Talk:Piet Mondrian

Name change, when?
This article contradicts itself. First it is said that Mondriaan changed his name te Mondrian between 1905 and 1907, then it is stated that he changed when he went to Paris in 1912. At least one of those statements must be false.

Dranghek (talk) 19:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Grammer
The antepenultimate paragraph ("Much of his art is ... much fun to contemplate their development in art history.") seems to be two or more sentences mashed together. Can anybody suggest a correction? Heron

Just for the record: I've queried on Talk:Art whether this picture really is by Mondrian (it is extremely atypical at best). If anybody knows it is and can tell us what it's called and what year it is from, that would be very useful. --Camembert


 * Well, no reply here, and no reply on Talk:Art (not even after I solicted one from User:Dmn who uploaded the image). I have serious doubts that it is by Mondrian, as I say, so I have removed it from the article pending some evidence that it is. The image in question is Image:Colourthree.jpg. --Camembert

Namechange - Mondriaan or Mondrian?
Why is this page called Piet Mondrian when his correct name is Piet Mondriaan? This Mondrian page should be a redirect to Mondriaan and that page should hold the article instead of a redirect to Mondrian. I tried to correct this but some ignoramus reversed it. 213.51.209.230 18:59, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

For your information: In Dutch it is still Piet Mondriaan, but he changed his name in Paris to Mondrian, maybe to be better understandable for Frenchman. Ellywa 23:59, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * But was that an official namechange? In Spain I call myself 'Quique del Prado' because that is the Spanish equivalent of my name. But if there were a Wikipedia article on me (hey, there's a thought .... :) ) I'd want it to be titled 'Dirk van der Made' (even on the Spanish Wikipedia). That he signed his work with 'Mondrian' is irrelevant - that would then have been his artist's name. What counts is if he officially changed his name. Anyone know this? DirkvdM 07:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * No reactions here, but I also asked at the Dutch Wikipedia and there someone said it was probably not an official namechange. So I'll move the page to 'Piet Mondriaan'. DirkvdM 06:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Correction, I've requested the move because it's already been moved, so it takes an administrator to do this. DirkvdM 06:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm...If he is better known to English speakers as Mondrian, the page should be at Mondrian. It doesn't matter if he legally chaged his name or not, he changed the common usage of his name (at least outside Holland). sjorford #£@%&$?!  08:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

He is known to English speakers as Mondrian, as the references make clear. That is where the article should be. --Henrygb 21:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * As the Dutch article says: "known in later life as Piet Mondrian". It should stay here. Septentrionalis 23:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I forgot, I came across this 'common usage' thing before. I also notice that the article on Rembrandt van Rijn is titled simply 'Rembrandt'. I rather disagree with this policy. The common names should certainly redirect to the relevant articles, but an encyclopedia should educate, not perpetuate mistakes. Just as 'Beethoven' redirects to Ludwig van Beethoven. But if it's a policy I'll just leave it. But then why isn't the Beethoven article titled just 'Beethoven'? Or, worse, 'von Beethoven'? And the article on Christopher Columbus not just 'Columbus'? Then again, if you adhere to the strict name, it should have been 'Cristóbal Colón', with the accents and all, and I wouldn't be in favour of that. Come to think of it, he was Italian, so it should be 'Cristoforo Colombo'. Rats, I outsmarted myself (and that smarts). :) Ah well, I'll just leave it. There's no easy answer here (as if there ever is anywhere...). DirkvdM 09:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rembrandt (and Christopher Columbus) are not mistakes; they are both established, if odd, English usage. H.W. Fowler would have called them sturdy indefensibles. Don't educate; please leave them alone. Septentrionalis 04:32, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't educate?? You've got to be joking. What other purpose does an encyclopedia have? Now this is the wrong talk page for this, but doesn't it make more sense to redirect the commonly known name 'Rembrandt' to the proper (full) name 'Rembrandt van Rijn'? DirkvdM 08:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The point of an encyclopedia is to provide easy access to information. I think it would be safe to say that the overwhelming majority of people looking for this article would be searching for Mondrian, not Mondriaan. Cross-referencing from the Dutch spelling just adds a needless extra step. I don't think it's any less educational to place the article in the most obvious place, as long as his original name is mentioned in the text. There's a difference between education and pedantry.
 * The Rembrandt page is now under Rembrandt Harmenszoon van Rijn. This was a necessity, given the other uses of the word. uriah923(talk) 20:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
I believe this article is really excellent. In fact, I was surprised how good it was when I first came to wikipedia, given the lackluster state of articles concerning some other artists. Perhaps it is time to submit it to peer review. Though there are some obvious holes, such as a lack of info on his personal life, I think this is quite close to becoming featured article worthy. Any thoughts, objections?--Sophitus 03:52, May 29, 2005 (UTC)


 * About his personal life: there isn't really much to tell about it. Mondrian was one of the few artists where his life was really all about his art. He didn't have children and had little interest in marriage. There are a few things which might be interesting, but those focus on his relationships with other artists (such as Theo van Doesburg), where it is, again, about his art.
 * Husky 10:45, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

some questions I d like to find answers to
I would like to know: does anyone know if Gestalt Psychology, popular after WWII, had any influence? His Compositions seem to reverberate, like the figure foreground principle(the two faces with the vase). Also, I want to say he had a contribution, while in Europe to the Bauhaus-who came first Lissistzky or Mondrian- /Mondrian was the father of modern advertising./

Looking at his compositions makes my eyes reverberate. Does this happen to any one else

And most importantly to me, Is this pure abstraction,or rather, is he a formalist/aesthetician, or what? jazzman

Another question, An art teacher once told me that past of his theory featured a kind of "back to basics" approach to graphic comunication, and that it was from there that the black grid surged, since it consist of horizontal and vertical lines are the most basic and constitute a large part of all written and graphic language, there's only maybe 1 slight reference to this when it is said "I believe it is possible that, through horizontal and vertical lines constructed with awareness, but not with calculation, led by high intuition, and brought to harmony and rhythm, these basic forms of beauty, supplemented if necessary by other direct lines or curves, can become a work of art, as strong as it is true." which still has no citation, and is supposedly a quoting mondrian.

is there any kind of evidence of this —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angry Mushi (talk • contribs) 18:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Copyright question
Concerns were raised that this article infringes on ; however, it is my conclusion that the uploader of the content to Wikipedia is the same person as the author of that article, and so we have been granted a licensed under the GFDL for that content. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Kelly, your conclusion is correct. I am the author of both. If I was supposed to make that clear, I apologize. Craigz 05:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Why does this article list the correct pronunciation of his name as "Moan-dree-on"? Neither the Oxford English Dictionary nor the American Heritage Dictionary lists this as a possible pronunciation. I've changed it to "mon-dree-on" to better approximate the correct pronunciation according to those references. (I used "moan-dree-on" in conversation the other night, because I read it in this article, and was scorned!)

POV?
There are a lot of portions of this article that strike me as sounding pretty worshipful, more like an insert at an art museum, than a non POV description of the artist. "He was a great artist" for example is an opinion not shared by all. It almost sounds more like an artistic hagiography. Andacar 16:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

"Holland has produced three great painters [...] the first was Rembrandt, the second was Van Gogh, and the third is Mondrian."

Katherine Dreier, catalog Société Anonyme, Brooklyn Museum, New York, 1926

"Piet Mondrian, 1872-1944 Greatest Dutch Painter of our Time" by Jay Bradley edited on Knickerbocker Weekly Free Netherlands February 14 1944, Vol. 3 Number 51 pp. 16-24

"Mondrian was the greatest Dutch painter of our time"

Alfred Barr said that that at the PM's funeral during his oration. M. Seuphor Piet Mondrian Life and Work pp.190

Ethnoflorence (talk) 03:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC)ethnoflorence

Wrong link
The link named The Red Mill in the list of Mondrian's works leads to a wrong article. --Trilby*foxglove 21:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for an Image
'View from the Dunes with Beach and Piers, Domburg', oil and pencil on cardboard painting by Mondrian, 1909, Museum of Modern Art, (New York City).jpg== Image:'View from the Dunes with Beach and Piers, Domburg', oil and pencil on cardboard painting by Mondrian, 1909, Museum of Modern Art, (New York City).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 23:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Colour dispute
There is a dispute about how his paintings should be described in terms of colour. This currently seems to be being argued on the basis of personal observation. I have found a reference, namely the Tate gallery which says:
 * Returned to Holland in 1914 and step by step evolved a more simplified abstract style which he called Neo-Plasticism, restricted to the three primary colours and to a grid of black vertical and horizontal lines on a white ground

If you want to change this definition, then first please find a source to do so and discuss on this talk page. Tyrenius (talk) 00:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Strictly speaking, the Tate is certainly correct. But you know how artists are: . Always exceptions. Seriously, though, rapid research finds that after 1920 he abandoned gray for the abstraction as described above. JNW (talk) 00:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As an uninvolved observer (called in by a report on WP:AIV due to incivility by an anon editor) I'd say that the article itself appears a bit self-contradictory. The second paragraph of Piet Mondrian definitely mentions grey more than once. Perhaps the problem is that whereas that section is talking about early work, the reference from the Tate speaks of later evolution, and the article lead-in doesn't make it clear that there was evolution. I'd also note that at least one instance of PM's later work such as Broadway Boogie-Woogie uses a colour described by the New York Museum of Modern Art as "light gray". Tonywalton Talk 00:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As you say, always the exception. As most of Mondrian's notable paintings are his black line, primary color paintings I think the opening covers that basic point well. Thank you again however for your input. Modernist (talk) 01:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

He undoubtedly does use grey in some works. We can see that with our own eyes! However, sources seem to talk about his use of black lines and three primaries, as in the Tate example. It's not up to us to rewrite the accepted evaluation. The Tate also has a definition of Neo-Plasticism, which allows for grey:
 * Neo-Plasticism was in fact an ideal art in which the basic elements of painting - colour, line form - were used only in their purest, most fundamental state: only primary colours and non-colours, only squares and rectangles, only straight and horizontal or vertical lines.

"Non-colours" because grey isn't a colour. It seems appropriate, if grey is going to be mentioned, that it is not done so in a way that makes it equivalent to the primaries. Tyrenius (talk) 01:34, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mondrian broadway boogie-woogie.gif
Image:Mondrian broadway boogie-woogie.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Unexplained list needs explanation
Under the section "Death" of the article, this sentence:

"On 3 February 1944, a memorial, attended by nearly 200, was held for Mondrian, at the Universal Chapel on Lexington Ave and 52nd St. in New York City."

is immediately followed by three indented lists of names in each of three categories (two lists of artists, one of notable others). No explanation is given for what these lists of names is doing there.

1. I suspect that this is supposed to be a list of those notables in the art world in attendance at the memorial. If this is to be included in the article, this needs to be explained.

2. Is there really any reason to include a list of notables in the art world who attended the memorial? I don't think so.Daqu (talk) 17:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment
See the top of the page: discussion now closed. Geometry guy 17:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

References In pop culture
I removed the following trivia. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In the opening sequence of Green Acres, there is a Mondrian visible in the New York Apartment.
 * This is unreferenced, and tells us nothing about Mondrian. It would be trivia even if it were on the Green Acres article.
 * Molly Ringwald's character (Andie) in Pretty in Pink prominently displays three Mondrian paintings in her room.
 * This is unreferenced, and would be trivia even on the Pretty in Pink article.
 * The Silverchair album Young Modern (released 2007) features Mondrian influenced cover art, and even the title of the album's first single, "Straight Lines", is a reference to Mondrian. On their recent Australian tour, their stage set up featured a Mondrian style backdrop which lit up in different colours throughout the show.
 * This is unreferenced, possibly original research.
 * The 1970s television show The Partridge Family utilized Mondrian-inspired design, particularly in the painting of the show's signature school bus.
 * This is unreferenced; even if it were referenced it would tell us nothing about Mondrian.
 * The mathcore band, Botch, released a song titled "Mondrian Was a Liar", likely referring to Mondrian's subtlely deceptive works.
 * This is speculation ("likely&hellip;"), probably original research ("subtlely deceptive&hellip;"?); even if it were referenced it would tell us nothing about Mondrian.
 * In an early episode of the British TV show Hustle, a gang of conmen scam a crooked gallery owner out of £500,000 using a forged Mondrian purporting to demonstrate that Mondrian, rather than Pablo Picasso, invented cubism.
 * This is information about a Hustle episode, not about Mondrian.
 * French designer Yves Saint-Laurent, uses Mondrian's art motif in his fall/winter 65/66 collection.
 * This is unreferenced. What is "Mondrian's art motif"?  Even if it were referenced it would tell us nothing about Mondrian.
 * Tom Wolfe's journalistic endeavor The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamline Baby,references Mondrian dozens of times in reference to the similar colors used on 1960's hot-rods.
 * A reporter mentioned Mondrian in a report? This tells us nothing about Mondrian, except that the journalist had heard of him.
 * Hopscotch (Julio Cortázar novel) has several references to Mondrian. In Chapter 9 Etienne and Oliveira debate the artistic significance of Mondrian compared of that with Paul Klee. In Chapter 19 La Maga declares that Oliveira is "a Mondrian" while she herself is "a Vieira da Silva", referring to Maria Helena Vieira da Silva.
 * A book mentions Mondrian? This tells us nothing about Mondrian, except that the author knew something about him.
 * In the opening title sequence for the TV show 'Green Acres' (1965 - 1971) a Mondrian-like painting can be seen in the scenes that take place at the New York City apartment.
 * This is original research.

Bad fakes or really bad photography
Please compare the images on http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/mondrian/ with Composition 10 and Composition with Yellow, Blue, and Red currently included in the Piet Mondrian article. Composition 10 is also shown at the Abstract art "gallery" - and actually looks like drawn with MS paint. - Armin B. Wagner (talk) 15:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The one on the given link looks more real, and is similar to others google image search, so possible switch of current pictures, or deleting

Added Picture
Added picture of Piet Mondrian's "Composition II in Red, Blue, and Yellow," because it is one of his better known works to the general public--Crab182

Lists
These lists appeared at the end of the "death" section, with no context or explanation, so I have removed them: Johnbod (talk) 13:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Émigré artists: Alexander Archipenko, Herbert Bayer, Marc Chagall, Marcel Duchamp, Max Ernst, Jean Hélion, Frederick Kiesler, Moise Kisling, Fernand Léger, Matta, László Moholy-Nagy, Amédée Ozenfant, Hans Richter, and Kurt Seiligman.
 * American artists: Peter Blume, Ilya Bolotowsky, Alexander Calder, Burgoyne Diller, Suzy Frelinghuysen, Fritz Glarner, Carl Holty, Harry Holtzman, Ibram Lassaw, George L.K. Morris, Robert Motherwell, Charles Shaw, Charmion Von Wiegand, and Abraham Walkowitz.
 * Notable others: Valentine Dudendsing, Katherine Dreier, Albert Gallatin, Sigfried Giedion, Clement Greenberg, Peggy Guggenheim, Sam Kootz, Julien Lévy, Henry McBride, Karl Nierendorf, Dwight MacDonald, Hilla Rebay, Meyer Schapiro, James Johnson Sweeny, and James Thrall Soby.


 * Six of those people attended Mondrian's memorial, according the New Netherland Institute. Perhaps the above list of names is just a much more extensive record of who attended that memorial. Xenxax (talk) 03:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The funeral service had been held in UNIVERSAL CHAPEL, at the corner of 52nd Street and Lexington Avenue.


 * Alfred H. Barr Jr Director of the Museum of Modern Art and T. Elink-Schuurman, Consul-General of the Netherlands, delivered the funeral orations before some two hundred people.


 * For the list see:
 * Michael Seuphor: Piet Mondrian Life and Work pp 190.
 * The source of the Seuphor list is: Piet Mondrian, 1872-1944 Greatest Dutch Painter of our Time by Jay Bradley edited on Knickerbocker Weekly Free Netherlands February 14 1944, Vol.3 Number 51 pp. 16-24. Here you can find more details and names.
 * Another very nice source on the PM's funeral is the interview with Ilya Bolotowsky by Susan Larsen edited on Art in America September/October 1976 pp.71-76.


 * I do not understand the criteria for selection of the names published on the list edited.


 * I do not understand how anyone can not include names like Valentine Dudensing Valentine Gallery, Katherine Dreier Soc Anonyme, Albert Gallatin Museum of Living Art, Peggy Guggenheim Art of This Century, Hilla Von Rebay Art of Tomorrow, the great JJ Sweeney, Hans Richter, Charmion van Wiegand and all the guys of the AAA..... some of the most important friends collectors and supporters of Piet Mondrian.


 * I don't see the name of Pierre Matisse in the list, he was present, Pierre Matisse Gallery, nobody know something about his historical exhibition of 1942 in New York with the European artists in exile?


 * I would like to know who is the author of this article, source of Wikipedia for the Piet Mondrian edit page!
 * In the article there are WRONG quotes like this: "...The war had already started so it was not easy to get transportation, but somehow he was successful and arrived in New York City in late 1939. Although he did not know it then, but New York would be his last stop on his meandering life time journey..." ! Piet Mondrian arrived in New York October 3, 1940!


 * This http://www.mondriaan.nl/ this http://mondriantrust.com/ or this http://drs.library.yale.edu/HLTransformer/HLTransServlet?stylename=yul.ead2002.xhtml.xsl&pid=beinecke:mondrian&clear-stylesheet-cache=yes  are quite different than this for example http://www.snap-dragon.com/Mondrian.html, do you know the difference? Ethnoflorence (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * If the sources are sound, perhaps more (or even all?) of the notable attendees could be added to the existing paragraph in the Death section. I think it is surprising that so many notable artists and other "celebrities" attended. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * What source(s) support(s) the claim that Pierre Matisse attended? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: Matta was Roberto Matta, Hans Richter was Hans Richter (artist) and Charles Shaw was Charles Green Shaw. "Kurt Seiligman" was Kurt Seligmann, "Sam Kootz" was Samuel M. Kootz, "Julien Lévy" was Julien Levy and "James Johnson Sweeny" was James Johnson Sweeney. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:48, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Why is surprising? Piet Mondrian was a real well known artist of the New York scene. The references I have added are 'sure' and not questionable, you can ask confirm at info@mondriantrust.com. About Pierre Matisse you can find his name in the 1944's Knickerbocker article. Ethnoflorence (talk) 14:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh well, must be just me then. Do you mean "Knickerbocker, Weekly Free Netherlands February 14 1944, Vol. 3 Number 51 pp. 16-24? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:18, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes Martin exact. The 1944's article is the source of the Michael Seuphor list. For some 'anecdotes' you can add also the Susan Larsen interview edited on Art in America. Ethnoflorence (talk) 15:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry again Martin, I have linked pp.190 of the Seuphor book so you can find here a partial list and the confirm of the 1944's source: "...Here are some of the name mentioned in the Knickerbocker Weekly....."

https://archive.org/stream/pietmondrianlife00seup#page/190/mode/1up The funeral was organized by Harry Holtzman. An interesting source is: Harry Holtzman Paper: Harry Holtzman, Letter to Carel Mondriaan Jan 21 1946 Beineke Rare Book & Manuscript Library http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/

Ethnoflorence (talk) 17:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * So can we just use as a ref: Seuphor, M. (1956), Piet Mondrian: Life and Work, New York: H. N. Abrams, p.190.? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:28, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

We Should consider that the list is not, by admission of Seuphor, complete, but is surely a better 'ref.' than the New Netherland Institue. What about to add both the sources? (Seuphor and also the 1944's one?) Ethnoflorence (talk) 17:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Date for Composition with Yellow, Blue and Red is incorrect
The work illustrated is not the 1921 painting with that title, but rather a work from 1937-42. The use of doubled lines and lines of color is a development of the late 1930s and not typical of Mondrian's work of the 1920s. While it is true that the 1921 date is frequently given on the web, this is an obvious error. Please consult the definitive catalog of Mondrian's work by Yve-Alain Bois and others. I trained with Dr. Bois and I am an art history Ph.D. I have again corrected the date. Please do not change it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.126.169.83 (talk) 12:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

See also the Tate website at http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=999999961&workid=9603&artistid=1651&searchid=10275&tabview=display —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.126.169.83 (talk) 12:54, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You might like to add a reference. See WP:REFB.  Ty  11:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Title of Composition with Yellow, Blue and Red
As someone is trying to change the title of the work, it should be noted that Tate, linked here, calls the 1937-42 work Composition with Yellow, Blue and Red and so should we.  freshacconci  talk talk  20:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

For all the doubts you can contact info@mondriantrust.com Ethnoflorence

JOOP M. JOOSTEN: B279/308: Composition (with red?)(unfinished?). 1937 /Composition with Yellow, Blue, and Red. 1939-42, 1937/1942 (Second State). SEUPHOR: 576 (608)/415: Composition avec rouge, Jaune et bleu / Composition with Red, Yellow and Blue 1931-41. OTTOLENGHI: 453: Composizione con rosso, giallo e blu, 1939-42. Ethnoflorence (talk) 14:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

So the title is right and the web source, working with a legal copyright's license is reliable. Circumstance that should always be taken into account when accessing information on the web, unfortunately most of the web sites are using unlicensed material, creating enormous damage to the reputation of the artists. Ethnoflorence (talk) 16:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Description of "Lozenge Composition with Yellow, Black, Blue, Red, and Gray" error?
The article describes "Lozenge Composition with Yellow, Black, Blue, Red, and Gray" as having coloured lines. However, a Google Image search shows that it does not. See also this flickr photo of the piece hanging in a museum Themystic ca (talk) 15:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mondrian in Bauhaus
The Mondrian/Bauhaus connection seems important enough to mention in the article, yet it is totally omitted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.6.134 (talk) 14:21, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Unsourced and inadequately sourced content
Though it's been reverted, there was merit to this removal of unsourced or poorly sourced content. In fact, the entire section on wall works needs references. JNW (talk) 17:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

BOIS YVE ALAIN ed 'L'Atelier de Mondrian: Recherches et dessins (Paris Macula 1982)' MONDRIAN PIET, 'Hand written notes for an interview', Box 5 Folder 2 Piet Mondrian papers Beinecke Library Yale University New Haven CT Gift of Harry Holtzman, 1983-1985 http://drs.library.yale.edu/HLTransformer/HLTransServlet?stylename=yul.ead2002.xhtml.xsl&pid=beinecke:mondrian&clear-stylesheet-cache=yes HOLTZMAN HARRY, 'Interview with Harry Holtzman', 'Studio' April 15 1944 pp 20-22 The New Yorker HOLTY CARL 'Mondrian in New York A Memoir' in ARTS vol 31 n 10 sept 1957 pp. 17-21 HOLTZMAN HARRY 'Piet Mondrian's Enviroment' in 'Mondrian: The Process of Works' (New York Pace Gallery 1970) pp.4-10 HOLTZMAN HARRY 'Introduction: New York Studio 1943-44' in 'Mondrian in New York' (Tokyo: Galerie Tokoro 1993) pp. 64-67 POSTMA FRANS and CEES BOEKRAAD eds '26 Rue du Depart : Mondrian's Studio in Paris 1921 1936' (Berlin: Ernst & Sohn, 1995) SEUPHOR MICHEL 'Piet Mondrian life and work' (London Thames and Hudson 1956) WHITE MICHAEL MANACORDA FRANCESCO ed 'Mondrian and his Studios Colour in Space' Tate Publishing (Milan London 2014)

Another important source are the letters Piet Mondrian wrote to Harry Holtzman today in the RKD ARCHIVE in Den Haag http://www.mondriaan.nl/, http://www.mondriaan.nl/news/view/mondriaan_editie_project.

Harry Holtzman, after PM's death, took of the last PM's studio a color film and color photos, Fritz Glarner b/w photos. Source Arhief Robert P. Welsh folder 0632 RKD ARCHIVE and Piet Mondrian / Harry Holtzman Trust Archive Ethnoflorence (talk) 15:57, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It's unclear if you are responding to the previous post by JNW dated 3 December 2013 (UTC), or are instead simply adding some useful sources. Did you mean to start a new thread, perhaps? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm adding references on the wall works section, if it is the wrong section please help me to put in another. thank and sorry Ethnoflorence (talk) 16:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * In any case and if you need I can to give references and sources also for the other sections of the Piet Mondrian page Ethnoflorence (talk) 16:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, you need to add them into the article, if they do support what is written there. By the way, you do not need to sign twice - just use "four tildes". Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I have understand the procedure now. I'll try, thank you Ethnoflorence (talk) 16:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Just use "four tildes" to sign? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I would like to edit these titles in 'References'

Bois, Yve-Alain (ed.), (1982). L'Atelier de Mondrian: Recherches et dessins, Paris: Macula Holty, Carl (September 1957). Mondrian in New York: A Memoir, Arts, vol.31, no.10, pp. 17-21. Holtzman, Harry (15 April 1944). Studio (Interview with Harry Holtzman) The New Yorker, pp. 20-22. Holtzman, Harry (1970). Piet Mondrian's Enviroment in Mondrian: The Process of Work ,New York: Pace Gallery, pp. 4-10. Holtzman, Harry (1993). Introduction: Piet Mondrian New York Studio, 1943-44 in Mondrian in New York ,Tokio: Galerie Tokoro, pp. 64-67. Postma, Frans and Cees Boekraad (eds.). 26 Rue du Depart: Mondrian's Studio in Paris, 1921-1936 ,Berlin: Ernst & Sohn. Troy, Nancy J. (December 1978). Piet Mondrian's Atelier, Arts Magazine, vol.53, no. 4, pp.82-87. Manacorda, Francesco and White Michael (eds.) (2014). Mondrian and his Studios Colour in Space, London, Milan: Grafos. ISBN 978-1-84976-265-6″ Ethnoflorence (talk) 14:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If these source specifically support article content they should (each) be added, in line, at the appropriate place. If not, they could be added in a "Further reading" section, although such sections usually contain entire books, not just snippets of articles or a few pages of a book. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I understand. I have mentioned snippest of articles or few pages of a book to select references that have their materials sources in Piet Mondrian's archives like the RKD, the Piet Mondrian/Holtzman Trust Archive or the Beineke  Rare Book & Manuscript Library of the Yale University. Unfortunately circulate information written by authors who do not have access to the archives but simply copied by others, this causes confusion, I think the example of the list of the funeral of Piet Mondrian should teach us something. In any case, I posted those resources only becuase supported by archival independent direct sources. Ethnoflorence (talk) 16:17, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Dear Martin, in any case I would like to have the consensus of the other editors... and your technical help. Ethnoflorence (talk) 17:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I have added the MoMa Press Releases of June 1983 and August 1995 for the 2 exhibitions at the MoMa mentioned in this Museum for the Wall Works. Ethnoflorence (talk) 19:59, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Wall Works
I would like to add at the page that the Wall Works composition number 5 and 6 were exhibited for the first time in 1982 at the Sidney Janis Gallery of New York in the Show: Mondrian + Brancusi. And that the wall compositions n 2 and 3 are exhibited in the Tate Liverpool show "Mondrian and his Studios" ( 6 June - 5 October 2014). Ethnoflorence (talk)

References for both the exhibitions are the relative catalogs sources in the files of the Piet Mondrian/Holtman Trust Archive and for the first also the Harry Holtzman Paper Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University http://drs.library.yale.edu/HLTransformer/HLTransServlet?stylename=yul.ead2002.xhtml.xsl&pid=beinecke:holtzman&clear-stylesheet-cache=yes


 * Before editing, Ethnoflorence, please familiarize yourself with the proper manner in which to do so: punctuation, spacing, brackets, spelling, lower and upper case, grammar, etc. Post here first, so we can discuss and make corrections before you publish. Thanks in advance. Coldcreation (talk) 23:55, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. English is not my mother language.

The Piet Mondrian's New York Studio Wall Compositions (The Wall Works) numbers II and III 1943-1944, are shown at the Tate Liverpool exhibition Mondrian and his Studios, Colour in Space (6 June - 5 October 2014).

Ethnoflorence (talk) 00:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Not sure I understand. Why would you like to include this in the encyclopedic article? Coldcreation (talk) 11:27, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Because it is the first time they are exhibited in England in the largest ever UK exhibition of Mondrian's works. Because in this exhibition that is devoted to the Piet Mondrian studios (Paris,England,NewYork), Wall Works 2 and 3 (together with the collection of jazz records by Piet Mondrian and the film of the last Studio took by Harry Holtzman in 1944) are the only original material not only present at the Tate, but among the very few existing, documenting Piet Mondrian's environmental compositions and studios. This is why their presence is important and should be mentioned. Because in the References in Culture, the encyclopedic article mentions that the Liverpool exhibition 'includes a life-sized reconstruction of his Paris Studio". The article refers to the The Frans Postma modern 'reconstruction' of 26 Rue du Depart Paris Studio that is not composed of any original material. So in this way Wekepedia refers to a reconstruction  ignoring the presence of two of the very few original material and Wall Works?  Because they are exhibited rarely and only on special occasions and in selected museums, such as the TATE and for the present commemoration of the 70th anniversary of Piet Mondrian's death.  Tate Liverpool Room 6 of the exhibition link: http://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-liverpool/exhibition/mondrian-and-his-studios/mondrian-and-his-studios-room-guide-5

and: Manacorda Francesco, White Michael (2014) Mondrian and his Studios Colour in Space, Tate Publishing: Foreword pp.7-9,  pp 143-147 and Back cover of the catalog.

In commemoration of the 70th anniversary of the Dutch Artist death, the Piet Mondrian's New York Studio Wall Compositions (The Wall Works) numbers II and III 1943-1944, are shown at the Tate Liverpool exhibition: Mondrian and his Studios, Colour in Space (6 June - 5 October 2014).

or

In Commemoration of the 70h anniversary of the Dutch Artist death, the Piet Mondrian's New York Studio Wall Compositions (The Wall Works) numbers II and III 1943-1944, are shown, for the first time in England, at the Tate Liverpool exhibition: Mondrian and his Studios, Colour and Space (6 June-5 October 2014).

The definition: "Piet Mondrian's New York Studio Wall Compositions (The Wall Works) number .... 1943-1944" used in the Catalog and for the labels of the exhibition is the same used in the past 2 MoMa New York exhibitions

Ethnoflorence (talk) 15:11, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Unreferenced section: Wall works
Ethnoflorence, You need to add references to the text you just added about the Wall works. Also, much, if not all, of the text was copy-pasted from other websites. That too will be removed if not modified. Coldcreation (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Ethnoflorence, as Coldcreation has suggested, it might be best if you: "post here first, so we can discuss and make corrections before you publish." Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

First of all Sorry. The first two (1983/1995) are the press release of the MoMa, in both the Wall works are mentioned. Can you help me to understand what I need to do. if the contenute it is wrong, I can remove myself. The other two are the titles of the catalogs of the exhibitions.

Ethnoflorence (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I have removed all the links, if you can help me, I'll thank you a lot.

Ethnoflorence (talk) 21:35, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Dear Coldcreation and Martinevans123,

" [...] before opening it to the public for a six-week exhibition"

'''Holtzman, Harry (15 April 1944). Studio (Interview with Harry Holtzman) The New Yorker, pp. 20-22.'''

could be possible to add it, in line, at the appropriate place (footnotes) ?

In the interview HH explained that first he opened the studio by invitation then putting a notice in the papers and let anybody in. In all three hundred people visited the Studio. "Mostly Student" he said "which...was interesting".

It's possible to see the invite that Harry Holtzman sent to Katherine S. Dreier in her papers / Societe Anonyme Archive http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/collections/highlights/katherine-s-dreier-papers-soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9-anonyme-archive : BOX 24 Folder 710 PIET MONDRIAN, with the text: " [...] You are invited to visit Piet Mondrian studio 15 E 59th st. on Thursday afternoon, March 23, 4.30 to 6.30, PM" (the document is not shared on the web).

Ethnoflorence (talk) 23:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

" [...]After his death, Mondrian’s friend and sponsor in Manhattan, artist Harry Holtzman, and another painter friend, Fritz Glarner, carefully documented the studio on film and in still photographs"

'''Holtzman, Harry (1993). Introduction: Piet Mondrian New York Studio, 1943-44 in Mondrian in New York ,Tokio: Galerie Tokoro, pp. 64-67.'''

You can find confirm of it also in the Museum of Modern Art (New York) Press doc. n 34: First Public Exhibition of Mondrian's Studio Wall Compositions opens at the Museum of Modern Art on July 14: " [...]Information about the studio comes from Mondrian's friend Harry Holtzman, who at the time of the artist's death, filmed and photographed the entire studio, made tracings of the walls to document the arrangements of the squares of colored cardboard, and then removed and preserved the elements".

Just to add about the photos, that the original slides that were made by Harry Holtzman and Fritz Glarner of Mondrian's last studio shortly after he dead were lost in the Archives of Museum of Modern Art until 1971.

Ethnoflorence (talk) 23:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

"[...] At the age of 71 in the fall of 1943, Mondrian moved into his second and final Manhattan studio at 15 East 59th Street, and set about to recreate the environment he had learned over the years was most congenial to his modest way of life and most stimulating to his art. He painted the high walls the same off-white he used on his easel and on the seats, tables and storage cases he designed and fashioned meticulously from discarded orange and apple-crates.[...]"

''' Holtzman, Harry (1970). Piet Mondrian's Enviroment in Mondrian: The Process of Work ,New York: Pace Gallery, pp. 4-10.'''

External links modified
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Degenerate art
There is an article online (link) that claims two of Mondrian's works were on the Degenerate Art Exhibition. Can this be confirmed and if so, put into the article?--Adûnâi (talk) 02:01, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Partial list of works
Removing this section from article. It is nothing more that an unsourced list with occasional external links. If someone cares to create List of works by Piet Mondrian feel free to do so. Note, without proper sourcing, some/many of these titles could correspond to fakes or forgeries. Coldcreation (talk) 16:56, 5 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Girl Writing/Schrijvend meisje (1892)
 * At Work / On the Land. Aan den arbeid / Opt land (1898)
 * Farm building in Het Gooi, Fence and trees in the foreground (1898–1902)
 * Farm building with bridge (1899)
 * The Factory (1900)
 * Willow Grove: Impression of Light and Shadow (c. 1905), oil on canvas, 35 × 45 cm, Dallas Museum of Art
 * Field with Oak Trees at Dusk (1906)
 * Field with Young Trees in the Foreground (1907) Cleveland Museum of Art
 * Farm building with well in daylight (ca.1907)
 * Molen Mill; Mill in Sunlight (1908) External link.
 * Avond Evening; Red Tree (1908) External link.
 * Rij van elf populieren in rood, geel, blauw en groen; Row of eleven poplars in red, yellow, blue and green (1908), Museum de Fundatie
 * Chrysanthemum (1908) Guggenheim Collection.
 * Chrysanthemum (ca.1908)
 * Windmill by the Water (1908)
 * View from the Dunes with Beach and Piers, Domburg (1909)
 * Church in Zoutelande (1909)
 * The Red Tree (1909–10)
 * Amaryllis (1910)
 * Summer, Dune in Zeeland (1910) Guggenheim Collection
 * Spring Sun (Lentezon): Castle Ruin: Brederode (c. late 1909 – early 1910) Dallas Museum of Art, oil on Masonite 62 × 72 cm
 * Evolution (1910–11)
 * The Red Mill (1910–11)
 * Horizontal Tree (1911)
 * Gray Tree (1911) Gemeentemuseum Den Haag
 * Still Life with Ginger Pot I (Cubist) (1911) Guggenheim Collection
 * Still Life with Ginger Pot II (Simplified) (1912) Guggenheim Collection
 * Apple Tree in Bloom (1912)
 * Eucaliptus (1912)
 * Trees (1912–1913)
 * Scaffoldings (1912–1914)
 * Composition in Line and Color; Composition No. II (1913)
 * Oval Composition (Trees) (1913)
 * Tableau No.2/Composition No. VII (1913) Guggenheim Collection
 * Compositie XIV (1913)
 * Church at Damburg/Kerk te Domburg (1914)
 * Composition 8 (1914) Guggenheim Collection
 * Composition No. 10 Pier and Ocean (1915)
 * Ocean 5 (1915) Guggenheim Collection
 * Composition (1916) Guggenheim Collection
 * Composition III with Color Planes (1917)
 * Composition with Color Planes and Gray Lines 1 (1918)
 * Composition with Gray and Light Brown (1918)
 * Composition with Grid VII (1919)
 * Composition Chequerboard, Dark Colors./Compositi (1919)
 * Composition A: Composition with Black, Red, Gray, Yellow, and Blue (1920)
 * Composition with Black, Red, Gray, Yellow, and Blue (1920) External link.
 * Dahlia (1920)
 * Tableau I (1921)
 * Lozenge Composition with Yellow, Black, Blue, Red, and Gray (1921)
 * Composition with Large Blue Plane, Red, Black, Yellow, and Gray (1921)
 * Composition with Blue, Yellow, Black, and Red (1922)
 * Composition #2 (1922)
 * Tableau 2 (1922) Guggenheim Collection
 * Composition with Yellow, Black, Blue, and Grey (1923)
 * Lozenge Composition with Red, Black, Blue, and Yellow (1925)
 * Lozenge Composition with Red, Gray, Blue, Yellow, and Black (1925) External link.
 * Composition with Red, Yellow, and Blue (1927), Cleveland Museum of Art
 * Fox Trot; Lozenge Composition with Three Black Lines (1929)
 * Composition No. III/ Fox Trot B with Black, Red, Blue and Yellow (1929), Yale University Art Gallery
 * Composition with Red and Black (1929) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ItsPatR (talk • contribs) 17:00, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Composition with Yellow Patch (1930)
 * Composition No. 1: Lozenge with Four Lines (1930) Guggenheim Collection
 * Composition with Yellow (1930)
 * Composition with Blue and Yellow (1932)
 * Composition No. III Blanc-Jaune (1935–1942)
 * Rhythm of Straight Lines (1935–1942) Harvard University.
 * Rhythm of Black Lines painting (1935–1942)
 * Composition blanc, rouge et noir or Composition in White, Black and Red (1936)
 * Vertical Composition with Blue and White (1936)
 * Abstraction (1937–42)
 * Composition with Red, Yellow, and Blue (1937–1942)
 * Composition No. 1 with Grey and Red 1938/Composition with Red 1939(1938–1939) Guggenheim Collection
 * Composition No. 8 (1939–1942)
 * Painting #9 (1939–1942)
 * Composition No. 10 (1939–1942)
 * New York City I (1942)
 * Chrysanthemum (1942), Cleveland Museum of Art
 * Trafalgar Square (1939–1943)
 * Broadway Boogie-Woogie (1942–43)
 * Place de la Concorde (1943)
 * Victory Boogie-Woogie (1943–44)
 * Composition Bleue et Jeune (1957)
 * Foxtrott (1967)

Lead description
The lead description says "... regarded as one of the greatest artists of the 20th century. "

I think this would be better as "... regarded as "one of the supreme artists of the 20th century. "

I don't regard a reference to a BBC broadcast, from 41 years ago, an adequate source. Page 9 of Blotcamp (1994) describes him as "one of the great artists of the twentieth century". Not one of the greatest. So that could be added or omitted. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It wouldn’t be better because firstly there are two sources and you’re only quoting one. More importantly, the quotation marks implicate a personal opinion, while the original text was intended to signify a more general - objective - remark on Mondrian’s significance. Thirdly, it’s highly unusual to start a page of an artist by using a singular quote in the lead, I don’t know any article who does that.


 * Last but not least, it’s an opening remark based on among others Hughes’ statement, where he made that is not relevant in my view. Besides The Shock of The New is still highly regarded. 89.205.135.162 (talk) 16:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)


 * As I said, if we want to also add "as one of the great artists" that would be possible. But Blotkamp (1994) does not use the word "greatest". Amalgamating these two sources to produce the phrase "one of the greatest" is WP:OR. What both Hughes and Blotkamp say is personal opinion, albeit expert opinion, so quotes are quite appropriate. I'm sorry I don't fully understand your last point about an "opening remark": whatever appears in the lead section, should also appear somewhere in the main body, as the lead is meant to be a summary. Certainly The Shock of the New may be still highly regarded. So is the book of the same name. But if we want to use the TV broadcast as a source, we'd need to link to an accessible format, such as YouTube or Vimeo, and give the appropriate time code. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:53, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * That last matter is not a problem, as this is free to watch on YouTube. Frankly I don’t understand the problem, the sentence ‘one of the greatest’ seems an adequate paraphrase of Blotkamps book, but more importantly of the general consensus regarding Mondrian’s significance as an artist.


 * In that light I would say that it’s better sourced than most articles, compare for instance Pablo Picasso: ‘ Regarded as one of the most influential artists of the 20th century’ with two sources by MoMA and Tate, not really scholarly. But problematic? I would say no, because everybody knows this is common knowledge. Same goes for Michelangelo: ‘ who exerted an unparalleled influence on the development of Western art’ followed by no source at all.... I take issue with using quotation marks, because then you’re suggesting it’s a personal opinion. 89.205.135.249 (talk) 23:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I think we can leave Picasso and Michelangelo out of this: other artists exist. Those statements by Hughes and Blotkamp are personal opinions. Overall on Wikipedia I have found that written sources, particularly books written by subject matter experts, are preferred to YouTube videos. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:47, 21 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The sentence reflects a general view with regard to Mondrian’s significance, based on e.g. two sources, one by one of the leading art critics of the 20th century and the other by an expert on Mondrian. Not two insignificant sources I would say. Furthermore, I brought up Picasso and Michelangelo because those articles, don’t seem very concerned with this kind of common knowledge. For a lead description this is in my opinion an adequate summary of the overall view on the artist. Lastly, I don’t understand why you’re falling over the fact that Hughes made this statement in the series based on the book, again this sentence is a reflection of the general view on the significance of the artist, not a scholarly debate of different researchers. 84.241.194.217 (talk) 00:05, 22 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Whatever sources are used, I don't see why that's a "general view". It's based on two opinions, one of which uses a different word. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:04, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The same can be said about about the articles on Michelangelo or Picasso, or Newton for that matter. No one is demanding sources explaining that general view. And to what extent is it even an opinion? It’s a reflection of his significance for 20th century art. It is known that Mondrian is generally viewed as one of the most important artists of the 20th century, that is substantiated by a comment of one of the greatest art critics of the 20th century and an expert on Mondrian’s work? What more do you want? You’re complaining about the sources, when most articles don’t even give sources, they just state it. 89.205.134.111 (talk) 01:00, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:09, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Piet Mondriaan, 1939-1942 - Composition 10.jpg

Wikipedia use in References in culture
I have just reverted the removal of The Wikipedia Stub template 20C-painting-stub uses Composition with Red, Blue, and Yellow for the icon. by User:Fish bowl. My reasoning for keeping it in the article is that it was chosen to be representative of 20th century painting for the Stub which implies a degree of community consensus that it is better suited than something by Andy Warhol, Roy Lichtenstein, Pablo Picasso and the like which implies a degree of importance to the fact. Gusfriend (talk) 03:20, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Legacy
The set of The Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC is Mondrian 2600:1700:DFB0:90E0:98A3:B4D4:BAA9:A881 (talk) 14:33, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Legacy
Oneida makes a flatware pattern called Amsterdam that is Mondrian. 2600:1700:DFB0:90E0:98A3:B4D4:BAA9:A881 (talk) 14:42, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: 20th-21st Century Art, Performance and Media
— Assignment last updated by Driap305 (talk) 12:46, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Green Acres
A Mondrian-like painting is visible in the bedroom of Oliver and Lisa Douglas in the television program Green Acres. 50.252.208.253 (talk) 14:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Green Acres? The American television sitcom that first aired on CBS from 1965 to 1971? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)