Talk:Piano Sonata No. 21 (Beethoven)

I think that this deserves stub naming - it's simply too short for the peice Is it true that this was the first piece that Beethoven wrote for the modern 88 key keyboard?


 * Too early, I think! The article piano contains some information on the development of the piano that's interesting in its own right; and since the sonata no. 21 was written in 1803, not near 1810, it seems unlikely, since according to the article the range hadn't quite approached seventy-two notes by then. 1810 was more the time of works like sonatas 26 (Lebewohl) and 27 (and the two Hammerklavier sonatas 28 and 29- indeed, I believe that's their full name, Sonate für das Hammerklavier (as pointed out in the article on the second of the works it's not Beethoven's name for them, though)  they're written for the new instrument of the end of the 1810s.) That would be my guess. Schissel : bowl listen July 7, 2005 05:45 (UTC)

A response to the above:


 * In fact, Beethoven NEVER wrote a piece for the modern 88 key keyboard. The Opus 106 sonata, the one referred to as the "Hammerklavier" although I believe Opus 101 bears the same title, is the only sonata of Beethoven to utilize the fullest range of the keyboard: the lowest C to the highest F on today's piano. Many keyboards either went from C to C or F to F, but Opus 106 remains the only composition where Beethoven takes advantage of the new C to F pianos. (Opus 111 does have one very high E-flat in addition to going down the lowest C in the exquisite final chord of the first movement, but Beethoven includes a note to tell you what to do if your keyboard stops at the C.)


 * Beethoven's early works for keyboard extend from lowest F on today's keyboard to the F one octave about the treble clef. (Sometimes, Beethoven compensated for his limited range in beautiful and innovative ways, such as the recapitulation of the first movement of the D minor piano sonata, Opus 31 No. 2. In these cases, if he'd had the higher range he may not have come up with these beautiful ideas--necessity is the mother of invention!) The Opus 53 goes higher, I believe up to the A immediately above, and possibly up to the C (the second highest C on modern keyboards). The lowest F to the second highest C on our modern keyboards is the range found in the great Opus 57 sonata in f minor (the "Appassionata"). At the end of the Opus 57, in the very exciting coda, the bass descends while the right hand is at the highest possible register until finally for a fleeting moment the lowest and highest notes sound together. (In almost all printed editions, unfortunately, the measure before has the F and C together, but Beethoven in his manuscript crossed out the first version of the coda and rewrote it. In the rewritten version, those F's are changed to A-flats, which is preferrable as it delays that expected moment of the F and C sounding together. Also, it looks back to the opening notes of the first movement, unifying the work beautifully.)


 * Another notable work is Opus 101: this is the first time Beethoven is able to utilize a note below that F. At the dramatic end of the (extremely difficult!) development section, he uses the lowest E on today's keyboards, and even writes "contra E" (low E), exulting in the notes finally available to him. The works around 1810, like Opus 81a (Lebewhol) and the bagatelle WoO59 "Fur Elise" seem to call for a range from the lowest F to highest F on our modern keyboard (an octave higher than had previously been available to Beethoven), by the way. So does the Fifth Piano Concerto (Op. 73) and I think the Fourth Concerto (Op. 58) as well, but I'm not sure. I can't remember the range found in the Third Conceto (Op. 37), the dating of which has been debated, so it's hard to tell what keyboards were available to him then.

Hi. I made some changes to the introduction of ths article. The origin of the nickname is now all contained in the second paragraph. The mis-interpretation of Aurora as short for Aurora Borealis was corrected. 'Allegro' in the Movement section now directs to the Sonata-allegro form, instead of the tempo of the same name. 'Rondo' now directs to a more specific Rondo form page, instead of a general musical term survey page. Cheers. --205.250.216.86 05:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

How Many Movements???
At once, this article referred to the "3 movements" of the Waldstein, but later regards it as "2 movements, with an introduction to the second (acting somewhat like a 2nd movement). Let's make up our minds!

The Sonata is just two movements. I've quoted just one source, but could provide many more. A simple look at the ending of the Introduzione tells the truth:

1) It does NOT end with a bold double barline, but a simple (unbold) double barline)[i.e., end of section, not end of movement! Ends of movements are CONSISTENTLY indicated with a bold double barline.

2) The key signature of the Introduzione is cancelled, before the Rondo.  It is understood that the end of a movement is the end of its key signature, and therefore no cancellation is required.

3) I've been unable to find a single Beethoven movement which begins in one key, but ends in "mid-air".  The Introduzione end of the chord V/V, a most unusual situation for a composer who ends every movement on its own Tonic!

I WELCOME any arguments, and would be happy to discuss this matter! Prof.rick (talk) 07:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Three movements. Regarding point #3, your examples are the 5th piano concerto and the 5th symphony... the scores of which both exhibit points #1 and #2.  Nobody would ever claim that there are only two movements to the Emperor Concerto or three movement to the Fifth Symphony.  Movements that flow into each other without break are not that uncommon.   I'm going to change it back.  Cheers. DavidRF (talk) 15:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Motif Image
To my understanding, the image for the motif should be the first 4 bars, rather than the first 2. I'll correct this if I'm correct.  - down  load  ׀  sign!  22:31, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Its two bars of repeated notes before the begin-repeat sign. It wouldn't hurt to show the 3rd bar where the right hand starts playing something else which is more like a motif.  The 4th bar is a quasi-echo of bar 3 in the treble.DavidRF (talk) 18:06, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 13:16, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Note the date of the foregoing notice. The discussion, now long closed, concerned whether to move the sonata articles to new titles incorporating opus numbers. The conclusion was not to do so. Drhoehl (talk) 23:41, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 20:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Note the date of the foregoing notice. The discussion, now long closed, concerned whether to move this article to a new title "Pathetique Sonata." Drhoehl (talk) 23:41, 12 March 2012 (UTC)