Talk:Pinocchio (1940 film)

GAR review?
@The helper5667: you requested a GAR review of this article last year. We're emptying the category and deprecating the process (duplicative work, I have to guess why you're asking for a GAR). Could you either start a GAR (using User:SD0001/GAR-helper to make your life easier), or remove this from the category? Femke (alt) (talk) 10:15, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Disney's Pinocchio
Template:Disney's Pinocchio has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Plot
As we have a Milan-based IP editor who has been adding potentially unneeded details in the plot section, I'm opening up a discussion here as opposed to edit warring and violating WP:3RR since this is my last revert within 24 hours.

So, one of the questions I have is this: is it relevant to mention Pinocchio's reluctance to follow Foulfellow and Gideon to the coachman in the plot section? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Why can't I write about the reluctance of Pinocchio to go with Honest John and Gideon the second time and of the illegality of Pleasure Island which is an important part of the plot? Also, where's the confirmation that Monstro is a sperm whale? 151.34.242.16 (talk) 10:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * According to the hidden comment in the plot section header as well as WP:FILMPLOT, excessive detail should be avoided. Also, Richard Ellis's 2011 book The Great Sperm Whale confirms Monstro is a sperm whale. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Unless it comes from someone of Disney or linked to Disney (like for example the book Mouse Under Glass as source), I can't see it as an actual confirmation and the current way is perfect. Also, the same Geppetto states that many days passed since he, Figaro and Cleo were swallowed by Monstro. If those details help making sense to the plot, then they are not irrelevant or unnecessary adds. This is not Simple English Wikipedia. 151.44.77.140 (talk) 01:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course, a plot summary doesn't have to describe events on screen verbatim but summaries must form a straightforward reading of the film. Also, as per WP:PSTS, we can use secondary sources for Monstro being a sperm whale. I've already asked around on WT:FILM, WP:ANIMATION and WT:DISNEY for their thoughts on the matter. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I support the revert. The anonymous editor is introducing his own subjective opinion and analysis. Betty Logan (talk) 04:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't see any Disney sources saying Monstro is a sperm whale, including book and comic book adaptations, and I don't see why we shouldn't let simply the word whale just like in any other Disney media, so I don't see where the "subjective opinions and analysis" would be. 151.82.10.187 (talk) 09:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The claim that the whale is a sperm whale is sourced in the article. Have you got a source that disputes this labeling? As for subjective opinion, you added what seems to be your own commentary ("as if days and more had passed") and analysis ("The two are both illiterate and represent temptation and dishonesty, and they are terrified, especially the fox, of the law and police")—the latter is especially telling because it lacks a source. It might be possible to justify the first statement using the context of the film (it's so long ago since I have seen it that I can't properly remember it), but the second definitely runs foul of MOS:FILMPLOT without a source to back it up. Betty Logan (talk) 15:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not really, the sperm whale thing is just a personal opinion from a source outside of Disney and not related to it. And no, it's not a personal commentary of mine. Because the same Geppetto clearly says in the film that they've been in Monstro's belly for days, and Honest John shows his illiteracy by "reading" Pinocchio's book upside down and being incapable of spelling his name, and he really thinks he got a massime amount of money from Stromboli for a literal living, talking and stringless marionette instead of a miserable amount, not to mention Gideon's incapacity to write the second the second time they approach Pinocchio. And the same Jiminy clearly says that Honest John is "temptation". "Remember what I said about temptation, son? Well, that's HIM." Here's also a source they're discussione in another topic below: https://collider.com/disney-pinocchio-remake-cast-and-character-guide/#Keegan_Michael_Key_as_Honest_John_Worthington_Foulfellow - "Just as Jiminy represents conscience, the charming and persuasive Honest John represents temptation and dishonesty." 151.34.100.188 (talk) 16:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

As it turns out, the IP has been identified as a sockpuppet. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 09:59, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Honest John and Gideon
In the voice cast section, the paragraph where Honest John and Gideon represent dishonesty and temptation is unsourced and as per WP:FILMCAST, "Subjective interpretation using labels such as protagonist, antagonist, villain, or main character, should be avoided. The plot summary should convey such roles."

Do you think the paragraph should be kept or removed? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 11:34, 22 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I think it should be kept, at least the part that was added and then reverted, just to give a very brief take on what Honest John and Gideon represent (temptation and dishonesty), and what they show to to fear is also part of what they represent, just like Jiminy Cricket representing conscience and morality. Ratmanny (talk) 12:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There can be "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts" of characters based on primary sources (in this case, the film) per WP:PRIMARY. However, I find the portion "...represent temptation and dishonesty..." to be interpretative and needs a secondary source stating that, per WP:SECONDARY. The other details seem okay to me per WP:PRIMARY, though it would probably help to have an inline citation referencing the film for these. Outside the "Plot" section, it feels amiss to write a sentence that lacks an inline citation. Erik (talk &#124; contrib) (ping me) 14:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * How about this? https://collider.com/disney-pinocchio-remake-cast-and-character-guide/#Keegan_Michael_Key_as_Honest_John_Worthington_Foulfellow
 * It says literally in the section about Honest John, "Just as Jiminy represents conscience, the charming and persuasive Honest John represents temptation and dishonesty". Ratmanny (talk) 14:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)