Talk:Pie/Archive 2

Tourtière
Can someone please add something about tourtière. Practically a culinary icon in Francophone Canada. Tourti%C3%A8re —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.3.48 (talk • contribs) 23:45, 23 January 2008

History
Pie has been around since about 2000 B.C., around the time of the ancient Egyptians. At some point between 1400 B.C. (the time of Greek settlements) and 600 B.C. (the time of the decline of Egypt), the pie is believed to have been passed on to the Greeks by the Egyptians and it was becoming more popular.

From Greece the pie spread to Rome, somewhere around 100 B.C. by which time pies had already been around for some 1000 years. The first known pie recipe came from the Romans and was for a rye-crusted goat cheese and honey pie.

Pies appeared in England in the 12th century and were predominantly meat pies. The crust of the pie was referred to as the "coffyn" and there was generally more crust than filling. Sometimes these pies were made with fowl and the legs were left outside the pie to act as handles. For a long time the pastry crust was actually not eaten, serving only to preserve the moisture and flavour of the filling.

Pies went to America with the first English settlers. As in Roman times the early American pie crusts were not eaten, but simply designed to hold the filling.


 * I've moved this section of the article to the discussion tab from the main article space -- please re-integrate the material when appropriate sources can be documented. Coccyx Bloccyx (talk) 17:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Cake vs. Pie
Will someone explain me something I never really got... what is the difference between cake and pie? --Stormwatch (talk) 16:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The main difference between cake and pie is the general structure of the dessert. Pies are typically composed of an outer crust, with a sometimes partially-liquid filling on the inside (fruit, vegetables, fish, etc.) Cakes are commonly made of one base substance; a sweet, bread-like one (what's commonly called the actual "cake"), along with other such additions like frosting, a layer of ice cream in the middle, and food or other decorations on the top, to name a few. Look at some of the pictures of pies and cakes on their articles on here to see the difference yourself. -- Jamie  S93  02:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that was a very nice explanation. Maybe this should be added to the article, other people may have the same doubt. --Stormwatch (talk) 22:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Also you can't get steak and kidney cake Jooler (talk) 23:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Cakes are generally sweet and sugary, whereas pies often have meat and gravy in them.

cake is evil and pie is good —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.6.77 (talk) 13:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Correction Needed
"A peculiarity of Adelaide cuisine in the Pie floater." "In" should likely be "is," but this page being protected while being also poorly edited results in the error standing.

- Jack Vermicelli 98.209.134.64 (talk) 01:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Broken link, and new URL
The reference to the Royal Naval Museum (^ "Ships Biscuits - Royal Navy hardtack". Royal Navy Museum. Retrieved 14 January 2010.) leads to a web site of which the account has been suspended. A new web site, and a renamed museum, have been created, without a reference to hard tack, or to ship's biscuit : https://www.nmrn.org.uk/

Cultural bias
Many pies in this article are North American by their omission of a lid. Quiche, torte, tart, flan, and pasty are related to the pie. Often in the U.K. a pie has a lid. Pastry is used for pies; suet crust for puddings. Tarte tatin is a French classic dish.

Calzones
I removed calzones because they are a turnover, not a pie.DaddyTwoFoot (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Mushroom pies in the United kingdom?!
Seriously, is there even anything called a mushroom pie? Because like no one would ever eat it, including me. Unless,you might have eaten it before... --Kit 04:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC) A mushroom pie is a pie that is filled with mushrooms and you're right no one would ever eat it!--Kangaroo2 (talk) 12:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I think you may have been misled by a punctuation problem: the text should have read (and now reads) fillings such as steak, cheese, steak and kidney, minced beef, or chicken and mushroom are popular. In other words, it's a chicken-and-mushroom pie filling which is popular, not a mushroom-only one. Chicken and mushroom pies can frequently be found for sale hot, with or without chips, in English fish and chip shops. — Preceding unsigned comment added by user name or IP (talk • contribs) date

And yes, there are plenty of recipes for mushroom pie. You may not like mushrooms, but plenty of us do! --Kay Dekker (talk) 21:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think there needs to be a lot more information about lobster pies - maybe an entire page for them, with a picture if possible.Oliver9184 (talk) 17:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

If there are different recipes for mushroom pie then it could be great chichken and mushrooms would be great sorry about the first comment I was confused. Kangaroo2 (talk) 23:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Other pies
Blueberry pie is a major sort of pie, and there is an article for it. It certainly belongs on this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.238.243.21 (talk) 01:36, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

There is an article called "tomato pie" but it appears to describe a pizza-like food. Most of the internet recipes seem to be for this kind. The tomato pie to which I refer is a regular fruit pie using the flesh of a tomato for filling, with sugar and spices to make it sweet (My friend's dad loves them, but I thought they were pretty nasty).

A vinegar pie is related to a chess piebut may warrant its own listing.165.91.64.192 (talk) 01:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)RKH

Another type of pie to add could be the deep fruit pie. This is the UK (and possibly more) name for a fruit pie with only pie top layer of pastry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obikirk (talk • contribs) 16:44, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Pizza pie?204.83.49.29 (talk) 05:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC) Not an official pie but certainly some mention?
 * See earlier discussion on pizza below. Pizza is a flatbread with toppings, not a "pie". Geoff  TC 15:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd argue that cheesecake has no place on the pie page, the clue being in the name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.246.168.14 (talk) 10:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

How can a cheese pie be a meat pie? Last time I checked cheese isn't meat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.246.168.14 (talk) 14:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC) pie is good —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephen100 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC) 

Crust section needed
This article is extremely filling-centric and therefore totally WP:POV. I was coming here looking for information on the history and cultural variations of different types of pie crusts and I am totally disappointed that filling fans are controlling this article. If anyone can recommend a good source on the history of pie crusts then write me and I will help fix this article by adding new information and cross referencing with Pastry.  Blue Rasberry  19:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

The section of the definition "made of a pastry dough casing that covers or completely contains a filling" is quite unclear. Is this a casing because it holds the filling or covers the filling. This definition certainly excludes Shepherd's Pie because the cover is not pastry. However, in restaurants I am often presented with items advertised as pies but which contain only a top covering of pastry, often cooked separately from the "filling". Should this definition be more clear over the point that a true pastry pie is only such if the pastry section lies below and aside the filling and not necessarily over the filling, and that both pastry and filling must be cooked together? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.202.32 (talk) 12:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Definition of a pie versus retail practices
The section of the definition "made of a pastry dough casing that covers or completely contains a filling" is quite unclear. Is this a casing because it holds the filling or covers the filling. This definition certainly excludes Shepherd's Pie because the cover is not pastry. However, in restaurants I am often presented with items advertised as pies but which contain only a top covering of pastry, often cooked separately from the "filling". Should this definition be more clear over the point that a true pastry pie is only such if the pastry section lies below and aside the filling and not necessarily over the filling, and that both pastry and filling must be cooked together? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.202.32 (talk) 12:16, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

No-bake pies?
I've been thinking recently about the 1950's phenomenon of the no-bake pie. Specifically, the Grasshopper pie brought to my attention that there's virtually no mention on Wikipedia that this sort of thing exists. Grasshopper pie was deleted for failing notability requirements, but I've been wondering if the broader No-bake pie category should be added, though they're not actually pies... they're almost like Custard pies, or Cream pies, but instead of eggs, an artificial thickening agent, like Cool Whip, or gelatine, is usually used.

Any thoughts? Is this notable? I suppose thousands of recipes for no-bake pies doesn't make them notable... Then again, what makes Rhubarb pie notable? Any thoughts on what might make them so? AlexDitto 16:19, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes there are no bake pies; these kinds of pies coconut creme; chocolate creme and custard pie. 68.70.14.63 (talk) 14:17, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

A Tart is not a pie!
Not on God's clean earth. And a pie is not a tart! Tarts must be sweet! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rogermcelroy (talk • contribs) 18:20, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * According to tart "...filling may be sweet or savoury...". I would suggest finding a source that says a tart must be sweet, and adding it to that article first. Then you have a case here. Best wishes, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:05, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Rogermcelroy, 27 January 2011
I wanted to clarify that a pie is not a tart and a tart cannot be a pie and to outline the differences!

Rogermcelroy (talk) 18:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Please outline the differences, and the sources to support it here first. Then we can add it to the article. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

syntax error
The flour and water + fat pastry wrapped around the meat does not "serve to: cook the meat...". The pastry has nothing to do with cooking the meat, but with preserving it and making it easier to handle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.104.11 (talk) 10:42, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

No Pie Chart of Pies?
Seriously folks how can you have an article about pies that does not summarize the popularity of pies via a pie chart? If I made one, would that constitute original research?

I have found a very nice pie chart of pies but I don't know of the legalities and such of using it. I've also noticed that the slices are not to scale, for example, in the case of apple pie, the percentage is 47% in which case the slice should subtend and arc of 169 degrees, so perhaps the caption should warn the reader that the chart should be used with caution. It can be found here:

http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/1200-favorite-pie-america.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zedshort (talk • contribs) 15:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * As long as the numbers come from a reliable source, then displaying the information in a chart is not a violation of No original research.  See Graphs for one method of creating a pie chart.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:02, 1 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, I was hoping to copy the image as it is very attractive. Zedshort (talk) 04:13, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It is a lovely picture, but it will be copyrighted, and therefore not something we cannot take. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 October 2012
Hello -- I'd like to add a link to this video about how to make pie crust based on traditional American ingredients and technique. Very well done by a food historian and pie baker. Thanks.

http://www.mynorth.com/My-North/Video/Food-and-Wine/?vid=4792 Video: How to make perfect traditional American pie crust, demonstrated by food historian and baker.

Jeffsmith1000 (talk) 12:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * ❌ Please see what Wikipedia is not. What you want to be added is pure advertising, and cannot per Wikipedia's policies. TBrandley 20:28, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 September 2012
May I suggest that a French Silk Pie be added? This type of pie is not represented in the list of Sweet Pies. A lot of folks where the French Silk Pie was invented have forgotten or are ignorant of what a true French Silk Pie is. The ingredients should never include whipping cream, cornstarch, flour, or gelatin. The "silk" texture is the main component of the pie that results from the method the ingredients are incorporated. The chocolate taste is secondary to the silkiness of the pie filling, and contrasts with the salty, buttery, flakey pie crust, though some cooks like to substitute graham cracker crust. Thank you.

Singhalissa310 (talk) 16:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: We don't appear to have an article about French silk pie (although an article French Silk Pie was deleted as advertising last year), and I'd suggest not having redlinked items in the list. If you can find sufficient reliable sources, you could write the article first. But I think your claims here, while undoubtedly correct, are based on original research. (Original research or not, it does sound delicious!) Rivertorch (talk) 17:40, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I can confirm "delicious", and also "amazing", "incredible", "yummy", and more. A graham cracker crust, however, is just wrong.  The homemade version of the pie is made with raw eggs.  The whipping cream goes on top, not inside it.  Some commercial versions do contain flour and other odd ingredients.  Cook's Illustrated Magazine Spring Entertaining 2011 features this recipe and might have information about it.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Are pies really defined by their crusts?
Why is it that near to the beginning of the article we find a sentence which declares that pies are "defined by their crusts"? Surely many pies are defined by their fillings and not their crusts, such as steak and kidney pie or minced beef and onion pie  - indeed, these two pies have the name of their fillings in their names, as does apple pie. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 11:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the intended meaning is something like this: "pies can be divided into categories based on their crusts—e.g., filled pie, top-crust pie, two-crust pie". The word "defined" is a bit ambiguous in the context, and the sentence probably should be rewritten. Rivertorch (talk) 18:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

German wikipedia link
Can someone with editing privileges please fix the link to the German version? It currently points to Obstkuchen, which is only one kind of sweet pie. There's no single term for "pie" in German, so I suggest the disambiguation page http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.16.198.139 (talk) 19:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not a solution - de:Pie covers too many topics and therefore is appropriately linked to Pie (disambiguation). Materialscientist (talk) 00:31, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"A people's history"
Excuse me but a people's history is not about being able to amass wealth to higher butchers and cooks to put on ships. How about a people's history not those of masters and monarchs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.250.100 (talk) 00:32, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

More regional variations
The regional variations section is lacking quite a bit of information. For example, in the northeastern United States, apple pie is traditionally served with a slice of cheddar cheese melted on top.


 * Did Howard Zinn write about pie? Rivertorch (talk) 06:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, you have not cited any reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 15:04, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: You have made no edit request in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ", so it is unclear what you want added.

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2014
165.24.201.197 (talk) 15:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Feel free to resubmit your request, providing such information and any reliable sources required to verify your changes. Thanks, Nici  Vampire  Heart  16:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Pizza pie is not a pie!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pizza pie is not a pie. A pizza pie is just other name for a pizza and is in no way a pie. TAKE IT OFF THE LIST OF SAVORY PIES. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.203.102.171 (talk) 03:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No need to yell. I tend to agree with anon, though. The article is not dealing with the word "pie", but the pie as a culinary topic. In that context pizza is a quite separate category of dish.
 * Peter Isotalo 10:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I also agree. Done. No more pizza in the list of savory pies. Geoff  TC 19:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * But calzone?-24.130.51.254 (talk) 05:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, a pizza is clearly something other than a pie, but a calzone: how does it differ from a fried pie, pasty or pork pie? They look a lot the same. The distinguishing feature may be the crust: a calzone's crust is yeast-raised bread, while the others are encased in various pastry doughs. But if the crust is how a pie is defined, what about key lime and cheesecake? They are (usually) made with crumb crusts. And so it goes... Geoff TC 20:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Pizza is definitely a pie! A pizza pie!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.78.196.36 (talk) 00:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I would have to agree. If "pizza pie" didn't come from pies, where did it come from? I don't think a item would have a name of another item that it is totally irrelevant to. Buscus 3 (talk) 02:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Pizza is not a pie for the most part - the toppings are "on" the pizza as opposed to "in" the pie - honourable mentions go to calzones and deep-dish

Too Many Pics
There are too many pictures at the top of the history section. I would move some of them down myself, but I don't know how. Can someone do that? Thanks. Buscus 3 (talk) 02:53, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

9500BC
Can we find a second source for this claim under History? I find the existing source unconvincing. It seems to be a random article from the Internet which simply asserts the fact. The rest of the paragraph (and source) goes on to talk about dates in the 2-1000BC range, which is entirely believable given the known history of Ancient Egypt which didn't even exist as an empire until around 4-5000BC, to my knowledge. Agriculture didn't develope in North Africa either until around 6000BC, if I recall. Adcoon (talk) 12:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The source actually says, "Historians have recorded that the roots of pie can loosely be traced back to the ancient Egyptians during the Neolithic Period or New Stone Age beginning around 9500 BC." That is different than what our article stated. I rephrased to remove the date. VQuakr (talk) 23:26, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2015
While attending a Muscular Dystrophy Association banquet at age nine, Foster asked if he could address the audience.[2] "I was anxious because I had never done it before, but when I got up there I didn't want to stop," he recalled.[3] To the surprise of his parents, Foster demonstrated a flair for communication; this in turn led to his choice as a national MDA Goodwill Ambassador (formerly known as an MDA Poster Child) for two consecutive years (2012 and 2013).[4]

In this role, Foster appeared on the annual MDA telethon, by then called the MDA Show of Strength, visited numerous MDA corporate and business sponsors (including Lowe's and Harley Davidson), and met many celebrities (including singers Taylor Swift, Pitbull, Faith Hill and Tim McGraw, among others).[2][5] Foster also dealt frequently with the media and appeared in various MDA national promotional materials, including video public service announcements and MDA "shamrocks."

He has also served as MDA Goodwill Ambassador for the Charlotte, North Carolina, area.

"My favorite part of the job," explained Foster of his Goodwill Ambassador role, "is meeting new people and being able to thank the sponsors and supporters in person who help make an impact in the lives of people just like me. Every dollar and every cent really does count, and my mission is to have fun while spreading the word about MDA and its mission to help people living with muscle disease."[5]

"Most kids my age don't come across opportunities like the ones I've had. . . ," he also observed. "I've experienced so many new things and met wonderful people along the way. I just want to keep speaking from my heart and doing what I love most to inspire people to support a cause that is close to me and my family."[5]

More recent activities[edit source | edit] Foster remains active as an MDA fundraiser and independent MD spokesperson, participating in such fundraising efforts as "Muscle Team, Muscle Walk, Lock-Ups, Shamrocks, mobile kickoffs, Fill the Boot, golf tournaments and social events."[5] His walk team, Bryson's Racers, has raised tens of thousands of dollars for the MDA.[6]

Other interests[edit source | edit] Foster's speaking skills resulted in a voice actor role in the app Little Ashby: Star Reporter, developed by “Entertainment Tonight” host and MDA National ALS Ambassador Nancy O'Dell. Foster performed the voice of child cameraperson "Arty."[7]

A sports fan, Foster plans to pursue a career in sports, either as a football player, coach, or announcer.[8]

External links[edit source | edit] "2012 MDA Show of Strength: Bryson Foster Profile," MDA video, 2012. "2013 MDA Shamrocks PSA featuring Bryson Foster," MDA video, 2013. "On the Road with the Fosters," MDA video, ca. 2013 "Bryson's Buzz," official Bryson Foster page on Facebook "Bryson Foster," official Bryson Foster page on Twitter References[edit source | edit] Jump up ^ "Bryson Foster". Muscular Dystrophy Association. Retrieved 6 April 2014. ^ Jump up to: a b Pacek, Jessica Groover (2013). "Concord natives out front in muscular dystrophy fight". Independent Tribune. Retrieved 6 April 2014. Jump up ^ "Bryson Foster: Making a muscle in his Q6 Edge". Pride Mobility Products Corporation. Retrieved 6 April 2014. Jump up ^ Ruebens, Lindsay (23 September 2013). "Concord teen wraps up second year as MDA ambassador". Charlotte Observer. Retrieved 6 April 2014. ^ Jump up to: a b c d "North Carolina Boy Returns as MDA National Goodwill Ambassador". PRWEB. Retrieved 6 April 2014. Jump up ^ Darnell, Christina (19 February 2012). "Concord boy stumps for MDA". Charlotte Observer. Retrieved 7 April 2014. Jump up ^ "Bryson Animated Voiceover Debut". Muscular Dystrophy Association. Retrieved 6 April 2014. Jump up ^ Rivera, Steve. "Bryson Foster Named MDA's 2012 National Goodwill Ambassador". Muscular Dystrophy Association. Retrieved 6 April 2014. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silent hill boy 2001 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Unable to Add Interlanguage Links
While trying to add a link to this article in fawiki, I noticed that this article is missing links for many other languages. For some reason I'm unable to add any of them. Can somebody help me with that? Thanks. BlueBlack (talk) 20:43, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2016
CheerSuperStar02 (talk) 19:57, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

i love pie and i know this topic sooooo well
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  JTP ( talk • contribs) 21:19, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2017
Please add Elderberry Pie and Peach Pie to the list of Sweet Pies. I have a picture of an Elderberry Pie I just made that I can contribute. Stevenmramsey (talk) 13:32, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: Here's the thing: the other pies listed under sweet pies have their own articles. Elderberry pie doesn't have its own article (and seems unlikely to). Peach pie probably should but doesn't. (It just has an entry at List of pies, tarts and flans, with a circular link.) For consistency's sake, it's probably better not to have red-linked entries. However, the article does have pictures of two sweet pies (raisin and pear) without accompanying text entry or article. If you upload the picture of the elderberry pie and reactivate this request, I don't see why the picture couldn't be added. (Or, better still, forget the image and just upload the actual pie!) Rivertorch   FIRE WATER   04:09, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Contradiction in lead
First sentence says covers or contains, then we learn it might not have a top or bottom crust. Doug Weller talk 19:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)