Talk:Philippine mythology

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Merging Philippine mythical creatures
I definitely vote against merging Philippine mythical creatures into Philippine mythology, as there is much material on Creatures in Philippine Mythology which cannot be discussed in depth in a general discussion of Philippine Mythology. Instead, I propose that the Philippine Mythology article needs to be expanded, as the emphasis on legendary creatures or even Gods, is unwarranted. I believe Philippine Mythology should instead cover the unique characteristics of Filipino Mythology. I've been wanting to work on this project for a while, but I have not yet find the time. I am, on the other hand, slowly gathering resources so I can do so.

Organization
Soliciting comments. I'm wondering how this page can best be reorganized to reflect the whole scope of Philippine Mythology. At the moment, some of the things I'm bothered about include

"Higher" and "Lower" Mythology
- There is a rather apparent line between "Higher Myths" including
 * the creation myths
 * the origin myths
 * and stories about
 * Bathala and his co-archetypes such as Kabunian, Gugurang, etc,
 * Maria Makiling,
 * Maria Sinokuan,
 * Bernardo Carpio,
 * etc.

- And the creatures of lower mythology currently listed in the pantheon such as
 * the tikbalang,
 * the aswang,
 * the kapre,
 * etc.

But I'm not sure how to organize this in light of the whole article yet.

Regional Mythologies
See note below

Evolution of Pinoy Mythology
I wonder if the page should also reflect the evolution of Philippine Mythology. I will have to read Nick Joaquin's Culture and History again to look for relevant insights.

Things I wonder about under this include:


 * Methods of Transmission of the Mythology
 * Oral Transmission
 * Transmission through physical artifacts
 * Documented Mythology
 * Modern Myths (not necessarily but inclusive of Filipino Urban Myths)
 * Aswang in the City
 * Shapeshifting snake in mall ventilation ducts

Introduction
I think it's not quite fair to say "Philippine mythology, and folklore are being studied as part of the curriculum of Philippine Psychology", as that implies that Philippine mythology is not being discussed outside of this context. Philippine mythology stands on its own as a field of study. Perhaps a different subheading should discuss how Philippine mythology is studied as a part of Philippine psychology? For now, I've deleted the references to Philippine Psychology, but below, in itals for everybody's consideration, is the text that was removed.Alternativity 10:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

''(Philippine mythology, and folklore )...are being studied as part of the curriculum of Philippine Psychology... Many attribute psychological problems to these superstitions and considered significant for psychologists in understanding the Filipino psyche.''

Also, while mythology does indeed "include[] a collection of tales and superstitions about magical creatures and entities," these magical creatures and entities are not the defining characteristic of mythology, which is why I suggest a broader definition... but one I hope to work on at a later date. :-) Alternativity 18:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Mumu and Mubaiya
My filipino friend says she believes in the mumu and the mubaiya. What are those monsters ???
 * a 'mumu' or 'momo' is generally used as a generic term to describe a 'ghost' or 'monster'. children use it to describe any scary being. i am not familiar with a 'mubaiya', however. it may be a creature confined to a narrow ethnic pantheon; the philippines is quite ethnically diverse. where is your friend from exactly in the philippines? - Kguirnela 13:06, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

i am not sure where my friend is from. She says that mubaiya is a creature that is human by day, but at night sheds its skin and can have wings that fly. It flies around looking for humans to eat at night.

Work to do
There is a lot of good material in this article, but the introduction is rather POV.

Er... I'm not sure what POV means. But I do agree there's a lot to be done here. Alternativity 10:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Impakto
What is it? Is it a spirit that causes temporary madness? Is it supposed to originate from the soil?--Jondel 12:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This should really be added.--Jondel 08:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Unbaptised children, Angels that are neither good nor bad
I read legends about this as a child. Does anybody know about this? I read that in Philippine mythical creatures were angels that broke of when there was an angelic war. Some were good, others became demons, while the mythical creatures were angels that were neither in Philippine mythology. Any info?--Jondel 12:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"Regional Mythologies"
Philippine mythology of course, is a catch-all phraze that covers the mythology of many ethnicities. As Scott points out, it is rather unfair to disucuss these mythologies under one banner as if they were one and the same when that banner did not exist when those mythologies were originated.

Perhaps we should separate this article into regional subheadings and then "incubate" discussions of the individual ethnic mythologies and then evolve them into separate articles when they develop sufficient substance to merit an article?

The discussion of "Igorot beliefs" suggested below could be discussed as a secondary subheading under this "regional mythologies" subheading. Alternativity 10:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Igorot beliefs
Would it be apt to add here some of the Igorot people's pre-Christian beliefs(I say opre-Christian because according to the igorotglobal.com, approximately 90% of the present-day Igorots have embraced Christianity)? Like that of Kabunian, Lumawig(son of Kabunian who is more or less like a half mortal, half god), and other dieties? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.9.55.205 (talk) 09:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

In Popular Culture
Should we have a section for how Philippine mythology is covered by Popular culture? That would include references to media like Mulawin, Etheria, Whilce Portacio's Stone, and Arnold Arre's The Mythology Class. Alternativity 10:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

=== 90 % have embraced christianity? that's to much, just go to the sloter house in baguio and ask the volume of black pigs being purchased for ritual purposes. Try visiting mambunung (native priests) and most likely you'll have to wait your turn along with some rich and influential "modern" igorots. Why do u think dogs are still being served with gusto if indeed 90% of igorots converted to christianity? and that's not even including those tribes adjacent to cagayan valley who insist their not to be called "igorots" but by their own specific tribe. your source is thus grossly in accurate.

Archetype Meanings In the individual pantheon entries
Can we add psychological archetype meanings to the individual entries for creatures of lower mythology (tikbalang, aswang, etc)? Such as the Tikbalang being a reflection of the transition to horse-riding culture? I'm not sure where to find sources for this, but I know this is all fairly common knowledge under Phillippine psychology?

Weasel Words
Here are acouple of statements using weasel words WP:WEASEL because they use the words maybe or probably.

Idianalé (Idianalo, Ideale) is the ancient Tagalogs goddess of works and good actions. Other legends say that she is also a goddess of death, and it is possible that she and Hukloban are one goddess.

Bathala: He is possibly worshiped by the Visayans.

- Getonyourfeet 19:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Direct Quote needs citation
Citing_sources

"Bathala, the source of all creations, in Your hands lie Maniliw the witch, and from your chest comes out the creator Lulid Amo that can make darkness darker than the night"

If it is a translation, it still needs to be attributed or it is original research. WP:OR

- Getonyourfeet 19:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Malyari is he a god or demigod?
A god is full blood god. A demigod is part god and part mortal. Wasn't Hercules a demigod? Fix! LAWL!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Getonyourfeet (talk • contribs) 19:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

- Getonyourfeet 19:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Inaccuracy
Someone familiar with the subject matter please correct this statement take from the other gods section:

Kabunian, or Lumawig, is the Ifugao tribe supreme deity, where his palace is at the peak of Mount Pulag in the Northern Cordilleras. <-- This cannot be true because Mt. Pulag does not lie in the area of the Ifugaos.

— 6etonyourfeet\t\c 18:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

+++ CORRECTION to "Inaccuracy"- Mt. Pulag range is mostly within Benguet Province but is large enough to be within the Province of Ifugao. Its peak is within the Municipality of Kabayan, Benguet. However we in Bokod and Kabayan also believe Kabunian (we don't use Lumawig) also resides in Pulag, like our own version of Mt. Olympus. Ifugaos near Pulag share some similar beliefs with us. Furthermore, it is always shared by our elders that our ancestors originated in what is now part of Ifugao. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talakaru (talk • contribs) 12:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Notes on organization of Philippine mythology articles

 * Suggestion: Please see Talk:Philippine mythology/to do box above. - Dragonbite 18:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Naming
I find the title inappropriate. It should be changed to Phil. Traditional Religions. Myhtology refers only to stories, not to the complete thing (beliefs, practises etc.). Also the use of the term superstition throughout th article is not scientific: in a scientific presentation all beliefs and practises are treated without any evalutative connotation.Aldrasto11 (talk) 07:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Kekek - The visayan myth
The Kekek is a Woman witch with wings which all she has to do is look for pregnant woman and to abort the baby and or to kill the infant, that is why mostly of the pregnant woman has to put a black clothes or wrap around their body especially during the night to avoid to be seen by the Kekek. Aside from black clothes they will also put a thorns around their hous to prevent the Kekek of coming at the walls of the House.

This practice are mostly in the remote Areas in Visayan regions.

By: Roy D. Mangaron217.165.164.63 (talk) 06:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

The visayan myths
The Kekek is a Woman witch with wings which all she has to do is look for pregnant woman and to abort the baby and or to kill the infant by zipping the blood using her stretched tongue, that is why mostly of the pregnant woman has to put a black clothes or wrap around their body especially during the night to avoid to be seen by the Kekek. Aside from black clothes they will also put a thorns around their house to prevent the Kekek of coming at the walls of the House.
 * Kekek

This practice are mostly in the remote Areas in Visayan regions.

Agta or Kapre - a Giant Humanoid being, Black and Hairy which has a supernatural power that live in the forest or the large trees, they have the ability to visible and to be invisible and to trick and confused Humans who will pass in their Territory.
 * Agta

Dwende - An average of a foot tall human like supernatural creatures, mostly friendly and some are not. They live in Puntod ( a small hard pile of soil like and Igloo shape, clean at the top with no plant grows)They will help to their chosen human friend, some of them became rich. Some of the Dwendes will disturb people living in the house, making noise inside the house during the night and people living there cannot sleep because of the noise, during the morning they saw their things scattered, some says they found inserted T-short on the Column of the house.
 * Dwende

Higante - A huge or giant human or humanoid being.
 * Higante

Tikbalang - A Half Horse-Half Human, horse body with the four legs and half Human they brings bow and arrow, will will trick and scares human.
 * Tikbalang

Encanto or Fairy - A very beautiful lady,with flawless white skin, blond hair,dressed like a princess but they don't have Philtrum, this is the sign if you will encounter a fairy. They will take you to the beautiful city, which you can not see in this world and invite you to stay there and they share their foods which taste differently all they wants is just you do not have to ask for a Salt when you like to eat. If you will keep on refusing this ended you woke up at the Forest ground and some on the top of the Trees.
 * Encanto

That is why some says when you are in their world, those vast forest will be converted into Cities where they stays.

Once upon a time somewhere in the Visayan areas, they constructed a river bridge for the local to pass through, but the bridge was always collapse because of the rain and flood, so they decided to construct it higher, same thing happened again, they construct the bridge higher and higher but they wondered why the bridge still destroyed and later the locals found out that the Ship of the Encantos or the Fairies loaded with different products specially Cacao passes through it from the mountain to the sea, They saw the ship with white men with no Philtrum the Encantos, so later they constructed the brigde just a little higher of the water level at normal weather condition and the bridge did not damage again. Later they knew that when there be will flood its the time for the ship to sail on the river.

Wakwak - An old woman witch with fangs, capable of traveling so fast by floating with something, associated with a nocturnal bird for her spy and to search for their victim to zip a blood. The bird will trick the victim with a sound whakwhak, when it is loud the witch still far away but it sound a little like far, meaning the witch is near you. The victim has bite on the nick with mark of fangs and scratched wounds.
 * Wakwak

Kataw or Serina - A beautiful half woman and a half fish, some save human from drowning, when she chooses You as a friend she gives you pearls and treasures to make you a rich, but if they are abused They will bring catastrophes like flood and storm resulted to drowning of anybody.
 * Kataw

Okoy - An ugly male humanoids with fins believed living in deep of the oceans, associated with bad character, usually they are the responsible for somebody drowned into the deep that passes on their Territory.
 * Okoy

Manti-anak – A reincarnated soul of a baby died together with the mother in her womb with a devil character, manti-anak is a supernatural entity that will scares and murder people in the house during the night and resulted to somebody death especially to the babies.
 * Manti-anak

A demonic monster creature with a huge mouth and penis. It is believe to be found in Bicol Region, Visayas and Mindanao. According to the tale it misguides it's women victim into a secluded area. In order to escape the women will have to take off her clothes, reverse it, then wears it again, so that the Tambaloslos can see her breast and this makes the penis of Tambaloslos to grow(erect) bigger and bigger until it covers his face and eyes until the Tambaloslos cannot see a thing. The victim then can have a chance to run away.
 * Tambaloslos


 * There is an expression of our elders especially from the people of Bohol “Tambaloslos kang daku” which means you are a big Tambaloslos, this word means worthless person


 * Tale of the Ermitanyo

One day somebody roaming at the Forest, he saw a very old man kneeling at the ground,has a long hair and even his beard touches at the ground. vine plants has already climbing up on his body,in his very old age he so tired and asking God to end his life. Our ancestors says people before has a long life.


 * Tale of the Giant Snake (Higanting Bitin)

One day a man roaming at the forest, when he was tired he rested on the top of the log which full of grasses and mosses, suddenly noticed that the Log is moving, he wants to find out so he walked on the top of log going to the tip, upon reaching, he was shocked he saw a huge head of the snake and he found out that the log he tought, is a giant snake which can not crawl anymore because of its size.

Santilmo - a ball of fire that can hover, believe a ghost from the person that died and pours blood in the area where it can be seen.
 * Santilmo


 * One morning my father told us that last night he saw a Santilmo, when were sleeping he noticed a light glowing from the outside of our house, then he gets up and look at it through a small gap of the wooden wall and he saw a floating small ball of fire hovering at our backyard.

Mambabarang - An old female which is practicing whichcraft, capable of cursing anybody by pinning into a doll with the hair or clothes of somebody she wants to curse.
 * Mambabarang


 * Tale of the floating Coffin

One night two men walking going to their house on a trail in the middle of the forest, while walking, suddenly the wind blows, plant and trees shaken, bamboos bended blocking on the trail, when they passed beyond those bended bamboos that covering their sight, they got scared when they saw the coffin on the trail, they were escaping on it and continue walking, but they noticed at their back that there was something luminous, when they were looking at it, they saw the coffin is floating and following them, they were so scared and they run as much they can.


 * This coffin story believe that is related to the work of the Encantos or abduction done by fairies, when they will abduct a human they will return it as if a dead in a coffin with the tricked and transformed body from the banana trunk, that is why there were a practice when they can found a coffin with the dead missing member or found a returned dead of a missing member, they will not burry it right away they will observe it first within 3 to 4 days if that dead body inside the coffin will transform into a banana trunk , if it will transform back into a banana trunk then the immediate family will demand to return  the missing someone from the Encantos by making a noise to the suspected tree where the Encantos live mostly Balite Trees.


 * I really witness this practice before, when two young ladies my relatives told by their parents to get a Tankong (a vegetable greeny vine plant in wet areas usually used to feed the domesticated animals) in the Basakan ( ricefield). It happend that they did not return 'til the next morning, so it was suspected that they were abducted by the Encantos, that day they gather and bring empty containers encircling the big trees near the rice field and making noise and demanding for the return of these two young ladies. They were happy that the ladies were returned but they found out that these girls went to other place instead of returning home.


 * So the very point of this event was the people specially from bohol ( cause this time mostly participated were people and my relatives from bohol) are still has a strong belief to these supernatural creatures.

Manananggal – A woman alike, has the ability to detach her upper body and fly without the lower part with hanging intestine, when she flies her intestine revolving causes a humming sound. She always thirsty for human blood. She finds hard to re-attach her body if somebody found the other half and put ashes on it.
 * Manananggal

Ungo - A Human alike predator with a scary face that is always hungry for human flesh and associated with devil spirit.
 * Ungo

Balbal - A Human alike predator with fangs that is always thirsty for human blood and associated with devil spirit.
 * Balbal

Impakto - Is a devil, or anybody possessed by the devil spirit who brings bad omen.
 * Impakto

Yawa - is the highest of all form of evil.
 * Yawa

Bathala - the creator (old language)
 * Bathala

Ginoo or Dios - God the most high, The ultimate creator.
 * Ginoo or Dios

From our ancestors handed down oral stories.

By: Roy D. Mangaron 217.165.163.244 (talk) 03:40, 22 April 2012 (UTC)217.165.164.161 (talk) 12:46, 24 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello, Mr. Mangaron! This looks very interesting.  Would you know if there's any print or online sources we can use for citations? Because that's the only way we'll be able to add this information to the page, following the policies under Citing_sources. - Alternativity (talk) 14:23, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't really know if you can search on internet or printed documents regarding this stories. I will just explain on how I get these informations.

I am a Visaya, my father came from Bohol Island and my mother came from Cebu Island, their families migrated to Davao region in the Island of Mindanao, then to Maragusan Valley now part of comval province, the first time my father went that place by walking on the trail of the mountains for more than a day just to reach there, that is a very isolated place that time, we don't have even electricity until the mid of my high school life. I was born in 1969 and I grow up there, during my childhood, as part of anybody past time with the family inside the house, meeting with neighbors and relatives, these are the usual stories I've heard even talking with playmates. So the sources are my Father, Aunties, Uncles, relatives, Neighbors, elders, and even playmates, that is why I called it the handed down oral stories. Others are the usual belief and practice of the Visayans.

Since I found this Topic on this site, this time, I just wanted to share these stories before it will gone from the mind of anybody.

I believe younger generations, not much reached of these stories because they are awake and enjoy with this present hightech society.

Thanks for the chance of sharing.

Roy D. Mangaron86.99.20.120 (talk) 19:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)2.49.9.244 (talk) 16:31, 28 April 2012 (UTC)2.49.9.244 (talk) 17:48, 28 April 2012 (UTC)2.49.9.244 (talk) 17:57, 28 April 2012 (UTC)2.51.10.46 (talk) 13:35, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 18:33, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

merge proposal
I propose to merge the Tagalismo section of Tagalog people to this article. It is too detailed and extensive for the scope of the Tagalog people article as per WP:UNDUE, and there is already a great overlap with this article. --  P 1 9 9  ✉ 14:06, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Philippine mythology
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Philippine mythology's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "mccoy": From Anito:  From Bakunawa:  From Babaylan:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:17, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Ifugao house Bale of Igorot.jpg
 * Philippine mummies.jpg
 * Torogan House carvings.jpg

Added "original research" tag
I've added the "original research" tag as it appears that most of the claims written in this article suffer from lack of reliable sources written in the academic sphere, aggravated with over-reliance in self-published blog entries (e.g. the "Aswang Project" and perhaps many others). This resulted in propagation of hoaxes such as the supposed romance between Bulan and Sidapa, which the Aswang project itself recently declared as hoax. In light of these new revelations, I suggest everyone to avoid adding new information unless it is properly sourced from a reputable journal or book, and avoid as much as possible the reliance on self-published websites as sources of information about Philippine mythology. Stricnina (talk) 12:35, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I have also deleted the unsourced claims like the ones reminiscent of the tired Black Legend trope, such as the alleged deliberate suppression of caracoa boats or the pre-Hispanic Philippine writing scripts like Baybayin. Stricnina (talk) 13:44, 1 September 2019 (UTC)


 * There's a user named (most likely the same 120.28.57.166 judging from both the user's obsession to this Wiki article and to the related ones) who is struggling with the basic procedures of Wikipedia, trying to undermine my inline tags like "verification needed", spamming the same citations from the same website (notably "The Aswang Project" and the "Myths of the Philippines; Gaverza", just look at the footnotes on how many times he just cited those two sources), and removing the templates like "Original Research" without proper justification. Although I have yet to verify this, I am afraid that he might also be copy-and-pasting some of the contents of those sources in the Wiki article. I suggest someone control it. Stricnina (talk) 22:19, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

About the word "Anitism"
I did this revision, after reading the cited sources. This is because in some of the cited sources, anitism is not equated to Philippine "indigenous religion". Example quotes from cited sources (notice the comma between the "traditional indigenous religion", "anitism" and "respect for nature", interpretable that those three are different concepts):

"Traditional indigenous religion, anitism (from the word anito or ancestral god), and respect for nature, are deeply held in various aspects of life."

- Sylvia H. Guerrero

Another source mentions that the term "anitism" is "not in current usage" and it is apparently a term limited to discussion of the primitive Tagalog religion, and judging from the content of the Wiki entry, the word "anitism" might not be suitable to use when it comes to the indigenous religions of other ethnic groups scattered throughout the archipelago.

"The word anitism, or the Hispano-Filipino form anitismo, though not in current usage, has been defined in Retana's glossary as "Asociación de ideas religiosas que tiene por fundamento el culto a los anitos," citing Isabelo de los Reyes, who further defines "anitos" as "almas de los antepasados". Fernando Blumentritt characterizes primitive Tagalog religion as continual invocation and adoration of the anitos, the souls or spirits of their ancestors. From its original meaning of "ancestral spirit", the word anito acquired throughout the Philippines the general meaning "spirit.""

- Stephen K. Hislop

I don't completely disagree with the use of "anitism", but at the current status of provided sources, I believe we need a more detailed source discussing the name anitism in relation to "traditional indigenous religion", "Philippine mythology" and the different belief systems of other ethnic groups. A clarification through other sources is probably necessary (of course anyone here can prove me wrong if there are already sources out there properly defining what anitism is in relation to the other belief systems in the Philippines). Stricnina (talk) 18:46, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

About "religion" and "mythology", or why I am deleting the "Concept of beliefs" section
As per this revision, the subsection "Concept of beliefs" is still there. The whole subsection not only lacks verifiable sources (and when the inline tag "verification needed" is added, the user keeps deleting them), it also makes a narrative of a dichotomy between religion and mythology. Take for instance this quote:

"These Western notions and beliefs have noted that the world religions, notably Christianity, were considered ‘religions’, while non-world religions such as folk religions (including the many indigenous ethnic religions in the Philippines, comprehensively called as Anitism) were reduced in the view of the West as mere ‘mythologies’, even though these ‘myths’ are still being believed by specific communities and despite the beliefs in perceived world religions are ‘myths’ themselves."

The subsection continues with claims that "The terms “religion” and “mythology” go hand-in-hand as both terms are actually the same thing, but their usage differs only for the people who use them" and "A religious story is a ‘holy scripture’ to a believer and a ‘myth’ to someone of another culture or belief system”, thus creating a narrative of the dichotomy between religion and mythology, with the implication that "mythology" has some sort of negative connotation. However, I want to align this Wiki entry to how the page Religion and mythology defined both terms:

"Mythology is the main component of Religion. It refers to systems of concepts that are of high importance to a certain community, making statements concerning the supernatural or sacred. Religion is the broader term, besides mythological system, it includes ritual. A given mythology is almost always associated with a certain religion such as Greek mythology with Ancient Greek religion. Disconnected from its religious system, a myth may lose its immediate relevance to the community and evolve—away from sacred importance—into a legend or folktale."

Religion is thus composed of mythology and ritual, and mythology is defined in that other Wiki page as a component of religion. Therefore, I have decided to delete the "Concept of beliefs" subsection because not only the provided sources are either non-verifiable (judging from the continuous deletion of the "verification needed" tag by, as you can see here), but also because it ignores this other point of view regarding the relationship of mythology and religion, thus breaking the dichotomy narrative set up by whoever wrote the "Concept of beliefs" subsection. I am therefore deleting the aforementioned subsection (or section). Stricnina (talk) 19:12, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

No point for a list of minor deities
To, , , , , and all other Wikipedia contributors who left their footprint in this page:

The Wiki entry has become excessively long, with information that are better to be branched out in other more suitable Wikipedia entries. For example, I don't see the necessity of compiling the list of all possible deities that have ever existed in Philippine mythology when we already have a more suitable page called Deities of Philippine mythology that has the exact same purpose. The compilation of all deities should be moved to that page. The purpose of the main article should be to only introduce the readers to the topic and to guide readers as to what are the other existent Wiki entries related to Philippine mythology are there. More detailed explanation regarding certain topics should be moved in more relevant pages. Thus, I have decided to remove the entire section regarding the "minor deities" of pre-colonial Philippines, since there is already an entire page dedicated to that topic.

This decision can also be a measure to avoid non-constructive edits in the future, since that section seemed to be one of the most frequently edited of the Philippine Mythology page and I can't understand the necessity or the constructiveness of any of those edits in this Wiki page when there are other more suitable Wiki pages out there that have the very same function. Those edits of adding more and more and more and more deities do not improve this page whatsoever, it only makes this page unnecessary long, hence why I added the Template:Overly detailed tag.

Please leave comments here if you do not disagree with this decision (or if you agree, I appreciate some "I agree" voice, and perhaps also further suggestions as to how to improve this page). Stricnina (talk) 15:57, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed, as such I've been trying to revert the article to before this sock started in with their disruptive edit wars. Lupin VII (talk) 22:53, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Dear , thank you for the support. I have deleted the section regarding the "Other Deities of Philippine mythology" while leaving behind the link to the proper Wiki article. I also feel relieved now that the edit warring will finally stop. I might also document my encounters with the various accounts of Xiang09/IvatanWiki, as I have already done in the talk page of Tambayan Philippines, perhaps by updating the one I have written earlier it with some newer details regarding the recent disruptive edits with the newest account named IvatanWiki. Also, this uncollaborative disruptive editing has its origins on September 1st, when the unregistered IP address 120.28.57.166 started undoing my edits (I have tried to warn him in the talk page about possible devolving to edit warring), and then when he finally registered as Xiang09, when he continued undoing edits. Stricnina (talk) 06:48, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. Although I wonder if there's a way to make sure that all the information absent in Deities of Philippine mythology has been transferred there first, before we delete them here? - Koakaulana (talk) 07:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Dear, I will add the deities mentioned in the Philippine mythology minor deities section that are not mentioned in Deities of Philippine mythology. In fact, I have recently added some Ifugao deities and Bisayan deities there. It might take some time but I'll do the best I can. Stricnina (talk) 08:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the recent edits
I have more or less expressed my concerns regarding the recent edits on the talk page of. My concern lies primarily on the edits regarding the interpretation of the Carolyn Brewer source, which can be read by clicking this link. His edits are about deleting my following statement:

"These evidences, together with the fact that there were no written accounts of female sex/male gender identification amongst the women who exercised authority within the spiritual sphere, prove that spiritual potency was not dependent upon the identification with a neuter "third" sex/gender space, but rather on the identification with the feminine - whether the biological sex was female or male"

- Me

And replacing it with this (which I believe is not a proper use of the Brewer paper, since the Brewer paper itself has properly contrasted the Andaya thesis about the importance of gender dualism for the access of the spiritual world. The user uses a statement of Andaya while citing a source that doesn't really agree with the Andaya model):

"In Brewer's research, Andaya notes a theoretical overview of examples from "throughout the Asian region" in which the male does not conform to 'the more conventional sexual and gender dualism of society.' Andaya states, "the third sex/gender group is regarded as being neither male nor female or being a composite of both. It is their ambiguous status which locates them beyond the more conventional sexual and gender dualism of society and becomes a sign associated with the primal creative force.""

- IvatanWiki

His only reply to my concerns are: "The statement provided by Andaya and Brewer in the old and new versions were the same. Only the wordings were modified with personal connotations, the reason why the actual statements were inputted instead. Sources have been cited. No source that says otherwise was inputted."

He also keeps using a primary source (as explained in the talk page) in order to claim that:

"Although this imbalance may have not always been the case in all ethnic groups. Castano (1895) states that the people of Bicol would hold a thanksgiving ritual called atang that was "presided" by an "effeminate" priest called an asog. His female counterpart, called a baliana, assisted him and led the women in singing what was called the soraki, in honor of Gugurang."

- IvatanWiki

However, it is not clear how the cited primary source supports the statement that "this imbalance may have not always been the case". Again, the user did not give a satisfactory explanation to his continuous reversal of my edits. Stricnina (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
 * what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 3,000 bytes, the statement above (from the tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for Legobot to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Requests for comment/Society, sports, and culture. The RfC will also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 08:12, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Dear , the article has been reverted to its version before the edits of IvatanWiki, one of the sockpuppet accounts of, so I am removing the RfC template as it is not needed anymore (the problem has already been solved). I'm sorry for the very detailed post above (since it was my first time using the RfC template) and I'll write a more concise and neutral statement next time I resort to RfC. Stricnina (talk) 08:33, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 08:42, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

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