Talk:Pioneer/Archive 1

photo
What about the photo album and accessory company named Pioneer? They're a big name in the business. http://www.pioneerphotoalbums.com/ -- Digital  Gadget  08:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Create an article about them and add a link to the disambiguation page. You know what to do! Pro hib it O ni o ns  (T) 09:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Primary topic discussion
I'm opening a discussion here following a dispute with another editor (diff) and an exchange on my user talk page. There is a disambiguation formatting convention that if an article exists at a given title with no parenthetical clarifier, it should be linked at the top of the title's associated disambiguation page via a primary topic line (see MOS:D). Since there is an article at pioneer, it should be linked at the top of this disambiguation page per the aforementioned guideline. If there's an argument that the article currently at pioneer shouldn't be the primary topic, we can file a move request at WP:RM to determine whether to move this disambiguation page to pioneer and move the current pioneer article to a disambiguated title. However, until that discussion takes place, I feel that this page should follow current disambiguation page formatting guidelines and the primary topic line should be included. --Muchness (talk) 03:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Either you are in the legal profession, or have been in Wikipedia way too long. A guideline is just that. It is not an iron cast rile that needs to be made "a federal case" of. I wikilinked the term at the top to the article. It need not have a "primary topic line". And for the record, we are not having a dispute--mrg3105 (comms) ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ 04:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Not having a dispute? The page history seems to disagree with you on that one, as does that of Pioneer.  Whatever disagreements there are over the latter article, it remains the case that the preferred format for a disambiguation page to link the primary topic (in this case, currently Pioneer) in the first line with a brief definition, followed by an introductory line for the other entries. If the primary topic details an original as well as current usage of a term, I'm sure that can be reflected in what's written here.  H.G. 06:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it needs to have a primary topic line, because it has a primary topic. Of course we can ignore all rules, but there would need to be a reason to do so, and consensus on that. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * So what you're alleging, mrg, is that the military definition of "pioneer" (historically AND currently) is different from the definition most of us are familiar with ("a person or an organisation who is one of the first to do something"); consequently, the definition on the disambiguation page should not ignore the original/military meaning in favor of the more modern/derivative meaning. Is this correct? If so, (and Merriam-Webster confirms the military definition) there's absolutely no reason why the definition on the disambiguation page can't reflect both meanings; in fact, it probably should. It's fairly preposterous, though, to suggest that the definition reflect only the military usage, since the vast majority of entries on this page have absolutely nothing to do with combat engineers. We might as well make the bicycle page all about penny-farthings. --Fullobeans (talk) 07:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you look at the changes I made, you will see that I had not suggested that pioneer be only defined in the military sense. However, I object to a derived modern meaning being used as the absolute and only definition of the word. Pioneer in other two meaning is rarely if ever used without a qualifier, "in a field" in the case of innovator, and by geographical location in the case of a settler--mrg3105 (comms) ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ 13:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm skeptical whether the article at the primary topic title pioneer is currently covering the most common usage of the word. At any rate, I've opened a move request discussion at Talk:Pioneer (archived discussion now located at Talk:Pioneer (military)) to hopefully get some clarity on this matter. --Muchness (talk) 12:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, the move u requested at wp:Requested moves would be discussed on this talk page here, at a section named Requested move, which i'll create for you now. doncram (talk) 16:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No it wouldn't, because I was referring to a move request resolved prior to your comment. I was requesting that the article formerly at pioneer be moved to pioneer (military), and the dab page moved to pioneer. That move has been completed and the relevant move request archived. I've attempted to clarify the prior move discussion below, at --Muchness (talk) 02:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I am sceptical about dictionaries. In any case, common usage has little to do with it. That, is what the disambiguation redirect is for on the article. My personal belief is that much confusion can be avoided if logic is used in naming articles. This is why I often include etymological entry in the article to show evolution in the meaning of the article's subject, which is sometimes considerable. In this case, a "pioneer in the field" is a literal reference tot he road construction the workers in pioneer companies were engaged in, and were therefore "ahead of the rest".--mrg3105 (comms) ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ 13:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

External links and extra definitions
I have reverted to JHunterJ's version. Disambiguation pages are for navigating between Wikipedia articles. They are not for external links or entries which don't lead to Wikipedia articles. Thank you. H.G. 07:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

split The Pioneer from Pioneer
Can "The Pioneer", which is used as the title for 2 works of art and for 2 publications, be split out from "Pioneer"? The former dab at The Pioneer was redirected to Pioneer. I've now restored it, adding the 4th item. Can it stay, and if so the 3 within the current Pioneer article can be dropped? If not, the new one, The Pioneer (Visalia, California), needs to be added to Pioneer. I think "The Pioneer" is a distinct usage, worth separating, but i don't care very much. doncram (talk) 16:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

disambiguation vs. list of items having the word
It appears to me that many of the "Business" and "Other" items on this disambiguation page don't need disambiguation here. For example two places named "Pioneer High School" should be disambiguated at separate dab for that, there's no need to mix them into "Other" here. FYI, there are 63 places listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places that include the word Pioneer: Above list of NRHPs with word "Pioneer" is courtesy of User:Elkman, who provides a generator tool. I think the one named "The Pioneer" needs disambiguation, but most of the rest do not. doncram (talk) 16:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
It was requested by Muchness to move the dab "Pioneer" to "Pioneer (military)". This was discussed in sections above, but mixed in with other stuff. This section created for discussion of that request, still current at wp:Requested moves. doncram (talk) 16:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment It seems that "Pioneer" serves more general disambiguation purposes than just covering military issues. It seems to me that a separate list-article, a set index article, on military uses of the term pioneer can be created, and be included in a "See also" section of the Pioneer disambiguation article. doncram (talk) 16:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I just want to correct an apparent misconception, I did not request to move the dab Pioneer to Pioneer (military) as stated above. I requested that the article formerly at pioneer be moved to pioneer (military), and the article formerly at pioneer (disambiguation) be moved to pioneer. The discussion took place at Talk:Pioneer (military); the request was completed on 12:03, 28 September 2008 (diff) and delisted from WP:RM (diff). The issue you're raising now is independent of the (now resolved and archived) earlier move request. --Muchness (talk) 02:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and archive this discussion, since its premise was based on a misconception, it hasn't been listed at WP:RM, and no argument has been made in favor of this move request. --Muchness (talk) 03:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

propose to reduce page
Shouldn't the Pioneer disambig page be limited to items that are likely to be the object of a reader's search? Please understand, I am new to dab page editing and I am not sure of the rules. But I think the phrases that merely include the word "pioneer" should be deleted or moved to separate new list-articles on companies having the word Pioneer in their name, etc., getting the dab down to just the following useful for disambiguation. This involves dropping Pioneer High School, Bush Pioneers, and other usages that i don't think would be searched for here. doncram (talk) 20:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You're basically on track, except you need to be careful not to be over zealous about removing items simply based on the article title. Many names are commonly known as "Pioneer", but the article may have a somewhat different title -- often for the purposes of disambiguation. For example, based on their logos and company sites, Pioneer Corporation, Pioneer Hi-Bred, Pioneer Petroleum are all commonly known as simply Pioneer, and perhaps to a lesser degree, Pioneer Investments and Pioneer Surgical Technology may be referred to as such in some contexts. Similarly for many of the other entries, the more precise title may have been used for disambiguation -- or the simple term may be a valid alternate name. So some care needs to be exercised when trimming items. To be honest, the list at this point doesn't seem very bloated. There might be a few that could go, but I don't see a pressing need. Some, such as Geneon should probably be linked to through a redirect. older ≠ wiser 21:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

(Begin proposed reduced page) Pioneer or The Pioneer may refer to:

Arts and publications: * The Pioneer (Visalia, California), a sculpture by Solon H. Borglum listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places * The Pioneers (Elmwood, Illinois), a sculpture by Lorado Taft * The Pioneers (novel), a book by James Fenimore Cooper * The Pioneers (band), a Jamaican vocal trio * The Pioneer (Indian newspaper), an English-language newpaper published in India * The Pioneer, a nineteenth-century literary journal edited by James Russell Lowell * The Pioneer, a painting by Frederick McCubbin Geography * Pioneer, California, USA * Pioneer, Iowa, USA * Pioneer, Louisiana, USA * Pioneer, Singapore, Singapore Military * Pioneer (military), a type of soldier employed to perform engineering construction tasks * Pioneer (submarine), an 1862 submarine Politics and religion * Pioneers (missions agency), a Christian missionary organization * Pioneering (Bahá'í), unpaid lay missionary work for the Bahá'í religion * Pioneer Movement, a communist youth movement * Mormon pioneers, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who migrated to the Salt Lake Valley * Pioneer, a level of Baptized Publishers of Jehovah's Witnesses

Other uses * Pioneer program, a series of NASA probes launched between 1958 and 1978 * Pioneer (Amtrak), a now-discontinued passenger train operated by Amtrak * Pioneer (schooner), a ship at the South Street Seaport Museum in New York City * Pioneer species, a plant adapted to an otherwise barren environment * Pioneer butterfly or Belenois aurota

See also * The Pioneer * Pioneer Township (disambiguation) * American pioneer * American Pioneers to the Northwest Territory * Settler * Innovator * All pages beginning with Pioneer (end proposed reduced page)