Talk:Pin-up model

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Untitled
Is there any evidence that this is correct? The user who created this page tried to vandalise the David Kelly page so I'm not I trust their bona fides. FearÉIREANN 04:46 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * It certainly isn't the modern def - seems plausible enough... --mav

Not really related to the content of the article, but I must say the world "pulchritude" is used more on Wikipedia than anywhere else I've seen. I think I've seen it in three articles now. --Delirium 06:07 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

'Tori Spelling'.....pin-up?
"A 'pin-up girl' is a woman whose physical attractiveness would entice one to place a picture of her on a wall." This is the definition given at the beginning of the "Pin-up girl" article. However, under the category of 'Famous Pin-Up Girls of 1990s and 2000s' appears the name 'Tori Spelling'. Tori's name appears with 24 other names in that category including; Pamela Anderson, Halle Berry, Paris Hilton & Dita Von Teese ([name] is in AfD). Tori's inclusion in this catorgory seems out of place. Obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (& to be honest, I probably would anyway). Tori fits in with these iconic pin-up girls, like Dubya does with great political leaders. If Tori is to be included, then former 90210 colleagues, Shannen Doherty & Jennie Garth should also be included....before her. The point I'm trying make is that if Tori stays on that list, then the list should also include thousands of other moderately attractive, Z-list celebrities. Alyson Hannigan, although not my cup of tea, is better qualified to be a pin-up, due to her cult following, of people whom actually place pictures of her on walls. If people really do put pictures of Tori on their walls, I'm sure they are rare & isolated cases. Headcases. If in doubt, check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FHM#100_sexiest_women with ten years multiplied by 100 sexiest women. No mention of Ms Spelling. She just doesn't have the pulchritude. Veej 03:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hello, I hope you will respect my censoring my full name from the above. I am not a "pin-up girl," I do not know why I was listed as one, and I do not appreciate this talk page appearing in my Google results (I have a VERY rare name).  Thank you for your understanding. 64.0.184.130 (talk) 19:06, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

This list is almost pathetic. Anyone who does a magizine spread is listed as a pin up. Bette Page is a Pin Up model. Janet Jackson? Tori Spelling? I don't think so.

Pin-up girl ratio
Should the pin-up girl BWH measurements be included in the article?

The bottom external link
Seems unnecessary to me.

Adding Hot Rod Surf to external Links
Adding Hot Rod Surf to the links they have a geat free pin up girl section on their sight with hot rods and pin ups as well a a great definition of the orgin. (Jmcrownpoint 11:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) The link put in is the front page of the site, not directly relevent to pin up girls. 2) The pin-up sub page does have photos of a few gals-- but this is not supposed to be a comprehensive list of every site with a few photos of gals. Not an imformative addition to the article. 3) The majority of your contributions to Wikipedia seem to be to promote that particular site. Editing to help us build a better encyclopedia is welcome; spamming or trying to promote specific external sites is not. Reverting. -- Infrogmation 13:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The 1970s to the 2000s.
Is a COMPLETE JOKE. As a fan of classic pin-ups. The list from the 70s to the 2000s is completely false as most of those people will NEVER be pin-ups. Fix the list and learn the history before putting random names up there. -- 03:51, 8 August 2007 74.122.179.76


 * Don't know why we can't include people such as Nastassja Kinski, Cheryl Tiegs, Bo Derek, and Farrah Fawcett, whose posters indisputably adorned many college dorm-room walls in the late 1970's / early 1980's... AnonMoos (talk) 11:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Betty Brosmer
Should be something on Betty Brosmer -- she was apparently kind of a "supermodel" in the 1950's, and as famous as many actresses... AnonMoos (talk) 11:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

External link
Link to www.pinupwow.com removed: the site is commercial and the photos are not a good example of contemporary pin-up photography. Helvissa (talk) 12:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Contemporary Pin-Ups
What about including a section on contemporary vintage-style pin-ups? I'm working on a page about Bernie Dexter - what do you think? NO Betty Page want to be people who photoshop the photo so much they have no nose like Bernie mmm don't do it sir.Helvissa (talk) 12:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC) I agree, Bernie Dexter is nothing but a Bettie Page wanna-be. There are too many Dexter photos (and movies!) out there that prove it was her sole intention to copy Bettie Page. The worst part is she won't admit it, so it is incredibly insulting to one's intelligence. There is one trait of Bettie's that Bernie didn't manage to copy....her grammar and spelling. Bettie was well educated and wrote with excellent grammar. Unfortunately, Bernie Dexter cannot say the same. Her posts usually contain misspelled words and poor sentences. I guess you can copy someone's style and mannerisms but you can't copy an intelligent, educated mind.

WTF
It seem that 90% of the women listed aren't pin-up models. They're actors. I'm pretty sure there's a difference. 76.181.232.187 (talk) 14:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Grable1.jpg
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 * I think it's a safe bet the copyright has since lapsed on this one. 68.49.138.170 (talk) 18:21, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Definition of pin-up girl
Following up on the comments of a number of editors above:

Merriam-Webster defines "pinup girl" as "a girl or woman whose glamorous qualities make her a suitable subject for a pinup". Then, pinup as "a photograph or poster of a person considered to have glamorous qualities". (Starting 1941)

The Oxford American dictionary (a recent publication) defines "pinup" as "As poster showing a famous person or sex symbol, designed to be displayed on a wall. A person shown in such a poster."

This (perhaps too unreliable) site claims, however, that the "practice" goes back to the 1890s. 

On the other hand, my "feeling" about pinup girls is that they have to do with WWII, and the WWII mentality that made naked women on calendars a feature of many typical garages for many years. That same feeling says "anybody can get their picture on a poster, these days". So there once was a concept which was (very loosely) akin to Wikipedia's later idea of notability.

Now, however, with great personal discipline, I have reviewed and carefully considered the pictures of Tori Spelling, Dita Von Teese and others, and have come to the conclusion that these women meet most definitions of "pinup girls".

But then, so did my grandmother, when she was in her twenties. Maybe my other grandmother, too. What's to say a person is "worthy"(if that's the word) to appear semi-clad on a wall? I'm not sure this article belongs in Wikipedia at all, but I am certain that making a list of every notable Wikipedia woman who someone out there considers attractive is unencyclopedic. Except for a couple examples to demonstrate the topic, the lists should go. Piano non troppo (talk) 01:14, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I've been removing women from this list that haven't been specifically identified as a "pinup" in their respective biography articles. Having once been a model before being active in Hollywood does not seem to meet the generally accepted criteria for "Pinup". While being a traditionalist in that regard, this article will eventually need to move beyond the gender-based restriction of "girl". - JeffJonez (talk) 14:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I also think that the modern pin ups like Bernie Dexter and others don't fit this definition ans should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.68.65.235 (talk) 18:13, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What's the cutoff date for a "real" pinup girl? 1950s? Early '60s? No, I think any woman who sits for racy photos is a "pinup girl", but a one-shot in Maxim seems insufficient. - JeffJonez (talk) 20:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I wonder if the history can't be pushed back past the 1890s. In Bleak House, chapter 20, the character Weevle decorates his room with portraits from a collection called "The Divinities of Albion, or Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty".  If the practice didn't spring entirely from Dickens's admittedly fertile imagination, it was around in the 1850s.  --Ammodramus (talk) 18:35, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Global view
... needed. For example, Gravure idol could usefully be merged into this article. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 18:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

blatant ads/unsubstantiated and unreferenced claims
Wow, I'm a bit bothered by many of the unsubstantiated implications in the following paragraph: "Pin-up style has emerged again as a trend in recent years, thanks in part to the popularity of Suicide Girls, an erotica website that features tattooed and pierced "alternative" models sometimes styled in 1950s-inspired pin-up looks. A rekindled popularity for Bettie Page, thanks in part to the biographical movie The Notorious Bettie Page (2005), and the celebrity status of Dita Von Teese have also contributed. A number of stores cater to this market, including PinUpGirlClothing.com, PinUpPeepShop.com, and BabyGirlBoutique.com. The clothing that they carry is specifically catered to exaggerated the hourglass shape pinup girls are adored for, and include such brands as Bettie Page Clothing, Dixiefried, Deadly Dames, and PinUp Couture. Many new publications have also emerged due to the growing popularity of the modern day pin-up. These publications feature the new looks and lifestyles of the modern pin up that may have tattoos, heavier make-up, and a hot-rod built with her own hands. The lifestyle of the modern day pin-up is a lot more independent than the more delicate pin-ups of yesteryear."

First, I'm don't think the credit to Suicide Girls is suitable considering the implied weight here, and I don't think this credit is appropriate especially as the site only started in 2001. Certainly there were a significant number of people and organizations that can be credited with the ongoing popularity of pin ups especially 50s styled imagery. This popularity and revival if anything started and carried through the 80s and 90s with the whole rockabilly and psychobilly revival scene. Similarly Bettie Page continued to be popular for decades and a recent film from 2005 only fed into the market and interest that already existed, sure, some new people may have been exposed by the result of it, but there was ample media produced and reproduced about her and her work through the 90s and earlier 2000s, if not earlier. Centerone (talk) 01:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The short version: It's WP:OR and so it's out. - JeffJonez (talk) 03:13, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Segregation
I have been researching the contribution of black soldiers in WWII, with particular reference to American segregated units and Caribbean troops serving in the UK forces. A recent obituary for Lena Horne mentioned that she was a faabvourite pin-up of black troops. Surely there must have been others, which just poses the question why are all the examples given white? - Pifkin (talk) 15:59, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * While not conceding that "all the examples" are white, your most productive course of action would be finding or writing articles that you feel are missing from this list. Be bold!, but in reviewing Lena Horne, I see no mention of her status of pinup, or a modeling career at all. - JeffJonez (talk) 00:08, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Honor Blackman
I've removed her from 1930s pin-ups, on account of her being born in 1925. I imagine there may be a case for adding her to the list of 1960s pinups. Paul Brookes (talk) 00:34, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Move to "pinup" to de-genderfy the entry
The origin of the "pin-up" is obviously the "pin-up girl", but we've had male pin-ups for quite a while now. 

In order to best reflect this larger context, the article should be renamed "Pin-up".

Moving forward, how do we best objectify males in this article? :) - JeffJonez (talk) 19:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)


 * JeffJonez -- I don't think that "pin-up" as commonly used is very gender-neutral, but the traditional corresponding term for depictions of males is beefcake... AnonMoos (talk) 18:48, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Case for Gina Elise
If you enter "pin-ups" on the Google search page, the first suggestion you will see in the drop-down is Pin-ups For Vets, the not-for profit founded by Gina Elise. Since she has distributed thousands of calendars [with multiple period-type pictures each], posters, and t-shirts since 2006, I think a good case can be made that her name should stay in the 2000s category and the link to Pin-ups For Vets maintained.

Both keep being deleted. I put it back, so please will you consider keeping it there?

Dlschgo (talk) 07:35, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The link redirects to an article about the effort, not the woman. Keep working on the article, and include a section specifically and exclusively about Ms. Elise and it should be a home run. - JeffJonez (talk) 15:39, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, the article has referenced links that will surely lead you to Gina Elise. Btw, there was a Gina Elise Wiki article once upon a time that was disppeared by the powers that be. That is why the link leads where it does. Putting greater emphasis on Gina in the PUFV articles exposes it to the same danger of being challenged (I know, because of challenges when it was there.)

I will try to come up with something that will address your concerns and objections without threatening her organization's article. Thanks for your honest feedback! 99.140.197.216 (talk) 05:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This page, for whatever reason, includes a list of pin-up girls.. not organizations. The best defense against removal of articles are sources that prove notability. Adding additional biographical information about a founder shouldn't make an organization's article more likely to be challenged, as long as that information isn't promotional. I never saw the article about Gina, but that's a common reason for arguments for deletion. I'll remove the link for now, since it's not currently relevant, but I'll keep an eye on the existing article. - JeffJonez (talk) 13:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Varga girls, Bettie Page, Sun Page 3 girls, Playmate of the month centrefolds, etc.?
This article can and should be expanded, there's a lot of history there. OttawaAC (talk) 02:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hilda by Duane Bryers, another fictional pinup, like the many varga girls. the list of models includes too many who are mostly actresses. lets say it together: every single young attractive female actress of the late twentieth century has had images taken of them which qualify as "pinups", unless they somehow avoided publicity to become famous.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Biased POV?
In the section on feminism: "In the early 20th century, these drawings of women helped define certain body images—such as being clean, being healthy, and being wholesome—and were enjoyed by both "normal" men and women; but as time progressed these images changed from respectable to illicit."

Should this should be fixed to at least indicate that it's an argument put forth by the source cited for it? The definition of "illicit" can vary wildly from culture to culture; what one in Sweden would consider OK, for example, may be seen as highly illicit in Saudi Arabia, for example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrewmania (talk • contribs) 06:28, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Notable contemporary artists..
If "Notable contemporary pin-up artists include Paul John Ballard, Elias Chatzoudis, Armando Huerta,Cris Delara and Chuck Bauman" then perhaps someone should work on Wikipedia entries for them. Centerone (talk) 03:59, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

What's a "pin-up gimmick"?
Quote: Also, Rayna Von Tosh, of SHIMMER fame had a burlesque pin up gimmick.

Whassat mean? Please clarify! Thanks, Maikel (talk) 11:12, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

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Pin-up makeup style
The makeup section is lacking structure and needs so rewording. Also, there is only one citation. Im working on a draft.Jpegallery (talk) 01:39, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Yank Magazine
Didn't the term "pin-up girl" originate with Yank: The Army Weekly? I can't find confirmation of that (yet), but it seems to be in my long-term memory. And since Yank was a major source of pin-ups during WWII, shouldn't there be a reference in the article - if, indeed, Yank had something to do with the term?

Isoruku (talk) 21:32, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Yank must have had a big role in popularizing the term but they didn't invent it. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the earliest documented use of the term was in Life magazine, July 7, 1941: "Dorothy Lamour is No. 1 pin-up girl of the U.S. Army." The first issue of Yank was published on June 17, 1942. Ewulp (talk) 00:54, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Beefcake into Pin-up model
Joyous! | Talk 03:50, 3 March 2023 (UTC) Pin-up model moved to be gender-neutral (instead of pin-up girl/cheesecake) back in 2016. Might as well finish the consolidation. VernoWhitney (talk) 18:50, 11 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Support. The beefcake article in nearly twenty years old and appears to be no more than start class. The pin-up model article already has specialist sections, such as African-American, so it should be able to accommodate the merger easily. -- Polly Tunnel (talk) 12:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)


 * No, like no. A pin-up model should never be confused with a beefcake. Like end of story. I get that it's 2022 and there are plenty of dudes "pinning up" centerfolds from Playgirl of "Beefcakes" on their garage walls, but a pin-up girl/ model, should never be confused with a beefcake/ cheesecake, smh. Koskiryan (talk) 08:10, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Pin-up dude; guy; male; ect., is 100% acceptable for Pin-up model, but never beefcake, like duh. Smh at whoever even proposed merging Beefcake into Pin-up model. Koskiryan (talk) 08:19, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It would make more sense to cross reference Beefcake and Cheesecake, without merging either into here. MatchesMalone (talk) 15:55, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Koskiran, this is Wikipedia, we have some expected standards of civility and professionalism, we try not to treat others as dumb or talk like stereotypical teenagers. It makes it hard to take your argument seriously. Dronebogus (talk) 06:20, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge, given that Beefcake is one of several independently notable subset of pin-up models (Page 3 Girl, Sweater girl and Beefcake for example), suggesting that these topics are best discussed separately. Klbrain (talk) 12:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I don’t know the point of this merge proposal besides merging stuff for the sake of it. Dronebogus (talk) 16:53, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Is it time to close this discussion? The proposal has been open for nine months. I've been the only voice to support it and all others have been against. I'd like to withdraw my support and suggest that someone closes this discussion with the result being a consensus opposed to the proposal. Polly Tunnel (talk) 14:40, 11 January 2023 (UTC)