'Philippe Pétain, Marshal of France' rather than ‘Philippe Pétain, without profession’, as originally intended." I don't think this proves anything, but an interesting tidbit. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you both. Bell's Foreign Policy article is pretty definitive that he kept the title, right? The gravestone is certainly supporting detail. Dégradation, that stripping that Bell is talking about, involves loss of the rights of citizenship, to vote or run for office, I am fairly certain. I know Mathglot and I discussed it before but I do not remember if either of us wrote or translated an article about it.
 * Part of the fun of the post-war period is that they set up a whole separate court system for collaborator and war crimes trials. I believe a French court tried Petain (vs. Nuremberg proceeding} since De Gaulle commuted the death sentence as the court asked him to. Also, one of the sources emphasizes that it was a criminal trial. I initially thought it must have been a military matter, but as noted above, it was just an honor, like Poet-Laureate. And received with the enactment of a law, even though theoretically it also made him the commander-in-chief of the French Army. Heh. Just there for the flourishes, I guess, like the Governor-General or for that matter the British royal family. That sentence would have put him out of office if he had been prime minister or president or mayor or dogcatcher, however. That is *my* best shot at this.
 * The thing with Macron btw has to do with an anniversary and the fact that Pétain (l'héros de Verdun) received the title of Maréchal because he was a genuine war hero). So some were saying that he deserves to be honoured as such and others think that senile at the time or not, war hero or not, anyone who was in office when little children were rounded up at Vel d'Hiv and put on a train for an internment camp does not need to be honored in any way at all. Elinruby (talk) 22:18, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There's also a new book out that may cast light on the issue: Julian Jackson, France on Trial: The Case of Marshal Pétain.  I don't have access to it, but it may cast some light on the effect of the court's verdict.  The review in the Economist mentions that it was a civil court with a special jury of 24:  12 veterans of WWI, and 12 politicians from before Vichy. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * huh, a civil court? I will take a look at that again. Julian Jackson is the current authority on Vichy though, according to something I just wrote for a different article. I wonder if they mean administrative. but I expect Jackson and the Economist got it reight for at least some definition of "got it right". That's not really a question; I'll figure it out if it looks like I need to for the other article I am working on. There were special courts for collaborators but I suspect he would have had special handling if only for security reasons.
 * Elinruby (talk) 22:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it was the same High Court that tried the other collaborators, like Laval. I meant "civil" in the sense of "non-military":  not a court martial. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 23:53, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I see. I was thinking of the giy who was going to jail for selling butter outside the official system> Tribunal national, something like that? Neither the English nor the French wikipedia seems to have an article on it, in any event. I also read yours to mean "not criminal" so thank you for clarifing for me. I also found [|this], which talks about the prohibition on retroactive law and how that's limited to criminal law... not done reading it yet. I have been mumbling about a French admin law glossary, or I would have wandered off by now. Elinruby (talk) 00:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The French Wikipedia has some information about the Haute Cour, see fr:Haute_Cour_(France) and fr:%C3%89puration_%C3%A0_la_Lib%C3%A9ration_en_France. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:04, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Statesman?
[copied from a User talk page]

Someone added "and statesman" to this lede paragraph: "Henri Philippe Benoni Omer Pétain (/peɪˈtæ̃/, French: [filip petɛ̃]); 24 April 1856 – 23 July 1951) was a French military officer and statesman who commanded the French Army in World War I and became the head of the collaborationist regime of Vichy France, from 1940 to 1944, during World War II."

Philippe Pétain was more than a military officer, but — unless "statesman" is generic and non-judgemental in Wikipedia (is Hitler or Stalin or Mussolini or Idi Amin a "statesman"?) — is there a better-focussed and less-loaded term for his rôle as Chef de l'État Français ? Or is any term needed when the lede sentence ends, "and became the head of the collaborationist regime of Vichy France" ?

—— Shakescene (talk) 02:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Worthwhile question... For the time being, I've reverted it, because whatever the right word is, 'statesman' is certainly not it. Mathglot (talk) 03:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

—— Shakescene (talk) 03:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Sword and shield theory
Neither this article nor Vichy France mention the sword and shield theory. This was an important analysis of Petain's behavior during Vichy, and it rates inclusion in both. Many think the theory is rubbish now, but it had enormous influence at the time. Mathglot (talk) 01:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)