Talk:Piccadilly Circus

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I am desperate to find out why Piccadilly was named Piccadilly Circus. What is the origin or meaning why the word "Circus was" added that it was named Piccadilly Circus? Was there perhaps, and excuse me if I might sound stupid, a long time ago when the name originated because there was a real circus there? I doudbt it as I cannot find any evidence of such on the internet. Can anyone please help...


 * IIRC a Circus (as in Picc. Circus, Holborn Circus or Oxford Circus) was a sort of road junction where the builidings are curved back from the street to make more space. Miss Pippa 18:29, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * More or less - IIRC, Circus is derived from Latin for circle and in particular a circular or oval arena for chariot racing (think Ben Hur (film)). In town planning a circus is a circular junction at the meeting of several artial roads. In other words its a roundabout which has a similar layout to the Roman circus, although it is also often surrounded by buildings which echo the ring of the junction. In the UK the architype is John Wood's Circus in the centre of Bath (the layout can be seen more cleanly in plan view).
 * So the circus of Piccadilly Circus is the roundabout which has the statue of Eros at the centre. However, now that one side has been pedestrianised, it is arguably no longer a circus. The same applies to the other circus locations mentioned, although several of them have since been modified so the roundabout isn't clear.
 * The other use of the word 'circus', in relation to acrobats and clowns, derives from the same Latin source, but concentrates on the entertainment aspect of a Roman circus. Even so, the traditional Big Top circus is still based on entertainment which takes place in a central ring.

"Piccadilly" takes it name from a 17th century frilly collar called a picadil. A dressmaker grew rich making them and built a house in the vicinity.


 * This is all summarised on the disambig page for Circus. -- Solipsist

Someone queried the last time the the Earl of Shaftesbury memorial (Eros) was moved. It was moved a few metres southwards towards the theatre in 1985 as part of the work to pedestrianise the south side. Prior to that there was only a narrow bus lane heading east passing to the south of the memorial.

Eros is actually his brother whose name escapes me. The sculptor used the wrong likeness for the casting of the statue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.25.42.209 (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Picture arrangement
I prefer arranging pictures closely with the text. JuntungWu 18:20, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * There is a problem with there being too many pictures. I recently took another from above that could be added but there isnt much space. I think it gives a better perception of the space than some of the ground level ones.

.

Lillywhites
Surely this was never Sogo? Wasnt the Japanese store next door. Lillywhites is *very* old.Justinc 13:38, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Possibly. Can anyone verify? --JuntungWu 08:21, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Lillywhites was founded in 1865. Havent yet been able to positively verify that that is the original building, but I am sure it is (right sort of date) and there was definitely a Japanese store next to it where the small Virgin is now (if they havent closed it since taking over the Megastore), with the sculpture of the horses on the corner. The sushi bar was round the corner. Justinc 15:10, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Sogo closed quite recently and I was pretty sure Lillywhites had been there for a while. The following quote from this page confirms it:


 * '... in 1863 ... Lillywhites opened in Haymarket. In order to keep up with growth, the shop moved to Piccadilly Circus in 1925 where it still stands today.'


 * I will change: '. It replaces a store previously operated by Japanese retailer Sogo.'


 * to: ', which was established in 1863.'


 * -- Wgsimon 03:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lillywhites has been where it is now for many years; SOGO closed only 5 or 6 years ago, and was replaced by the Virgin records store - which has itself just closed. james gibbon 6 July 2005 15:45 (UTC)

Typo
This sentence is missing a verb: After the war, the entire fountain from the centre of the junction at the beginning of Shaftesbury Avenue to the southwestern corner. Was it supposed to read "was moved"? Seems most likelyJustinc 15:30, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Changed. --JuntungWu 04:25, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Band
The info about the band is an exact suplication of their main entry, and I dont think they are important. Can we reduce it to a one liner linking to the other article? Justinc 15:30, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regent Circus
According to Isaac Asimov's Annotated Gilbert and Sullivan, Piccadilly Circus was known as "Regent Circus" in the late 19th century. (See Thespis, line "And he sells pipe-lights in the Regent Circus", from Thes.' "I once knew a chap who discharged a function". Thespis) This sounds plausible to me, and ought to be added to the article somewhere (e.g., History), but I'm not going to add it. Could someone please confirm the name and add it? --Quuxplusone 16:07, 15 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Some websites say that the current site of Regent Circus is Oxford Circus, some say Piccadilly Circus. This one says it's both, which would account for the ambiguity. If this is the case I guess this fact should be included too. Maybe it warrants it's own article. -- Wgsimon 20:50, 15 May 2005 (UTC)


 * This wesite has Regent Circus at both ends of Regent Street. Wgsimon 21:14, 15 May 2005 (UTC)


 * On this map from David Rumsey's collection Piccadilly Circus was calles Regent circus, and Oxford Circus was just "Circus" in 1834 ComaVN (talk) 22:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Movement of the fountain
The article refers to the fountain being moved to the SW corner "after the war". In fact while that's technically true, I believe it was moved sometime in the '80s - definitely after 1970, anyway; I have a photo taken in 1970 which shows it at its previous position. I'll find out when, and amend the article. james gibbon 6 July 2005 15:47 (UTC)


 * found out when .. actually in the late '80s, sometime after 1986. Also, when the fountain was moved, the space between it and Lilywhites and adjoining buildings was pedestrianised. james gibbon  00:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Plaza
This is a great article to see on the main page, but is plaza really the correct word for describing an area of a British city? Giano | talk 9 July 2005 09:45 (UTC)

I winced when saw the word plaza applied to Picadilly circus. Not sure what to describe it as but thats not it. Pedestrianised area  sounds the right sort of English phrase. 81.133.143.209 9 July 2005 13:20 (UTC)


 * I agree. Its not exactly wrong, and plaza could easily be used to describe say Paternoster Square, but it doesn't have the right ring to it for Piccadilly Circus. The best alternative I can think of, is the rather clumsy, 'Piccadilly Circus is a partially pedestrianised traffic intersection'. -- Solipsist 9 July 2005 15:27 (UTC)
 * I think in Britain the term is a "square", even when when its not square, many London Squares are in fact oblong, perhaps even "circus" is the correct term, Bath has a circus, the only thing I know for sure is that "Plaza" sounds very wrong. Giano | talk 9 July 2005 15:33 (UTC)

There isn't a convenient English term, but "landmark" would do well on this occasion. Mark O'Sullivan (an Englishman)


 * How about: 'Piccadilly Circus is a traffic intersection and public space in the West End in the City of Westminster in London, near Soho and Theatreland.' ? - Wgsimon 00:28, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I like that wording. -- Solipsist 01:03, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Sounds OK to me Giano | talk 06:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC) (not an Englishman)

Split into separate articles.
The split into separate articles (eg Illuminated advertisements of Piccadilly Circus is starting to lead to inconsistencies, as they basically have duplicated text. The parts in the main article need to be cut right down to stubs or the drift will get worse. Justinc 10:03, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The split and the category Piccadilly Circus is totally redundant. Should be merged in to one article and the category deleted. MRSC 10:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I have resynced the illuminated signs article and the main text. It seems to have been done because there are too many pictures. Will link to Commons where they should be, maybe we can delete the articles. Justinc 23:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

As of 2017, the Illuminated Signs section is too detailed and interrupts the flow when reading the article. My immediately thought it should have been a separate article. Thereafter, looking at Talk, I see that this was addressed in 2005. However, the extent of details seems to have grown since 2005. I think it should be reconsidered for separation into a standalone article. IGE (talk) 09:18, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

New Image Problem
Thanks for putting up the new image, but the red triangular area is not Piccadilly Circus. The correct location is the open area to the West of the triangle. -- Wgsimon 17:25, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

The correct location can be seen here. The dark round area in the northwest part of the block below the triangle is the circus itself.


 * That's the statue of Eros and it's steps. Piccadilly Circus is the the whole area. -- Wgsimon 19:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Eros
I have put a 'fact' tag in the section concerning the naming of Eros. The text looks convincing and I have no reason to doubt its accuracy but I have never heard the name 'Anteros' used before. As this information is news to many people and likely to be used to resolve disputes by readers I think it is important that what is stated is verifiable in some way. Can anybody provide any verification? Also, what was the official name of he statue, if it had one? Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:10, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

If the proper name is 'Anteros', as the article mentions several times, why is the statute called 'Angel of Christian Charity' at the end of the History section? 68.230.71.24 (talk) 15:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can read what the article says but we need reliable sources. This is an issue which is likely to be the subject of  arguments and heated discussions among Londoners.  If we want to provide definitive information we must cite sources. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:28, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I also question the Anteros name since there is a plaque commemorating 100 years as Eros. Astro359 (talk) 16:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Where is this plaque? Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:28, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe it is incorrect to suggest (especially in an unequivocal fashion, and in the section heading) that the figure that crowns the Shaftesbury Memorial represents Anteros rather than Eros. It’s true that Alfred Gilbert himself made this claim at one point, but that was one of many conflicting statements that the sculptor made about the inspiration for the statue some years after the work had been completed and installed. Gilbert seems to have come up with the Anteros afterthought as an element of his extensive attempts to justify his work in the face of prolonged (at times rabid) criticism from late-Victorian moralists. The same motive applied to Gilbert’s retrospective suggestion that the statue represented ‘the angel of Christian charity’. At the time the work was installed, no one was in much doubt that the figure was Eros, rather than Anteros, or any other alternative character, and the same view is held by most scholars today.

For the section on Eros, and also for the article on Anteros, to present as definitive the view that the statue represents Anteros, without any verifiable citation, is, I’m afraid, one of those classic Wikipedia issues, whereby one unnamed (but doubtless well-intentioned) user (213.123.37.252) who holds an unorthodox view has foisted it on unsuspecting readers as undisputed fact when it’s actually nothing of the sort. At best, it’s one hypothesis among several. There is no incontrovertible statement that can be made about the identity of the wingèd figure, but the broad consensus is that it’s Eros. But next thing you know, Anteros will be coming up as the answer in pub quiz questions on Piccadilly Circus, because someone read it on Wikipedia.

For an in-depth discussion of the subject, I recommend Jason Edwards’s book ‘Alfred Gilbert’s Aestheticism’ (2006), especially the chapter entitled ‘Piccadilly Aestheticism, c.1886–93: Eros’. Russ London (talk) 18:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that informative comment. I will change the section title back to 'Eros' as a start as that is by far the most well-known name.  Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:21, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Martin. There are still some issues with the article itself, regarding its over-assertive statement that the statue represents Anteros. The wording now purports to cite 'contemporary records of Westminster City Council' but the actual direct source is the Book of General Ignorance, which (like the TV show from which it derives) is famed for finding 'loopholes' that will allow it to claim that perceived common knowledge is wrong – but its claims do not always stand up to scrutiny and I believe that to be the case here, for the reasons I've stated above. If I get a chance, I'll have a go at rewording the article sometime (not to entirely delete the Anteros claim, but to make it less unequivocal). Or, if you'd like to tackle the task, feel free! Russ London (talk) 09:44, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sure that you are right. It would be great to find some really authoritative sources on the subject.  One editor claimed that there was a plaque on the statue saying that it was called 'Eros'.  The last time that I was there I could not find a plaque.  Also, is the 'official' name still 'The Angel of Christian Charity' on the grounds that it was at some time officially given that name and there has been no official renaming since. It is all a bit of a mystery.  Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:00, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Martin, I fear, for the reasons I've mentioned above, that there will never be a 'definitive' verdict on the identity of the wingèd figure. Nevertheless, I am certain that the statue was never officially renamed the Angel of Christian Charity – that was just something that Alfred Gilbert once said it represented, in order – I believe – purely to deflect puritanical criticism. As I've also said above, there has never been an official name for the winged figure specifically, but the entire installation was originally called the Shaftesbury Memorial Fountain, and later became known simply as the Shaftesbury Memorial when the fountain was decommissioned. Informally, the installation is usually called the Eros monument, the Eros statue, or just Eros. Westminster Council must surely be considered the authority on this, and that council always uses one of those forms, never making any reference to Anteros or charitable angels. I do believe that the present wording of the section on Eros is a mish-mash of truths, half-truths and downright falsehoods. But that's just the way that Wikipedia is sometimes and I'm not inclined to spend some considerable time correcting it, only to find it changed again soon afterwards. However, if some other dedicated soul performs the task, I will try to help defend their work from future debasement.Russ London (talk) 19:51, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

The arrow's direction
On a related point, how can the two sentences "The fountain, when originally placed, was meant to have Anteros pointing his bow south towards Wimborne St Giles in Dorset, which was the Earl's country seat. The archers arrow was also aimed so as to bury its shaft in Shaftesbury Avenue." both be true? Dorset is to the south-west, while Shaftsbury Avenue is to the north! He only has the bow, and no arrow or quiver are depicted on the statue. It sounds to me as though the whole "shaftsbury = shaft buried" thing is hokum, cooked up because of the similarity in the way the terms sound. Anyone got any reliable sources?  Pyrop e  16:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Main Photos
Is it really necessary to have three maps, surely an actual photo would be better —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.110.25 (talk • contribs)

Wards Irish House
Wards was indeed a deep labyrinthine pub which served the best Guinness in England. It also served very good lunch and was frequented by all sorts, including City types looking for good grub at reasonable prices. It sold Irish brand cigarettes, such as Carrols and Major. It had two bars...The Munster and Leinster and the Connacht and Ulster Bar. You would have to go down two steep lots of steps to get to the bars and they were not very friendly if you were trying to get back up with a few pints in you because they were very steep. The writer of this note has personal experience of falling down these on St Patrick day about 40 years ago at about 4pm.....2.30pm was closing time but if you were in you were in and the pub did not close(except for the doors) most days.

Wards Irish House: Where we learned that the ubiquitous Buskers from all local Underground Stations' Alleyways were, in fact, not sole-traders but rather a loosely bound Collective who divvied their dosh up here whilst enjoying the excellent Guinness. All Irish Students heading for London seeking work for the Summer were well aware of the existence & location of this Community//Employment//Accommodation Centre nestling in the bowels of Piccadilly Circus unbeknownst to the milling throngs above hustling hither & thither avoiding Tourists lest they all go down like 10-pins. Many's the Mammie's boi, fresh-off-the-Boat on their first adventure outside their Parish, balking at first at the dark almost ominous descent into this Promised Land, to later emerge, lighter by the cost of a few Pints sure [FACT: In 1974 £1 got you 5 Pints] BUT knowing they were on their way to crash on someone's floor that night; in the morning get an introduction to some slum Landlord who ALWAYS had 'BedSits' available AND, on the next Working morning, be brought along to some Building Site where a few patrons of Wards already worked & (being the 70's) vacancies existed everywhere.

> As an habituê there WAS one troubling time to be in such a prominent centre-of-town establishment that unashamedly marketed it's Irishness. October & November 1974; Guildford & Birmingham. Bad times. Now, as the two entrances (Shaftesbury Ave. & Coventry Street) were merely darkened doorways that led you down steeply-inclined stairs to a dungeonesque basement, we theorised that sooner-or-later it'd only take two outraged citizens with one petrol-bomb each down the stairs & us imbibers would've been incinerated...!

>> There were SO many crazy characters around, not to mind the Dilly Boys AND the Scandal & Conspiracy Theories arising from the infamous PLAYLAND Amuement Arcade a few doors away. MJ

There is no mention here of Wards Irish House in Piccadilly Circus located next to or under the London Pavilion, Piccadilly. I think under. It was a quite famous underground pub, popular with journalists, actors and Irish navvies. It could certainly well have been a public toilet at one time – it closed down sometime in the 1980s. A big, dingy, labyrinthine pub in the bowels of the London Pavilion, with zinc counters, the walls were covered in public toilet tiling (light green and cream in colour) and there was ever that indefinable odour mingling with the Guinness and whiskey and tobacco fumes. You could get Dublin standard Guinness, along with gruffly amiable service. Underground, it was a sort of sanctuary, a club for the unclubbable.

Its (junior) sister pub was at 1-2 Bull Inn Court, WC2R 0NP off the Strand. It was in use certainly in the 1920's and was definitely still open in the early 1980s.

More famous in its day than the Wong Kei Restaurant, in Soho.

Surely it rates a mention?BeckenhamBear (talk) 20:14, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe. Why not add something yourself. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:28, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Does anyone remember a regular at wards bar whose picture was on the wall who told me he was the keeper of T S Eliots false teeth he showed me a piece of paper which authenticated said statement I think his first name was Alan.the first time I went there I sat at the bar on a stool and he (Alan)was sat next to me and the very first words he said to me was did you buy any sheep today and I thought to myself this is my kind of bar 2A02:C7C:B04B:0:194D:3A71:508A:83B5 (talk) 10:59, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There was only one photo in Ward's [ from 1970 till 1983 ] which was of Michael Collins it hung above the office door. Chap called Alan was a regular he lived in the Barbican complex and worked in Simpsons along Piccadilly. There certainly was no shortage of characters including the Scotsman who came in about 3 times a week dressed in full attire. I always suspected he was not a Priest however i never found out for definite. Conn. 2.27.239.195 (talk) 21:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Anteros again
The Anteros name is based entirely on one source, which is not intended to be entirely serious. 'Eros' is the name by which the statue is almost universally known. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:20, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And yet seven years later the Anteros name is still there, in all its wrongness. I really will get around to correcting this one day, if no one else does, but I don't have time at the moment. --Russ London (talk) 18:57, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

"Circus" revisited
The explanation is confusing. Why not just say "an archaic term for roundabout (UK) or traffic circle/rotary (US)"? Are they not synonymous?

And even if not quite, how about "a form of" or "an older design for". It blows my mind that a whole article on a "circus" doesn't once mention "roundabout" or "rotary"! 209.172.25.203 (talk) 06:02, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The article gives an explanation. There is no reason that this should be given in present day road traffic terminology. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * oh, i thought it was still there!


 * so, piccadilly circus is long gone? even before the age of "traffic terminology", which, let's face it, goes back to 1500 or so.


 * article does not give that impression. nor do the photos of CARS.... ;)  209.172.25.100 (talk) 05:29, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * You are quite right, Piccadilly circus is still there, or it was last time that I looked but its name was decided before the age of the motor car. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:21, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * so if it is "still there", why is there "no reason that this should be given in present day road traffic terminology"?! how does a local DESCRIBE it?  "oh, yeah, piccadilly -- that's the big [--] down at the end of the street".  what NOUN do they use there?


 * ppl above have voiced dislike of "plaza" and "square", and you seem to dislike "roundabout" or even "area SIMILAR to a roundabout". article implies that no one says "circus" or "circle" in a generic sense anymore ("the big circus at the end of the street...").


 * if there is a TRAFFIC ISLAND at its center -- statue or no statue -- why is it NOT a "roundabout"? say "closed roundabout" if u like, or "former roundabout no longer open to traffic".  i can't imagine ANYONE says "oh, yeah, the PARTIALLY PEDESTRIANIZED PUBLIC SPACE down at the end of the street".  seriously?! 209.172.25.48 (talk) 19:57, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

The place is essentially a glorified and noisy roundabout, and has been for the last fifty years. 83.251.170.27 (talk) 15:44, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

i'm gonna move it over to the "piccadilly" page instead.


 * btw, it turns out the relish is "piccalilli" -- with an L -- altho i've definitely seen it with a D at times (not to mention being a D consistently in spanish). i don't see how you get relish out of starched collars (or vice-versa) but that seems to be exactly what's happened here.


 * is there an etymologist in the house? 209.172.25.100 (talk) 05:24, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Diameter of Piccadilly Circus
I could not find a description of the horizontal extent of Piccadilly Circus. Sir James Hopwood Jeans in his book, The Stars in Their Courses, models the size of the Solar System (the orbit of Pluto) to Piccadilly Circus. The scale size of the sun and planets he gives as a pea, seeds and dust. To write about that model, I wanted to give a correct idea of the size of Piccadilly Circus for someone that has not seen it. IGE (talk) 09:19, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

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