Talk:Piana degli Albanesi

This article is a mess
This article is full of incomprehensible sentences, lack of references and horrible grammar. It urgently needs a thorough clean-up. It also has a strong bias towards Albanian chauvinism. Some sections should be moved to Arbëreshë people; for instance the section on language. - DonCalo (talk) 10:29, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with you. --Prodebugger (talk) 10:52, 30 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I've started to attempt a cleanup, which I will approach as time permits. Mainly for grammar and NPOV, but for content if I can find the information. - PlanetaryIntergalactic (talk) 01:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Good luck, I admire your courage ... - DonCalo (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

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The Greek word "Hora" or "Chora" (Χώρα)
Some of us noticed that the paragraph about the word "Hora" was suspiciously lengthy, referring repetitevely to various Albanian dialects. Obviously, someone knew that the word is Greek, and was trying to cover it with unnecessary verbalism. However, lexicological and etymological info is always useful in the articles. So, I added the obvious, that the etymology of word is Greek (like thousands in Albanian language). I don't see the point of aggressive deleting of this information. I will propagate it actually, in other articles and wikis, although the known 3-4 users will war about it. The source I added (Titos Jochalas, better Yochalas) is/was a Greek academic, knows the Albanian language, and has dozens of publications on the "arvanitika" dialect. This particular source, is exactly about the arberesh use of the word Hora. What else?--Skylax30 (talk) 11:11, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you read the policy on WP:SYNTHESIS, but on Wikipedia we don't cobble various sources to equal a conclusion. You got reverted, not because the source is not RS, quite the contrary. Its because on p.49 where hora is mentioned it says: "Questo fenomeno possiamo benissimo constatarlo nella seconda edizione della sua opera poetica In terra straniera, dove il poeta sostituisce le parole greche della prima edizione hora — città"." translated it says "We can very well see this phenomenon in the second edition of his poetic work In terra straniera, where the poet replaces the Greek words of the first edition hora - city". How is an analysis of an Arberesh poet's works and the words he used relevant for the etymology of this place. Yohalas mentions nothing about the etymology of Piana. Now since you say you will "propagate" this all over other wikis, i take it your going to do WP:SYNTHESIS and edit war all over the place on this as well. Disappointing @Skylax30.Resnjari (talk) 11:32, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Come on Resnjari, we have met in WP for long time, and it is clear that you are subject to the phenomenon that T. Jochalas noticed with the Arberesh poet Giuseppe Schiró : Albanization, especially of everything that may be Greek or Slavonic. In fact, before the paragraph you quote, Jochalas says that Schiró (from P. dei "Greci", at his time) in the second editions of his works substituted the Greek words of his native dialect with albanian words that he learned during his travels in Albania or he invented himshelf(!) : " il poeta cerca di sostituire le parole greche del dialetto del suo paese natale, almeno quelle di cui sospetta l’origine greca, o con parole albanesi che ha imparato durante il suo viaggio in Albania o con parole che lui stesso formula. Questo fenomeno possiamo benissimo constatarlo nella seconda edizione della sua opera poetica ...". Jochalas mentions this only because this albanization made his research more difficult. After that note, he gives several examples of original Arberesh-Greek words that he found in the first editions of Schiró or others that he named previously. It is more than explicit that he refers to Arberesh words of Greek origin, which is the subject of his paper. Anyway, the word "Hora" is found in many toponyms, including Grico of Calabria (Hora or Chora), and Greece (mainly in the islands). Where is the "Synth", then? Are you, by any chance, saying that the "Hora" of the toponym is not the same word with the "hora" that Jochalas mentions? Btw, notice also that Jochalas says that many Greeks were albanized (p. 50 (3) ). Therefore, the usual albanian explanation going around WP that "Greci means Orthodox", isn't very convincing.

The reference: Jochalas Titos, "Sulla problematica dei prestiti Bizantini e Neo-Greci nei dialetti Italo-Albanesi", Balkan Studies 16, 1, 1975, p. 49.--Skylax30 (talk) 22:49, 28 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Again, Yochalas does not discuss the etymology of this village and the word Hora in his work and turning this thread into a WP:FORUM through an attempt at WP:SYNTHESIS is time wasting. On Schiro, an author can use, tweak, borrow, make up whatever words they like in their works like poetry and academics can examine their litreture as they wish. Again this article is about Piana. Regarding Greek words in Arberisht, Yohalas offers a few possibilities on how it arose. Either the Greeks words come from a time when these populations lived in close proximity to Greeks in what is now southern Albania, influenced too by widespread Greco-Byzantine culture. Another reason for those words is that Albanian speakers migrated from those places to Greece between the 13th and 16th century (you know i.e Arvanites) and lots of Greek words entered the language and later as refugees, they migrated (1500s) to areas of Italy along with Greeks that joined them like those from Koroni. As for the third aspect, some Arberesh settled in places where there might have been local Greek speakers in southern Italy, and Yohalas states that where Arberesh in large numbers settled in their midst, they probably absorbed them. Also the Greeks that came with them from the Peloponnese had a propensity to congregate with other Greek speakers in the region instead of staying with the Arberesh, so there is that too. Or fourthly, whether these words entered Arberesht from local Italian dialects that had borrowed Greek words. Greek also played a big role in the Orthodox religion. Yohalas says that more work needs to be done to examine whether its the third and forth aspect that gave rise to these words in Arbrisht. Yohalas makes one interesting observation, that the Arberesh and Greek speakers in southern Italy have almost non-existent relations. Considering that both are Orthodox in a heavily Catholic region, isn't that odd (especially if the Arberesh are indeed "Albanised Greeks" (if i got what you infer correctly)? ""Greci means Orthodox", isn't very convincing" that may be the case for you, but you will need sources that state that.Resnjari (talk) 23:42, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I suppose the above lecture is targeting the rest of us. If I was attending the lecture, I would have one question: Have you found anybody claiming that he is "Albanian" before 19th century? But this is not a forum, so the question is hypothetical. The point here is if the word "Hora" is Greek or not. Come to the point.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see anyone else in the thread. Keep to the topic at hand. Yohalas does not discuss the etymology of Piana. So having what you added in the article is WP:SYNTHESIS. You have been around on wiki for along while now, so one hopes that you have read that policy. In case you haven't, the first two sentences sum it up succinctly: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. Again nothing about the etymology of Piana on p.49 or anywhere else in the article by Yohalas.Resnjari (talk) 10:15, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:52, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Piana degli Albanesi-Stemma.jpg