Talk:Physician assistant/Archive 1

Thank you to Roadster
For removing your personal attack. However, removing Nephron's comments was inappropriate:
 * Roadster: Your comments are not constructive. Further, I do not think they are in the spirit of Wikipedia --please read WP:Etiquette and WP:Civility and sign your posts (see: WP:SIG). Nephron T|C 22:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

-THB 15:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

HOW MUCH DO PA'S GET PAID?

The Military PA
Added a link to the US Military's Interservice Physicians Assistant Program page. Will add a short section on Military PAs as time permits. Focus to be on the unique role PAs hold in the modern military, specificaly the expanded role in the US Military over the past 5 years as the 'First Line' trauma subject matter experts. If anyone has info on Military PA's in other countries and their role in treating soldiers and civilian populations, please let me know and I'll be sure to include it! -- Eric Bouchard 10:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Added 'The Military PA' section to main page. POV is very limited at this time, but I tried to highlight the differences in the practice of military PAs.  Also did not mention the program requirements or instruction to keep in context with the article and avoid taking to much space.  There are probably better ways to link statements than the bullet style used, but I'm still learning the hyperlinking style here. --Eric Bouchard 07:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed Links
Hi guys. I'm writting this article because I inserted a link to a site I think is very helpful and relevant to this article, but is removed by one "GoodDamon" as vandalism. I am aware of the linking rules and terms and I in no way think this site is vandalism. The information on the site is actually very helpful in scope of the article. I have applied to three PA schools now and interviewed for two. It wasn't until I started to prepare for my third interview that I ran across the website when looking for interview tips and a more personable website than a site that just states the same old facts. I think the site gave myself, and it seems others from the comments I have seen on the site, a real look at what to expect as a PA, what a PA is, and more importantly for me, application and interview tips from a student that is actually going through it. Like I said, I don't think this link should be removed because without it I wouldn't have gotten the help and information that other, textbook answer sites give. The link to the is www.lifeofapa.com A Day In The Life Of A PA. I hope this link can be added back.

Painformation (talk) 13:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Brandi

DO and MD in the lead
I think that it's inappropriate for the lead to refer to an entirely irrelevant (for this article) difference in the training and licensing of physicians in the United States. However, when I removed it, one editor reverted the change without any explanation. I'd like to hear from other editors: does anyone think that the distinction between DOs and MDs is important for this article? Does it actually have any difference at all for PAs? Does a PA, for example, do materially different work in a family practice setting or urgent care clinic if the supervising physician is an MD instead of a DO? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, there is no difference. I have removed that portion of the lead. Antelan talk  21:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree - it makes no difference to a PA whether his or her supervising doc is an MD or DO. My supervising doc is an MD, and my colleagues that work with DOs have the same duties.

However, as one of my former classmates put it, "My supervising doc [a DO] does a hellaciously good back and neck manipulation."

GMan552 (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * We should probably have a whole article about that. Actually, an article wouldn't do it justice. We need demonstrations! Antelan talk  22:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Title
Shouldn't the title of the article read Physician Assistant (vs. Physician assistant)?
 * Fixed Gtadoc 04:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope. Like airline stewardess, carpenter, or neurosurgeon this should not be capitalized as an occupation, but only as the title of an article. Does someone out there know how to (re)fix this. Sfahey (talk) 03:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Per the American Academy of Physician Assistants's own usage], this should be a lowercase title, "physician assistant." This is a description of a job, like attorney or accountant, not a proper noun. I will move the article to physician assistant. -- Zim Zala Bim talk  16:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Changed references and most links to in-line format
I changed these in order to properly document the references in this article, and to place them in their own section. Let me know what you think.

GMan552 (talk) 05:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"Clinical officers" in sub-Saharan Africa
User Ronns has provided interesting information regarding "clinical officers" - however, this links to his user page. I have suggested to him that he start a new article on clinical officers and place a link in this (PA) article to the new article. What do you all think?

GMan552 (talk) 21:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Length of study in the UK
The newly listed source says two years for the PgDip and two and a half (30 months) for the MSc. Is this right? Are there other programs? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Good experiences
Its unfortunate for Clamster5, but all the experineces i've had with PA's has been great. I work at a major medical center in Boston and I can't praise them enough! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peck10 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 29 October 2006


 * I have found them woefully undertrained. In the hospital they mostly do scut work that even the residents don't want to do. -THB 22:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Well THB, maybe in Australia that is your experience. Here in the USA they are very well educated and are a vital resource. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peck10 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 29 October 2006


 * Fortunately, there are no PAs in Australia. I must admit that not all PAs in the US are completely incompetent and they are useful to transport patients to radiology, do routine documentation, fetch supplies for the residents, and check vital signs. As long as they work under close supervision of physicians, the potential for harm is somewhat limited. -THB 03:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

What evidence can you supply that shows a lower level of training for a PA than that of a nurse? There are nurses with 2 year degrees, 4 year degrees, masters and doctorate level degrees. There are PA's at each of those levels as well. Check the malpractice statistics and you will find that on a per capita basis, physician assistants are successfully sued less often than physicians. Physician Assistants serve in the military and public health services and are often the first line of care for an injured servicemember--and make the difference between life and death, or keeping limbs! I believe you have used the wrong definition--those doing routine documentation, transporting patients, etc, are typically called MEDICAL assistants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadster (talk • contribs) 07:44, 31 October 2006

--They get sued less than physicians because they deal with the simpler problems-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrSandman (talk • contribs) 01:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * No, I'm not confused at all about PAs and Medical Assistants, not at all. And personally, I don't want someone with a two or four year PA degree (or even a Masters, for that matter) running amok claiming to "practice medicine" on me or anyone I care about. (Something nurses don't claim to do.) I suppose they are useful in the military as well as for doing the scut work in the hospital. -THB 16:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Nurse practioners claim to practice medicine, and many hope to do so without supervision! Gtadoc 02:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC) No, a PA is not a physician, but then neither is a nurse. Its simply a matter of economics that we can't afford to have a MD do everything anymore. Gtadoc 02:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * THB still hasn't supplied any evidence to support his claim that shows a lower level of training compared with a nurse.

It is quite clear that THB is uneducated about that of which you speak. PAs do practice medicine and are educated based on the medical school model and do not pretend to be physicians. They embrace the relationship with their precepting physician and are very skilled clinicians (I would hunch that THB is a NP hmm...) Most PAs worked in medicine (paramedics, RTs, and/or RNs) before becoming PAs and most PA programs require prior medical experience, so before painting things in broad strokes, educate yourself. PAs are not MDs and do not claim to be. However their level of autonomy is based on thier clinical experiences and skill set. So no, you are not going to have a PA fresh out of school doing your cut down and harvesting your Saphenous Vein for a CABG, but you will have a PA with experience doing it, and following and managing you in the ICU. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.0.5 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 31 October 2006)


 * I am a Physician Assistant. Says so on my diploma and my license. Yes, I graduated with an Associate of Science [this was 26 years ago!] but I was required to have 2 years of college work to get in, and had 140 semester hours credit when I graduated. I did later finish a BS, now having around 197 semester hours. I've long joked I won't go after a Master's Degree unless there's money in it for me. The vast majority of programs are now on the graduate level, and more accomplish that each year. I had 8 years of medical experience, civilian and Navy, before PA school.
 * I am held to the SAME PROFESSIONAL STANDARD OF PERFORMANCE AS A PHYSICIAN. (caps intentional) As a matter of fact, PAs are often actually held to a higher standard, as a physician believes that even if (s)he cuts corners, no one but another physician can criticise the work. As an example, in the psychiatric hospital where I have worked over 20 years, the physical examination documentation before PAs began performing them was pathetic. Physicians would customarily just write "NML' on every line down the form. These physical exams were often completed within 2 minutes. It takes me about 1/2 hour to perform an exam on an uncomplicated patient from greeting to filing of the paperwork. Now, tell me that I am poorly trained, probably incompetent, and fit only for patient transport!
 * Nurses have more training??
 * Though the ANA (American Nursing Association) has declared the basic credential of an RN is now the BSN, there are 4-5 ADNs graduating for every BSN in my state! My hospital has to run an orientation program for newly graduated nurses. I may be old school, but I thought they were taught how to do the work in nursing training!
 * I consult with my SPs (supervising physicians) several times daily, and take great comfort in having them backing me up! If they get in trouble with a patient, they have to dig _themselves_ out.
 * I take pride in taking good care of patients and feel sorrow when I cannot help a patient reach wellness.
 * I agree that THB should read WP:Etiquette and WP:Civility.
 * Bob Franks, Physician Assistant, Goldsboro, NC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob2 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, if you had carefully read what was written, the etiquette/civility statement was directed at someone else. Thank you for the anecdote supporting my contention that PAs are useful for doing routine documentation. -THB 05:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think the back and forth is very productive. Perhaps the place for this would be an article called conflicits between medical professionals or medical hierarchy.  It would be interesting to have a hierarchy like this one. Nephron  T|C 22:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I've read your edit of the employment section and it is nothing but obtuse and confusing to anyone who reads it. Angels on the head of a pin. As I've said before, you relish debating the minutia. I doubt Dr. Stead saw Hollywood as "underserved" if there were not enough plastic surgeons to tighten the sagging wrinkles but you want to expand the definition to include this minutia. You are trying to confuse the true reasoning behind the formation of the PA profession, and for reasons I cannot fathom. It's such a shame that so many people are still unaware about the profession and the capabilities of a PA. Just a few weeks a ago i read an article on yahoo.com about PA's being the number 1 profession to have!Vatchdog 18:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

In Spanish...
I'm removing this line. I don't see it as adding anything to the article and if a person wants to know what it is in Spanish can simply check the Spanish article's title. 翔太 「Shouta:talk」 17:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's been undone without a reason given in the edit summary. I'll remove it again. At least give some justification please. :) 翔太 「Shouta:talk」 04:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Malpractice insurance
I've removed this reference because I can't view the source without paying to view it. All I can see is the title. Additionally, the article cited is from 2001. Any fees would have changed in the seven years since and any information it contains is dated. That source could be saying anything. If you want to keep it in, find a source that can be reviewed by anyone who seeks to edit this article.News4a2 (talk) 20:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy to have you provide more recent information, but the fact that a source isn't free does not make it wrong. Non-free sources are allowed on Wikipedia.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:28, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Rural numbers
News4a2,

Thanks for adding another source, but the census numbers you cite don't use the same methodology and therefore aren't comparable. The survey uses the USDA Economic Research Service's Rural-Urban Continuum Codes to determine the number of PAs practicing in rural counties. Therefore the only accurate comparison is to the number of people living in the same list of counties (that is, those counties with the same RUCC codes).

The list you cited didn't use counties as its basis; it uses urban boundaries set by the US census office, and counts as 'rural' everyone that lives outside a designated urban area -- even if they only live ten feet outside a major urban area. For example, it probably would have counted as "rural" a high school classmate of mine that actually lived across the street from a 300-bed hospital (the street in question was the city's legal border). She would have been considered 'urban' in the RUCC system, because the county line was another five and a half miles north of her home. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually "methodology" means the "study of methods" not "method." I assume you mean "... don't use the same method." It's a common faux pas. I see you're back to your bureaucratic argumentative ways. The only solution, as I see it then, is the deletion of your 17% number. Because from my perspective, that 17% isn't comparable with the one and only correct number of 21%.  However, I'll compromise and leave your 17% there because it provides _balance_.News4a2 (talk) 19:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The article should move to the 2008 report, which was released more than two months ago. The numbers don't change:  both the 2007 and 2008 reports summarize the important figure thusly:  "Metropolitan Status of Work Site: Fifteen percent of respondents work in counties that are non-metropolitan."
 * The 2008 (like many, if not all, of the previous reports) clearly names the source of its numbers: "Zip Code of primary work site was linked to County Rural-Urban Continuum Code from the Area Resource File obtained through the Bureau of Health Professions, US-DHHS."  If you want to see how many people live in the same places served by these people, you need to use the same system.  Your approach is like comparing "People living in New England" to "People living in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island, but nobody from southern Connecticut, because half of them work in New York City anyway."  Using system A for one set of numbers and an unrelated system B for the other set of numbers doesn't compare apples to apples. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, News4a2, we need to compare apples to apples. We need to use the same method of determining population in both the how-many-PAs study and also the how-many-patients study.  We cannot use the RUCC county system for counting PAs and switch to any other system for counting patients just to get a "better" number (that is, one that was chosen to promote your point of view).
 * I'm not interested in an edit war. Would you like to get a third opinion?  Are you interested in dispute resolution?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:02, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

As someone who claims not to want to start an edit war, you certainly have taken actions like you _own_ this page. I disagree with your methods and your numbers and your sources. Accept the compromise. There is always more than one interpretation of the numbers. Providing a range provides balance. You apparently can't see the forest for the trees and, again, are bogged down in the minutia.News4a2 (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not want to have an apples-to-oranges comparison in this article. I will not accept your proposed "compromise" because I believe it to be flawed (as explained above).  Do you have a preference for how this gets resolved?
 * As for "owning" the article: Since Wednesday, the only edit I've made was to remove an out of date template that was accidentally replaced by another editor.  You, on the other hand, have been rather busily reverting Nomad2u001's changes without any effort at discussing your concerns with him (or her).  WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:26, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, Nomad is you logged in on another name ... or a tag team buddy of yours. I've already posted a note to you/it with no response. You/it deleted whole sections without comments under the Nomad name. Re: the 21% ... you've made comments and I disagree. The sources and numbers I used are just as accurate. You are not the only one who has read the book "How to Lie with Statistics." However, I note that although I disagree with your numbers _I_ have always left them in while you are a wholesale contribution deleter with anything you disagree with.News4a2 (talk) 12:47, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You can file a Request for Check User if you'd like to find out on your own. It's possible that they will require a more substantial level of justification than "all accounts that oppose my personal view must be operated by the same person, because surely no two people in the world would ever disagree with me on the same point", but I don't know:  I've never filed an RFCU.
 * If you have any interest in taking my word for it: Every single interaction I've ever had with Nomad2u001 is posted on his/her talk page, and therefore available for public inspection.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:25, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Which numbers should be used
After reviewing the wording and statistical content of the the three reports at the heart of this controversy:
 * 1) http://www.aapa.org/research/07census-content.html#3.13 - 2007 AAPA census, table 3.13 (not table 3.4)
 * 2) http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/Rurality/RuralUrbCon/ - Measuring Rurality: Rural-Urban Continuum Codes
 * 3) http://www.nemw.org/poprural.htm - Rural Population as a Percent of State Total By State, 2000

The first source, a survey of Physician Assistants, includes among other data a classification of respondents by "Metropolitan Status and Degree of Rurality of County of Primary Work Site". Nine Degree-of-Rurality categories are grouped as three metro and six non-metro classifications. A total of 15% of respondents have primary workplaces in non-metro counties. The second source also deals with rural population at the county level and apparently uses the same nine categories for classifying counties as metro and non-metro. Using the population figures given, approximately 17% of the 2000 US population falls into counties classified as non-metro. This is a close match to the first report. The third source classifies the US population as "rural" and "non-rural" (not "metro" and "non-metro". Also, it does not appear that this report is derived from US census data that defines metropolitan statistical areas in a manner that does not always match county boundaries.  This is not a good match to the data in the first report.  Using the third source would imply a greater rural population to PA ratio than than is warranted.  If the first source had categorized PA work locations as rural/non-rural using the same criteria as is used in the third report, I would expect that the stated number and percentage of PAs working in a "rural" location would be somewhat larger that the number and percentage working in a "non-metro" location.

Based on the above review, I am of the opinion that the second reference above is the best source to use with the first, and references to the third should be removed. On this issue, I agree with WhatamIdoing above and the edits by Nomad2u001 regarding the edits to the Employment section. That said, I see no reason given for the removal by Nomad2u001 of additions to the History of the profession section. I therefore believe these changes should remain until such a reason is provided.

-- Tcncv (talk) 02:39, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for taking the time to look into this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:25, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree, on several levels. First, AAPA doesn't cite that it uses the numbers proposed by WhatamIdoing, so it is left up to interpretation. And interpretation requires a range for balance. I suspect they used numbers totally different from her source and totally different from my source. I've never deleted her numbers, just added a second number as a range while she has proposed there is only one number and it's hers. Tough. :P If there was a cite on the AAPA page specifically pointing to the reference proposed by her highness, the grand deleter, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But there isn't. She's just flapping her gums under the old adage "If you can't fool them with facts, baffle them with BS." Well, I'm not a naive college freshman. I figure if you can't say it succinctly it's balderdash, and she can't. So I'm not going to side with her numbers and neither should anyone else who seeks knowledge. It's the difference between accuracy and precision. You include your data and sources as part of peer review and the AAPA survey doesn't. She's guessing, you're guessing and I'm guessing. So the range is appropriate for balance. Secondly, the "Metropolitan Status and Degree of Rurality of County of Primary Work Site" section that you mention on the AAPA has a little asterisk after the title, meaning the data are presented with conditions, notes, etc., but the little asterisk isn't referenced anywhere. So what's it mean? Why's it there? You've come to conclusions without full information, again, something that lends itself to a range.News4a2 (talk) 13:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Both the 2006 and the 2008 surveys state, immediately under the matching table, "Zip Code of primary work site was linked to County Rural-Urban Continuum Code from the Area Resource File obtained through the Bureau of Health Professions, US-DHHS." How do you interpret this sentence if it does not mean that they are using the RUCC coding system?
 * Additionally, your preferred source specifically does not use counties, so if you're going to edit-war it in, would you mind not misrepresenting your source as being based on counties? 21% of the US population does not live in counties that are designated as non-metropolitan.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:20, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Your error is exactly as you state "How do you interpret this sentence if it does not mean that they are using the RUCC coding system?" I don't interpret anything because interpreting is guessing. And guessing is not scholarly research. As I have said, had the AAPA placed a link to the numbers you're using, this discussion never would exist in the first place. But it didn't. And anything else is pure speculation on your part, mine and any other. So, if you want to put numbers, a range is more appropriate. Of course, you don't "win" the argument, so obviously you won't agree.News4a2 (talk) 22:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

New text
I propose updating the text to use the 2008 census, like this:"In the 2008 AAPA census, 56 percent of responding PAs worked in physicians' offices or clinics and 24 percent were employed by hospitals. The remainder were employed in public health clinics, nursing homes, schools, prisons, home health care agencies, and the United States Department of Veterans Affairs. Fifteen percent of responding PAs work in counties classified as non-metropolitan communities by Economic Research Service of the United States Department of Agriculture; approximately 17% of the US population resides in these counties."

Aside from News4a2's ongoing push for equating census boundaries with counties, are there any objections to using the more recent information? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Suggestion re proposed paragraph: Delete the word 'communities'. The sentence reads OK without it.  Its inclusion adds nothing but yet another geographical / political / social boundary. - Hordaland (talk) 03:02, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

History of the profession
Twice now I have removed an assertion that schools "have shifted from this street-experience focus of Dr. Stead and now recruit students with high GPAs and limited "hands-on" patient care experience", which is only sourced by linking to numerous schools' admissions websites. This is inappropriate as it is original research - an editor is surmising what a school's admission decisions are based only on that editor's reading of their website. Who knows what goes on behind their doors. Unless an independent and reliable source can be found to support this assertion, it should not be re-inserted. -- Zim Zala Bim talk  14:15, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. It's also silly to base this "profession-wide" assertion on the stats produced by some of the most prestigious universities in the country.  Admissions to (for example) any program at Duke University have become much more competitive in the last half century.  It's not specific to PA programs.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Surprise, her highness agreeing! Pardon me for placing _sourced_ information in an article as opposed to your POV. "Original research" would be things like a survey I completed, interviews I'd done, etc. You two either don't know what "original research" is or are just anti-anything I've placed here. These sources would be appropriate in any scholarly research; they are therefore appropriate here. Again, it provides balance, comparing original intent and design to how programs have morphed over the years.News4a2 (talk) 20:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue is not "original research" in the common sense, but a violation of one of Wikipedia's core policies. Please read the policy.  If you wish, you can list your concern at the noticeboard for this kind of question.  I'll cheerfully abide by the decision made there.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:08, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It would have been nice if you'd read it too ... again before your wholesale deletions. And I quote "you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented." Duh!News4a2 (talk) 21:15, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to misunderstand the policy. To make a statement like, "Admissions standards have changed", you must find a source that says that the admissions standards have changed.  You cannot find a copy of the admissions standards for one school (or four schools) in 1960 and the admissions standards in 2005 and say "Look, they've changed!".  You must find a source that specifically talks about changing standards.  For all we know, a change in GPAs for admitted students could be solely due to grade inflation, or changes at the specific programs that you happen to look at.  You must find a source that complains about changing standards; you may not do your own research to determine that the standards have changed.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * WhatamIdoing is correct. It is one thing to notice what is listed on a school's website. It is another to assert that "admissions standards have change." It is not for us to say if the actual standards and practices of an admissions department have changed. We need to have a reliable source stating that this has happened. Your selection of random sites and personal assessment of what the content on those sits mean is original research/ -- Zim Zala Bim talk  21:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The original class of PAs were ex-Navy corpsmen and Army medics. They were discharged. They became civilians. They had no college, no GPA, only a lot of healthcare experience but they were accepted into Dr. Stead's first PA program at Duke. And that's included in this article. Ex-Navy corpsmen and Army medics no longer are admitted to PA programs directly following discharge, regardless of how much healthcare experience they have. They have to have college credits. They have to have certain GPAs. They have to have certain pre-requisites. But they don't have to have all that much healthcare experience anymore. This is a serious change from the program formed and envisioned by Dr. Stead. All that information is presented from my sourced information. I really don't know how to more simply explain it so you'd be able to understand. Not that it would do any good. Honestly, I'm going to stop these discussions if you keep deleting my contributions. I've said what I'm going to say. It's obvious that you think only your contributions are acceptable. Tough. :P You don't own the article.News4a2 (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And neither do you. Perhaps you should review how to try to achieve consensus in this group project. -- Zim Zala Bim talk  22:23, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't define consensus as having you, WhatamIdoing and Nomad2u001 delete any and all contributions I make to articles. Consensus involves compromise and that's something that none of you three are obviously willing to do.News4a2 (talk) 22:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, and consensus and compromise must be achieved via discussion prior to the inclusion of the disputed material. That is why we continually remove the contentious content you are adding. You, on teh other hand, simply revert without discussion (and rarely an edit summary). I suggest you pause, and discuss here first before trying to include the content again. -- Zim Zala Bim <sup style="color:black;">talk  22:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, you don't even read your own referrals, to wit: "Editors typically reach a consensus as a natural and inherent product of wiki-editing; generally someone makes a change or addition to a page, and then everyone who reads the page has an opportunity to leave the page as it is or change it." Consensus is not achieved before but after. Silence implies consensus, but consensus is not written in stone. And, again, wholesale deleting of any and all contributions I make is not what I consider good faith effort to reach a compromise.News4a2 (talk) 23:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And, praytell, how is you wholesale reverting - without edit summary or content - of multiple editors attempts to keep improper material out of the article help achieve consensus or compromise? -- Zim <b style="color:darkgreen;">Zala</b> Bim <sup style="color:black;">talk  23:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm keeping my contributions intact so they may be discussed. If the information isn't there, it can't be discussed. Only one edit summary is necessary if the reversion is just a continual reversion of deletions by you and the sockpuppets. Anything else I have to say will be said here. And your method now is if you can't stop the message, kill the messenger.News4a2 (talk) 23:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As is the nature of this wiki's software, a history of all edits is viewable for each page. Further, I included a "diff" showing the edits in question in my very fist post in this discussion thread. As such, blindly re-inserting contentious material to "contributions intact so they may be discussed" is not necessary. Please stop. -- Zim <b style="color:darkgreen;">Zala</b> Bim <sup style="color:black;">talk  23:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I know we're wrestling ... just wanted to find out if you're enjoying it.News4a2 (talk) 23:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

After taking a look at the material and its sources, I have to agree with WhatamIdoing that the material constitutes original research - specifically the Synthesis section. As the policy states "synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a novel conclusion that is not in any of the sources." The conclusion contained in the added material is, "many PA programs have shifted from this street-experience focus of Dr. Stead and now recruit students with high GPAs and limited 'hands-on' patient care experience.", but this view is not stated in any of the referenced sources. (I do not doubt that there may indeed have been such a shift, but it is not Wikipedia's policy to make that call on its own.) Even if the material were restated in a manner that were allowed, I think it would belong in a section other than History. For now, I support its removal. -- Tcncv (talk) 01:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Any contributions I've made are as much "original research" as WhatamIdoing adding up census numbers. She added them up, placed a total on the page and referenced her source. Does adding numbers up constitute original research? No. But she has synthesized the separate numbers, coming up with a total. By the same token I've looked at the pages of the colleges, added them up and placed a general statement regarding that total. I could have gone to this [page] and counted the number of schools requiring healthcare and those that don't. Same difference. News4a2 (talk) 19:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, these two things aren't comparable. I've added up a couple of numbers in a column, using the same sub-division that the authors wrote.  You've posted the admissions requirements for schools, and rather than simply stating what's in your refs (for example, "Most graduate school programs do not require any hands-on healthcare experience"), you have written something only tangentially related (that the admissions requirements have changed compared to half a century ago).
 * If you have any reliable sources that talk about change, then I'm totally willing to include it. But you can't post the current requirements, which don't say a single word about the original requirements, and then assert that they prove that changes have happened.  Do you understand the difference?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Surprise! WhatamIdoing disagrees! Shocking! Way to strive for consensus Wha! Let me guess ... the only reliable source would be one you'd found? Health care experience was a founding plank used by Dr. Stead to build the Duke program and now 77 schools only recommend but do not require applicants to have health care experience; 10 have _no_ health care experience requirement. A good portion of the remaining schools which do require it define health care as anything from medical secretarial experience to "shadowing" a PA for a limited amount of time. Nah ... that doesn't signify change to even the most casual of observers. The average GPA requirement is now 3.5 [] and few street medics and military medics have a 3.5. If they did, they'd be in school with a bunch of scholarships instead of on the street or in the military. News4a2 (talk) 23:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll accept any published source that meets Wikipedia's usual criteria, which you'll find at this page. Note that if you want to talk about changes over time in the admission criteria for PA programs, then the source has to talk about changes over time in the admission criteria for PA programs (that is, exactly the thing that you want to talk about). I don't actually disagree with your belief about the changes; they probably mirror the changes seen in medical schools. (A hundred years ago, you could dramatically shorten your time in med school by spending the summer shadowing your uncle, the kindly country doctor.) I'm merely unwilling to compromise Wikipedia's verification standards to include it. Surely if this change is either well-known or controversial in the profession, then somebody will have published an article about it.
 * Oh, and my primary goal is not "consensus" about what we personally want to include; my primary goal is reaching a consensus that the information and sourcing complies with Wikipedia's mandatory policies. We don't have that now, and we can't have that so long as you simultaneously refuse to provide a reliable source that talks about changes in academic programs while insisting that the article include unsupported assertions about these alleged changes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Stead, huh?
(Removed tag.  To be replaced by request below.  -- Tcncv (talk) 19:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC))

A paragraph reads, "Today, however, many PA programs have shifted from this street-experience focus of Dr. Stead and now recruit students with high GPAs and limited "hands-on" patient care experience." (Italics mine) I do not know who Dr. Stead is and while I am sure he's a fine fellow I don't think it's meant to be in the article. Can an admin please clean this up? Bstone (talk) 02:00, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The above is not a paragraph, but a sentence taken out of context from within a paragraph. If you go to the original paragraph, it explains who Dr. Eugene Stead was and provides the base for the above sentence.News4a2 (talk) 03:42, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Dr. Stead is the recognized founder of the PA program. As for the other material, we are currently working through a dispute.  If you have time to review the disputed material, references, and discussion, please feel free to add your vote to the above proposal.  -- Tcncv (talk) 02:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Er, the whole Dr Stead thing just kinda jumps out at you. Perhaps instead of writing his name write something like "PA programs have recently begun to shift from those with a great deal of practical experience to those with high academic achievements." or something like that. Do you get what I mean by the Dr Stead thing? Bstone (talk) 02:09, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not a regular on this page, just a passer-by who decided to assist with dispute resolution. In my opinion, the first reference to Dr Stead seems fairly benign and justified in the context of PA history.  I agree that the second reference is a bit awkward.  That statement part of a proposed for deletion (next topic up), but if the consensus is that it be retained, I'd support rewording as you've suggested.  -- Tcncv (talk) 02:52, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There seems to be consensus among those who have commented that the sentence can be reworded as I propose. Perhaps a responding uninvolved admin can do this? Bstone (talk) 04:11, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think it should simply be deleted. It's a massive violation of WP:NOR, as none of the listed sources actually comment on changes in professional training.  They're simply lists of what the current requirements are for getting admitted to various programs, almost all of which (carefully selected?) result in the student earning a Masters degree.  It's not necessary to have a masters degree to be a PA any more than it's necessary to have a masters degree to be a Registered nurse.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you have a point there, What. Bstone (talk) 06:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

---What a surprise. The WP:Meatpuppets have reached a consensus without involving anyone with a dissenting opinion! Shocked, I tell you, I'm shocked! News4a2 (talk) 11:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you claiming I am a meatpuppet? You may want to read up on WP:AGF. Bstone (talk) 15:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Request for administrator edit
It appears that we have a general consensus regarding a couple of specific changes, so I am requesting the following edits:


 * 1) Based on the discussion and vote under Proposed cleanup above, please undo this edit.  User News4a2 appears to be the only dissenting editor in the related discussions.
 * 2) Also, based on the New text discussion above, please replace the first paragraph of the Employment section with the following (including embedded references):


 * In the 2008 AAPA census, 56 percent of responding PAs worked in physicians' offices or clinics and 24 percent were employed by hospitals.  The remainder were employed in public health clinics, nursing homes, schools, prisons, home health care agencies, and the United States Department of Veterans Affairs. Fifteen percent of responding PAs work in counties classified as non-metropolitan by Economic Research Service of the United States Department of Agriculture; approximately 17% of the US population resides in these counties.

Thank you. -- Tcncv (talk) 19:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Jclemens (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed cleanup
Since the article is currently edit-protected, we need to show a consensus and submit a request to an administrator to get any edits applied. I believe from the above discussions that all but one of us are in agreement. To restore the article, I propose that we request that this edit be undone. This will remove recent additions to both the History of the profession and Employment sections.

Please add your vote below with a brief reason and signature.


 * Support - For reasons already stated in the above discussions. -- Tcncv (talk) 01:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - I support reverting the recent addition to the History section; no opinion regarding the Employment section (I haven't scrutinized it). -- Zim <b style="color:darkgreen;">Zala</b> Bim <sup style="color:black;">talk  04:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - "History" is a clear violation of WP:NOR. "Employment" is (1) a POV push that is discussed in great detail elsewhere and (2) deleted because the reference isn't free.  However, if the admin is willing to make a slightly more complicated fix, I've proposed a slight change of the text (above) to incorporate the 2008 version of the annual AAPA survey instead of the 2007 survey, and it is always nice to have up-to-date information in an article.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do not Support - "I'm going to log on to Wikipedia here and I am going to change it ... You see, any user can change any entry, and if enough other users agree with them, it becomes true!" Stephen Colbert, Colbert Report. News4a2 (talk) 02:32, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Taiwan
We have an edit war over ===Taiwan===. Here are the two opposing sides: "In Taiwan, nurses can be trained to practice medicine in a 36-month program, being offered at the private Fooyin University."

and In Taiwan, nurses can be trained to practice medicine under the supervision of a licensed physician. Otherwise, the nationwide law of their own registered license is still discussed between nurses and physicain.

Note that Nomad added the pdf file because I requested that s/he cite actual sources. Obviously, I don't know if there are other programs in Taiwan; it's not my area of expertise. However, this back-and-forth edit warring really needs to stop. I'd like to ask editors here to spend a few minutes with Google and see whether information can be found. Alternatively, is there any reason why we can't include all of the information here? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In the absence of any other input, I'll try to combine these into a short paragraph. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Nomad keeps deleting the information about any options other than his/her favored university plus the reference for the information that he wants to include, which is a violation of Wikipedia's core verifiability policy. Please, let's talk about it here.  Don't just keep deleting things because you can.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

File is a study of the global applicability of PAs according to the number of US-trained PAs. Currently nurses are not being trained to practice medicine. [User:Nomad2u001|Nomad2u001]] (talk) 16:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * But they can be so trained? That's all that our page was saying.
 * Also: are there any other ways to become a PA in Taiwan, other than Fooyin University?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I've removed Taiwan. PA's unestablished in Asia per pdf file. U.S.-trained PA's scope is per state regulations, institutions, and American Academy of Physician Assistants. Barcat (talk) 17:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Barcat, did you read the pdf listed in this section, or the refs that you actually deleted? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a comment, I'm not familiar with nurses anywhere being trained to practice "medicine". They are trained to practice "nursing", a different skill, in a variety of practice settings and scopes.  ChillyMD (talk) 02:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Socks deleting others' comments
I've semi-protected the Talk page for two days (three different editors have removed large numbers of comments so far this evening). Any admin may undo this protection if they think appropriate. Since the vandal might be a sock of someone who has participated in editing the article, an WP:RFCU might be worth considering. EdJohnston (talk) 05:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Just for future reference, several of the edit wars here recently have been due to Sockpuppets of Nrse. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Physician or Physician's?
Physician's assistant makes more sense, as the assistant assists the physician, meaning that the assistant belongs to the physician. Does anyone agree with me? MarcGushwa 17:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarcGushwa (talk • contribs) 02:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

I have to disagree. The PA is not owned by the physician. The PA acts as a partner in medicine not an object that is owned. Actually some programs refer to themselves as physician associates (Duke for example).

--Wrong. PAs technically exist to assist physicians. They are an assistant to the physician. Without the physician, there is no such thing as a PA. Hence, "Physician's Assistant" is the more appropriate terminology. --DrSandman —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrSandman (talk • contribs) 01:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Physician assistant is the proper term, many a PA are bothered by an inappropriately placed little ' Gtadoc 02:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

--But this is not a question of ownership. It's a question of syntax. Grammatically, if John is assisting Karen, John is Karen's Nurse. It doesn't mean that John is Karen's possession, John is merely temporarily, the object of a sentence in which Karen is the subject. That said, "Physician Assistant" seems to be the dominant term, so we should keep it that way, despite how badly I, as a future physician would like to grammatically have an assistant... Dwinetsk 09:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Have you spent a great deal of time working with Physician Assistants? If, when you graduate, want an "assistant," I would recommend you employ a medical assistant. If you want to increase your productivity and revenue, then you may want a Physician Assistant. As you will find out during residency, if you utilize your PA by having them physically assist you in seeing patients, neither of you will be able to bill for their (the PA's) time; on the other hand, if they are also seeing patients and having you review the work, then they (the PA) will be able to bill for their services.

I admit, "Physician Assistant" is a confusing name, which does not represent the profession well; however, at this point it would be very difficult to change due to the way laws are written. Physician Associate is also a term that does not accurately represent the profession. Some schools (University of Washington) utilize the term MEDEX, or Medical Extender; however, due to licensing must utilize the traditional Physician Assistant term after graduation of its students.

We are basically talking about semantics that are sometimes inflammatory to a group that, in general, has spent years pursuing an education, which is often misunderstood. As a PA, I have two bachelors’ degrees in medicine (BS Paramedics, BS Clinical Health Sciences) totaling over 8 years in school, which is more time spent than if I had just become a physician. I know of very few Physician Assistants or ARNP's that claim to be or replace physicians, but is simply an adjunct to them.

Thanks, 66.36.223.162 (talk) 16:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

ok, here goes. I am a PA (Physician Assistant) and proud of it. We believe in the Physician-PA team. "We" is the main stream PA profession. By "Physician-PA" team I mean TEAM. With the Physician first. Yes, we are treated well by our supervising physician. And yes, we understand who is ultimately responsible for the practice. But we work together to help our patients.

As far as NPs go, well, some are my best friends. There is a difference in how we practice, a difference in how we are trained, but why fight? It makes no sense in this health care crisis.

And for the record, the Australian government has come to the AAPA to explore a pilot program in their country. There are now PAs in the Netherlands and England. The entire medical community is becoming aware of our value. So educate yourself and stop the fighting.

Texas PA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.41.159.222 (talk • contribs)

Globalize
This article is very US centric. Most of the article is how the program works in the US and then there are little short sections for a few countries. The article above the International section should be generalized to a worldwide view and then the International section should give the local information about Physician assistants. A new name 2008 (talk) 19:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I have mixed feelings about this. PAs are essentially a US creation that has been exported to a handful of other countries in the last few decades.  It's not the same as, say Nurse or Physician, which are very old professions with a worldwide base (and which obviously need to present a global view).  I have an impression that the majority of PAs in the world are actually in the US.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:15, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

About "Dr" Stead
From WP:CREDENTIAL: "Academic and professional titles (such as "Doctor" or "Professor") should not be used before the name in the initial sentence or in other uses of the person's name."

Please stop adding this inappropriate use of Stead's professional title to the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

First Paragraph
I don't understand this sentence in the first paragraph...

"PAs are not to be confused with medical assistants, ..., or PAs."

Sounds like PAs are not to be confused with PAs. Huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.119.128.87 (talk) 22:34, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Please fix the problems you created
Whatever is actually decided about the content of this article, please don't undo good edits with wholesale reversions like this. This removed perfectly good information, such as the titles of websites being used as references. Surely there's no consensus that "Becoming a Physician Assistant" - AAPA is a worse citation style than. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * grrr...and people label their reversions as minor edits so they don't show up in watchlists:-( Fuzbaby (talk) 18:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a common enough problem that I've set my prefs to include minor edits in my watchlist. About once a month, someone will do a series of semi-automated minor changes (like fixing a common typo) that will make me regret it, but the rest of the time, it shows me an amazing amount of nonsense that I would have otherwise missed.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

scope of practice
In the scope section, it says PAs can practice at the 'same level' as their supervising physician. I'm 95% sure this is not true as it reads; I understand a PA could follow a direct order to do a procedure if directly ordered by their physician supervisor, however, as it reads it sounds as if a surgeon could direct a PA to perform a Whipple procedure and they could do it since they operate at his/her level of practice. Perhaps I am misreading what it is meant to say, but on face thats how I read it...? Fuzbaby (talk) 03:33, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say its incorrect to state that a PA can work at the same level (scope) as the physician he/she works for. PAs have a defined scope of practice, and can work within that scope under supervision of a physiciian (not necessarily direct).  The physician's scope is much wider, much of what a physician can do is not inside a PAs scope and a PA couldn't do.  Now, if I order a PA to do something outside their scope, believing they are capable of doing it, then the PA is going outside their scope of practice and could be liable if something goes wrong, and I am essentially extending my authority to perform a procedure to the PA (by virtue of my license to perform said procedure) and would also be liable if something went wrong.  The same concept applies for paramedics in the prehospital setting (who do not have a license), they operate under the license of a physician for normal circumstances (not like a PA) but can be ordered to do things that are outside of the medics training (like a PA),  but then its their and my butt on the line if things go south...  ChillyMD (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

What can a physician do is not inside a PAs scope and a PA couldn't do? I understand a PA is licensed under the medical board the same board a physician is licensed under. Like a physician, a PA could not work outside their scope of practice. Like a physician, a PA could refer to specialist practices when appropriate, I understand assuming a PA is not operating as a specialist as stated in the scope of practice. According to the American Academy of Physician Assistants forty percent remain in clinical practice as a generalist. Koeschoe (talk) 16:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Guys, I made the comment about Scope. Perhaps someone should have edited it to make it sound better. Instead the editors here flipped out and banned me. Anyway... All PAs train the same... A cardiac PA working in association with a Cardiologist works with hearts... The Cardiologist Doc cannot go and start treating people for arthritis. This goes with the Cardiologist PA as well even if the PA has received competency in Arthitis. Now.. The PA Could technically Quit the cardiology and next day go work with a Doc who specializes in Arthitis and then that same PA could treat the same arthitis. I have read that "Legally" a PA could do complex heart surgery... but why would a supervising surgery allow someone who hasnt done residency in surgery/internships with heart surgeons of high regard?? From the first sentence of the PA page "PA practice medicine with supervision by a licensed Physician." It is absolutely clear PAs are not the boss or doc. As for Scope. Go talk to some PAs.. Generally there scope in comparison to their doc is the same. Not all cases are brain surgery and heart surgery. There are times when certain cases require the PA to refer to someone of expertise and PAs are trained to know when to do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.4.84 (talk) 17:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

It says PAs first assist. A Specialist PA working with a specialist could perform the same tasks. Specialist PA cannot first assist. Cardiac Surgery PA could not treat specialist illnesses a Specialist PA could as it is outside their scope of practice. Cardiac Surgery PA could refer the illness to the appropriate specialist.Veutourou (talk) 18:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I made an edit that disappeared, also, about PAs having greater flexibility in switching between fields. I probably did it incorrectly though, and it has since disappeared.  In any event, to reply, you are incorrect regarding scope of a physician (at least in the United States, I have no knowledge of how it works in other countries).  As a physician my scope of practice includes everything I've trained in medical school (which in itself is more than the scope of a PA) and everything from residency or fellowship.  For example, a cardiologist completed medical school, so that in itself allows him/her to do certain things, then did 3 years of internal medicine, so they can do anything a general internist can do, then a fellowship of 2-5 years in cardiology.  So, for instance, a cardiologist could cath a patient one hour, and the next hour adjust a patient's blood pressure medicine (something any internist, or really, any physician could do), and the next could go moonlight in an ER where he/she might provide management for a child in asthma induced respiritory distress.  So for instance, while a cardiac PA may be trained in evaulating a patient for cath, they wouldn't be performing the cath, and they wouldn't be able to do any of the various other things the cardiologist could do.  Now, if say it doesn't pay for a cardiologist to be adjusting someones diabetes meds or aspirating gouty joints so they choose not to do so, then thats a seperate issue.  Now, as a disclaimer, my knowledge of this comes only from my interactions with my mid levels, my practice, and the 2 hour talk we get from legal about how to supervise them and what to do/not to do; unforunately those legal guys get paid too much to spend their time giving us a 1000% correct answer on wikipedia!  ChillyMD (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I get what you are saying. I made a change that I think everyone can agree with.   Fuzbaby (talk) 02:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Comparison between physician assistants and nurse practitioners in this pdf, not sure if/how/where it should/could be added. [] Fuzbaby (talk) 02:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protected for a month
So that our Sockpuppeteer will have to invest some time and energy to edit war on this article. Rangeblocking may be appropriate if this doesn't work. Jclemens (talk) 18:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We're still dealing with anon editwarring and dis-improvement of the article. I'm tempted to reinstate semi if this continues, since we've been off semi for under a week. Jclemens (talk) 21:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sheesh. Semi'ed for another month--really wish this guy would learn to use the talk page or just leave. Jclemens (talk) 21:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Typo?
Under "scope of practice"

"... and they can not practice in a manner other than proscribed by their supervising physician."

surely "proscribed" should read "prescribed"? 128.146.239.33 (talk) 12:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, definitely wrong, and now fixed. Thanks for pointing that out! Jclemens (talk) 14:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Revert
Previous versions of the article were less redundant. This version appears as though it trashed the previous versions which were better versions.

"... and they can not practice in a manner other than proscribed by their supervising physician." What exactly does that mean? It says PA's first-assist in surgery. The line should suffice. The line subsequent to it is political nonsense. PA's are educated in the medical school model, what occurred to this section? The article appears as though it was trashed.

I've read your edit of the scope section and it is nothing but obtuse and confusing to anyone who reads it. Angels on the head of a pin. Aparhnarules (talk) 08:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

It's a shame that so many people are still unaware about the profession and the capabilities of a PA. a few weeks a ago i read an article about PA's being the number 1 profession to have! Aparhnarules (talk) 08:30, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You are a sock puppet of a banned user, User:SgtAvestrand1956. Any edits you make to the article will be automatically reverted.  If you want to contribute constructively, go back to the sockmaster accout, swear off sockpuppetry and disruptive editng, and plead for an unblock.  If you can't manage to follow a few simple rules for editing collaboratively and civilly, why should Wikipedia value anything you might have to say? Jclemens (talk) 15:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

And besides, I see nothing wrong with the information you have tried to take out. Above issues aside, you actually need a reason to put material in/take material out, other than you don't like it. Fuzbaby (talk) 02:52, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request
somebody should chcnge the money magazine fifth best job to the 2nd best job as published in october of 2009...in CNN/Money analysis s —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nedbruce (talk • contribs)
 * Do you have a source for that information? As in, give me the information here?  Do the research yourself and if the source checks out, I'll be happy to add it.    Fl ee tf la me   ·  whack! whack!  · 02:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

here is the source for his info

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/2009/snapshots/2.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.90.118 (talk) 15:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 173.32.90.118, 16 June 2010
Currently, the University of Western Ontario in London Ontario Canada does not have a PA program. Please remove this. Furthermore, the program offered through the University of Toronto is a joint in collaboration with The Michener Institute for Applied Health Sciences and the Northern Ontario School of Medicine. see http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/healthscience/PAEducation.htm

173.32.90.118 (talk) 15:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Done Spigot  Map  21:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 69.201.151.23, 24 June 2010
Nurse practitioner degree is not a less advanced degree. Please edit the comment next of the the link to nurse practitioners at the end of the PA article.

69.201.151.23 (talk) 17:29, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Done Spigot  Map  17:31, 24 June 2010 (UTC)