Talk:Pipe organ/Archive 1

So What Exactly Is a Stop?
Hi, I enjoyed the article, and think it's quite interesting and all, but there seems to be something missing. I have no idea what a stop is or how it works. The article seems to assume everyone already knows this. Did I miss something? GBMorris 17:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_stop Barnabypage 18:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The article mentioned above is linked to at the first mention of the word 'stop' in the article, and several times afterwards. However, if you feel it isn't so clear in one place, feel free to make a link to Organ stop at that point. Madder 18:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Refactor project
There seems to be quite a lot to do on the articles concerning pipe organs, and I have made a start. But one thing is the multiple and in some cases misleading articles asking for attention - cleanup, merge, attention - that currently "decorate" the articles.

I considered setting up a Wikiproject:Pipe organ, but I'm not prepared to give it any sort of longterm commitment so I've decided not to (anyone else can and welcome), and it didn't solve the problem of, for example, the inappropriate merge notices. So instead I've set up a special talk page at talk:pipe organ/refactor. This is intended to last only until the job is done; That is, until the articles are put into some reasonable shape. They will never be perfect (that's a basic Wikipedia article of faith!) but there will come a time at which the refactor project will be over as such. See talk:pipe organ/refactor for more details. Andrewa 17:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * WikiProject Pipe organ has now been proposed WikiProject Council/Proposals Mdcollins1984 23:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Large and Unclear Miscellaneous queries including quotes of a lot of text!
The Organ was invented by Cstebius, a Greek, in Egypt approximately around 500 B.C.E. in Alxeandria,Egypt. The Organ at that time did not have a religious use but was played for circuses and other entertainments and later in Rome in the Coliseum as Christians and others fought to their deaths. The use of the Organ in this aspect to play at Baseball games is very appropriate. The earliest form of the instrument took the form of a Hydralus. However, before the days of Cstebius, the Chinese and Incas had a form of the Organ called the Ching---which is held to the mouth and the various pipes played that way. There was also the Panpipes.

There are two fundamental types of Organ Pipes: (1)Flue and (2)Reed pipes

Flue pipes are basically different types of whistles. Reed pipes consist of a reed which vibrates much as a clarinet does when it is played.

Organ pipes are commonly made of Tin and Lead and alloy combinations thereof along with Zinc and other minor metals added to the alloy. However, Pipes have been made of just about every substance known to man that can maintain a pipe form including Gold and Silver and even Aluminum. Top quality pipes always have the highest content of Tin in them. Pipes are made from sheet metal which is first cast and poured onto a casting table and from here it is beaten with a hammer to a consistent thickness. The metal is then cut with scissors to the shape and size desired and wrapped around a wooden mandrel to obtain the correct diameter then soldered into a cylinder made by and cut according to lenght. The Mouth of the pipe is cut and the tongue or labial made. (There are three basic types of Mouths: English, French and German.) Each type of mouth tends to encourage particular tone qualities although a organ voicer can get the pipes to ignore this quality in speaking pr encourage it).

All signs of soldering are then done away with The feet are then made in a cone shape also using a mandrel and  a flat sheet of metal then covered the the foot section soldiered to the top of the cone leaving a slit for air to escape through and hit the lips. The cone is then soldiered to the pipe and all signs of soldering then done away with so that the pipe appears to have been fully casts as a whole pipe. The windway is then adjusted to concur with the lips. The adjustment of the lips are of greatest importance as if they are in the wrong place---no sound will be heard. The Pipe is now ready for preliminary voicing. This is done by adjusting the windway and if being done in romatic voicing style the pipe lips recieve some nicking to aide in their speech. When all is finished; pipes are placed on the chest in which they are to speak in the space that they are to speak and finally voicing and adjustments made so that all pipes have the same timbre and same volume and then they are finally tuned either with coning or by attaching tuning sleeves.

Reed pipes are intended to either speak as they are or imitate such instruments as regals, trumpets and other brass instuments etc. The sound timbres are as varied or more than in an the orchestra. There are bold brazen timberes as in a Pontifical or State Trumpet 8' and buzzing soft sounds as in a Still Regal 8' and many in between. The reeds, in reed pipes, are usually of metal unlike in the woodwind section of the Orchestra where they are made of thin pieces of wood or cane. The parts of a reed pipe are the block which holds the reed, the pipe, and the tuning slide and boot (which is like the foot in flue pipes)

An Organ chest consist of several parts in the form of a box:

(1)the upper table which has pipe racks (holders) below which is the table with holes drilled into the table in which the pipes sit to get their air. Below which are sliders and pallets which will be explained more fully below.

(2) the windway hole---which directs air to the pipes.

(3) The sliders (in tracker action)which act like doors which control which rank speaks. Thus if the slider is in closed position---it will not allow the pipes of its rank to speak  while the other sliders in open position will allow their pipes to    speak.

(4) the pallets which acts like a door allowing air into the windway of each note. The pallets controls which notes speak.

(5) The pallet chamber (air box) into which compressed air is collected from the bellows or fans.

When the pallets are opened mechanically (tracker action) or electrically air rushes down the windway to the sliders which are opened.

Chests may contain a whole division or be divided within the division as well as separate divisions. Dom Bedos de Celles and also the great 19th Century Organbuilder Cavaille-Coll advocated divided chests that one could walk around in as did the great Baroque era builders. A great chest might be divided into three parts with each the right and left chest containing 20 pipes and the center chest containing 21 pipes with a narrow walkway in between the chests. This makes tuning of the pipes very easy and also avoids the accidental damage to pipes in general.

Theoretically speaking; a chest could have any number of ranks on it. In reality, the more ranks on a chest the more problems one can expect in having pipes speak properly since robbing of air can go on especially in the days before electric fans. Obviously, one rank of pipes need less air than 20 pipes to speak. If not enough air is not available the largest and smallest pipes will rob the other pipes of their air and even in large chests with pleny of air this will sometimes happen becoming a big headache to the Organ technician to bring under control.

Dom Bedos de Celles and Cliquot advocated no more than 20 ranks on a chest as a maximum and even then problems can develope with pipe speech. Organ chests can be of any size and are designed according to the largest pipes that will sit on them and the air these pipes will draw to speak fully.

Some timbres require more than one pipe per key. These are called compound ranks or stops. These are most often Celeste ranks and mixture ranks. A Celeste rank consists of a pipe that is in tune and one slightly out(microtonally) of tune so that when heard together we get a very pleasant sound of beating sounds. The Vox Celeste 8' is such a rank. The Unda Maris is tuned so that a natural vibrato comes into play. A Mixture is another such rank  Compound stop names designate the number of ranks in the stop by a  a Roman numeral: thus a stop called "Cornet V" on a 61 note manual (this is the usual number on U.S. organs) would have 5 × 61 = 305 pipes. The Cornet is of French Origin and it has a strong fifth rank in it whose purpose is to imitate brass sounds. American Organs may have this stop but in most cases they are not a true Cornet. The Cornet is often called for in French Baroque music. The Organ was originally one huge compound stop.

The Organ has the greatest range of any instrument even though it has only 61 notes (in modern instruments) per manual and 32 notes in the pedal. The range extends from 8HZ to well beyond 20,000 Hz.with pipes ranging from 64 feet tall (near 7 stories high!)and a diameter of around 18 inches down to less than the size of a pencil lead. There are few pipes in the world that are 64' feet long--- there is a Trombone 64' in the Sydney (Australia) Town Hall Organ, a 64' Diaphone in the Atlantic City Organ and Klais of Germany is alledged to have built a 64' stop location unknown. The range is determined by the pitch of the pipes for instance an 8 foot stop has a bass pipe coming from a pipe that is or theoretically is 8 foot long. Thus a mid c pipe can sound mid c as on the piano but it also can sound an octave or more higher or lower depending on couplers drawn and the pitch of the pipes draw.

The exception to the pitch rule is in stopped pipes (such as the Stopped Diapason, Gedackt, Quintadena, Rhorflute etc) and Haskell basses which double the air column in a pipe thus making it have a lower frequency that it normally would have. By the same token Harmonic stops have longer pipes than for the pitch expected. The Flûte harmonique 8' may have a bass pipe that is 12 feet long but has an air column that sounds 8 foot pitch. For this to happen the pipe has a hole in it so that it will cause the pipe to develop harmonic notes in it's structure that it normally would not have.

In the time of Bach; some Organs may have had only 48 notes per manual and a shorten pedal scope as well. The Atlantic City Hall Organ, one of the largest Organs ever built in the world, has upwards of 70 notes per manual. The pedal consists of 32 notes in modern Organs. The pedal is a German Invention from abut 1400. While most European Organs had pedals --the English Organ only began to have them around 1800. A manual is nothing more than a keyboard. Organs may have as many as 7 keyboards but typically seldom have more than 5 or 6.

Manuals designate divisions of the Organ: their names in American and English Organs are Great, Swell, Choir and Possibly Positiv (after 1950) Solo, Bombard and Echo. In German Organs these are call the Hauptwerke (Great), Ruckpositiv, Brustwerke and Oberwerke, Kronpositiv. In France they are Grande Choer, Récit Expressif, Bombardes, Grand Orgue, Positif.

As far as the pedals are concerned they are for the feet to play accompanying harmonies or in many cases a melody. The Pedal stop section of an Organ is usually rich in bass sounding ranks. A rank consists of (usually in the pedal 32 pipes and in the manuals 61 pipes). Normally there is just one pedal for playing by the feet. However, there are Organs such as the one in Seville Cathedral which have double pedals being the equivalents of double manuals.

Aside from pedals to play melodies with; the organ contains expression pedals (such as Swell, Crescendo) whose purpose is to give the illusion of making the Instrument sound louder or softer. This is achieved by place stop ranks in a box which has "blinds" which can be opened or closed from the Console by movement of these pedals from open position (loud) to soft position (soft). The effect is like playing a stero system loudly but hearing it outside a closed door for softness or opened for loudness. The Organ has no other way of controling how loud it is or how soft it is other than this method and by adding to stops to stops to produce a loudness. In old days; these expression pedals were sometimes referred to as "shoes" because the pedal had this shape particularly in Organs of 19th century American Instruments such as those made by Hinners. This is no longer a valid term and was never universally accepted. The Germans had a roller device for a swell pedal which they called 'rollerschweller"

Aside from stops; the Organ has many accessories to help the Organist control the instrument: they include octave and sub octave couplers, Unison off coupler, tremulants,intermanual and pedal couplers which connect the manuals to other mauals and pedals. There are fixed combination and free combination thumb and toe pistons; in some organs there is a wind pressure gage.

A flute pipe is a type of flue pipe; Diapasons and strings are flue pipes but are not flutes. There is some variation in terminology; Many builders call a stopped diapason a type of flute, but no one uses the term flute to refer to an open diapason or string stop,even though these stops are types of flutes which have specific sounds that remind one of the string section of an Orchestra or the stereotype of a church organ sound (the Diapason in parts sounds like a Bass Flute). In the past Organs were given fanciful names that at times were just plain silly and looking at a stoplist did not tell one what type of timbre to expect from these stops. For example there is a flute stop on an organ in Idaho called Flute de Julie 8'. We do not know who Julie was or how she sounded but this is ridiculous nomenclature along with such names as Vox angelique (angel's voice). Fortunately Organbuilders are now trying to get away from such silly confusing nomenclature. However, reading a stoplist still tells little about how an Organ may sound. Attempts to translate foreign names into English also make for confusion for instance a Diapason, a Montre and a Principal are not all the same stop---they may closely sound alike but each has a distinquishing harmonic structure in their sound that makes them different from the other. The Principal, for example, has a more hardened sound than the English or American Diapason whose best examples were done by George H. Harrison of Aeolian-Skinner Organs(now defunct)of the 20th Century. The Principal best example is by Schnitger who built some of the Organs that JS Bach Played. The Montre's best examples are by Cavaille-Coll, Cliquot, and Dom Bedoes de Celles.

The Organ has a great body of literature as a solo instrument and in combination with voices and other instruments and Orchestra. Some of the most famous Organ with Orchestra works are Richard Strauss's Thus Spake Zarathusthra, Poulenc's Concerto for Organ and Tympani,Saint-Saen's Symphony #3,Aaron Copland's Symphony#1, Gustav Mahler Symphonies,and Resphigi's Pines of Rome and The Fountains of Rome. All of these works make use of the Organs superior range of frequencies especially the 32 foot range down to 15hz which we hear in the opening music of Thus Spake Z. of Strauss.

As to the existence of the Organ in Solomon's temple we have no documentation of this but that was a possiblity especially during Roman times especially when Rome passed Laws that were eventually responsible for the Massada uprising that is all Jews had to pray to Zeus and the Emperor as God and idols were installed in the Temple thus descrating it.

In the book of Psalms 150:4 says "Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs." This is probally a corrupt passage as David, the Psalmist, live some 500(1000-961 B.C.E.)years before the invention of the Organ. Another corrupt passage in the Talmud is Genesis 4:21 "And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ". This event ocurred some 6 thousand years before the invention of the Organ.

Job 21:12 They take the timbrel and harp, and rejoice at the sound of the organ"(also corrupt because of date discrepancies). A more ridiculous translation of this passage has it reading Saxophones which did not exist in biblical times. There is no other mentioning of the Organ in the Talmuldic books of the Bible. Another note is that in earlier biblical texts---string instruments are banned so it would not be kosher to play or have string insturments around. Jews do use the Organ in their services but many other religions do not or only barely such as Buddhists.

The Organ came into Christian Church use between 800-1000 AD when the Sultan of Turkey sent an Organ to Charlemagne. In Europe at that time; the Organ was an unknown instrument. Charlemagne and his Court were delighted with this gift and played it so much that it began to need repairs. No one in Europe of the time could do repairs and Charlemagne sent a request to the Sultan to please send an Organbuilder to repair the instrument which was done and other Organs were built. There after a law was enacted in which all Churches of France, Germany, and what is now Belgium and the Netherlands must have an Organ in them and so it was and all of the Holy Roman Empire.

Organ composers
"The Baroque composer Johann Sebastian Bach wrote extensively for the pipe organ and other keyboard instruments."

Wouldn't it be better to have something like this? "Many notable composers, including Johann Sebastian Bach and César Franck, have written considerable amounts of music for the pipe organ."


 * I added a bit to the opening. Good suggestion. Antandrus 04:50, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps with a new page listing composers of organ music?


 * Another excellent idea. We could use an article on the organ literature, perhaps with a list of composers included (or separate).  I don't think we have one yet (anyway I've been writing lots of articles on the individual composers, Scheidemann, Sweelinck, Scheidt, Schlick, all those German guys). Antandrus 04:53, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Multiple Pitch Bass Pipes
(Some pipes, especially in the bass, to save space or material, are rigged to provide multiple pitches like big recorders.)

This should probably be removed as it gives a false impression. The idea of multi-pitch organ pipes was popular wwith a few builders from the turn of the 20th century up into the 1930s, especially in UK (the Compton Cube, for example), but I know of no builder today who uses such devices.

AJO 04:32, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)


 * I added a line clarifying this--as far as I know you are right. Antandrus 04:53, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of this before, but Klais has made 64'-stops with only one pipe for the whole register (a CCCC).contrapuncti 07:22, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

"Notable organ builders"
Greetings, I am new to Wikipedia. I've taken the liberty of adding C. B. Fisk, Inc. to the "Notable organ builders" list at the bottom of the article. Please let me know if this addition is in accordance with site standards. The company bears the name of it's founder, Charles Brenton Fisk who was insturmental in bringing traditional construction methods, particularly tracker action, to modern American organ building at a time when electro-pneumatic actions had become the "modern" standard.

Quibble

btw- the 18th contury builders' "bible" by Dom Bedos might be an excellent source for related article illustrations. I believe they are in the public domain though that would bear some further research.
 * Welcome to Wikipedia, Quibble! Adding Fisk to the list seems reasonable, as they are one of the leading modern US builders. We should have a separate page listing various organ builders, though, and then argue which of them are notable enough for the main article ;-) I don't see any reason why Dom Bedos shouldn't be public domain, but I'm no expert at copyright issues.
 * Again, welcome, and looking forward to see more contributions from you! contrapuncti 19:08, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the warm welcome, Quibble

Pipe organ vs Organ (music)
There is a huge unnecessary overlap between the two now. I put a "merge" notice on both, lacking a better one. Of course, these should be two separate articles, but the content must be carefully divided between the two, otherwise the divergence/duplication will progress. Mikkalai 18:46, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * By all means eliminate unnecessary duplication. But IMO


 * These merge notices are inaccurate, ugly and inappropriate. Why do we need a notice at all? Just comment on the talk pages.


 * It's important to bear in mind that not all duplication is a bad thing.


 * You might also like to look at stop (pipe organ), but please bear these two observations in mind. Andrewa 01:21, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Perhaps I should clarify the above. The merge notices give the impression that we are shortly going to have fewer articles on pipe organs. Quite the opposite, I'd like us to have more articles, including perhaps and for example rohrflote, flue pipe, mutation stop, Sydney Town Hall Pipe Organ, choir organ and many others. I don't think anyone seriously thinks these two articles can be merged as suggested by the notice, the result will be far too big and cumbersome. So, why say they will be? Andrewa 03:49, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * EEK!! But I see what you mean... there's a mess out there, and I have now contributed to it... somehow I missed the existing article at organ stop, which will now need to be merged with the article I've started at stop (pipe organ) or vice versa.


 * One of the problems is that the musical instrument categories are in a bit of a mess too. I've made a start at sorting these out, adding articles to the existing category:pipe organ and removing pipe organ articles and categories from category:woodwind instruments (where they don't belong!) and from the non-existent category organ.


 * Another problem is that much of the information is quite frankly inaccurate. Opinions and practices of particular organ builders or organ styles are presented as generally true of all organs, a common mistake. Plenty to do! Andrewa 20:39, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Description of organ divisions is English-centric
I realise this article needs to avoid being too long, but the description of the different divisions of the organ is only common in the English-speaking world (UK/US etc). I particularly blanch at this bald statement "Organ departments can include Choir, Great, Swell, Solo, Fanfare, Echo and Pedal."

J.S. Bach never played upon a  Swell manual in his life. In a German organ, the common names for divisions include Hauptwerk (equivalent to Great), Brüstwerk, Oberwerk, Schwellwerk (in a swell box). A French organ might have Grand Orgue, Positif, Récit, Bombarde. There are numerous variations in other countries as well, but these three (English, French and German) are the major traditions of organ-building. Of course, by the late 20th century these lines have become seriously blurred (for example, the town hall organ in Christchurch NZ has Hauptwerk and Schwellwerk manuals - not surprising since the company that built it is Austrian - but it is well-suited to music from the French romantic era, eg Franck)

I've amended this statement to include the common German and French names. It would be nice to describe what some of these names mean (eg Rückpositiv is called that because it is sited at the organist's back, the Brüstwerk is directly in front of them, the Oberwerk is on top of (over) the Hauptwerk - all this traditionally anyway), but this is probably left to specialist or more extensive sites unless someone is willing to write a lot.


 * Goog point, user:210.55.230.21, and a good start on correcting it. Ideally, we should have details of various styles of organ, both current and historic... although in organ building, there's a delightful sense in which all historic designs are current, you never know when someone will build a new one! Andrewa 16:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dolci painting caption
The caption to Dolci's Saint Cecilia painting claims that she is playing a portative organ, but this appears to be incorrect. It looks far too big, and she plays it with both hands, indicating that the bellows are not hand-operated. This contradicts my idea of a portative organ, but I might be wrong. EldKatt 16:20, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pipe Organ Wiki
There is a new (late June 2005) Wiki devoted to the pipe organ at. It is intended to (eventually) go into considerably more technical detail than is probably appropriate for the Wikipedia. Contributors welcome! --EdStauff 6 July 2005 15:33 (UTC)

This article needs serious work
It's way under standard.


 * Does anyone object if I post a clean-up notice at the top?


 * The lead needs to be longer, to give the reader a sense of the rich and long history, and the cultural and specifically musical significance of the organ.

Tony 02:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there a Wikiproject?
I'd be interested. I have created one or two articles in the pipe organ category (e.g. Peter Hurford, Gillian Weir (in dire need of expansion), Peter Collins (organ builder), Mander Organs, International Organ Festival, Henry Willis & Sons, Harrison & Harrison). I've looked for existing content on these and not found it, but there may well be duplication. It would be good to colelct together the things needing doing. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 17:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Photos
I added a couple photos of the organ at St. Raphael's Cathedral, Dubuque, Iowa that I had taken last year. The organ at the church is fairly modern, having been installed in the early 1990's. I think it was a smart move of them to use an open design because you can actually see the various parts of the organ instead of them being hidden behind a case. JesseG 04:40, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been working on the "theatre organ" entry. Does anyone have a photo of a theatre organ console I can use for that article? Erzahler 18:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

rv of 63.245.119.144
''the pipe organ also enhances the mass in the catholic church with its rich gothic sound and deep pedal actions. the sound that the pipe gives off in the mass can make spiritually bankrupt catholic get a feeling like no other instrument can give. to play this instrument most people consider organist to be crazy due to the fact that the leg is playing the pedals the same time the fingers are playing the keyboard.'' -User:63.245.119.144

Quite right to remove this for its presentation, but I think most of the sentiments in it should be incorporated here... :) I refer to the organ's role in churches (not just its presence), its majesty, and the perceived difficulty of playing it.-Sesquialtera II 03:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Case versus Facade?
Does anybody else think that the Case/Chamber subsection seems more like a Facade subsection. (also, is the preferred spelling façade?) Should we maybe call the section Case and Facade or have two separate subsections? What's the concensus? Also the blower is mentioned as a main component of the organ, but I didn't see it mentioned elsewhere in the Construction section. Maybe a Winding System subsection would be in order? --W0lfie 05:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Also some of the links are old. I'll update them when I can. --W0lfie 05:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree on the addition of a "blower" section. Without wind, a pipe organ is nothing. It would be good to note that two basic systems are still in use: the electric blower and the manual bellows. So yes, I think this would be a good addition, but it probably would not stand as its own article. Erzahler 19:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. I have a photo I took of a blower, but it's not very high quality.  There should be some PD photos from L'art du Facteur d'Orgues of manual bellows.  I might be able to even get some good pictures of reservoirs etc.  But it may take some time. --W0lfie 19:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have addressed some of these concerns... I renamed the Case/Chamber section Enclosures, and would appreciate it if someone would fill it in. It really deserves a separate article; see the chapter in the Cambridge Companion to the Organ on the organ case. The section in this article could use more information on chambers and their use versus a freestanding case (and maybe a little bit on the "caseless" designs of the Neo-baroque era). And regarding the fac/çade question, I vote for "façade," since the word is derived from the French (to my knowledge). —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 05:46, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Church organ merge
It looks as though this page came from one of the Dutch Wikipedians to better mirror the Dutch Wikipedia. Seeing as we have a separate article for theatre organ, I see no reason to merge church organ. Instead, I'd like to see if we could flesh it out a little bit, emphasizing the things that make it different from other organs. Also, how do we add one of those links that says "Main article:"? We should do that with Theatre Organ and Church Organ. Does anybody want to take a crack at a concert organ article, while we're at it? --W0lfie 19:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

On the church organ issue, we should go carefully here, as not all church organs are pipe organs. If a church organ merge is determined to be needed, then only those elements of the article that pertain to pipe organs should be merged. Otherwise, the church organ, IMO, should be separated, with a distinction between pipe organs and electronic organs. Erzahler 20:34, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed the merge Pipe organ/Church organ tags as there is no consensus to merge. --Ezeu 21:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Why not have Church organ redirect to organ (music)? I know of no "church organ" that is not a musical organ. Dsinden 05:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Construction revision
I have completed a complete revision of the Construction section of this article; I will tackle other sections next. I would appreciate it if someone with more thorough knowledge of stop mechanisms and key actions would clean up the Stop mechanisms section and add a section on key actions. I have linked to articles on actions and wind systems which have yet to be written. These articles are necessary, as it would be impossible to delve into such areas as the Kastenbalg and the Pitman chest within this article, for example. Let's all work together to make this article one worthy of the King of Instruments. —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 05:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Great work, Cor! I will take a look at it this weekend and see if I can add anything. I'm thinking I should be able to crank out decent stubs for those redlinks.  :-)  --W0lfie 15:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now I have revamped the History section as well… the individual historical periods could use some more information, but I think we don't want to get much more involved… the page size is already over 40kB. —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 04:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Source needed?
I was appreciating the recent changes by User:Melos Antropon when I noticed the bit about Twelfth vs. Nazard. Is that a commonly accepted fact? Does a source need to be cited? I was under the impression that Nazard is always a flute stop, but Twelfth or Quint(e) is used if it is a Diapason rank. Does anybody have a source agreeing with Melos? Here are my sources: and. The encyclopedia uses words like "more properly" and "usually," so perhaps my conviction is unfounded. --W0lfie 15:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be good to have a source for that, as I don't believe I've run across a principal-scaled Nasard. I wouldn't put it past some well-meaning organ builder to name it improperly, though. I would trust what http://www.organstops.org says; i.e. most likely Nasard is meant to refer exclusively to flute pipes and Twelfth and Quint(e) to thinner-scale pipes. —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 17:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Borrowing, extension, unification, duplexing
The four terms borrowing, extension, unification, and duplexing have always given me trouble. I think I have the first three down correctly in the article, but I am not entirely certain. Duplexing is not currently mentioned in the article. Does anyone have a really solid understanding of these four topics and the differences between them? —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 17:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know that it qualifies as "a really solid understanding", but here's my take on it:
 * I think borrowing is usually used when the rank comes from another division, it can be done at unison pitch or some other pitch. However, according to, the key thing is that it is controlled by another stop knob/tablet.
 * Extension normally refers to adding pipes to a rank to make the same rank available at another pitch on the same manual. It can be controlled by a separate stop, or a rank can be extended so that it doesn't drop out when octave couplers are used. Normally, a borrowed extension is given the same name, with the common exception of 16' Bassoon/Basson/Fagott being extended to an 8' Oboe/Hautbois/Hautboy. The organ I learned on used Fagot for both the 16' and 8' stops.
 * I've always thought of unification as a general term for extensions and borrows.
 * According to and [1] above, duplexing is the same as borrowing.
 * (I'm no expert) --W0lfie 18:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable enough to me… I'll try to incorporate that soon, unless someone else beats me to it. —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 05:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Removing sections
I would opine that some sections of this page, namely the "Some notable pipe organs" and "Historical styles" sections, should be deleted. Styles of organ is covered in the History section and Notable organs is currently a disaster area… what's more, there are simply too many notable organs to include. I vote to get rid of both of those sections, maybe link to a page with a list of notable organs and links to information on them? —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 04:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding "Historical styles" section: Agree that we should remove it. With the improvements to the rest of the article (especially the "History" section), the "Historical styles" seems a bit redundant.  Perhaps we can work some of the material into the intro to the "History" section.
 * Regarding "Some notable pipe organs" section: I agree with your sentiment that it's impossible to include all notible organs. Maybe if an organ is "notable" it should get it's own page like the Wanamaker Grand Organ, and we could add a category for notable pipe organs.  Just like what is done with notable organ builders.  On the other hand, I think the notable organ section shows the interesting variety of pipe organs.
 * One thing I'm surprised you didn't mention was the rather long list of pipe organ links at the bottom of the page. It's rather long, and there are already several sites with more comprehensive lists. --W0lfie 19:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have removed the "Historical styles" section of the article, as most of its information is in the "History" section. That section could still stand something of a facelift… it may eventually need to be its own page or category eventually.—Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 21:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Photos
I just moved the picture of the Bristol Cathedral organ from the bottom of the page to the top. I think that picture is a better representation of a "typical" organ (if one could say such a thing about the organ) than the Casavant picture. I'd like to get a really great picture of an ornate German Baroque organ to put at the top; I think that would look really spiffy. We could intersperse the other photos throughout the page, on both the left and the right sides. The organ from Taiwan looks really intriguing and is very unique, but does its picture belong on a general article about the organ? The majority of organs look nothing like it. Opinions, anyone? —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 05:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the Taiwan picture because it is not common. Should it be pointed out in the caption that it is unusual? or is that too POV? Maybe it could go down in the "Enclosure" article as an example of facades. (that would also help address your layout suggestion.) You asked for a German Baroque organ photo. I have just such a photo that my father-in-law took. I will email him for permission to use it.  The Commons has a few photos that might do, too.  (how do you link to the Commons?)  --W0lfie 19:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

What to do about all this?
Please see my entry under the same name at the Talk:organ (music) page regarding how to clean up the situation with all these organ-related articles floating around. —Cor anglais 16 (Talk) 13:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Main articles on Wind/Action etc
The Pipe organ article refers more than once to 'see main article at...'. These articles do not exist. Have they ever? If not, then the links should be removed until such articles are created. Mdcollins1984 09:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Pipeless organ subsection
Sorry if there's already been a discussion on the "Pipeless Organs" subsection, but I didn't see one. It seems to me that this subsection shouldn't be included in an article about pipe organs. If need be, we can move the info to the Electronic organ article. It would be appropriate to mention pipeless organs, but only in the context of pipe organs. Maybe something about how their invention assisted the adoption of pipeless/digital ranks into some pipe organs. The Rodgers blended organ at Second Baptist, Houston, TX comes to mind, but there are others. What do you guys think? --W0lfie 22:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Apart from the technical detail about amplification - a couple of sentences - I think the section is mostly germane to a pipe-organs article, as it's talking about pipeless instruments in the context of pipe organs (threat to/comparative quality of/merging of technologies in some instruments, etc.). Barnabypage 12:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree there should be "some" mention of "pipeless" organs (electronic, reed, etc.) here. However, the section should be brief, as the main emphasis of the article IS pipe organs.  Any further amplification should be referred to their respective articles. Erzahler 16:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

GA review
Metal flues are usually made of varying mixtures of lead and tin, depending on the requirements sought for that particular pipe: a predominance of lead tends to darken the tone, a predominance of tin tends to brighten it); the best weight to strength ratio is about 60% tin-40% lead); high amounts of tin can give a gleaming, long-lasting polish; tin is more expensive than lead so cost may be a factor; pure lead or tin are both too soft to be used.

This paragraph is somewhat awkward, throwing facts at you in random order and poor structure.

''The usual exception to tin-lead alloys is in the very lowest pipes in a rank, which are sometimes made of rolled zinc. However pipes have been made of many metals, including gold, silver, aluminum, brass, copper, and iron, as well as glass, porcelain, and plastic. Wood flues usually have the foot, cap, block and mouthpiece made of hardwood, whereas the walls of the pipe may be made of hardwood or of coniferous woods. ''

I'm afraid I got to "Pitch and lengths of pipes", copyediting as I went - because there were rather a lot of rather awkward phrasings, if less than the one marked - and then saw I still had half the article left, and stopped. I think that the copyeditin g needs finished before this article can reach GA. I'll try to help, but I'm probably disqualifying myself as a GA reviewer. Adam Cuerden talk 10:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Still working on it. Have also copyedited the above, simplifying lots of the science. I'll keep going! Mdcollins1984 15:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

If this article isn't reviewed by Wednesday, I'll happily do so then. -- Ci e lomobile talk / contribs 01:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

GA on hold
This article will be put on hold (for 7 days) until these minor adjustments can be made :


 * 1. Well written? Fail
 * 2. Factually accurate? Fail
 * 3. Broad in coverage? Pass
 * 4. Neutral point of view? OK
 * 5. Article stability? Pass
 * 6. Images? Pass

Additional comments : * The organ, along with the harp, the drum, and the recorder, is one of the oldest instruments still in use. needs sourcing, for there are other instruments in the non-western world that were probably older and are still in use. * Its repertoire is also the largest of any musical instrument. too needs a reference as it is not common knowledge to know such a fact. * though there is no evidence that the European organ came by way of Spain. is brought into the article without explanation of the reasons for thinking such. * When organ builders began building historically-inspired instruments, they returned to mechanical key action to regain the subtle, nuanced control it gives the performer. should be cited for readers who know very little about organs. * This Due to the benefits of modern technology, modern mechanical actions are often much lighter and require less effort to play than do some historical mechanical actions. needs to be cited for it could be interpreted as pov, or preference. * These digital organs are by far the most realistic imitation of the true pipe organ sound, though still merely an imitation. needs real accounts that state such facts thus inline citing. * I think ''Despite the lower cost of electric and digital pipeless organs (as compared with the cost of a pipe organ), interest in pipe organs and mechanical actions for pipe organs has continued. Historic organs are still being rebuilt and refurbished, and new instruments with both mechanical and electric actions are being built.'' is trivial information and doesn't significantly add to the article.
 * lead section doesn't comply with the requirements. - rewritten.
 * Make sure taht the inline citations come after punctuation.
 * though these styles are much less common than knobs and tabs., says who, a citation would clear that up.
 * The article needs more wikilinks.
 * Many other instances of near-pov, near-OR material should be inline cited in order to comply with the GA status.

This article is a well-written article though it lacks, lead-wise and citation-wise and will remain on hold until such have been addressed. Good luck, Lincher 01:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have addressed many of the above. Maybe somebody else should have a go at editing it, incase things are escaping my eye. Mdcollins1984 10:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Lincher, you say "Well written? Fail", yet later on you say "This article is a well-written article". Which one do you believe? Personally I believe this a well-written article, I hope you do too. Cheers, Madder 20:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That criterion covers more than just the quality of the prose. An article could be well-written in one context but not follow all the conventions of Wikipedia writing. -- Ci e lomobile talk / contribs 04:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

GA passed
The article was partly rewritten taking into consideration the aforementioned comments, it now passes all of GA's requirements.

As for the above comment about the failing the well-written criterion, it was pertaining to the lead section part (criterion 1b). Lincher 18:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Changes by 66.169.22.233
The user 66.169.22.233 made a lot of changes to this article today. They look OK to me, but given that it wasn't a registered user making so many changes to the article, I think it would be wise if someone who knows a bit more about organs than me had another look through the changes made just to check that they are OK, because some of them look quite drastic and significant. Cheers, Madder 14:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. There seems to be quite a lot of good material removed and some rather poor English introduced (along with some interesting points). I don't have time to go through it today but I'll try to lock the article and fix it during the first half of the week if no-one else has! Barnabypage 16:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've started going through it now - a lot of the added text is POV anyway, and very unreferenced. I am going through them edit by edit so as not to need complete rv which may be unfair and against good faith. Mdcollins1984 17:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Completed my check/re-edit/reversion of the article. Some of the added material was perfectly valid if a little poorly written, some of which I have therefore re-worded. I have removed some material particularly from the Organ music passage that was in completely the wrong place or irrelavent.  Also I have reverted the POV rant on Fake organs, prefering the small paragraph detailing that pipeless organs do exist, but are detailed elsewhere.  I have tried to assume Good Faith and have therefore tried to incorporate some of the information I felt could belong here.

I couldn't see how much has been removed, perhaps Barnabypage might notice some of that...

Hope this sorts some of the issues out. Mdcollins1984 00:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Great work Mdcollins1984 - I'll have a look through your revisions, as I'm sure many others will, but thanks for getting into it in so much detail so quickly. Barnabypage 01:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks really good, thanks :-) Madder 21:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed Charlemagne story - fictional
I removed this from one of User:66.169.22.233 long edits as it was unreferenced, and in the wrong place in the article. A quick google search produced this article arguing that the story was fictional anyway. *


 * The Western Religious use in earnest of the Organ for religious purposes began around 900 AD when the Sultan of Turkey sent an Organ as a diplomatic gift to Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne. Charlemagne's Court was thrilled with this pipe organ. However, it eventually broke down and there was no one to repair it. Charlemagne sent a letter to the Sultan requesting that he send an Organ builder to repair the instrument. One was sent who stayed on at the Court. Charlemagne then proclaimed by Law that all Christian Churches in his kingdom should have pipe organs and thus the tradition and religious association of the Organ with Churches---in modern times to the detriment of the instrument.

Mdcollins1984 23:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

64' stop reversions and Auditorium Organ
For some reason two members of the Auditorium Organ authors keep deleting a reference to the other 64' stop in Sydney town hall, which has been restored more than once. There has been no explanation for this, hence the reverts.

Also the Auditorium Organ is a relatively new article, which is fine, it is quite good although unreferenced, but I don't think that it should be under that title. Does anyone else feel that it seems like a type of organ (like Theatre organ, Church organ) rather than a specific one. I have proposed on that talk page that it is moved to Boardwalk Hall Organ or even Atlantic City organ, as, for as far as I can tell, the only reason that it is called Auditorium organ is that it is in the Main Auditorium of the centre. It seems daft!

Any views?

Mdcollins1984 14:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * All issues now addressed and resolved. Mdcollins1984 09:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

A more proper term for electronic/electric instruments and consideration of hybrid instruments
The article speaks of electric (Early Hammond Instruments) and electronic instruments (Rodgers, et al) as "fakes." I believe this term is somewhat prejudicial. It is certainly correct that these instruments are not pipe organs. However, they never claimed to be so the term "fake" seems to suggest that some sort of false promise was presented to the buyer/listener. Webster defines "fake" as "Having a false or misleading purpose...a thing that is not genuine or authentic; a sham; a counterfeit."

To me the use of that term suggests that the makers of these instruments are somehow trying to provide second-rate goods as if they were the real thing, just as a "fake" Rolex attempts to fool the buyer into beleiving it is the "real thing."

I believe a better term, at least for the majority of electronic instruments, might be "imitative." In most cases, they do attempt to imitate the sounds of organ pipes. There might also be considered a classification along the lines of "Home Entertainment Instruments" which are more likely to imitate band instruments rather than pipes.

On a second issue, the article does not discuss (perhaps intentionally) the creation of hybrid instruments which include both air-blown pipes and electronically created sounds, most often to supplement the pipes by providing pitches requiring larger pipes that might not fit in the space available or alternatively to lower the cost of an instrument. While these are not truly "common" they are not uncommon either and do represent a continuation of the evolution of the original instruments. If someone is interested, I would be happy to provide some appropriate verbiage as a starting point for further discussion and debate.

If anyone should be interested, my background includes both pipe and electronic design and several years working with Virgil Fox during the height of his fame.

Wood Artist 03:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that comment. I agree that they should not be referred as 'fakes' - all the references were added by a 'vandal' a couple of weeks back and I thought I removed them all. I think that they are all contained in the Popular Music section, so I have removed it to this page awaiting some cleanup.  I actually thought that electronic stops were mentioned somewhere under the 20th century section but I haven't checked. Feel free to add something in somewhere.

Mdcollins1984 21:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reverted this paragraph to Nov 4th, to remove references to 'fakes'. If anyone want so expanded further it can now be done. Also 'hybrid instruments' are mentioned in Pipe organ in the history and development section. Mdcollins1984 15:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I spent a few minutes in the Popular Music section making some minor changes. Virgil Fox's concerts were called Heavy Organ...not Heavy Metal Organ...and they were always accompanied by a light show when so designated. I also added a paragraph regarding the ATOS which seemed reasonable to put there as opposed to somewhere else. I will continue to think about the hybrid idea and come up with some language soon. Thanks for making the other changes I suggested. Wood Artist 04:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

First sentence
The pipe organ is a musical (keyboard) instrument that produces sound by admitting air under pressure through a fipple mechanism of a whistle and/or through one or more reeds incorporated into pipes.

"through a fipple mechanism of a whistle"? "reeds incorporated into pipes"?

Would it better to simply say "by admitting [pressurized] air through pipes" with a link to organ pipes, and later explaining the difference between flues and reeds and how the sound itself is produced?

-- Matthew (SuperOctave) - 22 November, 2006


 * I agree. I have thought for a while that the opening part of the article is a bit too complicated. The fipple can then be mentioned under 'construction'. Mdcollins1984 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Minor Suggestions
More to come as I have time...

I suggest that the following is changed:

The pumps and water regulator of the hydraulic powered instrument was being replaced by bellows in the 2nd Century AD.[8]

to

The pumps and water regulators of the hydraulis were replaced by bellows in the 2nd Century AD. [8]

---

This is one of the greatest developments to playing aids available to an organist, because it allows him to set piston combinations or a sequencer for each individual piece or occasion, purely by the computer 'memorising' combinations drawn at the console.

to

This is one of the greatest modern developments to the organ, as it allows the organist to set piston combinations or a sequencer for each individual piece or occasion, simply by the computer storing combinations drawn at the console.

---

Midi recording systems can also be installed that can replay what an organist has played, or allow files of these recordings to be downloaded onto a computer to be converted into sheet music.

to

Another development to the organ is a/the Midi (link to MIDI) recording system, which can record and replay what an organist has played, and even download files of these recordings onto a computer [to be converted into sheet music].

---

Although they cannot yet completely recreate the full sound of a pipe organ, and they are not being marketed as pipe organ replacements, they serve a major purpose of being viable options to many churches due to the lower costs involved, the lack of maintenance required and the considerable space necessary for a substantial pipe organ.

to

Although the full sound of a pipe organ cannot yet be completely recreated, they are a viable option to many churches and other organizations, due to the lower costs involved, the lack of maintenance required, and the considerable space necessary for a substantial pipe organ.

-

Developments in the computer industry began to be incorporated into pipe organs using the techniques developed for pipeless organs (see below), incorporating them as "digital" components into real pipe organs. This had many advantages including a large reduction in the amount of wires and cabling involved in an electronic action and the allowance of better combination capture systems.

Although the reduction of wires and cabling in an electronic action IS indeed an advantage to modern action systems, is that specific advantage worth mentioning? Would it be better to say that modern actions are much more simple in concept than older systems, and not mention the specifics, such as the amount of wires required?

In the mid-20th century, churches and other institutions began increasingly substituting electronic organs without pipes (such as the Hammond organ) for pipe organs due to the electronic substitutes' cheaper initial cost.

Is the Hammond organ a good example for this? I believe a better example would be an Allen or Rodgers, as Hammonds are not really pipe organ substitutes.

Most organ builders and pipe organ players agree, however, that digital 32' ranks are less acceptable than digital upper work.

"Upper work" is a term common in the "organ world," but would it be understandable by someone who does not play the organ?

---

- Matthew (SuperOctave) 24 November 2006


 * Thanks for running this via the talk page. I see no problem with it. Feel free to go ahead. Mdcollins1984 11:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)