Talk:Phoenicians

''I (Infrogmation) cut the following from the main article; while I can't speak to all the points, I know enough to say that the points relating to ancient Mesoamerica are wildly inaccurate. ''

Pliny recorded that once Uba Numidian king intended to establish a stock farm of purple Murex in the west, 12,000 kilometres distant from Cadiz, apparently in Central America.

There are very colourful Maya paintings that depict naked men belonging to a different race, with the drawings of Murex shells on the coast. They are all captives with reddish hair, quite white-skinned and circumcised. The latter detail must have referred to the members of a Semitic expedition, because Indians did not practice the circumcision. Almost identical statues have been found in Mexico, Sardinia and Susa (Iran). All the three of them represent the same naked woman with the same hairstyle, wearing a similarly braided veil, all lifting up her breasts: they must have belonged to the Phoenician goddess Ishtar. The first one can be seen in the Museo Archeologico Nazionale in Cagliari, or in the book of Parrot-Chehab-Moscati (1977). The second one is a wooden figure in the Museo Nacional, Mexico, see the book of Z.A. Simon (1984: 95). Another little statuatte was part of the great Maya Exhibition that had visited Toronto (Royal Ontario Museum) and other cities. It has a greenish or turquise color, depicting a man holding a lion-cub, in the style of Gilgamesh.

We have a similar situation regarding the the early mentioning of the potato's name in the Near East. The Treasure Trove, or the Origin of the Tribes, a very ancient Syriac text translated by Carl Bezold, mentions an edible root called khamotz. This word seems to be the equivalent of the Mexican (Nahuatl) word kamotl or camote. The Spaniards may have borrowed it as camote, similarly to the words 'coyotl,' 'ocelotl' or 'chocol-atl,' now coyote, ocelot and chocolate. These "coincidences" and "out-of-place" findings can be explained easily by the travels of the Phoenician mariners. There are many authorities now who have admit these possibilities of pre-columbian transatlantic contacts in their scholarly publications. However, others have still consider all evidence as mere coincidence.

There were reports, printed in some books before 1945, regarding many rock inscriptions on the eastern shores of South America. According to those claims, the inscriptions have been deciphered in Phoenician: they contained information and directions how to reach gold mines in the interior. However, these vague news have not been confirmed yet by experts on epigraphy. One of these Phoenician texts is quite well-known from modern books, regarding the short inscription of some castaway mariners in the reign of Badesir, son of Ithobaal or Jethbaal.


 * There was a series of similar stuff put in by te same anon poster at the same time. I worked through a fair bit of it, but there is more to go - as it seems you are discovering! Keep up the good work. Tannin 21:40 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

Moved from main article: -

Phoenician chronology
The date for the foundation of Carthage is not agreed upon by all sources. They are ranging between 900 to 800 BCE, mainly round figures, indicating approximate dates. The alleged foundation of Carthage was 814 BCE. This may come from a misunderstanding, a relative date before Rome's foundation. This is the birthdate of Carthage's constitution, according to Cicero, The Republic, II, XVII-XXX.

Iulius Solinus, a Roman historian recorded that the destruction of Carthage in 146 BCE took place after 737 years of its existence, Carthago post annos 737 quam fuerat extructa exciditur. Also see Reese's Cyclopaedia under Carthage, or Rollin's Ancient History Volume I, Rollin's Roman History, Volumes III-V, or Ancient Universal History, Volumes XV-XVI. The date 146 BCE is not debated by any scholar. Therefore, reckoning with 737 full years, Carthage was founded in 883 or 884 BCE. Josephus Flavius Contra Apionem (Against Apion), Book I, 17-18 contains an important list of Phoenician rulers, including some high priests of Baal.

Josephus Flavius tells that the whole time from the reign of Hirom (Hiram), till the building of Carthage, amounts to the sum of 155 years and 8 months. Since then the temple was built at Jerusalem in the twelfth year of the reign of Hirom, there were from the building of the temple, until the building of Carthage, one hundred forty-three years and eight months. The subtracting of Josephus works well, at least in this simple exercise. This sort of confirmation may indicate the possibility that he has got the total as a first-hand information, and the reader should not be bothered if other details of the list would not add up so perfectly. According to this, King Solomon started to build the temple in 1029 BCE, probably at the beginning of the 12th year after Hiram's accession. Hiram reigned 34 years (1040-1006 BCE), and died at the age of 53. Therefore, he was still alive twenty years after the beginning of Solomon's fourth year, and 1 Kings 9: 10-14 is right. The above list of Josephus confirms that Carthage was founded, or perhaps re-founded and enlarged, in 883 or 884 BCE. This took place in the seventh year after Pygmalion's accession, by his escaping sister Elissa, as Josephus tells. His father Mettinus (Matgenus or Mutgo, the priest of Baal, who is Mattan in 2 Kings 11: 18) and Queen Athaliah were slain in 891 or 890 BCE. Therefore, the Bible and the non-Christian Josephus who has cited these from Dius and Menander of Ephesus, agree accurately. Josephus, Wars VI, X.1 claims that David settled in Jerusalem 477 years and 6 months before its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar. The latter date is traditionally 587 BCE, therefore Josephus has placed that event at the beginning of 1064 BCE. It is well-known that, after this, David was king for 33 years in Jerusalem, till 1031. (Before his death, he appointed Solomon as king in 1032 BCE.)

A masterpiece entitled Ogygia of O'Flaherty (1685: 83-85) correctly lists several key dates of world history. From the Fall of Troy, or Troja excisae (2767 Anno Mundi) to the Milesian (Gaidelic) conquest (A.M. 2934) we can calculate 167 years of difference, so they correspond to 1183/2 and 1016/5 BCE, accordingly. From the latter he claims 133 years to Carthage's reconstruction, and 263 years to Varro's date for the foundation of Rome. Also, 1016 less 133 years yield 883 again, and 1016 minus 263 years give us the traditional 753 BCE. Considering all these, the foundation of Carthage can be placed in 883 BCE.

- For further explanation, please see Talk:Carthage. - Hephaestos 05:27 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)