Talk:Phoenix (1980 video game)

Joystick
I recently found an old Phoenix acarde in a good condition, produced by an italien vendor. It has a one-axis-joystick mounted to the front panel. I edited the article accordingly and will deliever a photo as soon as I cleaned it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.153.75.159 (talk) 15:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

TI Calcs
Phenoix for TI Calcs is not the actual game. Retro Remakes are much different, in terms of game play and stuff. Don't ask, it just is not right.

Intro Music
What is the intro music that plays when you start a game? Is it a known classical piece? It's familiar... Taniwha (talk) 21:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Developer
The game was first developed by Amstar Electronics and subsequently licensed by Centuri and Taito. See the references in the article, or consult the MAWS database (original Amstar version ; Centuri versions 1 and 2 ), and observe the screenshots (Amstar, Centuri 1 , and Centuri 2 ); also see this flyer from Centuri (page 1, page 2; the game is "mfg. under license from Amstar Electronics Corp." Spacepotato (talk) 23:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I think you are relying too much on websites like mameworld and arcade-history, neither of which are listed as reliable sources at WP:VG/RS. However, the third source you added, Racing the beam: the Atari Video computer system, certainly meets the WP:RS standards since it's published by the MIT Press, so there's really no need for mameworld or arcade-history. Regards, Jagged 85 (talk) 06:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think Racing the Beam is actually a good source for this under the circumstances because the game is only mentioned in passing a few times in the book proper and the reference to Amstar is merely in a list of games near the end of the book that was probably compiled using the mameworld/arcade-history data in the first place. I have found a mention in the December 24, 1980 issue of the Miami News, however, of Centuri licensing the game from Amstar (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HrYlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vvMFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5992,789319&dq=amstar-electronics&hl=en).  That seems pretty solid to me. Indrian (talk) 09:48, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Going back to this, interviews with staff at Centuri and other publications have stated that game was developed in Japan. The Japanese book cited in the article states a different licensor in Japan to Taito and I haven't found any contemporary source stating that they created the game, let alone created it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:53, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Actual developer
Surely this is Tehkan? They developed the sequel, which is definitely a sequel as it shares assets and has very similar sprite design. Tehkan Phoenixes do exist, as shown here and here. They would also most definitely be a "smaller Japanese developer" at this point. 72.11.34.147 (talk) 11:55, 13 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Might as well follow up with this. Outside that one, one-off line from the previous version of the article and a newspapers source, the developer only seems to be some Japanese dev. From the original research provided, the answer is "possibly?" but nobody has seemed to find anything conclusive. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:50, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Inaccurate arcade sounds in Taito Legends PlayStation 2 port
Manually created low quality sounds seem to be present in the Taito Legends PlayStation 2 port of Phoenix, even though the short background music starting the first screen (each time around) seems arcade-correct. This means players are not getting a true experience of the game with overly loud/irritating sounds for everything except the player ship shots and player ship explosion when hit by an enemy shot or rammed. This apparently escaped (i.e., a missed bug that made it into the release) three different video game entities including Taito, Empire, and Sega (as the publisher). It may indicate they didn't check using an actual Phoenix machine (Centuri or Taito distributed) and just used an emulation source? 76.122.221.218 (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Re-write
I tried to re-write the article with cleaned up sources and other content. If there was anything really missing from the last one, please re-add it, but I think i've clarified most of the valuable information from the old version into the current article. Look forward to anyone's comments/etc. on this. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Pleiades and Phoenix are unconnected
Responded to a comment on my talk page about this, but figured I better cover it here for the rest of the class. In short, the Taito game Phoenix and the Tehkan game Pleiades are not officially connected in any way. Hard to be an official sequel when the creator/manufacturer are two completely different companies! I imagine Pleiades was inspired at least in part by Phoenix, but with no developer input on that point, it is not worth going down that road.

Now, the one, single thing these two games do share is a U.S. manufacturer, Centuri. So that does beg the very reasonable question "because they share similarities and Phoenix was a hit, did Centuri market Pleiades as a sequel?" The answer is no. The Centuri flyers for Pleiades do not mention Phoenix at all. Neither do the ads for the game placed in various trade publications. As for the announcements for the game in Replay and Play Meter, here is the Replay announcement in its entirety. The Play Meter announcement is similar:

Centuri, Inc. has entered into a licensing agreement with Tehkan International Corp. to manufacture 'Pleiades,' a fast-paced multi-phased video space game. This marks the second licensing agreement between Centuri and the Japan-based firm.

"The decision to enter into the agreement was twofold," said Centuri President Ed Miller. "First, our initial licensing agreement with Tehkan was very positive and secondly the income figures from Japan on 'Pleiades' were outstanding."

Under the terms of the agreement, Centuri has exclusive manufacturing rights to 'Pleiades' in upright, cocktail table, and new "elite" models for North and South America and Europe, excluding the United Kingdom and Germany.

"Like 'Phoenix,' 'Pleiades' continues the progressive screen concept which has become increasingly popular in the world-wide market," said Centuri's Ivan Rothstein, Vice President of Sales. "Players perceive the game as four different games and this contributes to high earnings and longevity of income. The name 'Pleiades' also adds a mystical quality to the game," Rothstein added. "It comes from Greek mythology."

As the story goes, the seven daughters of Atlas were transformed into a group of stars. Known as "Pleiades," the star group is readily visible in the for the game begins with "Pleiades" brilliantly glittering over "earth city."

"Of course," said Rothstein, "the game is loaded with current state of the art space features. A player even has a chance to simulate a space shuttle type landing."

The first of 'Pleiades' four frames begins with an alien attack on the earth city. The players' efforts to thwart the attack are hindered by barrier blocks constantly being constructed by the alien creatures. Once the city is safe, the player's craft takes off into space to combat the flying space monsters. When the screen is cleared of the attackers, the player faces a dramatic space battleship and more attacking aliens. Mission accomplished, the player must then return to control base by docking the spacecraft. Success with this delicate journey gives the player the chance to begin another round.

"We've incorporated all of the hardware features that are making the name 'Centuri' synonymous with high quality,' said Rothstein. Deliveries of the game began in mid-June.

So no, it was never marketed as a sequel, just another game, like Phoenix, that had multiple stages.

But wait, you say. There are books like Brett Weiss's review book from 2011 that say it is a sequel! Well yes, but we have to remember that an anonymous editor added the claim that Pleiades was a sequel to Phoenix to this article all the way back in March 2006. The assertion was, of course, unsourced. So to demonstrate Pleiades is actually a sequel, that book of reviews is just not going to cut through the citogenesis problem. Unless an official statement or marketing materials from Centuri explicitly indicating Pleiades is a sequel to Phoenix emerges, this is nothing more than original research and almost certainly inaccurate information. Indrian (talk) 00:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)


 * You have no backing what Weiss is it not citing and we are only going by material you have available on hand. Other publications and content could be available and you also assume that Phoenix was developed by a a different company, but we have no source of who developed Phoenix anyways. I do agree we can connect the dots here and make that conclusion, but still, I have provided my source and I do not see anything convincing otherwise. Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The assignment is quite simple. All you need to do is find one source, just one, contemporaneous to the events in question or quoting someone who was there at the time, that calls this game a sequel. A book that has 1-2 paragraph blurbs on hundreds of games and does not cite any sources is not particularly reliable for a teeny tiny fact on one of them. But a good solid article from 1981 or 1982?  Yeah, that would be an actual source. In the meantime, a couple more sources:


 * Vending Times, July 1981: Word for word the exact same announcement article as Replay, which definitely indicates it is Centuri's own press release. So that is a third coin-op publication announcing the game that does not call it a sequel. As Cash Box did not write anything about the game, that means all 3 coin-op trades that covered it's release, complete with quotes from the head of marketing and president of Centuri, have not identified it as a sequel. These are the guys that actually know what is going on, not 2011 Mr. Weiss covering hundreds of games in one fell swoop.


 * While Mr. Weiss is in no special position to know the status of Phoenix and Pleiades, Masumi Akagi certainly is, seeing as how he was the editor of Game Machine, Japan's premiere coin-op trade magazine, at the time, yet in his book-length history It Started From Pong he makes no mention of one being the sequel to the other. He just mentions that Tehkan released Pleiades in Japan and includes it in a litany of games Centuri licensed from various Japanese companies for release in the United States.


 * So once again, we have yet to see a single shred of evidence that Pleiades was a sequel to anything (and no, an author saying it in passing without citation or corroboration is not evidence). I look forward to any actual evidence you or anyone else has that anyone at Tehkan or Centuri considered this game a sequel to Phoenix or presented it to distributors, operators, or the general public as such. Indrian (talk) 05:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I think you asking for reference to Phoenix in trades is a complicated one. Game reception and publication back then mostly discussed financial, popularity and other deals (which explains why the items you wrote above sound like press releases rather than journalism, which is fine, there is detail in them too which is useful). There are very little critical review exists from these periods you request, and I believe you know that so I'm finding it really weird you are asking me to find something. It was really hard to even find any contemporary article saying Phoenix was made in Japan. I also don't think your arguments really valid (not sure why Weiss is not valid, he's written several books on the topic from various publishers, contributed to AllGame, etc.) while Akagi doesn't seem to make a reference to anything being a sequel in his book I've referred too, he's more keen on release and companies. So That's false equivalence to say Akagi's book of reference data is less valuable than Weiss.
 * As these games aren't specifically narrative, I have found information that at least connects that Centuri's Pleiades at least is very similar in gameplay to Phoenix, perhaps it would be good to add Pleiades to that list of games which is in the article with the source i've found (in Retro Gamer). I'm not too obsessed with it being a sequel, but even if it is or isn't, these aren't really "narrative" games, so it does not really matter too much and nobody is going to be confused or misled. If I ever find more information regarding it being a sequel, I can re-add it, but ehh, nobody seems to be rushing to discuss Phoenix. I'm actually disappointed there isn't much about how many clones of Phoenix there are, because that kind of show how popular this relatively forgotten game really was. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to show some proof of how i'm trying to take it seriously, i found many sources saying Phoenix was the first game with a boss battle. That's not the case, there was some other (somewhat lesser) japanese shooter game with boss-like things released maybe a month prior, surely well after Phoenix was completed (I doubt things were constructed in less than a month to just "add a boss" from what I know about game development from this era). It's also not even the first game with a boss as early computer RPGs in the 1970s appear to have had "boss" characters (don't ask which, as I don't recall at the moment!) I managed to find a source that I think clarifies the issues best saying it was "one of the first" and that other games have since borrowed the even boss like details. I kind of wish the Racing the Beam book went a bit more into this, because they make a really interesting point that it wasn't just a boss, but that it's also a unique enemy character that has a "weak point" that many other boss battles would have in the future. Anyways, the writing of video game history is still not the best. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Just to clarify with anyone who has read this, Indrian and I have come to a conclusion on my talk page. It doesn't seem important if it's a direct sequel or not (as these games aren't specifically narrative) and there isn't a lot of discussion on the topic. We've basically lumped it into games that were influenced by it. I've also removed the Space Fire Bird references as that game appears to have come out before Phoenix. if anyone has any issues, feel free to edit or discuss here further. Andrzejbanas (talk) 07:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC)