Talk:Pike Place Market/Archive 1

Rachel
Rachel is worth a section unto herself. There are now several other pig statues around the market (I like to point out the hidden in plain sight one that is above the marquee roof of the Sanitary Market) and the charity fundraising Pigs on Parade which scatters artist designed pigs around the city and then auctions them.

(I'll go over some more things which are worth changes or additions, but I'm not sure how much help I can be in actual writing for you.) SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
 * Any and all help is welcome, and yeah--Rachel is getting her own section, and then a spin-off article for her and Pigs on Parade. There's more than enough for that available. rootology ( C )( T ) 16:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a seated statue of Rachel in the Market Heritage Center. - Jmabel | Talk 17:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there? I'll have to see if I can find it next week and get a photo. rootology ( C )( T ) 23:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I specifically didn't because I presumed there would be copyright issues. - Jmabel | Talk 06:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Tenzing Momo
Tenzing Momo is also worth a mention & a photo. I'll take the photo. - Jmabel | Talk 19:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * DONE - Jmabel | Talk 19:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Original Starbucks in lead?
Just saying. Sounds important enough Purplebackpack89 (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Question about the original location
One editor has expressed the belief that the location currently operating at Pike Place Market is not the original Starbucks location, despite widespread belief to the contrary; please see the discussion at Talk:Seattle%2C_Washington. Postdlf 23:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Re:1st Starbucks location
The first Starbucks does not reside in the Pike Place Market but directly across the street from the Pike Place Market. I live here and shop here, I know this. 66.235.35.207 04:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Pike Place Market does not consist of only one building, that building "across the street" is also considered a part of the modern Market. hateless 06:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

there is a link at the bottom of this article to the Pike Place Fish Market that is a redirect right back to this same article. it either need to be changed, an article created, or removed 99.131.7.91 —Preceding comment was added at 20:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It is interesting, but Starbucks on the market practices "flying fish" with cups, I do not know where to add it but it is really funny store... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.40.7.33 (talk) 09:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Pig Picture
The picture I deleted from the article showed a pig and labled it as the pike place market pig. The pig pictured was actually part of an art display of 50 pigs placed around the city, decorated by local artists. The pigs were later auctioned for charity. The pig in the picture was pike place market themed but is not the one displayed at the market. The one displayed at the market (which the art pigs were recreations of) is brass, and has no markings on it at all. It is also located on the ground in front of the market, in front of the fish market (where they throw the fish). 66.235.35.207 04:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Erroneous Claim as oldest continuously-running farmer's market
Pike's Place does not bear this distinction. Certainly Soulard Market in St. Louis is considerably older as it began operations in 1779. It stands to reason that very few things in Seattle are the "oldest" of any particular type or class since Seattle is on the West Coast and was settled much later than cities like Philadelphia or St. Louis. Pike's Place may have a terrific tradition, but it is not the oldest-running farmer's market in the U.S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.186.115 (talk) 15:33, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Now says "one of the oldest" which is presumably true. - Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Moore Theatre
Why so much material here on the Moore Theatre? It has its own article, and unless I'm mistaken it is one block outside of the Market Historic District. - Jmabel | Talk 05:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I was wondering that too after I added the link. I'll clean it up this week or next. Lawrence  §  t / e  05:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Near-useless citations
Can anyone explain what is going on with the near-useless citations like "(1) Lange (2) Crowley (3) Wilma"? I even know Seattle history and historiography well enough to know who these are (Greg Lange, Walt Crowley, and David Wilma) but without saying what articles are referred to, these citations are pretty much useless. Unless someone can say what articles of theirs are being referenced, we should probably get rid of these and start over on building a citation apparatus. - Jmabel | Talk 06:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks like this all came in with this edit over a year ago, with the edit summary "completed merge". Does anyone know what was merged? That might hold the key to making some sense of these citations. - Jmabel | Talk 06:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Aha! Going back a bit, one finds that there was a proposed merge from Pike Market, Seattle, Washington (now a redirect). And it had a large "bibliography" to which these refer, but which wasn't merged. So it shouldn't be too hard to sort this out. (Not that the citation approach in Pike Market, Seattle, Washington was pretty, but it looks like at least the material is there. It was largely the work of User:GoDot, who did some good work but had a very idiosyncratic approach to footnoting. - Jmabel | Talk 06:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Working on it. - Jmabel | Talk 18:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Could probably be improved further (and certainly the article needs more citations) but at least now it is clear what is cited from where. - Jmabel | Talk 01:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

History section
I'm just leaving dirty chronological notes for the key events cribbed from a variety of timelines, online and print. I hope it gives an idea of the scale I was thinking in the end, once the sections are filled in. rootology ( C )( T ) 21:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Good move. - Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

"Major attractions"
How do we cite for things being "major attractions"? Should we perhaps retitle the section? I think it covers more or less the right topics (Pike Place Fish Market with the "flying fish", the quasi-original Starbucks, the Market Heritage Center, and the statue of Rachel the Pig). - Jmabel | Talk 03:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * changed section title. - Jmabel | Talk 19:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

PETA
Should the recent thing with PETA getting upset over the fish throwing be put in?

Link Fruckert (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe one sentence with Pike Place Fish. Pike Place Fish is probably notable for their own article if someone wrote it. It would go there, not here. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Into the Night
Is this the location of the "Into the Night" video with  Santana and Chad Kroeger? Just thought I recognized the sign.

Young Web ProgrammerMsg me 15:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

More structural oddness
I'd be really inclined to integrate the material about Mark Tobey and Victor Steinbrueck entirely into the "history" section and get them out of the "people" section. Also, we should mention Tobey's book The World of the Market, absolutely fundamental in the movement to save the market. There is good material on all of this in Nard Jones book Seattle (Doubleday, 1972, ISBN 0385018754), p. 32–34. By the way, the plan the were facing down was called the Pike Place Project, and mayor Wes Uhlman was among its backers. We currently say (without a usable citation - see previous section of this talk page) "culminating in 1971 with 2 to 1 passage of a citizen initiative for protection and citizen oversight of the core Pike Place Market that has since largely protected the neighborhood"; I'm not saying that's wrong, because there apparrently was more than one related election, but Jones says that the Pike Place Project was defeated in spring 1971 only by a margin of 57,934 to 50,641, which is nowhere near 2 to 1. Was there another related vote in the same year? - Jmabel | Talk 06:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sol Amon
There is an awful lot about Sol Amon here, both in the "Major attractions" and "Notable people" sections. He is an important market vendor, but there have been many others (Joe Desimone leaps to mind). Any objection to moving this material down to just "Notable people" and cutting it a bit? At best, as an individual he is of only borderline encyclopedic notability. Yes, the city has "named a day" after him, but I bet not one Seattleite in 100 knows it. - Jmabel | Talk 01:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Acting Mayor Charles H Burnett
I am adding Charles H. Burnett Jr. who being President of the Seatttle City Council who as well as being a supporter Councillor Revelle in the initiative was filling in as the Acting Mayor of Seattle at the ribbon cutting on opening day.

Pike Place Market. Acting Mayor Charles H. Burnett proclaimed August 17, 1907 as Market ... http://www.abetterword.com/The%20First%20Days.pdf RichardBond (talk) 23:05, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Location and extent section
I've taken what I think is a good shot at sorting out a section that was (under the name "location") a mess. I believe it should now be clear that there are several conflicting definitions of what constitutes the Market. There is, I hope, no question that everything inside the narrow, federally recognized historic district should be covered in this article. I think we should at least cover the more expansive city-recognized historic district (which lets us include Steinbrueck Park and the Hillclimb). I'd also want to include the obviously Market-related South Arcade.

However, I think that covering the rest of the Pike-Market neighborhood is pushing it. Really, the block between First and Second has less to do with the Market than does the block between First and Western north of Virginia (and arguably even the next block up from that) and the latter fall outside of even the City Clerk's generous boundaries while the former are within those boundaries. And the inclusion of the Moore Theatre here strikes me as quite inappropriate. Again, it is outside even the City Clerk's generous boundaries, and its only relation to the Market is that it is another well-restored nearby early 20th-century building.

Rootology, your thoughts? - Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Not having heard back, I'm taking the liberty of getting the Moore Theatre material mostly out of the article. I've merged it all to the article on the theater itself, where it really belongs. - Jmabel | Talk 00:58, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was totally swamped the past day with tons of stuff. It was a good move. Anything you want to pull, go nuts.
 * The Market area as well, I agree. If stuff is borderline, it can't hurt to put it in, even it's just a placeholder note. Maybe skip a sentence, add an ugly line break with a {Foo here} note, and based on how it ends up in scale and value after we can drop it or build that bit up. I'm going to wrap up a couple new comments on the Greencards FA and then dive into the history section. rootology ( C )( T ) 02:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Style issue
When we use the single word "Market" to refer to the institution as a whole, should we capitalize or not? - Jmabel | Talk 15:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This I'm not sure about totally, but I'm inclined to say yes when referring to the Market itself specifically. Talking other markets or markets in general, just market. rootology ( C )( T ) 02:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable people
Notable people: I'm sure there are many who should be mentioned and are not, but one blatant omission is Joe Desimone (and the Desimone family in general). - Jmabel | Talk 01:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to get Joe in there. :) rootology ( C )( T ) 02:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

And let's get Sol Amon into just one place: not an "attraction" and a "notable person". - Jmabel | Talk 01:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect claim in caption
"At the shore is Railroad Avenue on pilings, now Western Avenue. Alaskan Way apparently does not yet exist, so this is before the completion of filling in 1905." Simply wrong. It is Western Avenue on pilings, and it was already called that. Railroad Avenue was the future Alaskan Way. It may not yet have been built here; it's hard to tell because it would be at approximately the same height as the photographer. I can show you Sanborn maps from almost exactly this time (1904-1905) that make that very clear. I'll prepare JPEGs of them and upload them some time in the next 48 hours, but if you have access to the Sanborn Digital Maps you can see for yourself. - Jmabel | Talk 17:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Now that I look closer, I'm actually less sure of what I said. Here are all the relevant 1905 maps. I can't work out exactly where that photo is. I'll try to find earlier maps and see if they are more revealing. Anyway, the image at lower right belongs in the article, because it shows the terrain of what is now the heart of the Market just before the Market was built.

Note that the maps don't line up cleanly: the maps at right would have to be shifted down to line up. Click through if you want to see any details. These are high-res and should be readable. - Jmabel | Talk 18:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I've added an 1893 map here. - Jmabel | Talk 20:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The short of it: I can't place exactly where the photo is (and it would be great if someone could), but there is no question that West Street became Western Avenue, Water Street became Elliott Avenue, and that would make Railroad Avenue today's Alaskan Way, not today's Western Avenue. If we can get a map that shows exactly where the old Washington Hotel stood, we should be able to sort this out. - Jmabel | Talk 20:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect it was pretty much exactly where the New Washington Hotel (now Josephinium) stood: 2nd and Stewart. So the remark about "near Pike Street" in the caption would also be wrong. - Jmabel | Talk 21:02, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed. It was on Stewart. The hotel and its grounds occupied the entire two blocks from Second to Fourth between Stewart & Virginia. Of course, at the time that was very steep, and the hotel had a private cable car to get people up from downtown. I'll try to upload a map some time in the next 48 hours as documentation of this. - Jmabel | Talk 02:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

History section scope FOR the FAC
I've been thinking about this. The article, when I finish out the "full" history section as I've laid it out, is going to be honking humongous. Too big, I think, for the article... it will be like 66%-75% of the content based on how big the other sections are now. I'm going to be short on time for a couple days after tonight (Monday, Tuesday sometimes, most Wednesdays stink for me). Would you mind tagging somehow what you think are the key points in "market history" from what I have currently, maybe with a small graphic (?) or text, and I'll go through and add some maybe--and that'll be what I focus on first and foremost. All the overflow I was thinking of could go to History of the Pike Place Market after for a standalone article. rootology ( C )( T ) 05:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we should try to write the whole history & then refactor. & don't be so sure it will be 66%-75% of the content: I'm working mainly on other sections. - Jmabel | Talk 22:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Possibly interesting source
An academic source on tourism & the market: Giorgia Aiello and Irina Gendelman, Seattle’s Pike Place Market (De)constructed: An Analysis of Tourist Narratives about a Public Space, Journal of Tourism and Cultural Change, Vol. 5, No. 3, 2007, p. 158 et. seq. - Jmabel | Talk 22:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Sentence needs clarification
"They would sell to the middleman on commission, as most farmers would often have no time to sell direct to the public, and their earnings would be on marked up prices and expected sales."


 * 1) "as most farmers would often have no time to sell direct to the public": do we really want to say that? As the opening of the Market made clear, it wasn't a matter of time, it was a matter of having a convenient place to sell.
 * 2) "They would sell to the middleman on commission": who was on commission? The farmer? The middleman? Does this really mean to say "on commission" or does it mean "on consignment"? How exactly did the system work?
 * 3) "their earnings would be on marked up prices and expected sales." Whose earnings? The farmer? The middleman? What does this mean in any case?

I just find the whole sentence so confusing that I don't even venture to offer a rewrite. Could you possibly give a more verbose paraphrase and then let's work on tightening that once it is at least clear. - Jmabel | Talk 04:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I tried to clean it up a bit more. I'm going to come back to this bit, and the system, since the specifics are only about as finely detailed as I have it now in this book, but I've seen more detailed info in other sources before that we can work in. The old system really was, well, unfair. rootology ( C )( T ) 04:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Still a bit vague, but less so than before. "On consignment" is clear. "On commission" suggests something entirely different, though, and both phrases are here.
 * When a farmer sells "on consignment", the farmer gets a percentage of the final price, period. If the goods don't sell, the farmer gets nothing. Selling "on commission" would usually just mean that someone (typically a salesman) gets some percentage based on sales. It doesn't have to be a straight percentage, it could be a formula (for example the salesman could get paid a percentage only based on exceeding a certain price). I suppose one could talk about consignment sales as a commission from the farmer to the wholesaler or to the middleman, but that's not how I've usually heard such arrangements described.
 * Anyway, if we can get clear on how the money really moved, who was paid when and by whom, it would be a lot more useful. - Jmabel | Talk 16:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * along these lines, but not with that sentence, it seems to be that prices are somewhat fixed, particularly with produce. If one vendor is selling blueberries for $1.99 a pint then they all are.  What makes this so? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)


 * I think they just eye each other's prices. Supply and demand works pretty well to set a price when a dozen vendors are within a minute's walk of each other. - Jmabel | Talk 16:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Images we should have and don't
- Jmabel | Talk 03:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Roll call for vendors
 * A circa 1923 map to show how little has changed
 * At least one early (early enough to be public domain) pamphlet or poster
 * Produce daystall(s), crafts daystall(s), maybe even an outdoor vendor up near Virginia Street. **DONE**


 * When, what, is roll call for vendors? I walk through at least twice a week, and I could go early. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
 * I think he's referring to the 3rd paragraph in User:Rootology/Pike_Place_Market. I think the stalls (today) are long-term leases. By the way, sorry I haven't been doing as much the past couple days. I always get into weird shifts where I'll get twitchy to work in other stuff in spurts. rootology ( C )( T ) 16:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Stalls are definitely not long term, though some are. There are some vendors I talk to and I've commented how they move around the market a lot.  They laughed about it, but I was moving on and never caught why it was. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
 * High stalls are long-term and are considered commercial merchants, but all of the low stalls are daystalls, and are for actual farmers or craftspeople. I think I've adequately explained that in the section "Policies". If you think that doesn't adequately explain the matter, let me know. I focused on the daystalls, but could say more about the commercial merchants. I didn't think it worth dwelling on, because they do business pretty much the same way as other small businesses in Seattle and throughout the capitalist world.
 * Roll call is still a daily affair. - Jmabel | Talk 18:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

State of the rewrite
Outside of the "history" portion (still only about 1/3 written) I think this is now pretty good. Not FA level, but tremendously better than the existing article. Rootology, I gather that you are writing the history section, so I'll confine myself mainly to copy editing there unless specifically asked to do otherwise.

The only other part that I see needs work is the "Major attractions" section: largely inherited from the existing article, almost entirely uncited. I'll work on that next. At that point, I think it might be worth considering a partial merge to the main article, even if the history section is still work in progress. Since that section will eventually be an article of its own, I think we could do a digest in the main article, and keep sandbox just that part. What do others think?

In any case, before that merge someone should make a pass through the many sections I wrote. Copyedits are, of course, welcome, but I'm most concerned if anyone thinks anything important was left out that isn't likely to be well-covered in the history section. - Jmabel | Talk 18:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, all that heavy lifting is basically done, and over the next days/weeks I'm going to keep expanding out the history section, and then once the bulk of it is done from the Shorrett book, I'm going to go back with other sources to add more citations, and material. I just tossed up User:Rootology/Pike Place Market/draft which is a quick and dirty merge of our draft and the live article's remaining history section. Want to put this live on Pike Place Market and move this there? I can just keep adding subsections into the history section after there, from the guide layout on our existing draft. Deep copyediting/FAizing we can do on the live copy after, now that the body has been redone. What do you say? rootology ( C )( T ) 19:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I could go with that, but have you (or has anyone) done a read-through/edit of the sections I worked on? And has anyone thought about the technicalities of the merge, so you and I each get credited for our respective work? - Jmabel | Talk 21:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was actually thinking about that, and was thinking of asking for a history merge. Once it came FAC time I was thinking a co-nom? rootology ( C )( T ) 22:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge DONE. - Jmabel | Talk

History sections
Just for anyone who might not be following all that's been going on here: User:Rootology and I (and anyone else is welcome to help) are in the process of trying to drive this article to Featured Article level. Right now, the thing that seems most to need fleshing out is the history of the Market, which Rootology will mainly drive. Probably that will become so large that it will be refactored out as an article in its own right, but it seems best to write it in place here, then refactor.

Editors are directed to the history section of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pike_Place_Market&oldid=244862745#1920s ''et. seq.'' for an outline of what Rootology proposes to add. That was removed when we merged from the sandbox, because an outline like that is really more for use by editors than readers. I presume that work on these topics by others would be welcome, if anyone wants to take any of this up. - Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Another untapped source
Victor Steinbrueck, Market Sketchbook, Seattle and London: University of Washington Press. First published 1968. I have the 1978 paperback, ISBN 0295956313. Pages are annoyingly unnumbered, but it gives an amazing amount of information about the Market and surrounding areas at that date (1968). Among other things, a sketched map shows the old building at the southwest corner of First and Pine with U-Save Drugs on First and the Council Thrift Shop on Post Alley; a St. Vincent DePaul occupying the space that is now Sur le Table; the Market Hotel in the Silver Oakum Building; and a Veterans' Thrift Shop in what is now Stewart House. There was apparently also a Goodwill. We could sort out more of this from Polk's Directories from that period.

The book also mentions a neo-Victorian National Bank of Commerce (described as "recent" and as "one of the trustees of the Joe Desimone estate"; where was it? One sketch looks like it might have been what was later DiLaurenti's; it also mentions that the DiLaurentis go back in the Market to 1928), has much about various Market businesses, some of which still exist, and clarifies which portion of the Market the Fairley's owned. Apparently the Hideout Tavern and the Rice Bowl were on the site that later became Il Bistro; Elisa and Elena's Cafe (Filipino) at the site that is now a Chinese restaurant (across from the foot of Pine Street). Anyway, there is a ton in there, though it may mostly be of antiquarian interest. The book deserves at least a "further reading" mention. - Jmabel | Talk 22:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Bank of Commerce itself was older, but the Market branch (or its decor) may well have been recent at the time. - Jmabel | Talk 03:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, we might use Jack R. Evans (1991), Little History of Pike Place Market, Seattle: SCW Publications, ISBN 1877882046. Through a weird series of events, I own what used to be David Della's copy. - Jmabel | Talk 22:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Japanese internment
There is a claim in the article with reference to the interned Japanese during World War II that, "Their property, including any stalls at Pike Place, was confiscated and sold." I think that is untrue, on two counts. First, stalls at Pike Place would have been property of the Market; at most they were leased. If they were daystalls then they were not even leased, just rented by the day, and there was no property interest. While most of the interned Japanese suffered great material losses, there was no general confiscation. Some sold out their businesses or other property at fire sale prices in the days before they left for the camps. Businesses in leased premises were also usually lost, and even owned property was often lost for non-payment of taxes. Still, some found non-Japanese to take care of their interests during the war years, and while some of those were screwed over by those custodians, not all were. I can't say for certain that there were no confiscations, and one effect of interning an entire ethnic community was, of course, massive loss of property, but I believe the sentence as it stands is simply untrue. Unless someone can come forward in about the next 72 hours with a solid citation, I intend to reword this. - Jmabel | Talk 03:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

That also got me thinking: I bet the uncited statement "By the 1940s, more than two-thirds of the stalls in Pike Place Market were owned by Japanese-Americans" is wrong, too. For starters, daystalls weren't (and aren't) "owned" by their occupants, and unless I'm very mistaken, the Japanese and Japanese Americans in the Market were overwhelmingly farmers using daystalls (though I'm sure there were a handful of Japanese or Japanese American merchants). But, also, I've never seen a source that says the proportion of Japanese-Americans was this high. I'm sure they were the single largest ethnic group among the farmers (with Italians coming second), but I'd really need to see a solid citation before I'd believe this particular claim. I'm pretty sure that Shorett and Morgan, the source we are most using for history, do not say this, nor does the Crowley article on HistoryLink nor any of the materials I've been using on official city and Market sites. All of these discuss the internment, none of them seem like apologists for what the U.S. government did, but none of them bear out this high number. - Jmabel | Talk 04:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I have now reworked this using citable statements. - Jmabel | Talk 18:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Buskers
The only place buskers are mentioned are two paragraphs in one subsection about policies. There should be some buskers in the notable people section that are well-known, past and present (Artis, in the past, and Johnny the piano guy in the present, for example). SchmuckyTheCat (talk)


 * No objection. Johnny is Johnny Hahn. Also, certainly if we expand on Artis, we expand on Jim Page. If we are doing this, we should also mention Baby Gramps, Jeanne Towne (the blind autoharpist), and possibly Amber Tide (Thaddeus Spae and his late wife Sandhabeth), Howlin' Hobbit, Kirsten "Mother Zosima" Anderberg, the contingent (quartet, I believe) of gospel singers who often sing there (anyone know a name?), Slimpickins, the Tallboys, and the late Jim Hinde. Any other suggestions? Anyone from my "possibly" list you think we should leave out? Any idea whether Reverend Chumleigh worked the Market back in his busking days? (I always saw him around the U. District, which was more my orbit at the time. I suppose I could write him and ask.) - Jmabel | Talk 15:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Corrected "Slimpickins" to "the Tallboys", had two old-timey groups confused, the latter are the ones I see often in the Market. - Jmabel | Talk 18:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thought of two others. Eagle Park Slim is a pretty definite mention, and from back in the 1970s and early '80s the Dynamic Logs / Jitters / Royal Famille du Caniveaux contingent (P. K. Dwyer, Ron Bailey, et. al.). - Jmabel | Talk 16:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * On third thought, not sure how often Eagle Park Slim has sung at the Market. It's where I first heard him, but that might have been a fluke. anyone know more?- Jmabel | Talk 05:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Gospel quartet ==> "Brother Willie and the Market Crew". - Jmabel | Talk 18:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Of the above, the Buskers Guild's Myspace page mentions Artis the Spoonman, Jim Page, Jim Hinde, Brother Willie and the Market Crew, and The Tallboys. They also mention Niceol Blue, Greg Spence Wolf, Emery Carl, Zachary Michaud, Dog Mafia, Briggs, A Moment In Time, Joe Fulton, and Moonpenny Opera. Possibly not a citable source, but suggestive of names to list. - Jmabel | Talk 18:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * No one seems to be chiming in (Schmucky, where are you?); I'll go with my own list: add it to the article & then start citing for it. - Jmabel | Talk 23:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Basically DONE. - Jmabel | Talk 16:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Chumleigh says his rare appearances at the Market were over-documented; he wasn't there often enough to really qualify as a Market busker. He pretty much agrees with my list (though there could be some more recent ones he wouldn't know). He also agrees we should mention the Logs / Jitters / du Caniveaux, but also doesn't know how to document for them. He also mentions an African American drumming group from the 1970s, but doesn't remember a name. Anyone with a clue? - Jmabel | Talk 17:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Official mascot?
What, if anything, is the basis for calling Rachel the Market's "official mascot"? If it is accurate, it must be recent. Pike Place Market News, March 2006, p. 12 overtly says "Rachel is not the official symbol for the Pike Place Market—or the Market Foundation." - Jmabel | Talk 04:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Rachel was first added to the article in this "IP" edit by User:71.231.139.152, who made good, though uncited, contributions several places in the article. That edit made no claim of Rachel being "official". The claim of the mascot being "official" comes with this uncited edit by User:Emeraldcityserendipity. Emeraldcityserendipity's edits all look well-intentioned, but I wouldn't say he or she has such a track record that I would presume accuracy. - Jmabel | Talk 06:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I duly notified User:Emeraldcityserendipity and asked him/her to comment here. - Jmabel | Talk 16:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I have changed this to say "unofficial" and cited accordingly. If someone has a citation to the contrary, please provide it. - Jmabel | Talk 18:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Rachel's snout
"Locals make a habit of emptying their pockets and rubbing Rachel's snout for good luck." I find guidebooks that encourage people to do this; I've never seen a local do so. I think this is a made-up tradition, like the old joke "Beginning tomorrow, there is a campus tradition of not walking on the lawn in front of Old Main." Unless someone can come up with a solid citation for this, I think we should remove it. - Jmabel | Talk 22:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Pike Place Fish Market
Would someone other than me be willing to sort out the citations for the Pike Place Fish Market material? Several claims made here are not in our Pike Place Fish Market, and that article is somewhat indifferently cited (might be a good side project to clean that one up). I've been citing for the bulk of what was uncited outside of the "History" section, but this one really doesn't interest me enough to motivate me to work on it. I really don't care what TV shows they got to show their fish stand, sorry. - Jmabel | Talk 05:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Filmography
Would it be good to add a filmography of the Market? - Jmabel | Talk 19:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Possibly worth mentioning: - Jmabel | Talk 00:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Streetwise (1984, documentary)
 * Pike Place Market: Soul of a City (2000, TV documentary)
 * About Us: The Sephardic Jews and the Pike Place Market (2006, TV documentary, part of series About Us'')
 * Black Widow (1987) has a scene in the Inn at the Market
 * The Fabulous Baker Boys (1989) (cited for by the Seattle Film Office map below)
 * Singles (1992) has a scene in the Virginia Inn
 * Sleepless in Seattle (1993) has a scene in the Athenian Inn
 * Border to Border (1998)
 * A Guy Thing (2003)

http://www.filminamerica.com/PacificNorthwest/WA/KingCounty/Seattle/ is a good list of films made around here, but doesn't single out what's in the Market. This map from the Seattle Film Office does. Anyone know if the Market shows up in Harry in Your Pocket, McQ, or Trouble in Mind? I'm pretty sure it does show up in Cinderella Liberty. - Jmabel | Talk 00:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Except for the documentaries, though, I don't think any of these show much that you wouldn't see in any random batch of tourist photos. Not sure about Cinderella Liberty in that respect though: it was a good picture of First Avenue in that era, and may have been partly in the Market, I just don't remember. - Jmabel | Talk 00:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

State of the rewrite, redux
Since there are a lot of resolved issues above, and Rootology sounded serious about getting this to Featured Article status, I thought I'd summarize what I see as the remaining substantive work to be done before we can start "polishing":


 * Finish the history section. (I believe Rootology signed up to do this. - Jmabel | Talk)
 * Right now it really tapers off after the early 1920s.
 * Sort out the claims about the Japanese internment.
 * I have now reworked this using citable statements. - Jmabel | Talk 18:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Refactor much of that history out to a separate History of the Pike Place Market (right now, that's a redirect back to this article) and keep a history here comparable in length to "Attractions" or "How the Market works"
 * Try to find a solid citation for Dynamic Logs / Jitters / Royal Famille du Caniveaux busking in the Market and add them (I'll take this one - Jmabel | Talk) DONE.
 * Someone needs to cite the Pike Place Fish material (Does someone want to do this? - Jmabel | Talk)
 * Maybe add something like a filmography of the Market
 * Desired or no? Comments above, please.
 * Either cite solidly for, or remove, "Locals make a habit of emptying their pockets and rubbing Rachel's snout for good luck." (I say just remove it.) - Jmabel | Talk)
 * DONE. Given the lack of anyone saying otherwise, I've removed it. If the habit was at all widespread, Rachel would take in a lot more than $6-9,000/year. - Jmabel | Talk 17:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ideally, get images of: (I'll see what I can do - Jmabel | Talk)
 * Roll call for vendors
 * A circa 1923 map to show how little has changed
 * At least one early (early enough to be public domain) pamphlet or poster
 * Any other attractions / longstanding Market businesses that merit mention?
 * Anything else someone wants to add to the article?

By the way, we currently link the Commons category (usually my preference) but I did make a nice Commons page as well. - Jmabel | Talk 19:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Back to work
Sorry, I took that break and then got distracted by a bunch of side work and other stuff. Back to work! I'm working back off the history layout here but the article itself is now 105kb and 9463 words of readable prose already, and I'm only up to 1921. I'm going to start to strip down the History section down to key bits and begin a fork to History of the Pike Place Market. I'll focus on all the "important" bits in an overview style then... the heavy duty minutae that I've been banging out belongs in the History article, anyway. Once I strip it down and then add in all the key bits we can start going back through everything to clean it up for FAC... rootology ( C )( T ) 02:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Name
Names that locals call the Market include:


 * the Pike Place Public Market
 * the Pike Place Market
 * the Public Market
 * the Market

Names non-locals call it include:


 * Pike Market
 * Pike's Market

I think the name warrants a discussion. Sources must be found to back up my claim first, though. Wakablogger2 (talk) 22:07, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Another non-local name: Pike Street Market Wakablogger2 (talk) 23:43, 14 June 2010 (UTC)