Talk:Pickup artist/Archive 1

Technical Integrity
A note to future users: Some of the information in the industry is edited and reformed by users less than expert knowledgeable in the field. The following entry was observed:

AMOG "Alpha-Male Other Guy" changed to "Alpha-Male Of (the) Group".

AMOG - Alpha Male Other Guy - In reference to a situation where you are trying to close on a chick and there's direct (in-your-face) competition from another PUA. This is different than a cockblock because the normal disarming strategies don't work. Source: http://www.fastseduction.com/acronyms.shtml

Please verify your sources before making edits in future contributions.

NLP and hypnosis
I'd like to remove these from the opening paragraph. The community as a whole isn't really in to that so much any more - it's like having 'peacocking' up there - and they're mentioned elsewhere. Of the five or six notables we have listed, only RJ promotes this. On the other hand, that's how the community got started. SecondSight, and DutchSeduction - I'd like your input, cheers WoodenBuddha 09:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think they should be mentioned somewhere, though I guess they don't have to be in the opening paragraph. Though most PUAs use bits of NLP without knowing it; concepts like "state control" and "frame control/reframing" come from NLP, as far as I know. --SecondSight 19:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Developing Concepts
I've split the guru pages in to a navigation template. I consider this a Good Thing. We could probably start to do this with concepts in the community. How far do we want to go here? We also need to be careful not to break any copyrights... I'm particularly pleased with my work so far on the Mystery Method page - I think it gives a great over view without giving too much away. But do we want to start splitting out sections on say Peacocking, Negging, Weasel Words, Cocky and Funny, etc? Any thoughts?

WoodenBuddha 12:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should have a section outlining some of the various concepts. There is info on many of them in the news articles already referenced.  If it gets too long, we can always make a "Concepts of the Seduction Community" page or something like that. --SecondSight 19:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

About deletion
Who is erasing this entry?

there is a book out by neil strauss (a new york times best-selling author and music columnist) called something to the effect of "the game - the secret society of pick-up artists." the book is a 450-page autobiographical account of the writer gathering information about certain people who, for years, and anonymously over the internet, would trade seduction stories and compile a list of seduction stragies (known as the layguide). the book also deals with strauss' implementation of the strategies in his life and describes the results. two of the seduction "experts" have pages in wikipedia: mystery and another person whose name i can't remember. the foregoing should be sufficient reason to keep, maintain and contribute to this article. Streamless 15:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

An article on the seduction community deserves to exist. I won't hide my biases: I am a member of that community. Yet regardless of my interests, the community deserves an article because it is a massive movement that is having an increasing impact on our culture. The seduction community is notable, for several reasons:


 * The main website of the seduction community, the moderated Alt.Seduction.Fast (mASF) forum on http://www.fastseduction.com has 20,000 members and 60,000 monthly readers. That is only one of the websites in the seduction community.  The community also includes "lairs" in major cities worldwide where pickup artists meet (see this "Lair List").


 * Strongly suggest using the nonprofit "official Lair List". Avoid promoting commercial sites.  We've been down this road on the original seduction community article before.  That original article is now hosted at "LairList.com".DutchSeduction
 * There has been a book written about the community called The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists by Neil Strauss, which reached the New York Times Bestsellers list.


 * There are substantial mainstream media references to the seduction community. Here is a list of 20+ references, from the talk page of User:DutchSeduction:


 * Strauss, Neil, The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists (2005), ISBN 0060554738
 * ""'The Game': Come Here Often?"", Alexandra Jacobs, New York Times, 11 September 2005
 * ""'He Aims! He Shoots! Yes!!"", Neil Strauss, New York Times, 25 January 2004
 * ""Every Maverick Needs a Goose, but Should You Pay for One?"", Anna David, Razor, July/August 2005
 * ""What It Feels Like . . . To Pick Up Britney Spears"", Neil Strauss, Esquire, 1 August 2005
 * Operation Pick-Up, Hugo Rifkind, The Times, 3 September 2005
 * ""All the Right Moves", Emma Forrest, The Observer (UK), 11 September 2005
 * "Girls, If You See This Man, Run a Mile", Rafael Behr, The Observer (UK), 25 September 2005
 * ""Single-Minded", Jane Ganahl, San Francisco Chronicle, 25 September 2005
 * ""Meet Professor Seduction ", Chuck Terhark, Utne Magazine, November 2004
 * ""The Secret Society." ABC Prime Time. ABC, U.S.A. 30 September 2005
 * ""Lady killers"", Lianne George, Macleans magazine, 02 September 2005
 * ""Sexual politics: The Game by Neil Strauss"", Christopher Hart, The Sunday Times (UK), 02 October 2005
 * ""Seduction for Dummies,"" Kristian Gravenor, Montreal Mirror, 14 July 2005
 * ""Seduction? Any woman with her own hair and a bottle of vodka can do it,"" Rowan Pelling, The Independent (UK), 04 September 2005
 * ""Books: Q&A with author Neil Strauss,"" Lianne George, MacLean's (Canada) 29 August 2005
 * ""Extremely Dangerous Knowledge", Neil Strauss, Esquire, 01 September 2005
 * ""Go On Pull the Other One," Neil Strauss, The Observer, 15 February 2004
 * "Pickup Shticks", Jerome Weeks, The Dallas Morning News 23 September 2005
 * Revealed: the dark arts of the ladykiller, The Scotsman, 12 Sep 2005
 * Danger: pickup artists ahead, Deborah Netburn, Los Angeles Times, 31 August 2005
 * The Game by Neil Strauss, Guardian Unlimited (UK), John Crace, 3 October 2005
 * Keeping score with pickup artists in 'The Game', Wesley Morris, The Boston Globe, 27 September 2005
 * Pulling Power, Shane Watson, The Sunday Times (UK), 11 September 2005
 * Weitz putting 'Game' face on, Tatiana Siegel, The Hollywood Reporter, 24 February 2006


 * Neil Strauss has been on TV shows discussing the seduction community, such as his appearance on ABC's The View (scroll down that page to Sep 2).


 * Columbia is making a movie based on The Game.


 * There is a prospective reality TV show being made which includes members of the seduction community.


 * As for a "Google Test," it was pointed out on the AfD page that there were less than 1000 google hits for "seduction community." "Seduction community" currently has 907 hits. This is because "seduction community" is not the only term for it: it is also known as the "pickup community" (500+ Google hits), or simply as "the community" (which we can't do a proper search on). Combined, that yields over 1400+ hits. A search for "fastseduction" (after www.fastseduction.com, one of the main sites in the community) yields 26,900 hits.

Considering the large size and international span of the seduction community, and the substantial media attention it receives, I think it's very difficult to argue that the seduction community is not notable. The page Halo.Bungie.Org survived deletion, and it seems to be much smaller and less influential than the seduction community, and it has nowhere near as much media references.

I wasn't around to see the original seduction community article, but I understand that there were problems with commercial spam. I would like to see spam avoided in future versions of the article, but I think the article definitely needs to exist. I'm not sure how it should be rewritten, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. --SecondSight 01:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Article rewritten
 -Splash talk 00:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

end of prospective seduction community article, and comments on it:

-- SecondSight 23:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that every sentence is verifiable. I have cited extensive news sources reporting on the seduction community, a book on it, an upcoming movie on it, a prospective reality TV show on it,  and I have linked to a very large seduction community website.  I believe that this is overkill for demonstrating that the topic is notable.
 * This version is massively incomplete. I would like the article to eventually document the history of the seduction community, and talk about the various seduction gurus like Ross Jeffries, Mystery, and David DeAngelo.  Yet I am holding off on mentioning the commercial aspects of the community for now, because the original article attracted a lot of spam.  The website that I do mention (www.fastseduction.com), despite having commercial links, is a free website.  See the Houston Press article for documentation that fastseduction.com is a major site in the community.
 * Suggestions for improvement are welcome
 * I have moved the new article, with its history from your userpage to the article page. -Splash talk 00:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Splash. I deleted the section on the bottom (about comments on the article explaining how it is notable and verifiable), because it is already part of this talk page, and I had never intended it to be in the actual article. --SecondSight 04:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Strongly suggest including one, and only one reference to FastSeduction. It's one of the most commercial sites in the entire community, and hardly needs more advertising! The original Seduction Community article was removed because of commercial spam. It is undeniable that the subject attracts spam marketeers. DutchSeduction
 * FastSeduction.com is mentioned multiple times because I needed to cite it as a source. If we can find other sources that say the same thing (like you did with the Lair List), then we can use those instead. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions
some background info, such as a copy of the original 'layguide' and also descriptions of some to the techniques that are mentioned but not described in 'the game'(such as october man). Streamless 13:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I will be including more background info and detail as I get around to it (I've started already with the new section on the practice of seduction). I will also describe some techniques (though I am not familiar with the "october man"). The original layguide can be found in the Player Guide on www.fastseduction.com. --SecondSight 07:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's make this article decent. I would say we need to mention that the current community started with, and is an offshoot of RJ and his alt.seduction.fast newsgroup. I think some information on Mystery, who pretty much split the community, is in order too. I think we should mention, at some point, David DeAngelo, as someone who first really commercialised the community.WoodenBuddha 15:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, I've started the History of the Seduction Community section, which mentions Ross Jeffries, Mystery, and David DeAngelo. This section is short for now, because I've had trouble finding documentation for the history of the community in reliable sources.  If anyone can find such sources, then let me know. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Footnote method (e.g. a mess)
I've moved this to the new citation method. I know that it's a mess right now, but my browser is a monkey typing while listening to the server through a can and a string. I'm going to fix-fy the links (per the now-hidden but previously oddly duplicated list of external links) pretty soon. That may mean "soon" in geological time-scales, but regardless. - brenneman  {L}  05:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The footnoting is much appreciated! I will use it myself if I add more citations. I'm fine with the removal of the "Further Reading" section, because I guess it was redundant. Btw, I noticed that when you deleted Mooff's references to the Mystery Method (which do look a bit like spamming) from various other pages (like the Courtship page), your reverts deleted internal links to the seduction community page, though I'm not sure whether that was intentional or not. At some point, I do intend to start linking related pages to the seduction community article. --SecondSight 07:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought a good deal about it prior to doing so, but it was intentional. I know that we assume good faith and all, but (as you noted on his talk) his contributions looked, well, spammy.  I've seen before a combination of internal and external spam like that that leads to other internal articles with external links... see it's confusing just to say, isn't it?  Anyway, I thought that the cost of removing them was small enough that I went ahead. -  brenneman  {L}  07:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggest linking to the various other seduction gurus who have their own pages now: DeAngelo, Ross Jeffries, Mystery, Badboy, Style. DutchSeduction 07:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mentioning commercial seduction products and gurus
I would like to hold off on mentioning commercial seduction products and gurus for now. As I said above, I do believe that the page will eventually have to mention the gurus, products, and methods, because they are an important component of the genesis and history of the seduction community. When the page discusses the commercial aspects of the community, it will need to place them in context, so it is clear to other editors that mentioning these commercial aspects isn't just an attempt to spam. --SecondSight 07:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I have included mention to some of the commercial seduction gurus. If anyone has any objections, then discussion is welcome. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Earlier Vote for Deletion
This article was voted for deletion not long ago because the subject was considered "non-notable." (Note: While the massive number of pages devoted to the "Pokemon" community is!)

The vote for deletion was non-conclusive, but the article was deleted anyway. Strongly suggest pro-actively putting the article up for vote again. Note that only the votes of registered users with considerable history on Wikipedia will be counted. Good luck. DutchSeduction
 * I believe that the previous article was considered "non-notable" simply because so many users were unaware of the massive media coverage that the community has received. I don't think anyone can serious argue that the community is not notable at this point.  Btw, thanks for the list of media references one your talk page; it was very helpful. --SecondSight 04:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're welcome for the references. I'm glad the article is back now, but don't be surprised if it comes under attack again.

There were two issues the first time. Issue 1) spam and adcruft from commercial parties (like Bristollair and Attractanddate dotcom) and 2) individuals who were strongly opposed to the subject matter. There were extensive media references on the original Seduction Community page, and the Straus book was on the NYTimes Bestseller list at the time! DutchSeduction

Watch out for user Nightlife. He's the marketeer behind the attractanddate commercial site, and history shows he will continue to keep inserting adcruft into the page. DutchSeduction

Clean-up tag
I've added the clean-up tag, because I think that the article looks a bit 'dense'. Sorry to be so vague on this, but I can't draw the exact problems with it out of my unconcious.

Besides, with the wealth of links, it should be easily extended.

By the way, I've added the title at the top of the first discussion, to bring the contents box further up. -- Sasuke Sarutobi 18:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, if you can be more specific on the exact problems you see with the page, then let us know. I'm slowly extending the article. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm arrogant enough to think I've tidied this enough to make it look 'cleaned up' :-) Let me know if you disagree.

WoodenBuddha 09:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, it occurs to me that the media part is still pretty clunky. Split it out in to 'media coverage' and 'criticism'? I think this could be better worded.

WoodenBuddha 10:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Commercialization of the Seduction Community
I have put discussion of commercialization into its own section. I agree with what is written so far, but it needs sources (hence the citation needed tags). Also, it sounds a bit POV. For example, "Separating reliable sources of information from the ineffective ones has become more difficult for newcomers to the scene" sounds POV because some people may not agree that any seduction information is reliable or effective in the first place, and others might think that reliable seduction information is easy to find. "The original spirit of the community is, however, a non-commercial one where brother helps brother and secret information is still passed around from hand to hand" also sounds POV. I personally AGREE with these claims, but we either need to (a) rephrase them in a way to make them NPOV, and/or (b) find a source that makes the same claims, and cite them. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Wooden Buddha is up to his silly tricks again. Fastseduction.com is a commercial site, period. The amount of traffic on the site allows it to command massive advertizing revenues, and the sites operators have long ago become wealthy from it, now branching off into new lines of business. No offense, we like what they do, but let's keep NPOV please. DutchSeduction 10:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

WoodenBuddha's edit history is checkered with promotional adcruft. I'm surprised he doesn't understand why promoting FS.com as "A free, moderated, alternative was created (see: alt.seduction.fast), which is now indisputably, and by some margin, the largest and most prominent forum in the scene. While the forum now has heavy commercial advertising, it's still free to use, and considered independent" seems like adcruft to many other WPers. Again, I have nothing against the site whatsoever, but let's stop letting biases creep in. The owner of FastSeduction.com is Learn the Skills Corp. It's a commercial website plain and simple. Stop trying to cover that up! DutchSeduction 13:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The Lair List
Everyone in the community uses the lair list that is mirrored on Bristol Lair, and administered by the RunningAPUAGroup list, as has been the case for a while. 'DutchSeduction' runs the out-of-date, recent, and in no way 'official' Lair List foundation. DutchSeduction - most of your edits seem to promote your sites. Please stop spamming the wikipedia, or I'll move to have your account terminated.

WoodenBuddha 10:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I might add - to brand 'Bristol Lair' as a commercial site because they use advertising to offset hosting costs is like branding your Dutch Seduction site, which you continually spam, commercial, because you use Google ads.

WoodenBuddha 10:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Buddha, where do you get your information? RunningaPUA is Nightlife's site, the same person you criticized elsewhere. Bristollair is highly commercial, its owner has gone on record as saying so. You are showing your commercial biases. Stop spamming.

LairList is a nonprofit organization, with an advisory board, and completely non-commercial. See the LairList Foundation site for more details. DutchSeduction

It is also your own site (read ExternalLinks) and quite simply not the one used! That makes it misleading to include it. FastSeduction.com, without a doubt the most read and most used seduction site on the internet uses a copy of the Running A PUA Group list. I am changing the link to this. DO NOT CHANGE IT BACK.

WoodenBuddha 12:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not own or maintain any of the sites I've added to WP. These are all objective sources. DutchSeduction

These are all commercial sites you are promoting, WoodenBuddha. This is exactly the kind of commercial nonsense that got this page deleted the first time!! Stop spamming us now. DutchSeduction

User WoodenBuddha appears to be some kind of meat-puppet spam artist, who is trying to build references to various commercial seduction sites on Wikipedia. We'll have to watch out for him. DutchSeduction

External links to Bristollair.com and Fastseduction.com are external links to sites which "primarily exist to sell products or services" and "sites with objectionable amounts of advertising" External links  WoodenBuddha, please inform yourself better on WP guidelines and commercial POV. DutchSeduction
 * (Minor detail: I do agree with WoodenBuddha that FS.com may not be primarily about selling goods and services. It seems to be that their primary goal is to provide free seduction info and discussion forums, and that their ads are mainly to finance the servers needed for the site's high traffic.  But that doesn't really matter: FS.com is still a commercial site, and we should favor noncommercial sites over it when possible.) --SecondSight 20:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

At very least, BOTH nonprofit and commercial sites should be included. The WP preference would be to keep only the objective nonprofit one as presenting the most NPOV. DutchSeduction

DutchSeduction - Neither FS.com nor BL.com "primarily exist to sell products or services" - both provide free, advertising-supported information, as does your site, dutchseduction.com. You also run the Lair List Foundation, a splinter group you started, having data-mined the original group, as you did not wish to include a rival lair. This is well documented in the Running A PUA Group archives, where there are many emails from you, under a variety of aliases. I encourage anyone interested to go and check this out. I have removed the link to the lair lists all together - I don't feel they are particularly useful, or provide extra information, and I'm sick of your shameless promotion.

WoodenBuddha 14:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

WoodenBuddha, please stop meatpuppeting. Of course both "primarily exist to sell products or services." Fastseduction.com is a company, and Bristollair.com is a commercial site owned by an individual named Magnus. The former charges $30,000 for an advertisement on its site, the latter charges a bit less. I do not run the Lair List Foundation. All lairs are included in the Lair List directory, whereas the Bristollair.com RAPG directory has intentionally removed entries from sites it doesn't support. The NPOV bias is clear.
 * If it's true that the RAPG directory is not complete and is intentionally removing entries, then I think we should go with the Lair List directory, regardless of whether DutchSeduction runs it or not. (Unless someone can show that there is a problem with LairList, like it being out of date or otherwise incomplete). --SecondSight 20:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I have seen the RunningPUAGroup archives you are referring to. These archives have been censored by the commercial owners to protect their commercial interests. One of the owners is Nightlife, a marketeer for a dating site, who you yourself have elsewhere accused of spamming. So there's a strong POV slant in your logic.

The lair list is an important part of the community, and should be included. There is no promotion for a nonprofit site, as it benefits no commercial organization or individual in any way. We will include both references, the objective nonprofit, as well as the commercial one.

WP:AN/3RR Please see comment on the David DeAngelo talk page. The same situation as the LairList debate. DutchSeduction 17:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Either (a) only LairList.com should be included, or (b) both LairList.com and FS.com lair lists should be included. Since LairList is a nonprofit site, and the ads on it belong to the hosting service, that is an argument for including it. DutchSeduction, please come clean on exactly what your relationship to LairList.com is.  The reference list on the FAQ very much resembles the reference list from you that I used to help make the page.  Please explain.  If you have some kind of access privileges to the site, that doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be cited, but please come clean about this.  --SecondSight 20:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, there are NO ADS on the LairList.com site. My relationship to Lairlist.com is as a volunteer/contributer, just like at this site. I took the reference list from them. 213.148.236.254 03:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

LairList.com is a very recent addition to the PU world. The lairlist on fs.com, bristollair.com and a bunch of other sites is syndicated from 'RunningAPUAGroup'. DutchSeduction - as far as I can tell, you are the same person as 'stRiPPed', who has not only 'seen' the archives, but is an active participant in them. Assuming you /are/ (and this stRiPPed guy runs the dutchseduction.com site you keep linking too, and is the founder of lairlist.com), you know all this, and you know your 'the archives are censored' comment is a lie, and I was one of the many North American lair leaders you contacted under a variety of aliases, trying to get us to sign up. Please be honest about your identity here!

WoodenBuddha 21:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

WoodenBuddha, please stop trying to create drama on WP. The archives on RAPG are being censored. There is an ongoing discussion about that taking place at http://lounge.lairlist.com. Have you noticed that every question or discussion about LairList.com ends with a negative comment from one of the list owners? Or did you ever see the full explanation of what happened at Style's book party in Amsterdam posted to RAPG? The full explanation IS on LairList.com. The censorship is very real. DutchSeduction 03:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I really don't know about the squabble going on between you guys, but I've updated the page to include both the LairList.com list, and the FS.com list. Are both of you happy with that? --SecondSight 22:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

SecondSight, I have no squabble with anyone. But you will see a large number of commercially and politically motivated individuals attempt to instigate problems on a page. To censor or modify to suit their own POV. What you'll have to watch out for is creating a balance between satisfying these people and avoiding outside criticism that all the references are commercial spam. There are now half a dozen references to FS.com, which is one of the biggest money-making websites in the whole community. DutchSeduction 03:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * From my perspective, it looks like a squabble, because I don't have all the facts. So far, most of your claims seem to hold water in my eyes, and I am satisfied by your explanation about your connection with Lair List, which is why I have suggested that the LairList.com link stay on the page.  I added both the LairList.com link and the FS.com link to attempt a compromise between you and WoodenBuddha.  If you want to remove the FS.com Lair List link, I don't think I will try to stop you, but you will have to work that out with WoodenBuddha. --SecondSight 06:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No, absolutely not, SecondSight, it is WoodenBuddha as a spammer trying to create a squabble. Feel free to keep the FS.com link there if that satisfies the other side. The original Seduction Community page was removed for exactly the same reasons, negativity and conflict between various commercial parties trying to force their own agenda. DutchSeduction 07:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Long lists of gurus
Throwing them all in to 'See Also' on some of the pages is a suck idea. We should create a separate category that these pages can be used in, and thus a list of them. How do we decide notable vs non-notable here? We don't particularly want Ray Gordon adding himself a page - DutchSeduction has shown the dangers of self-promotion already! While those in the community have a good idea who should be mentioned, some more solid tech might be advisable - say 3+ media mentions? What are options from a technical POV? A category page?

WoodenBuddha 07:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Meh, I went all Nike and 'Just Did It'. You can edit the template here: Template:Commercial_Seduction_Teachers (note a small amount of discussion on the talk page about who should make the cut).

Comment posted into article
COMMENT: if the "community" is so noncommercial, why does no one disclose their incomes and why is everything they do trademarked? Don't insult people's intelligence, and don't act like "attack marketing" is anything new, as it dates back to Ross and Don Steele at least. The whole idea of a "community" in an industry should raise red flags for potentially anticompetitive behavior. Why haven't the prices for any of this stuff come down despite so many miore people entering the field? --unsigned comment by 24.193.241.255 moved from article to talk page


 * Nobody said that the community is noncommercial (which is why there is a section on the commercial aspects in the article!). The community isn't completely commercial, however, because a large amount of its information is available for free.  Who acted like attack marketing is something new?  I don't know where you are getting that from.  Why haven't the prices gone down as more people enter the field?  Maybe it's because there is more demand as more people become aware of the community.  --SecondSight 01:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting questions and comments raised by this reader. They are good comments. It shows that we should give equal play to the very important divide between the commercial and non-commercial aspects of the community. Why does no one disclose their incomes? I'll bet some people do actually disclose their incomes. In fact I happen to know that while a few individuals at the top are making very good money at this, most of the commercial guys are struggling to keep afloat, and in the meantime their games are suffering. Making business out of an enjoyable hobby will do that for most people. The prices for some material has come down, while other prices have only gone up. That's the result of market differentiation. But despite the rampant commercialization, several nonprofit organizations exist and thrive. Each commercial group has its own mini community or user's group currently, but there are many independent, nonprofit user's group currently, of which DutchSeduction.com is a good example. DutchSeduction 10:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Nobody's suggesting the community is 'so' noncommercial. In what other industry do private companies disclose their income? DutchSeduction - this topic is NOT your private vehicle to try and slip links to the websites you founded in. Please stop treating it as such. WoodenBuddha`

I agree. It is nonsense. No one has to disclose their income to anyone but the taxman in a privately held corporation. I am only responding to the unsigned comment above. Stop accusing me of what YOU are doing. I don't own or run any websites in the community. Corporations like Learn the Skills Corp. which own and manage Fastseduction.com are clearly commercial web sites and enterprises. Stop trying to promote them! DutchSeduction 13:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Dutchseduction lies...
Ask Dutchsedution this since he is spreading lies about how the lairlist is completely open.

Where are these listed on the lairlist.com

under The Netherlands...???

Amsterdam Dating Amsterdam Dating is an OPEN forum with as purpose to bring men together who want to learn what it takes to have a date with a woman on a NON-PROFIT base. We are an OPEN forum meant for everyone who wants to learn more about women from all walks of life: WE HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE. We don't discriminate or do any pre-selection or screening on new members: EVERYBODY IS WELCOME! Visit Yahoo Group Contact Matthew

back to top

Dutch Lair Visit www.nllounge.nl Contact NLLounge Moderators

This is the whole reason Dutchseduction and Badboy started this. The only censoring that has gone on the RunningPUAGROUP was Dutchseduction himself. All he did was trash talk about www.nllounge.nl over and over again till the point multiple complaints were made by many members.

The list http://www.fastseduction.com/lairpage.shtml here includes these. The only groups that are not allowed to be included are cited for pirating material. Yet his group does NOT include these.