Talk:Pillai (Kerala title)

Malayali Illathu Nair Pillais and Tamil Pillais
From Born to Dance by Harriet Ronken Lynton: "Pillai is a caste name belonging to a community which in the old days taught Bharata Natyam in Tamil Nadu, mainly in Tanjavur. Some families in Kerala having nothing to do with dance also use the surname, Pillai."

'''There is a Tamil caste called Illathu Pillai. They are not Nairs. They belong to Vellalar community. Ittassery/Idachery Pillais are also not related to Illathu Nairs. People of Ittassery/Idachery community were milk suppliers. They have similarities with the Konar caste of Tamil Nadu.''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.219.50.5 (talk) 05:08, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Rajan Pillai and Ravi Pillai are Vellalars
Many people had mistaken Rajan Pillai and Ravi Pillai as Malayali Nairs. They are not Malayalis. They are Tamil Pillais. Their mother tongue is Tamil.

Rajan Pillai belongs to Shaiva-Vellalar Pillai community: http://www.saivaneri.org/pillai_greats_page3.htm

Ravi Pillai too is Tamil Pillai: https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Pillai_(community).html

Once I saw on a website that Ravi Pillai belongs to Thirunelveli Vellalar Pillai community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.219.50.5 (talk) 05:22, 6 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I have encountered numerous Vellalar websites claiming that individuals from the Nair community are Vellalars. Some websites even assert that Kerala Pillais, Menons, Nambiars, and Kiriyathil Nairs are Vellalars, which appears to be a misleading statement. It's worth noting that Ravi Pillai belongs to a Nair family, and his wife and relatives are also part of the Nair community. You can find wedding videos of Ravi Pillai's daughter and son's on the internet, showcasing Nair customs and styles.
 * I cannot confirm the details about Rajan Pillai, but his wife belongs to the Nair Pillai caste. It's understandable that the claims and behaviors of some Tamils can be frustrating nowadays. R.Nair.1117 (talk) 14:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Vellalar Origin of Nairs
Tagging

According to tradition(Keralolpathi), Vellalars were feudatory overlords who were bestowed with titles such as Menon, Panicker, Kurup, Nambiar, etc. It is believed the Vellalars were the progenitors of corresponding Nair lineages. The Indologist Oppert claimed 64 families of karakattu vellalars formed the original Kiriyathil Nair (The highest subclass of Nairs) group. This is attested to by L. K. Ananthakrishnan Iyer. In the Cochin area, some of these Kiriyam Nairs were also called Vellayma Nairs, signifying the connection to Vellala or Valluvan of the Tamil lands. These are considered superior to the rest. There is a recent study which shows 8000 Kongu Vellalar moved to Kerala under the Kongu Cholas. Copper plate land grants in the west coat to Vellala Karalars date their settlements to the ninth century at the latest. (This also the time period from when there is solid evidence of “Nairs” - Gough 1961 describes them as vassal chieftains). The Nanchinad Vellalas, are another classic example of Vellalas who help sway in Kerala since medieval times when they moved under the Pandyas.:p241.”Like other Sūdras of Travancore, they add the title Pillai to their name, which is often preceded by the title Kannaku.”; p242.”From a copper-plate grant in the possession of the Syrian Christians, dated A.D. 824, we learn that one family of carpenters, and four families of Vellālas, were entrusted with the growing of plants on the sea-coast, the latter being the Karalars or trustees. From this it appears that the Vellālas must have settled on the west coast in the ninth century at the latest. The Nanchinād Vellālas were not originally different from their Pāndyan analogues, but settled in the tāluks above mentioned, over which the Pāndyans held sway during several periods in mediæval times.”; p243.”In their dress and ornaments, too, the Nanchinād Vellālas living in North Travancore differ from those of the south, inasmuch as they adopt the practice of the Nāyars...'''The Nanchinād Vellālas are well known, throughout Travancore, for their thrift, industry, and mathematical acumen. Several families have dropped the designation of Vellāla, and adopted Nanchinād Nāyar as their caste-name.”; p244.”The presents to the bridegroom include...very often an iron writing-style and knife. This is said to be symbolical of the fact that the Vellālas formed the accountant caste of Travancore, and that several families of them were invited from Madura and Tinnevelly to settle down in Nanchinād for this purpose'''...The Nanchinād Vellālas contract temporary alliances with Nāyar women...”</ref

This pattern of Tamil Vellalars becoming Nairs is corroborated by many examples by historians such as M.N Srinivas, S. N. Sadasivan, L. K. Ananthakrishna Iyer, Hayavadana Rao, Subramania Iyer, H. A Stuart, Edgar Thurston, etc. up until the mid 19ty century, with evidence for the same.

Among the 5 original subgroups of Nayars the Illam, Kiriyam , Padamangalam , Swaroopam and Tamilpadam. Two of them that is the Pandamangalam and Tamil Padam have established Tamil origin and the Kiriyathil has a Vellala origin according to tradition. And if you look at the Nair subdivision ranking compiled by Fuller Nair the Tamil subgroups are one of the top 5 out 18, indicating their influence and power, and the Kiriyath is number one. Even among the examples I provided above, most of the Tamil migrant groups seem to naturalise as high ranking nairs eventually.

We know that Kerala was under Tamil control for most of the medieval era. There was an initial wave of Vellalar Chiefs in the medieval period when Kerala was under the Tamil Moovendars, who including the early and Kongu Cheras has their base in Tamil Nadu. Even the Chera Perumals brought Vellalars to administer. It wouldn’t be extraordinary to assume these Tamil Vellalar chiefs became the top echleon of nairs belonging to the Kiriyath group after the Cheras fell. There was continued migration of other Tamil Vellalar groups subsequently till the 19th century who naturalised as Nairs. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 05:35, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

With regards to specifically the Pillais, other than the sources I’ve already mentioned here is one more. Quoting Balakrishnan N. Nair

”Indeed the Pillais among the Nanchinad Vellalas appear to have undergone Sanskritic influence at the hands of the Tamil Brahmins and Kannada “Pottis” at a later stage so that they attained the status of ‘"Amhalavasis” and gradually merged into the same class of ‘‘Nayars” through " inter-marriage. The “Pillais” among the “Nayars of Southern Travancore must therefore be considered originally to have been of Tamil extraction even though for reasons which can be historically adduced this process of “cultural fertilisation” at the lower reaches between two communities of almost identical culture appears to have come to an abrupt end since the beginning of the nineteenth century when Brahmanical ascendancy regained in vigour and led to the stratification of social classes in Travancore.” Cyberanthropologist (talk) 13:21, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

It would be quite fair to omit the unreliable sources as sitush pointed on the Mannadiar talk page. Is it worth claiming the entire Nair community origin based on a newspaper article?. How would someone include Keralolpathi as a primary source asserting the legendary character parasurama beyond myth as the creator of Kerala?. R.C Outlander07@talk 16:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The news paper article can be removed of course, but there are solid primary sources like M.N Srinivas who corroborate it. I’ve added these references too. About Keralolpathi, while it is not a reliable historical source on its own, it is a traditional source rooted in some truth. So I don’t think it should be disregarded completely and should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

William Logan one of the harshest critics of the Keralolpathi, someone who called it a farrago of legendary nonsense also has said the Nairs originated from the Vellalars. ”In this way the real agriculturists except the Vellalar (irrigators) out of whom the class of Nayars seems to have been originally formed, came to be treated as being outside the caste system altogether.” William Logan; P. J. Cherian (2000). William Logan's Malabar Manual: New Edition with Commentaries. 1. Thiruvananthapuram: Kerala Gazetteers Department. p. 116. ISBN 8185499373. OCLC 52039872.

I am not advocating that all Nairs were Vellalars. But I believe the link with the Vellalars is a strong one that must be included as a theory atleast in the Nair page.

Cyberanthropologist (talk) 18:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

The above statement itself says the theory proposed by William logan is obsolete that the common Nayars were treated as Shudras who in turn a part of the caste system. R.C Outlander07@talk 05:18, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

On page 116 William logan stated ''the Nayars —whom they designated as Sudras but in reality, treated as Kshatriyas. Nevertheless, it is perfectly clear from the wording of the Syrians deed that the planters—the islanders—who are still the most numerous body of  Hindus in the district,  were originally an organized agricultural caste with a  distinct function in the body politic. The real fact seems to have been that the Aryans who introduced the political system of caste into  Malabar were unwilling to raise even the aboriginal ruling race to the dignity of the pure  Kshatriya caste of  Aryans. And yet  the  State  organization  required  that  there  should  be  a  protector or  Kshatriya caste,  so they solved the difficulty by inventing a  term— Nay an plu. Nayar (Sans,  leader,  soldier)—  and by applying it to the caste whom they constituted protectors and yet treated as Sudra. In this way, the real agriculturists except the Vellalar (irrigators) out of whom the class of Nayars seems to have been originally formed, came to be treated as being outside the caste system altogether''. The statement clearly distinguished Nair's from Vellalar's. R.C Outlander07@talk 14:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello.no need for confusion. In page number 111 it is clearly given by Mr.William Logan that Nair caste came from Vellalar irrigator. Please check it yourself. https://archive.org/details/malabarmanual0000loga/page/110/mode/2up?q=Vellalar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maravar007 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Dikra ji ap pleaj Meelu (clan) page ko Meelu pe redirect karden hum apke bahut Abhari hongay Dhanevadh Jai Mata Di Jai Shri Raam  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.191.123.172 (talk) 15:52, 14 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Many of these are just assumptions; Nairs are genetically different from Vellalars. R.Nair.1117 (talk) 02:22, 20 December 2023 (UTC)