Talk:Piano wire

Speaking as a piano technician, either name is OK. Sizes do go below #12, especially for zither and harpsichord wire, so there is a reason here to go with music wire, though my string table would need to be expanded. Thanks to someone for creating my table of string sizes!

Rename?
Any chance this article can be renamed "Music wire"? So far as I know, all the information here applies to all (steel) wire used for musical instruments (guitars, etc.), not just pianos. (The sole piano-specific thing is the range of gauges given, where the smallest gauge is .022"; guitar strings go down to .008".)

I'd propose renaming the article to "Music wire" and putting a redirect link in for "Piano wire". I'm pretty sure "music wire" is the more common of the two terms. --ILike2BeAnonymous 02:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Mapes appears to make most of the wire packaged as guitar strings. --Mireut 15:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * A Google search indicates that piano wire is the more common term. Also, I'd like further reassurance (from reference sources) that guitar/etc. wire is really the same product.  Opus33 16:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right about Google (though I'm still not convinced this means that "piano wire" is the more common term). Having worked in the repair business, I can assure you that it's the same stuff: tempered high-carbon steel. (The only differences between the two types of strings&mdash;piano and guitar&mdash;are in the materials used for windings, not in the steel core of the strings themselves.)


 * So I'd propose a 2-part change: 1) Make a redirect for "music wire" to this article, and 2) Insert text in this article explaining that "music wire" and "piano wire" are equivalent (same materials, but available in different sizes). --ILike2BeAnonymous 22:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, IL2BA. This would be ok with me.  Opus33 01:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have changed added a link from the music wire page to here, however it does not redirect as 'music wire' is actually a bit different than piano wire. Hopefully your all ok with that. whubbard 4:17, 04 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Piano wire "a bit different" from music wire? How? (Apart from sizes, that is.)+ILike2BeAnonymous 22:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Currently the music wire article is a tiny tiny stub that doesn't really say anything that isn't covered here. Why is it not a redirect? What potential does it have? Also, the use of music wire in bold suggests that this page assumes it's a redirect. - Rainwarrior 19:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Music wire is the name given to high strength patented carbon steel wire in USA and Europe. The same product is called piano wire in Japan. Hence music wire and piano wire entries should be merged. The reference to the historical origin of this type of wire is not very accurate. Music wire is the highest strength spring wire that is regularly used today for making springs in wire sizes up to 2 mm (0.080") diameter. Music wire has a structure of pearlite that has been drawn through wire drawing dies typically reducing the cross sectional area by more than 80%. The pearlitic structure is produced by a process called patenting after the patent taken out on the process by the owner of the Webster and Horsfall company in Birmingham, England in the 1850s. This company is still owned by the same family today, still employs the patenting process and manufactures music wire for the spring industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.164.229.126 (talk) 09:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I've ended up here after a lot of rummaging following a simple question as to whether guitar and piano strings were the same material (to a first approximation, 100% of people venturing an opinion on the internet are making confident guesses based on intuition). IMO some detailed metallurgical clarification is in order by someone far more expert than me. As i understand it (but please correct me), although spring-musical-piano qualifiers tend to be used interchangeably, wire as used in pianos is especially hard and brittle, having not undergone the post-quenching tempering process required for most springs to sustain normal strains without breaking. I also understand that piano wire has especially close tolerances, and that it has superior surface finish to guard against breakage initiated by surface cracking. i'm also deeply confused as to whether there has been a general transition to stainless steel (eg 304) in general, and whether this includes actual piano wire. This seems like the page where this should be sorted out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.175.57.184 (talk) 02:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Link to cold work
I took out the link to cold work because that article is overly technical and probably of little interest to a non-metallurgist here. I put in a link to drawing instead. --ILike2BeAnonymous 20:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Piano wire and sharks
I'm not a fisherman, but I question the Mythbusters story as presented here (I never saw the video). As I understand it, fishing line is not designed to lift a fish out of the water, rather it is designed to tire the fish out and bring it alongside the boat, where stronger hooks and gaffs are used to recover it. Several web sites devoted to shark fishing suggest the use of 50 or 80 lb strength line e.g. http://www.newenglandsharks.com/shark2.htm and http://bluemako.customer.netspace.net.au/ --agr 19:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd be happy to see this material deleted. We should be using better reference sources than this.  Opus33 01:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Done and done. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 06:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, IL2BA. Opus33 17:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The booby trap passage
Following up on ILike2BeAnonymous's sensible move, I'm moving this passage here to the talk page:


 * It was also used as a booby trap against American soldiers in open-top Jeeps by German troops in the final years of World War 2. The wire was tied at the neck level of a soldier riding in a Jeep on certain roads. Soldiers hit by this trap were almost always beheaded.

This sounds so much like an urban myth (villainous Nazis, sensational death, singling out of Americans as opposed to Allied soldiers in general ...) that I think it's too much of a risk to include it in the article at this stage. If the person who wrote it can provide a published reference source, then I wouldn't mind if it went back in. Opus33 20:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Why are you defending Nazis and downplaying the role of the United States in winning the war? I have a few ideas. --Haizum   μολὼν λαβέ 05:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I see it as a statement about warfare tactics, which may be too fascinating for you. I don't see anywhere in that paragraph giving the idea that he is defending Nazis or downplaying the role of the United States in winning the war. -Spansign (talk) 16:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe several modern armoured venicles ( eg British armoured land rovers in Northern Ireland )have wire cutters at head height precisley to stop this happening. It was also reported from Iraq at one stage. Whether these were mounted because of the urban legend or actual attacks I do not know. It was also in a WWII film. 145.253.108.22 17:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And there you have it. --Haizum   μολὼν λαβέ 19:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The book About Face by a Colonel Hackman, describes this technique as being used in Greece following the end of World War 2 against TRUST troops. Ghost175


 * Hello, Ghost. Looking on Amazon, Google, Google Scholar, and the online catalog of my library, I cannot find this book. Are you sure you have the author and title correct?  Sincerely, Opus33 (talk) 17:25, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I know it is About Face

but it may have been co-authored I'll try to scare up the book from my basement, sorry Ghost175 02:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is a cartoon drawn in the 1940's by Bill Mauldin showing a US Army jeep with a wire cutter installed. __Just plain Bill (talk) 02:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Small gauge
Is the smallest gauge .007"/0.17mm or .006"/0.15mm? Sumbuddy make it consistant.-- Randall Bart 04:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Take your pick. Mapes lists it as small as 0.006"; Roslau lists music wire for stringed and plucked instruments from 0.07 to 0.67mm, and for pianos from 0.675 to 1.60mm (an old chart shows their nr.1 is 0.20mm); ASW music wire gauge 6/0 - 0.004" is the smallest listed here. Piano specific limits might want to mention dates and tensions - Mireut 19:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction
The only contradiction I found in the article is relating to the smallest gauge: 0.006 or 0.007. It should be easy to clarify this for someone with greater knowledge of the subject matter. Vadigor 21:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

No garrottings after July 20th plot
I think you confused something there. Nobody who was executed after the July 20 plot was actually garotted. Some of them were intentionally hung in a way that did not break their necks, but suffocated them, prolonging the execution act, but that is far from how a "classic" garotte works. --Flosch 14:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * There are lots of references for the garroting of the July 20 plotters:


 * http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERwitzleben.htm
 * http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_3505000/3505014.stm
 * http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/05/03/hitler.assassin.ap/
 * http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,814409,00.html
 * http://www.trivia-library.com/a/assassination-attempts-adolf-hitler-chancellor-of-nazi-germany-part-3.htm
 * http://www.keene.edu/newsevents/default.cfm?Type=NewsDetail&News_ID=1327
 * http://nuweb.neu.edu/holocaust/a_question.htm
 * http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=147
 * http://www.fsmitha.com/time1944.htm

Plus the book I cited - I'm sure there are many more. If "garrotte" is not the right word, we could reword it, but piano wire was used as an instrument of torture for the July 20 conspirators.

I think this article needs mention of the nefarious use of piano wire, properly cited. The article shouldn't be all about strangling people with piano wire, but it definitely needs to be mentioned.

Dfuss (talk) 06:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for spotting these references, Dfuss. In the long, sorry history of efforts to embellish this article with sensational garrote discussion, you (plus one other) seem to be the only participants who ever cared about justifying their claims with reference sources.


 * On the other hand, it seems that the only area for which reference sources are (so far) available concerns the July 20 plot; and the wording given implied other uses as well. So I have rephrased to mention only the particular case for which reference sources exist, and also linked to the WP article July 20 plot.  I await comparable sources before we make any further claims about the general utility of piano wire for killing people.  Yours sincerely, Opus33 (talk) 16:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not interested in gory and sensational garrotte discussions, but I initially visited this article after I read a news report of its use on the July 20 plotters wanting to know how widespread this "alternate" use was. I was surprised to see no mention at all. I think the article would be much improved with a couple sentences addressing this topic. Is the portrayal in movies and in popular culture exaggerated? Is this use very infrequent and more popular in urban legends than in real life? I would be very much against turning this article into a list of real or alleged piano wire strangulations, but people who read this wire will want that topic addressed. Dfuss (talk) 19:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello Dfuss, I think your concerns are legitimate but I'm not sure how to address them while remaining with the rules of Wikipedia (see WP:VER and WP:NOR).  There are two questions at hand:


 * What is the role of (gruesome killings with) piano wire in our popular culture? You and I both know that it's an extremely widespread theme.  But I don't know of any reference source that actually says this.
 * (your question): To what extent is the pop-culture conception of piano wire actually validated in real life, other than in the 1944 Nazi killings?  In principle, this information is sitting out there in police and court records, and probably in some scholarly book or other, but this is definitely not my area (I got involved because I was editing piano), and I don't know where to find such a source.


 * I'll try checking the New York Times archive soon; maybe it would help. Opus33 (talk) 19:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the section linking to the July 20th plot. I have done this first because the statement of piano wire's use is unsourced. Second it lacks relevence and is superfulous in nature even if it can be varified. For this to be included in good faith the statement on Piano Wire in the July 20 article needs to be sourced, and more detail on Piano Wire's use as a lethal weapon needs to be given. After all we don't link the article on the Gladius sword to Brutus even though it is what was used (presumably) to kill him. Klauth (talk) 02:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This article needs a little section on the real and/or fictional use of piano wire to kill or torture people. I came to this article after reading an article about the July 20 plot to see if piano wire really was a common weapon and that use wasn't even mentioned. I did some easy online and library research and found that there are lots of reliable sources that say that the July 20 conspirators were hung up by piano wire - the book reference is still in the article (without linking to anything) and there are a handful of online references above. It is false to say that the mention is unsourced. Beyond the little research I've done, I'd like to know if piano wire is commonly used for "alternative" purposes or if it is just in movie plots. We know at least that it really was used in the July 20 plot. Until an editor wants to put more effort in, we should have something like:

Movies such as X and Y depict garroting with piano wire[source]. Besides fictionalized accounts, at least one well-documented case of garroting with piano wire is the execution of the July 20 plotters[source].

Someone above said "garrote" is the wrong word, so perhaps someone else has a suggestion.

Dfuss (talk) 03:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dfuss (talk • contribs) 03:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What a ridiculous display of non-logic. If someone is depicted being murdered by a table fork (or for that matter, a tuning fork) in a movie, does it then follow that some insipid "pop culture" section must immediately be added to that article to chronicle such trivia? And then when The Simpsons and Family Guy parody the film, that too should be added, with the "gag" explained in excrutiating detail? I am curious how many WP editors have actually cracked a real encyclopedia. :-) I don't recall the Britannica or Funk and Wagnall's ever having multiple Flintstones references at the bottom of each entry...139.48.25.60 (talk) 21:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, at least people who are curious can look at the article on garroting to see that piano wire is, in fact, used. So your decision to keep that information out of this article isn't too big of a deal. As for pop culture sections about the use of it as a weapon...I don't know where that came from, but it's rather stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.59.183 (talk) 03:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, 139.48.25.60, see straw man and non sequitur if you want to talk about ridiculous non-logic. Dfuss (talk) 23:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

ILike2BeAnonymous, your removal of my comments is not needed at all, just as you placed the HTML comment in the first place. The same goes for Opus33 insistence that it was very necessary, turns out not so. -Spansign (talk) 17:48, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * ¿Perhaps “Piano wire has been used for garrotes as well (along with other materials).” would work? There is no real dispute that piano wires have been used for garrotes (along with bailing wire, electrical wire, some fishing lines, and all kinds of line), and ignoring the fact of this nefarious, though rare, use only makes the matter more salacious.174.25.49.236 (talk) 17:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)A REDDSON


 * Maybe. But, in fact, nothing goes into WP without a scholarly reference source backing it up.  I've looked for some and it's harder than you might imagine.  Opus33 (talk) 17:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Not just for pianos
Diff. It is still "piano wire" or "music wire" when used to make springs, control rods, and other items. The article might not need specific mention of guitar strings, since I believe they are often made from smaller-gauge wire. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 01:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The incremental approach is working fine, IMO. Was about to do something similar when SWMBO took me to lunch... I think keeping "Music wire" as a redirect to here is just about optimal. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 18:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

"music wire" vs "rocket wire"
In the last several years from time to time I have seen mechanical devices with particular types of springs offered for sale. Recently certain manufacturers have begun using the term "rocket wire" to describe a particular grade of drawn tempered steel wire for springs, and in their advertisements they make the claim that such springs are superior to music wire springs.

Does the term "rocket wire" have any specific meaning? A Google search reveals that the term implies that the wire meets NASA specs for manufacture of springs to be used in spacecraft. Is this accurate, and, if so, how do the specs differ from "music wire?" Is it the heat treatment? The alloy? Precision of manufacture? Something else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 13:52, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Short answer up front: I don't know. I have seen rocket wire mentioned in online string-instrument fora. The main example springing to mind is the E string on a five-string viola with a body length more than about sixteen inches, where the string length calls for a combination of tension and diameter a bit beyond the material strength limits of "normal" carbon steel. Not sure how successful the rocket wire is in that application. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:53, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

The origin of rocket wire is from real rocket motors. Originally they used phenolic tubes for solid fuel rocket motors. They would cast the fuel in and put a nozzle on the end, and then wrap it with rocket wire to give the needed burst strength. The phenolic chars and provides insulation to keep the keep the wire from getting too hot. Rocket wire is higher carbon than music wire, and it hard drawn after HT like MB. This wire is drawn to such high strength that you have to be careful that you don't change the modulus of elasticity too much. The largest use ever for this wire was the short little support wires in the old magic flash cubes. Rocket wire was strong enough that it would hold the flash bulb in place for proper focus even when heated by the flash current. This wire was also used for throttle return springs where ultra high fatigue life is needed. I think that I have an old spec for it someplace. edstainless — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.249.122.226 (talk) 03:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Utility of page?
I imagine that someone looking up piano wire might be interested in using it for something? If so I imagine they would want to know the relevant properties of modern piano wires - density, elastic modulus, elastic limit and safe working limit, as well as (possibly) the Poisson ratio.

(I believe the term "piano wire" only appeared after about 1885 when Broadwood introduced high-carbon wires. Earlier and weaker wires were not as specialised, and would more properly be called "music wires").

I appreciate these are available in the references, but I think it would be as well to present the range for what we now call "piano wire" in the text.PhysicistQuery (talk) 13:25, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Cast steel
i would love more details about how one makes wire from cast steel. Is is cast as opposed to earlier forged steel wire? Or did or replace iron wire? Clearly it isn't cast directly into wire, so one assumes it is cast into rods and then drawn into wire. Why and how is this supior to a forged blank, which one normally associates with stronger steel than cast steel. Idumea47b (talk) 09:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Bass strings
There should be a mention about bass strings of pianos which are piano wire strings wound with copper wire to make them heavier, so you don't need super long strings for the lower notes. Typically in a piano, about one third of the strings use copper-wound piano wire. 85.144.220.151 (talk) 18:20, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This article seems to be more about "piano wire" the material and not about Piano acoustics, which is linked. How much "application" information is appropriate here? How to wind springs? How to temper steel? --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:48, 18 September 2023 (UTC)