Talk:Pink Venom

Discuss please: Billboard Hits of the World Charts
I understand why people want to include them in the charts table, especially when a band has reached number one on the Hits of the World charts but not national singles charts. I'll refer you to the principles listed at WP:RECORDCHARTS:


 * No one disputes the reliability of charts published by Billboard, however when Rollingstone launched their Top 100 for the US, both the Hits of the World and Rollingstone Hot 100 were urged to be used with caution here
 * There has been two other discussions were "Hits of the World" have been mentioned and the general view is that there isn't a valid reason for including the charts when there is already an established national record chart, see discussions here.
 * Nobody has yet provided a valid reason or consensus that they should be included. They are valid charts in the sense they are published by a reputable source but they are not recongised within South Korea as an official measure of success in the Korean music market
 * The current reasons for including them seem to be "well they're included elsewhere" but per WP:OTHERSTUFF, that isn't really a valid discussion point. If 100 people who couldn't swim jumped into the sea, does that mean the 101st person should jump into the sea too? No it doesn't.

I believe the only reason we are having this discussion is because "Pink Venom" is number one on the South Korean Songs chart published by Billboard but not on the Circle One so fans want to include it to say that the band have another number one in S Korea. I'm by no means diminishing the achievements (or not) of the band, however the official and most widely recognised single chart for South Korea is the Circle Chart. Billboard's version is a new chart and yet to establish its dominance or even longevity. Rollingstone Hot 100 barely lasted a year without being shelved. I urge editors who wish to add in the chart to engage in discussion first. >> Lil-unique1  (  talk  ) — 21:39, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Well I guess you are right. 🤷‍♀️ But Im wondering if the information about pre-orders that were reported by the K-pop companies (JYP, SM, YG etc.), should be deleted from every article? And also the South Korean Billboard chart should be also deleted from the new song's pages since it hasnt "established its dominance or even longevity". Im just asking. MotherofSnakes (talk) 00:05, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * In theory yes, anywhere you see a record label promoting the sales of an artist it should be used with extreme caution if at all. As an editor we all have our favourite artists and people generally edit articles they are interested in. I happened to come across this one and noticed some inaccuracies so removed them as appropriate. There's millions of song articles - no single person can be expected to review, patrol and remove inaccuracies from every single article. Wikipedia works by community - if you notice someone has edited incorrectly you politely point out guidance, rules or procedure that demonstrates this. Then that person makes better edits next time and passes on the policies. This is how we collectively achieve a better, more factual and more accurate wikipedia. >> Lil-unique1  (  talk  ) — 14:10, 3 September 2022 (UTC)


 * South Korea had its own Billboard K-pop Hot 100 which existed from August 2011 to July 2014 and from June 2017 to April 2022. While Hits of the World was introduced in February 2022, South Korea Songs was only added in May 2022 and during the same week K-pop Hot 100 was stopped being issued.


 * Both Circle Digital Chart and K-pop Hot 100 have been used in all South Korean song and discography articles. When K-pop Hot 100 was stopped this year and South Korea Songs was added to Hits of the World, editors have started using South Korea Songs as a replacement for K-pop Hot 100 (maybe because both are Billboard charts, see BTS singles discography for example). (Disclaimer: I am not one who started this neither I have revamped any artist's discography for this.)


 * Now, I asked you to reach a consensus not as you assumed but this situation is unique to South Korea and to ensure same thing can be done for all the South Korean song and discography articles. Thank you.  -ink&amp;fables  «talk»  03:48, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I didn't assume - Pointed out that the use of Hits of the World is contested. Per WP:BRD and per WP:CONSENSUS, if someone removes or reverts content then it means any assumed consensus is contested. The onus is then on the individual wishing to add back the original information to establish consensus. Consensus is not established by status quo or the number of times something occurs. Whether something appears in one article or 100, makes no difference as to whether it is correct or not.


 * And no the situation is not unique to South Korea at all - Billboard has introduced Hits of the Word for many countries. Veitnam had the same thing, The general consensus on talk pages I linked you to is that Hits of the World charts should not be included alongside other nationally recognised charts, there have been no compelling arguments that demonstrate why they should be. Introducing a new chart, even if its been considered a replacement for the old K-Pop 100 (which is WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS), requires discussion and consensus. Any arguments for including it here have been "Hits of the World" replaces the "K-Pop Hot 100", which doesn't demonstrate valid reasons for either chart being included.


 * As happened with Rollingstone Hot 100. I came across this article by happenstance and removed stuff that I understand to be incorrect per rules and consensus. It is procedurally incorrect for editors to claim that because its done elsewhere it must be correct, without checking the current consensus and guidelines or to simply revert because you don't like it. It also becomes indiscriminate to include multiple charts for multiple countries. What does 'Hits of the World' at to the current chart performance? Very little because its yet to be established as an effective or well-known measure of chart success in South Korea, its published by BILLBOARD US not the local BILLBOARD for SK, so is clearly aimed at Western Audiences and is viewed through a western lense. There's no evidence that anyone outside of the US cares or pays attention to the chart. The long established Circle Chart (formerly the GAON) chart is longer than the short 25-position hits of the world chart and has a rich history as the main/official/most widely recognised chart in South Korea. It was removed from "Pink Venom" because it was understood to be surplus to requirements, irrespective of how widely it is used elsewhere. Adoption of it alongside Circle Charts needs to have wide ranging support from music editors, not just fans of Korean music who wish to show their favourite act got number one irrespective of whichever chart otherwise it reads like "i didn't like the position on circle chart so I include Billboard too. I want as many number one positions as possible". Its for the same reason we stopped allowing the Rollingstone 200 albums chart before it died of its own circumstances like its Hot 100 sibling chart. If there's valid reasons for including the chart other than "its a different look at the market" then there's scope for discussion but at the moment Hits of the World is not recognised or established as a measure of chart success in South Korea. >> Lil-unique1  (  talk  ) — 14:10, 3 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Vietnam is not included on the Hits of the World, it is Vietnam Hot 100 not Vietnam Songs. When I say it is unique to South Korea, I don't mean that having a Hits of the World chart in addition of country's industry official chart but about previously having a country specific Billboard Hot 100 chart which was stopped after its addition to Hits of the World. "Pink Venom" isn't the first song to top South Korea Songs but failed to reach atop of Circle Digital Chart; "Yet to Come (The Most Beautiful Moment)" by BTS, "Girls" by Aespa, "Sneakers" by Itzy are others. Why? Because all these songs (or the albums having these singles) were released on Friday to target most charts which tracks from Friday to Thursday, like Billboard charts. Circle Digital Chart tracking period is from Sunday to Saturday. Also, because Circle Digital Chart doesn't include data from YouTube Music which is currently one of the biggest and fastest growing music platform in South Korea. Well that is a whole different discussion and don't want to get more into it. See, I am not currently arguing if South Korea Songs should be included on this page or not. But what should be done for discography of South Korean artists which has combined Billboard K-pop Hot 100 and South Korea Songs in the same column? And should we remove South Korea Songs from other South Korean songs' articles?


 * And please stop repeating the same thing that I or other editors argued to add South Korea Songs just because it reached number one. It is something which you have "assumed". I would have argued its inclusion even if it hadn't reached number one. Thank you.  -ink&amp;fables  «talk»  03:43, 4 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not even sure why the K-Pop Hot 100 was included to be honest but that's a tangential discussion. If the Billboard and Circle charts track different things then there needs to be a discussion about it. From what I understand, Billboards Hits of the World only track streaming, and sales - there's no mention on Billboard's pages whether video music is included. My issue is that if we're including it based solely on a different tracking week then that isn't correct. If its because the chart formulae and methodology is different? That's more acceptable and I can see an argument as to why we might want to include it. >> Lil-unique1  (  talk  )' — 14:42, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea which will affect this article
I've a started a discussion at WikiProject Korea over the usage of Billboard Hits of the World – South Korea Songs. You are welcome to participate in the discussion. Thank you.  -ink&amp;fables  «talk»  07:16, 7 September 2022 (UTC)