Talk:Pietro Paulo Montagnani

Is Paolo Montagnari in fact (Pietro) Paolo Montagnani(-Mirabili) ?
Dear all,

for arguments' sake, consider the following:

 based on a regrouping of several sources hereafter: 

A/ The name "Paolo Montagnari" figures in a dictionary in Italian from 1824 :

author : Gioacchino Maria Olivier-Poli

Italian: "Continuazione al Nuovo Dizionario Istorico degli uomini che si sono renduti piu' celebri per talenti, virtu', scelleratezze, errori, ec., la quale abbraccia il periodo degli ultimi 40 anni dell' era volgare." p. 399

English: "Continuation of the New Historical Dictionary of people who have made themselves most famous for talents, virtues, wickedness, errors, etc., which covers the period of the last 40 years of the common era. p. 399

Original text in Italian:

"DUCROS (Pietro), pittore paesista ed incisore, nacque in Svizzera nel 1745. Dopo aver acquistato nell’ arte sua cognizioni abbastanza estese per sentire la necessità di aumentarle, e di perfezionare il suo talento come pittore e come incisore, si portò in Italia, e si stabili tosto in Roma, ove si unì in amicizia con Volpato. Ambedue intrapresero di dare una collezione di vedute di Roma e delle belle campagne che circondano quella città. La loro intrapresa ottenne il più brillante successo, e Ducros acquistò la riputazione di un eccellente paesista e di un abile incisore. Si unì egualmente con un artista romano, Paolo Montagnari, e pubblicarono in società 24 vedute della Sicilia e dell' isola di Malta, opera non meno rimarchevole della prima, e che ebbe il medesimo successo. Istruitissimo nella sua arte, appassionato per il genere che aveva adottato, avendo viaggiato con vantaggio e disegnato i siti più interessanti delle contrade che aveva percorse, era giunto a formare con questo mezzo una collezione bellissima e curiosissima di disegni. Questa collezione, ed in generale tutte le opere di Ducros, sono molto ricercate in Svizzera, in Germania ed in Inghilterra, ove sono più conosciute che in Francia. Ha dato, oltre le vedute che abbiamo di già citate : "Veduta di Palermo, presa da Monreale"; "Veduta del teatro di Tauromina"; "Veduta dell' Etna"; "Veduta dell' Anfiteatro di Siracusa"; "Veduta e dell' interno della città di Messina", dopo il tremuoto ch' avvenne nel 1783; finalmente "Vedute del porto delle galere dell' arsenale di Malta". Ducros ritornò nella sua patria, e morì a Losanna nel mese di febbraio 1810."

Translated:

"DUCROS (Pietro), landscape painter and engraver, was born in Switzerland in 1745. After having acquired enough knowledge in his art to feel the need to increase it, and to perfect his talent as a painter and as an engraver, he went to Italy and soon settled in Rome, where he became friends with Volpato. Both undertook to create a collection of views of Rome and the beautiful countryside surrounding that city. Their venture was most successful, and Ducros acquired the reputation of an excellent landscape painter and skilled engraver. He also joined forces with a Roman artist, Paolo Montagnari, and they jointly published 24 views of Sicily and the island of Malta, a work no less remarkable than the former, and equally successful. Well-educated in his art, passionate about the genre he had adopted, having travelled extensively and drawn the most interesting sites of the countries he had travelled through, he had come to form a beautiful and very peculiar collection of drawings. This collection, and, in general, all the works of Ducros, are much sought after in Switzerland, Germany and England, where they are better known than in France. In addition to the views we have already mentioned, he has produced: "View of Palermo, taken from Monreale"; "View of the Theatre of Tauromina" [sic]; "View of Mount Etna"; "View of the Amphitheatre of Syracuse"; "View of the Interior of the City of Messina", after the earthquake of 1783; and finally "Views of the Port of the Galleys of the Arsenal of Malta". Ducros returned to his homeland, and died in Lausanne in February 1810."

B/ The name "Paolo Montagnari" figures as "Paolo Montagnari-Mirabili" in a Drouot sales catalogue in French from 1877 :

French : "Catalogue d'une collection de beaux livres anciens et modernes, ornés de figures et très-bien reliés, sur les Arts, la Littérature et l'Histoire" (Cat. de vente - Drouot);

English: "Catalogue of a collection of fine ancient and modern books, decorated with figures and very well bound, on the Arts, Literature and History" (Sales Cat. - Drouot);

Original text in French & Italian:

Châp. "Beaux-Arts", p.9:

"n° 69. Monumenti antichi inediti, notizie sulla' antichità e belle arti di Roma. In Roma, presso Paolo Montagnari-Mirabili,1803, in-4, figures, demi-rel. bas."

Translated:

Chap. "Fine-Arts", p.9:

"n° 69. Unpublished ancient monuments, news on the antiquities and fine arts of Rome. Published in Rome, by Paolo Montagnari-Mirabili,1803, in-4, figures, half low relief."

C/ The name "Pietro Paolo Montagnani-Mirabili" figures in the following reprint after the original book in Italian from 1805, which title is almost identical to the source cited in the previous French book n°69 reference under B/ above:

Italian: "Monumenti Antichi Inediti, ovvero, Notizie Sulle Antichità E Belle Arti Di Roma". Vol. VII (1805). English: "Unpublished ancient monuments, i.e. news on the antiquities and fine arts of Rome". Vol. VII (1805). Note: the title page (p.6) shows Pietro Paolo Montagnani-Mirabili as the publisher: "In Roma, presso Pietro Paolo Montagnani-Mirabili, all'insegna di Pallado a Pasquino. MDCCCV"

NEW:

D/ The name "Montagnani" figures in the following monthly revue in French from 1927:  Agassiz, Daisy (1927). Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros : peintre et graveur, 1748-1810 [Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros : painter and engraver, 1748-1810]. Revue Historique Vaudoise (in French). Vol. 35e année. Lausanne: Éditions Spes. p. 13 ( E-Periodica - Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros : peintre et graveur 1748-1810 )

Original in French:

" Nous retrouvons Du Cros à Rome vers 1789. Il publia à ce moment, en collaboration avec Pierre de Montagnani, une deuxième série de gravures ; «24 vues de Sicile et de Malte (1) ».

Ceci nous est confirmé par les lettres du Doyen Bridel, qui semble porter un vif intérêt à son célèbre compatriote :

«M. Ducros, d’Yverdon, actuellement à Rome, a publiè des estampes colorièes de différentes vue de cette capitale. Il rend surtout les ruines antiques avec une vérité frappante…

Je l’ai vu tour à tour peindre le Colisée, le Temple de Sibylle, le Panthéon, l’Arc de Titus, de Constantin, le Forum. Il travaille actuellement à une ɶuvre de Sicile contenant 24 vues de cette île fameuse (2).

» Rome, le 28 juillet 1789. L.B. »

(1)	Les plus connues sont : ''La Vue de l’intérieur de la ville de Messine après le tremblement de terre de 1784. Vue de Palerme (prise de Montréal). Vue de l’Etna. Vue de l’Amphithéâtre de Syracuse. Vue du Théâtre de Taormina. Vue du Port aux Galères et de l’Arsenal de Malte'' (seule gravure de Malte connue).

(2)	Conservateur suisse, 1813. Châpitre consacré aux beaux-arts."

Translated:

" We find Du Cros in Rome around 1789. At that time he published, in collaboration with Pierre de Montagnani, a second series of engravings; "24 views of Sicily and Malta (1)".

This is confirmed by the letters of Dean Bridel, who seems to have taken a keen interest in his famous compatriot:

"M. Ducros, from Yverdon, at present in Rome, has published coloured prints of various views of this capital. He renders especially the ancient ruins with a striking veracity... I have seen him paint in turn the Colosseum, the Temple of Sibyl, the Pantheon, the Arch of Titus, of Constantine, the Forum. He is currently working on a body of work on Sicily containing 24 views of this famous island (2).

"Rome, 28th July 1789.						L.B."

Notes : (1) The best known are: ''View of the interior of the city of Messina after the earthquake of 1784. View of Palermo (taken from Montreal). View of Mount Etna. View of the Amphitheatre of Syracuse. View of the Theatre of Taormina. View of the Galleys Port and the Arsenal of Malta'' (only known engraving of Malta).

(2) Swiss curator, 1813. Chapter devoted to the fine arts. "

NEW:

E/ The name "Montagnani" figures in the following annual revue in Italian from 1956: 

Verdone, Mario (1956). Carriera romana dell'acquarellista Du Cros, (in Italian). [The Roman career of watercolourist Du Cros] in Strenna dei Romanisti, Vol. XVII, 1956. Roma: Straderini Editore, pp. 206-212 (pp. 144 - 148 in scan)

In Italian: “Si recò tra il 1787e il 1789 in Sicilia e a Malta.”
 * on p. 208, it says :

Translated: “Between 1787 and 1789 he went to Sicily and Malta.”

Original text in Italian:
 * on p. 209, it says :

“Rimasto a Napoli fino al 1807, dopo un nuovo viaggio in Sicilia e a Malta (di queste calate verso il sud resta documento in una collezione di 24 vedute eseguiti col romano Pietro Paolo Montagnani) e aver perso pressapoco tutta la sua fortuna per il fallimento di un banchiere, riparò in patria, riuscendo a salvare la sua collezione di aquarelli e disegni.”

Translated: “Remaining in Naples until 1807, after a new trip to Sicily and Malta (a document of these trips to the south remains in a collection of 24 views executed with the Roman Pietro Paolo Montagnani) and having lost more or less all of his fortune through the bankruptcy of a banker, he returned home, managing to save his collection of watercolours and drawings.” Note: the Du Cros in this article is about Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros as is made clear on p. 206 of the book. NEW:

F/ The names "Paul Montagnani" and "Peter du Cros" figure in a dictionary in German from 1806 : Füssli, Johann-Rudolf (1806). Allgemeines Künstlerlexikon, Vol. II : A-E, Zürich : Orell, Füssli & Co., p. 245. Note : biography entry of : "Cros, (Peter du)"

Original text in German and French: " Cros, (Peter du), gebürtig von Yverdun in der französischen Schweiz. Derselbe ging schon früh in Italien, wo er um 1780, in Gesellschaft von Johann Volpato in Rom, theils nach Gemälden aus dem Vatikan, hauptsächlich aber nach Zeichnungen nach der Natur Prospekte dieser Stadt, besonders von antiken Gebäuden u. s. f. in Blättern herausgab, wovon nur die Umrisse geätzt sind, daβ übrige aber mit Wasserfarben schon und geschmackvoll ausgemalt war. In 1785, dachte er auf ein Werk : l’Art de graver au pinceau, à la plume et au roseau, et maniere avec diverses teintes, pour imiter les dessins des grands maitres, rehaussés de blanc sur du papier coloré. Doch späterhin (wie es scheint erst gegen End des XVIII. Jahrhunderts) nahm er sich vor, gemeinschaftlich mit Paul Montagnani, 24. Prospekte von Sicilien und Malta auf Unterschrift von 4. Zecchinen (von vieren sogar von 6.) vom Stück, ans Licht zu stellen. Ob solches seither geschehen, ob selbst jenes schon 1783. angekündigte Werk von ihnen wirklich erschienen sey, ist uns bey der dürftigen Kunde von ultramontanischer neuester Kunst, ganz unbekannt. Irren wir uns nicht, so haben wir jüngsthin vernommen, daβ du Cros noch im J. 1805. zu Neapel lebte. Meusel Msc. IX. 190. Rost IV. 268. "

Translated: " Cros, (Peter du), a native of Yverdon in French-speaking Switzerland. He went to Italy at an early age, where, around 1780, he published, in the company of Johann Volpato in Rome, partly after paintings from the Vatican, but mainly after drawings from nature, views of this city, especially of ancient buildings, etc., in sheet form, of which only the outlines are etched, but the rest is already and tastefully painted with watercolours. In 1785, he put his thoughts on a work :  " l'Art de graver au pinceau, à la plume et au roseau, et manière avec diverses teintes, pour imiter les dessins des grands maîtres, rehaussés de blanc sur du papier coloré." ["the Art of engraving with brush, pen and reed, and manner with various tints, to imitate the drawings of the great masters, highlighted with white on coloured paper."]

But later (as it seems only towards the end of the 18th century), he undertook, in collaboration with Paul Montagnani, to bring to light (i.e. publish) 24 prints of Sicily and Malta on a subscription basis (or is it on order?) for 4 zecchini undefined apiece (even of 6 zecchini for four of the prints). Whether this has happened since then and even whether the work announced by them as early as 1783 has actually been published is completely unknown to us, given our scant knowledge of the latest art from beyond the mountains. If we are not mistaken, we have recently heard that du Cros was still alive in Naples in 1805. Meusel Msc. IX. 190. Rost IV. 268 "

Note: NEW:
 * this is an early account of du Cros, still within his lifetime.
 * The Christian names have been Germanised.
 * the 24 prints may be as early as 1783, which is not improbable since Ducros is known to have painted scenes of Messina just after the devastating earthquake in 1783, which cannot have been made during the visit in 1778 with 4 Dutchmen.

G/ The names "Pietro Paolo Montagnani" and "P. or Pierre Ducros" figure in Bryan's dictionary of painters and engravers, "DUCROS, Pierre, a Swiss landscape painter in oil and water-colours, and an engraver, was born in 1748. He lived for a considerable time at Rome, and painted views of that city and its environs. He executed in a masterly manner twenty-four views of Sicily and Malta, besides numerous drawings made during his sojourn in Italy, some of which are of large dimensions. He died at Lausanne in 1810." "MONTAGNANI, Pietro Paolo, engraver, was born at Rome in 1740. "With P. Ducros he engraved twenty-four views of Sicily and Malta." Conclusion:
 * Vol. II : D-G, from 1903, on p. 95:
 * Vol. III : H-M, from 1904, on p. 356:

it is highly likely that the catalogue of the Drouot sale from 1877 may have badly transcribed the correct data from the original book in its listing of books from a library that came up for sale, making 2 errors:
 * date of publication : 1803 instead of 1805
 * publisher : the name is noted as Montagnari instead of Montagnani

I think this clearly links B/ to C/

Furthermore, Pietro Paolo Montagnani-Mirabili is a name that can be found relatively frequently as publisher for prints and books on Antiquity, in internet searches and in renowned collections, where-as the name Paolo Montagnari hardly occurs, at all, in any sources, except the 2 above.

Till now, I have been unsuccessful to find the 24 views of Sicily and the island of Malta and signed by (Pietro) Ducros and Paulo Montagnari mentioned under A/, and the new points D/ and E/, nor when they were published. Are these large format prints? Are they coloured or plain? Where was such a collection held? By whom?

Any help is welcome!

However, I stumbled on a Pinterest image saying : << "Veduta di Messina dopo il terremoto del 1783" di Abraham Louis Rodolphe Ducros, 1789 >>:

(https://www.pinterest.com/pin/messina-dipinti-e-stampe--782711610219963389/), but cannot see where it came from, nor if the description is accurate. If the caption is correct, it cannot have come from the series of 1778, now held at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam, as it translates as "View of Messina after the earthquake of 1783".

The newly added Point D/ adds a new perspective since :
 * it cites Pierre de Montagnani, instead of Paulo Montagnari as in A/, or Paulo Montagnari-Mirabili as in B/, but then, Pierre is French for Pietro, which compares well to Pietro Paulo Montagnani-Mirabili as in C/...
 * it cites almost verbatim the same views of Sicily and Malta (in a total of 24) as point A/ does, except the series of articles are about Adolphe-Louis-Rodolphe Ducros, and NOT Pietro Ducros, in what can be assessed as an in-depth research effort by Mlle. Agassiz
 * it, for the first time, specifies 1789 as the likely date of the series of 24 views of Sicily (even though no mention of Malta...), in a verifiable source, which the Pinterest image above also says in its caption

The newly added Point E/ adds the following :
 * it cites Pietro Paolo Montagnani, instead of Paolo Montagnari as in A/, or Paolo Montagnari-Mirabili as in B/, or Pierre de Montagnani as in D/
 * it again cites the 24 views of Sicily and Malta as point A/ does, except the series of articles are about Adolphe-Louis-Rodolphe Ducros, and NOT Pietro Ducros, just as in point D/
 * Mention of a visit to Sicily and Malta between 1787 and 1789

The newly added Point F/ adds the following :
 * it cites Paul Montagnani, instead of Paolo Montagnari as in A/, or Paolo Montagnari-Mirabili as in B/, or Pierre de Montagnani as in D/, or Pietro Paolo Montagnani as in E/
 * it again cites the 24 views of Sicily and Malta as points A/ and E/ do, but attribute them to the name "Peter du Cros", which can be seen as the Germanised name of Pierre (French) or Pietro (Italian) and Paul Montagnani, where Paul is likely to be the Germanised version of Paolo (Italian)
 * the 24 prints may be as early as 1783 or later than 1785, but great uncertainty remains about the date... ("towards the end of the 18th-C.")

PS: Pietro Ducros, Swiss-Italian artist (died in February 1810 in Lausanne), also proves extremely elusive, by the way! I have a theory that there's again been a misnomer at a certain point of time of the Christian name. It is very strange indeed that another Swiss artist, going by the name of Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe aka Louis Ducros, was born in the very same Swiss town, Moudon, and died also in February 1810 in Lausanne, with a rather similar course of life mostly spent in Italy, doing a similar type of job.

What are the odds of these two Swiss painters-engravers, being in Italy over the same long period of time, being two different people altogether? Not a lot, I'd say...

The new perspective from point D/ (and E/) above offers clear additional arguments for this theory in my opinion. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Shooting4truth (talk) 20:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC)