Talk:Pirate Party (Sweden)/Archive 1

Misleading formulation about "private property"
"The agenda also includes support for a strengthening of the right to privacy (such as private property and private information), both on the Internet and in everyday life."

The Swedish Pirate Party has no views about private property (unless you count copyrights and patents as "immaterial property", and one major point that often comes up in debates about these issues is that that analogy is rather misleading--I think many Pirate Party sympathisers would rather talk about copyright and patents as "state-sponsored monopolies on information and knowledge" or something like that). /Martin Nilsson

The Pirate Party of the US
Shouldn't there be an article about the US party too? http://pirate-party.us/ Maybe at The Pirate Party of the United States of America ?

Why is it listed for deletion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.96.32.28 (talk • contribs)
 * Follow the link to the page about it and you'll find out. -- Elisson • Talk 15:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The nomination was withdrawn due to a supermajority keep vote.DanielDemaret 09:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Correction. The nomination was withdrawn after one vote and one comment. The voting however proceeded because it was renominated. --Ezeu 18:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There are numerous Pirate Parties around the world. I see no reason why US should especially be mentioned. Since they're all called the Pirate Party (except in another language), I think the Pirate Party article should be a general page about the parties and parties in different countries should have their own articles. Joonas Mäkinen (talk) 19:20, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Privacy
What about the immaterial right to privacy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.250.143.131 (talk • contribs)
 * Eh? That's not a judicial right (or does any country's law state that privacy is a human right?). And what is your question about, really? -- Elisson • Talk 11:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * A person's private information is simply digital data, and can be copied like every other form of digital information. So it doesn't make much sense to say that you can protect privacy but remove copyright. FRANSTER 23:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Private information is not copyrighted and many things doesn't make much sense. So it's no diffrence here. Thing doesnt have to make sense.


 * I find no contradiction in having different laws for different kind of inforamtion. Why would there be? All information although shares characteristics and features in that sense that it can be copied. Is still different kind of information. Or do you belive a song and a mathematical formula or your medical records shares the same classification of information? Clearly the human population do not as we have words describing different kind of information. 81.227.12.109 13:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Article name
As the party hasn't announced any official English name just yet, let's keep the article here at Pirate Party until they have done so. Do not move this to the Swedish name. Follow the standards and keep the article name in English as the rest of the parties of Sweden. When the party has announced an official English name, feel free to move the article there. -- Elisson • Talk 20:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The official name now has been announced, The Pirate Party, and as the standard seems to be to not include "The" in the article name of political parties, I guess the article should stay at this current title, Pirate Party. -- Elisson • Talk 16:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Factually incorrect concerning Trademarks
The party actually strives to strengthen trademarks, not abolish them.

"The Importance of Trademarks

Consumers have a rightful need to know what they buy and companies have a need to protect their trademarks in order to compete fairly. There is a strong public interest here that we wish to address. We aim to strenghten trademark protections between companies somewhat while allowing more lenience in situations like consumer critic and satire. This is designed as an incentive for corporations to take good care of their customers and trademarks as well as strenghtening the consumer's power." - The Pirate Party. Full Declaration of Principles https://www.piratpartiet.se/documents/Principles%202.0.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.115.251.100 (talk • contribs)


 * I wrote the article when the party didn't yet have any party programme, and the have changed their mind on a few points. Feel free to edit the article to correspond to the party programme. -- Elisson • Talk 16:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

POV
User:Slipzen added The results of the poll were however most likley the result of pirate spamming actions and should not be considered to represent the opinions of the swedish people into the article; It's pure POV, so I removed the line.-- Roc VallèsTalk - 23:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. And even if it has to be said that the line he added probably reflects reality, there are no sources, and thus it is nothing more than pure POV. -- Elisson • Talk 23:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone needs to make an empirical study proving the poor quality of anything Aftonbladet does, including their asinine polls so we can criticize them on Wikipedia :( O bli (Talk) ? 23:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Haha! :D Very true, very true indeed. -- Elisson • Talk 23:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, that section might have been POV (though i have nothing against the Pirate Party) but that part of the article is really missleading without it. Almost every kind of major swedish media coverage on "piracy" is anounced on sites like www.piratbyran.org etc and its obvious that it´s making the results missleading. In a regular opinion-poll the results would have been much much lower and i really think that it in some way should be mentioned in the article. Slipzen 00:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Sweden Sux

 * WTF, They even have a Donold Duck Party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Duck_Party  TheMeager 01:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * And your point is...? – Elisson • Talk 10:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I hope you don't live in any country mentioned in List of frivolous political parties, then... - O bli (Talk) ? 12:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * More feed for the troll. Poor fella probably suffers the misfortune of living in an inherently humourless country. --Ezeu 13:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Pirate Party is definitely not a joke political party. It's a serious party dealing with some of the most controversial issues in existance today. Read this text for a summary of their goals, or read the full Declaration of Principles. Wintran 13:56, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Mabey it's not a joke party, but I guess it would be considered a Troll Party. If they want people to take them more seriously, they probably should choose a more serious name.  Do you expect people to take me seriously if I start a Gay Nigger party that advocate against racism and anti-gayism.  Frokster 03:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ehhh... So the name of a party decides if it should be considered a troll party (what the heck is that?) or not? People already take them seriously. – Elisson • Talk 11:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, they're not a troll organization either. If you find the name offensive, then that's all there is to it. I was also sceptical of the name at first, mostly the word "pirate". However, they choose the name to draw attention to them on purpose, like many other parties do. If you were able to read their open discussion forum (most of it in Swedish) you would see that they are serious and definitely not support trolling in any way. Wintran 12:38, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The Party web page does not really reflect the debate very well. If one has not seen the debate in Sweden one would hardly understand why the authors, inventors and artists that I have discussed this with support the party strongly, while the distributors and employees of very large corporations are against the party. DanielDemaret 06:43, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course there are also artists, inventors and authors who are against the party. And large coporations who like the party.
 * Founders of pirate party such as pirate bay certainly does not support "balanced level of copyright" since they are advocating no copyright at all. I mean when you look at the contents on PirateBay, how much content are created by people who are aginst copyright? almost none.  Does the pirate bay advocate software created the Free Software Foundation? Nope.  99% of the contents are created by the very same coporations this party is supposedly advocate against.
 * Frokster 03:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Pirate Bay had nothing whatsoever to do with the foundation of the party. – Elisson • Talk 11:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I wish there was a party in my country like this.-anonymous

Swedish translators

 * http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box is ok
 * http://linguaphile.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/translator.pl is not that good

Anyone know better ones? WP 08:57, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * http://lexin.nada.kth.se/swe-eng.shtml Is strongly recomended - O bli (Talk) ? 11:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sure Swedes on this discussion page are willing to help out when so is needed. —Bromskloss 16:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

systranbox will lock you out after a while. If that happens just delete their cookies and you can continue to use it.
 * http://www.systranet.com/systran/net also ok. requires login, get it from WP 21:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Swedish Exports
According to Music of Sweden Sweden is the third largest exporter of music in the world. Perhaps this may help to explain why copyright is an important issue in sweden? DanielDemaret 18:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC) Third largest exporter in real terms, that is, on a population that a mere is 0.1 % of the world, not in relative terms.DanielDemaret 18:35, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Board members update
After some recent controversy, the board member Cecilia Beckrot has left the board. Should the name just be removed, or should a history of current and former / founding board members be kept?


 * Keeping history is always tidy. If it grows, it can be put in a subsection. DanielDemaret 13:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Piratgruppen
According to the artlicle priatgruppen is a Norwegian sister organisation of Piratbyrån, when i went to piratgruppen.org (is that the web page), the site was in Danish. Could someone verify wich nationality this oranisation has, and maybe add an extern link (since there are no wikipedia article on the subject)?


 * Sweden - http://piratbyran.org
 * Denmark - http://piratgruppen.org
 * Norway - http://piratgruppen.net
 * Martin Ulfvik 22:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Piratbyran.org is back up again, so edited the notice on it being shut down.
 * Thaum1el 14:51, 27 July 2006 (CET)

Renaming
There is now an US Pirate Party at http://www.pirate-party.us/, if the US party grows so that it deserves a wikipedia article then it might be worth renaming this article to Piratpartiet (the Pirate Party's swedish name). /Lokal Profil 12:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There already is an article on the American party, Pirate Party of the United States, but it is up for deletion and it seems it will be deleted. Anyway, this is the English Wikipedia and that means that we shouldn't use the Swedish name whatever happens (unless that Swedish name becomes the most popular English name for the party), and instead disambiguate it like done with most other parties, for example Left Party (Sweden). – Elisson • Talk 12:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, didn't notice that the US party was already up. Lokal Profil 14:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ideology: populist
According to the article on [populism], this ideology is defined:

"Populism is a political philosophy or rhetorical style that holds that the common person's interests are oppressed or hindered by the elite in society, and that the instruments of the state need to be grasped from this self-serving elite and used for the benefit and advancement of the people as a whole. Hence a populist is one who is perceived to craft his or her rhetoric as appeals to the economic, social, and common sense concerns of average people. Most scholarship on populism since 1980 has discussed it as a rhetorical style that can be used to promote a variety of political ideologies. Leaders of populist movements in recent decades have been both on the Left and Right (Canovan, Kazin, Betz)."

What is the foundation for applying such a label on this party? It's a party that run few questions, but not one that adhere to that definition. I haven't found anything in their principles or elsewhere that indicate that they proclaim their fight against an oppressive or hindering elite in society. They oppose a monitoring society, yes, but does that make them populist? I would vote this tag to be taken out of the ideology fact sheet, on grounds that it has been put there, either for slander or because someone has confused populist with 'few questions'. Thaum1el 13:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's on the basis of them supporting the public, who recieve works of art, over the publisher, who currently "owns" the art. Seems simple enough to me.  I didn't put the label there, but it sortof makes sense. Fieari 16:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But the thing is that the Pirate Party doesn't promote the actual infringement of the copyright legislation, but a parliamental change of said legislature. That would mean that if the Social Democrats would want to change the legislation for, let us say rape, to one that happens to have some what much support from the population, or claim to be in public interest (name one law that is not promoted by claims of public interest) they would also be populist, same goes with the US Democrats or Republican parties if they run a policy that happens to have public support on say gun control. In that case, every party would be populist, since they claim public interest as a foundation for their policies. This doesn't say anything about the ideology at all. And it's not like copyright legislation is the only question they run. :)--Thaum1el 19:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * True. I'm not really all that knowledgable when it comes to political terminology anyway.  The current "Ideology" is more specific and accurate anyway, so I don't forsee anyone changing it back to populist. Fieari 17:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Mission accomplished for me, then. --Thaum1el 19:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

IDG
Question: In the "In the first week of media" section, there's no distinction between the two polls run by IDG. Both are simply called "an online poll", with verbiage that would suggest to me that the two polls were run by seperate organizations, except that both polls are attributed to the SAME organization. If they were both run by IDG, could words be given to distinguish between the polls? Also, references needed. Fieari 17:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I would want reference to both the IDG poll(s) and the Aftonbladet one. --Thaum1el 19:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Pirate Parties Map
Norway allso have a pirate parti.

That Pirate Parties map needs to be updated, and please note that West and East Germany has been united for 16 years now. Actually, mavbe it's time for an entirely new article about the Pirate Parties International.
 * Sorry. So that's why Germany looks strange. Which parts need updating? WP 09:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to PP International Net, pirate parties are also starting up in Poland, the Netherlands, the UK, Australia and Canada. 217.209.43.196 15:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also the Austrian party is already registered. Please update the map accordingly -213.33.64.140 07:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. WP 21:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

How is the SVG map updated? It's rather out of date in places... what tools would be used to update it? Falkvinge 08:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess you just download it, edit it with something like Inkscape, and upload the new version under the same name. Regards, /Fifo 18:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Another pirate party is being founded in the Czech Republic. The party web is [here] (in Czech). Official registration should follow in a few weeks. Next ghost 11:13, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

upcoming election
Why is there no mention of the Pirate Party at Swedish general election, 2006? — Coelacan | talk 19:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There's the part on their intention to run for the election in the first paragraph of the "History and founding" heading, other than that we'll just have to wait until the election is over :) - O bli (Talk) ? 19:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand me. If they are in the election (I understand they are on the ballot, correct?) then shouldn't they be included on that page? — Coelacan | talk 04:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, they had just been "accidentally" dropped from the page. — Coelacan | talk 19:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Biased, Inappropriate Sentence
"The party does not have an agenda for any other subjects and therefore it is not possible to place the party anywhere on the left-right scale."

Nigga say what?

That's like saying that the Communist Party's only agenda is the abolition of property, so it is not possible to place the party anywhere on the left-right scale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.211.29 (talk • contribs)
 * Because the concept of reforming copyright legislation in the direction of relaxing it regarding personal use appeals both to the "left-liberal" and "right-liberal" on the traditional left-right political scale. Therefore it is pointless to try to use that scale for this party. -- TimSE 08:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But "left-liberal" and "right-liberal" are both liberal. Name a conservative who supports this.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.211.29 (talk • contribs)
 * - look there. You're looking at it from a US perspective. There are two ways of being liberal. Economically, and socially. I'd say that this is more of a libertarian socialist leaning issue, as I doubt many right-wing libertarians would support making creations of individuals public property. It is not a victimless crime. Atleast, right-wing libertarians would generally agree with that. Joffeloff 23:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In that case, I suggest a new article:


 * Thief Party, a political party whose sole platform is the abolition of property rights and decriminalization of theft. Property rights were created to encourage the creation and exchange of material goods, but the scale has now tipped dangerously away from this original purpose by granting sole "owners" monopoly control of property.  Since the goal of the Thief Party is only to foster communal ownership of material goods in a property rights-free society, they cannot be placed anywhere on the left-right scale.74.128.211.29 15:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You are misunderstanding. On the traditional left-right political scale you have both conservative and liberal entities on both ends of the scale. And to put things simple, there are among those both those who are in favour of relaxing copyright. E.g. libertarianism which ends up deep on the right-wing side can generally be considered to be in favour of this as it is a question of personal freedom and decriminalizing the so called victimless crimes under which this issue can arguably fall under. -- TimSE 17:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me put this another way. Does that sentence serve any purpose other than to promote the ideological goal of abolishing copyright?  Would it make any difference if you deleted the sentence?  If it's obvious, as you say, why include it at all?


 * As with most articles on Wikipedia, this article is maintained by ideologically motivated activists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.211.29 (talk • contribs)


 * For clarity: I dismissed your comment because "right-liberal" is code for leftwing.


 * The ideologically-motivated maintainers of this article have claimed that Swedes and Americans have totally different concepts of what "liberal" and "leftwing" mean. Well, since this article is being read by Americans, perhaps it is you who should internationalize your language.


 * I should also note that the Pirate Party is an international movement with many U.S. adherents, and it would be inexcusible to mislead those people into believing that this movement is not leftwing.74.128.211.29 15:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Copied from my talk page: – Elisson • Talk 10:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So you're the joker who keeps reverting that Pirate Party article. You asked why I keep deleting the sentence?  Obviously, for the reasons I have given on the article's talk page.
 * a) The Pirate Party's agenda is leftwing, and therefore can be place along the traditional left-right scale. Why is it that everyone but pirates, ideologically-motivated Wikipedia article maintainers, and possibly Swedes realizes this?  You take a "party" that is judged by most people to be just left of the Communists and say that it cannot be placed along a left-right scale.  It's unbelievable.
 * b) The sentence adds no value. If the Pirate Party has only four positions, say that it has only four positions.  The encyclopedia is not an appropriate place for political rhetoric.  Post facts only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.211.29 (talk • contribs)


 * I'll reply here as this is the proper place to discuss it.
 * a) The Pirate Party's agenda is not left wing. Nothing they have said or done indicates that. They want to gain 4 % of the votes, so they can hold the balance of power, cooperating with either social democrats or liberals/conservatives, whoever gives the best deal. Several of their demonstrations have been backed by both leftists and rightists. And I guess you're not from Sweden, saying that the party is judged by most people to be just left of the communists? Haha, you're just too funny! I, for example, would consider myself to be a liberal conservative, and would never ever vote communist, but I do think about voting for the Pirate Party. A few quotes from their site (sorry, source only available in Swedish ):
 * "Piratpartiet tar inte ställning höger/vänster-frågor" ("The Pirate Party does not take sides in right/left questions")
 * "Vi är beredda att stödja såväl en socialdemokratisk som en borgerlig regering." ("We are willing to support a social democratic as well as a liberal/conservative government.")
 * "[...]och påpeka att våra hjärtefrågor faktiskt på intet sätt går emot vare sig traditionell socialdemokratisk politik eller traditionell borgerlig politik." ("[...]and point out that our agenda in no way interferes with traditional social democratic or liberal/conservative politics.")
 * b) The fact is that they themselves point out that they cannot be placed on a left-right scale, and thus we should inform the reader that.
 * I will re-add the sentence and source it with the above link. – Elisson • Talk 10:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * While I mostly agree with the statement, I think the present wording can be improved. As the anonymous contributor demonstrates, you can place the party on the left-right scale; the placement just won't be accurate. Fredrik Johansson 10:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * How about "should not"? Since we finally have a reference we only need to settle on the best wording and then stop the edit war. (Anybody checked for WP:3RR?) Shinhan 10:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but here's a version that is at least factual: "Since it does not have an agenda on any other issues, the party claims it is not possible to place it anywhere on the left-right scale."74.128.211.29 12:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter that the Pirate Party itself makes this claim. Of course they make the claim.  What politician doesn't claim to be moderate?  What matters is that the claim is both baseless and biased.  An encyclopedia article is not the appropriate place for parroting campaign slogans as fact.  If you want to include the erroneous sentence, include it as a direct quotation from Pirate Party representatives.


 * Adding a link to an interview written in Swedish is not an improvement.


 * Honestly, I don't think Swedes are capabling of identifying the center of the left-right scale. You cite a quote that says they're willing to work with Democratic Socialists as well as "liberal/conservative politics" (note they did not say "conservative politics").  Why no mention of a conservative party?  The only party I see listed on Wikipedia that could be deemed conservative is the Christian Democrats, and I'm willing to bet they are extremely leftwing by American standards.  So perhaps a good way to rephrase the sentence in question would be:  "Swedish political parties are so extremely leftwing that the Pirate Party, by comparison, is moderate." 74.128.211.29 12:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Fortunately, most of the world doesn't use American units of measurement. Fredrik Johansson 12:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So you agree that, by "American units of measurement", the Pirate Party is leftwing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.211.29 (talk • contribs)


 * By American units of measurement, almost all parties in Europe are left wing... Thus the American way is not to be applied on for example Swedish parties. – Elisson • Talk 12:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Wrong. Europeans just need to admit that they are leftwing and quit playing semantics with the shifting sands of relativistic values.  74.128.211.29 12:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see how a non-European view is relevant here, as the political environment of the party is Sweden, which is in Europe. The voters will not care a bit what the relativistic values of some anonymous American Wikipedia commenter are, but will consider the party according to their own standards. Simply marking all European parties as left-wing on Wikipedia will not further anyone's understanding of the relationships of the European parties either, though stating that all European parties seem left-wing to Americans might be a good idea for the benefit of American readers. Coffee2theorems 17:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Simple solutions do not always work. For the sake of argumentation, I could (and did) argue that an article written for an international audience must utilize international definitions of various terms.  In practice, coloring all of Europe "pink" may not be the best solution.  What that means, however, is not that my argument is wrong, but that practical solutions often must be more complex.  You could, for example, elaborate on the national political scene and place a party on the left-right scale within that specific nation.  Or, you could break the left-right scale down into social and economic spheres.  Or, you could place a party along the liberal-conservative scale wherein those terms are defined by the relative advocacy for change involved.  Or, you could place a party along the....And so on.  Ideally, you would do all of those things.  What you would not do--because it would be fundamentally incorrect to do so--is simply make a blanket statement that it is impossible to place the party along a left-right scale.


 * This statement, "stating that all European parties seem left-wing to Americans might be a good idea for the benefit of American readers," is biased and unhelpful. Swedish political parties not only seem left wing--they are leftwing.  When you stand for leftwing values, you are a leftwing party.  A more appropriate statement would be to say that they seem moderate to Swedes.


 * But I am not approaching this issue from a partisan viewpoint. I am simply stating facts as they exist.  I am in turn being met with distortion of facts motivated by ideological bias.  The ideal solution--if you wish to even address the left-right scale at all--is to approach it from all angles, detailing every complex nuance.  Good luck writing a 50 page Wikipedia article.


 * The article is just fine as currently worded.74.128.211.29 16:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I agree that the Christian Democrats are left-wing by American standards. Which says a lot. But that's irrelevant since the Pirate Party doesn't fit on the left-right scale. Fredrik Johansson 12:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a few days ago, someone linked the "political compass" in an effort to show me that the Pirate Party is neither leftwing nor rightwing. You are aware of the political compass, right?


 * The political compass gathers views from India, the United States, Soviet Russia, China, and so on. It takes views from all around the world and says, "These are leftwing.  These are rightwing.  Your views fall somewhere between these other people's views."  It doesn't ask where you live before making that measurement.


 * If we were to construct a "metaphysical" political compass--an "ideal" political compass--how would it differ from that? Are you saying that Sweden should be at the center, America at the far-right?  If that's what you're saying, I think this article needs a few additional sentences about your re-ordering of the political cosmos. 74.128.211.29 12:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What you don't seem to understand is that because the Pirate Party does not take sides in any other questions than the ones they care about, it is impossible to say that they fit on the left-right scale, or on the political compass. Do you understand that? – Elisson • Talk 13:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand that perfectly, and I disagree. I'm saying that the two primary agendas of the Pirate Party are leftwing agendas.  They are rooted in leftwing ideology.  They serve leftwing goals.  They do not serve any rightwing (i.e. free market capitalism) goals.


 * To give one painfully obvious example: When you talk patent reform without talking drug regulation reform, you are pursuing a leftwing agenda.  You're saying that the benefits to drug companies must go down while the costs go up.  The justification for this is a moral argument that "the people" should benefit from the work of producers, which is *the* leftwing argument.


 * Claiming that it is impossible to place cyber-socialism along a left-right scale is just absurd.74.128.211.29 15:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone clue me in....
 * How EXACTLY are GOLEM right?
 * How EXACTLY is privacy left?
 * GOLEM don't belong on any side, and privacy belongs to both sides, so you can pretty much take your pick anywhere on the left/right scale. --Marco 20:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You might read this paragraph from the official website: "Pharmaceutical patents kill people in third world countries every day. They hamper possibly life saving research by forcing scientists to lock up their findings pending patent application, instead of sharing them with the rest of the scientific community. The latest example of this is the bird flu virus, where not even the threat of a global pandemic can make research institutions forgo their chance to make a killing on patents."  How could anyone in his right mind read that and not realize that the Pirate Party is a leftwing political movement?  It's a simple breakdown.  If you believe that producers have a fundamental right to the ownership of their own product, you are rightwing.  If you believe that producers must be forced by government to give away their product, or to allow their product to be stolen, you are leftwing.


 * As for the privacy agenda, I think that's a sham. I've never encountered a leftist who cares seriously about privacy.  They're usually against government surveillance because they feel the government represents rightwing interests.  ("Stick it to the Man!  Down with Bush!"  The 9/11 reference on the Pirate Party website is a big giveaway.)  But they show no opposition to invasion of privacy ("transparency" as they call it) when Google archives all Usenet posts going back ten years and Wikipedia tags each comment with your IP.  This leftist Internet generation is working hard to create a world with no privacy.  Maybe the Pirate Party actually means what they say, but I am skeptical to say the least.


 * I've gone far enough, though. Unless someone wants to add a "criticisms" section, I don't think it's appropriate to debate the merits of the Party here.  The sentence in question, as currently worded, is factual and non-biased, so I'm satisfied.74.128.211.29 01:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry to bring it up again then. While it differs from the formal defination, here left is the socialistic side, and right is the capitalistic side(free market and stuff) side. It may be this scale they claim to be unplacable on, as privacy and monopolies don't fit on any side. Myself I would hovewer consider them to be right.


 * I have my own simple breakdown. Free market belongs on the right, while Social welfare and regulation belong on the left side. Can't fit privacy anywhere yet though.
 * --Marco 10:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Deleted off-topic thread.


 * Do you really want to go back and forth six more times? Just fucking let it go.  This argument is off-topic and lame.74.128.211.29 15:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Dropping indents for readibility's sake.

You also have to consider that copyrights as they currently exist prevent people from doing what they want with their own property. Taking your physical property and modding it has been declared illegal. Space shifting has been made illegal. Research into your own possession is illegal. DRM makes it so that you no longer own anything, you're just renting it. That sounds like a state-run system to me, which the PP is trying to get rid of. That's anti-left.

You see? There are arguments that they belong on both sides of the scale. If you can say that the position they hold is on both sides of the issue, you can also state that you can't place them on either side, assuming sideism has an exclusivity property.

At the very least, saying that THEY say you can't place them on either side is indisputable fact. I happen to agree with their statement, but no one can dispute that they say it... Fieari 14:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The message of the sentence was fine, but it does need to be reworded. Mathiastck 14:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Map
Please make clearer colors on the map. The blue and black color are hard to see difference.


 * I'll second that! --MarSch 08:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. - Ðra 10:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * When saying that the party faired considerably better on school ellections, maybe the data and source precisely how they faired on those ellections could be stated - also, what exactly are school ellections? Theres some custom of quasi-ellections held only among school populations in sweden? how come? could you please clarify? --195.29.116.165 08:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC) (user Aryah, just noticed I wasnt logged in)
 * This is the site for the school elections: http://www.skolval2006.nu/ 81.233.132.64 12:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Disclosure: Falkvinge sometimes edits
Disclosure: I (user:Falkvinge) sometimes edit this article when I feel I have something factual to add. As I can be suspected of having an interest in introducing a bias into the article, please check that any edits I make are properly sourced and NPOV.

I edit Wikipedia just like anybody else and contribute where I have useful information to add, and naturally I know more than most about this subject, but as I can be suspected of wanting to introduce a bias, I'd appreciate if my edits are peer reviewed. I'm not aware of wanting to introduce a bias, but the possible suspicion is enough. -- Falkvinge 01:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Relakks affiliation?
I heard somewhere that the Pirate Party is affiliated with Relakks. Is this true? --Explodicle 05:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. . /Fifo 17:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Not directly affiliated. Pirate Party advertised Relakks for a share of the revenue but does not own nor started the service. Lord Metroid 08:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Article name/content
If the article is about all the pirate parties internationaly, then it should not be centered around the one in Sweden. S facets 04:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Belgium
The article states Belgium has got a Pirate Party. But, I live in Belgium, and I haven't seen anything of that party yet + I can't find any references on Google + The link on the bottom of the article redirects to a wrong site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neglacio (talk • contribs) 14:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There was a Belgian party in 2006, or at least a website claiming to be such a party, but that website is now gone. Deleting from article.

More on agenda
Can somebody close to the matter please formulate more clearly what the party's agenda/ideology is? E.g.: What are the current goals regarding intellectual property - full abolishment or something else? Thanks! Enobeno (talk) 04:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Currently their stance on copyright is that they want to reduce its duration (currently its like life+70 years or somesuch). I don't think they have a definitive number yet (they'll just take what they can get from compromises other parties would make, should they get into the Riksdag), but I believe the ballparkestimate is something like 5-30 years.

For patents they are looking for full abolishment, but not overnight and not unilaterally. Basically the idea is to get all European (or at least all EU) countries to gradually dismantle the patenting system bit by bit.

Their third core issue is personal privacy and insight into government. "Transparent government, shrouded citizens" is the saying they use. This is the only issue which could reliably be put on a political scale, since copyright and patent relaxation could both be seen as collectivisation (left wing) and deregulation (right wing), and deciding between one or the other in the article without violating NPOV could be troublesome.

They don't have a stance in "distribution politics". That is to say, they have no budget propositions at all. Even if they got 80% of the vote in an election the party line dicatates they form a coalition with whoever is most sympathetic with their platform, and then vote with that party/parties (regardless of its stance on other issues) in every issue which is not related to one of their core planks.

The party has no stance on EU-membership other than that now that Sweden is a member it has the right to demand democratic accountability.

Philosophising over where the party's stance on copyright and patent reform puts them politically can be an enjoyable passtime if one is so inclined, but basically the party itself refuses to accept any other label than "pirate", and their states ideology is simply the Pirate Ideology.

I could go hunting for some references, but I hesitate to edit the article since I don't consider myself objective on the matter. Nicholas90 (talk) 19:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Pirate Party forming in Finland
The pirate party of Finland held its founding meeting on 24 May 2008. It is now collecting signatures required to register as a political party, so it should be marked as green on the map (pirate party in forming stage). piraattipuolue.fi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.16.103.33 (talk) 21:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

European Parliament?
I wonder which political group they would belong to, if elected to the European Parliament? Perhaps European Greens–European Free Alliance would extend a welcome? – Kaihsu (talk) 15:35, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Over 9000
I know it is amusing, but could we use more precise values instead of an in-joke? --cesarb (talk) 16:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly certain we can, yes. Memes belong on Encyclopedia Dramatica, not Wikipedia. Firestorm  Talk 17:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Updating the international pirate party map
The information in the article is inconsistent with the File:PiratePartiesMap6.svg picture. Could someone please update it?U5K0 (talk) 13:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Lisbon Treaty Mandates
When the Lisbon Treaty comes into effect the Pirate party will most likely get one of the additional two Swedish mandates, but this is preliminary. 213.64.69.149 (talk) 07:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Any mandate distribution is preliminary, including their first one.Lejman (talk) 17:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Other Pirate Parties
Maybe it's unnecessary to create pages for most of the other Pirate Parties, but German Pirate Party with 0.9% of the votes in the EU parliament election could use its own page. Maybe we should do one of those (For German Pirate Party, see... ) links on top of this page? Lejman (talk) 22:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. This page should be renamed to pirate_party_sweden and we need a pirate_party_germany on this page we need a little information about Pirate Party International and then links to pirate_party_sweden and pirate_party_germany. We also need a pirate_party_finland since they are registered now. / Jan 21:23, 9 June 2009
 * Any objections to moving the page to Pirate Party (Sweden) and making this page a disambig? - MK (talk/contribs) 19:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * At least put a box to the top of the page linking to the "International" section ... --JensMueller (talk) 00:25, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say the Swedish party is probably the clear Primary topic chandler 00:49, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Czech Pirate Party is now officially registered with the authorities. Could somebody update the map, please? - Next ghost (talk) 21:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Done Usv (talk) 12:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Romania now has an active Pirate Party, still unregistered. Their site is www.partidulpiratilor.ro .If I include this info in the article, could someone please link the homepage as a reference and update the map ? Thanks (194.102.61.170 (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC))

Platform & Ideology
Most pages on political parties have sections explaining their platform and ideologies. I think that this article should also have information like that in it. --Melab±1 &#9742; 01:17, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Membership count is over 9000
Someone posted "As of early 2007, the Party had over 9,000 members[10]." but I'm pretty sure this is a meme reference and not the actual figure. Could someone with better knowledge of Swedish look at the referenced page and update? 93.96.134.41 (talk) 17:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no need to suspect conspiracy every time you see the number 9000. Historical party numbers: there are 9358 members as of 2007-01-01 00:00. I don't think you need to state the exact number here, so "over 9,000" is the correct choice of words. F (talk) 12:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Since I make the member number over 48,000 from various sources, and it both says there are over 9,000 members and over 9,000 joined after the Pirate Bay trial... I call meme. Tobz1000 (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Moving to Pirate Party (sweden)
Currently there is the swedish party on this page, and an overview of the International movement. Wouldn't moving to Pirate Party (Sweden) in line with the other Pirate Parties be a better solution, leaving this page to cover the overall movement. Right now it's half Pirate Party Sweden, and half Pirate Party general/international. I know they were the first, but still it is time for a cleanup. 68.218.22.31 (talk) 21:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Canada
Can someone clean up the image for Pirate Parties worldwide, now that Canada's Pirate Party is accepting members and is expected to register sometime soon? -- Z blewski  |talk   23:16, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Ref from WP:RS to integrate in article text
"In tune with the needs of the EU's new pirates", European Voice

Quote to add: “The Pirate Party grew out of organisations such as FFII and EFF, not the Pirate Bay." MaxPont (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Making patents obsolete
Patents won't be truly obsolete until someone "invents" a new and better type of patent. Open source is one example. Are there others?--Nowa (talk) 14:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Open source is not concerned with patents so much as with copyright, for which there is an absolute necessity anyway. Nor is open source a "replacement" for copyright in any way, it is just a different licence applied to the creation by the copyright holder.
 * The Pirate Party isn't advocating the abolition of copyright. ɹəə pıɔnı  16:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Open Source is not an alternative to patents. First, it does only apply to copyrightable works; Stuff that isn't copyrightable (for instance, the hardware of the computer I'm using right now) cannot be Open Source. Second, Open Source is an alternative to proprietary licenses. Of course, Open Source is not compatible with software patents. But Open Source is not an alternative to patents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.156.56.87 (talk) 16:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

International Scope
Perhaps it is too early to do this, but at some point this article should really be changed to a general overview of the international Pirate Party movement with a separate page focused on the original founding Swedish arm. ɹəə pıɔnı  16:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. The German Pirate Party is now preparing for the federal election and it might (possibly) enter parliament. In the german language wikipedia, "Pirate Party" displays informations about what all the pirate parties have in common and then links to national pirate party articles. 124.171.180.123 (talk) 15:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the international list was changed around, but I liked there being two separate lists that highlighted which party was registered and which party was not. Could that aspect be restored? Otherwise, I like the fact that the different countries all link directly to their respective websites.--IceCube85 (talk) 17:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The UK party is now registered
I'm involved too closely to make this change myself... could someone move the United Kingdom party from 'Active but unregistered' list to 'Officially Registered' please?


 * The registration of the Pirate Party UK is a fact, so you are not too involved to edit it yourself. The "Don't edit if it's about you" would only apply if you wanted to write something like "The Pirate Party UK is the best political party in the world and everyone who disagrees smells!" 203.214.115.85 (talk) 08:29, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Proof of registration is here: http://registers.electoralcommission.org.uk/regulatory-issues/regpoliticalparties.cfm?frmGB=1&frmPartyID=900&frmType=partydetail —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.199.78 (talk) 12:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, the Pirate Party UK had it's article deleted for lack of notability (understandable as this was pre-launch). Now that we've launched we have quite a bit of press coverage (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6011356/Pirate-Party-UK-now-registered-by-the-Electoral-Commission.html and http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/pirate-party-uk-sets-sail-624848 for example... and Slashdot is expected to cover the story soon - gulp!). Perhaps we are now notable? 91.110.199.78 (talk) 19:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure looks like it. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The Map
The map has some innacuracies. I don't know of any russian PP, yet it's coloured Blue, and Ukrayne is not colured, yet it should be blue(active). There is also a Pirate Party in Slovenia. 85.204.111.230 (talk) 02:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC) A pirate


 * There's also a PP forming in Turkey. Here's the link to their page: http://korsanpartisi.org/index.php/Ana_sayfa and to an article in turkish (i don't speak turkish) http://www.hurhaber.com/news_detail.php?id=209642 ArnoldPlaton (talk) 11:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Declaration of Principles
The declaration of principles seem to have some inaccuracies in their interpretations of the quotes. I am going to add a dispute tag to the article page. For example:

Copyright: “We claim that today’s copyright system is unbalanced” Hence their position that file sharing (e.g. music) should be decriminalized.

I see nothing on their site that mentions anything about file sharing being decriminalized... Aaron5367 13:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron5367 (talk • contribs)


 * I´ts not a good sentence, since filesharing in itself isn´t illegal. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Clarifying (with some degree of authority): First, I agree in the unfortunateness that "file sharing" has come to mean two distinctly different things which overlap; 1) the sharing of files, agnostically of its legal status, and 2) specifically illegal sharing of files. --- With that said, the Pirate Party wants to return copyright to cover commercial use only. The copyright monopoly must not cover what non-commercial entities do at all; one effect of this would be that all file sharing between private individuals were legal, so "legalizing file sharing" is not that far off linguistically. In fact, PP goes further than that, and claims that any noncommercial collection, use, derivation and distribution of works (copyrighted or not) should not only be allowed and legalized, but explicitly encouraged. Relevant quotes from the English translation of the Principles: Laws must be altered to regulate only commercial use and copying of protected works, and All non-commercial gathering, use, processing and distribution of culture shall be explicitly encouraged. -- Falkvinge (talk) 13:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

One or more american PP?
Does anybody know who these guys are? http://www.piratepoliticalparty.com/ - somebody changed the link at the bottom of the article from http://www.pirate-party.us/ to that. I reverted the change. Is that a new link to the old PPUS (redesigned) or a new, independent branch? Seams like the latter. (Question also posted on the PPUS wikipage) ArnoldPlaton (talk) 19:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The link to http://www.piratepoliticalparty.com/ is dead as of 2012-01-12 17:57 UTC. The US pirate party (which was incorporated as a for-profit company because the US doesn't recognize parties on the federal level) has formally dissolved because the existing state organization found that a federal party organization, incorporated as a for-profit company was not what they needed. It has been replaced with a loose federation of the already existing state organizations. The Website has moved to http://us.pirate.is/ as the old domain (pirate-party.us) is now maintained by the pirate party of Florida. -- 62.156.56.87 (talk) 17:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

The Pirate Party of New Zealand
PPNZ have been very active lately; some of the users frustrated with the lack of activity at pirateparty.co.nz went ahead and registered pirateparty.net.nz, set up a phpbb and wiki, and put a lot of effort into adapting/rewriting policy and charter to suit New Zealand (and we're still working on it). We've also dug up many links in support of copyright reform, patent reform and privacy/censorship issues such as the proposed 'cleanfeed' internet filtering system. This material is all under CC-BY-SA 3.0 if wikipedia or any of the other PP's wish to reuse it. The owner or pirateparty.co.nz has since redirected his domain to our website, and we've approached the owner of pirateparty.org.nz to do the same.

There's also been some discussion about running the party and setting policy (outside of the core issues) via a very open 'internet voting' system. This idea inspired by Us Now

I think may also be useful to make a comparison between the current Pirate movement (reforming outdated laws restricting filesharing) with the pirate radio movement of the 1960-70's (reforming outdated laws restricting broadcast radio) Eg Pirate_radio_in_Europe and Radio_Hauraki in New Zealand. This idea still to be explored...

(zcat, aka Edison Carter, 2 Nov 2009) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.24.205 (talk) 22:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Richard Stallman
I think you have RMS suggestion mixed up. He stated that the source code of *proprietary* software should be put in escrow for five years, not the sourcecode of Free Software - the latter wouldn't even make sense since the source code of Free Software is already available by definition. See http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/pirate-party-and-free-software

I hope that somebody will correct this in the article. 189.70.81.229 (talk) 03:40, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Pirate Party offers to host WikiLeaks
I want this nationalist bull posted up here for reference. The Pirate Party of Sweden aims it's nationalist agenda at the US Government. I'm not going into a rant about all the potential deaths caused by this incident. But the fact that they said it and it happened is totally relevant and should be listed and described. Obviously I am not a source for a NPOV. But if the Pirate Party of Sweden wants to push it's nationalism and contribute to death of soldiers unrelated to the government that are simply doing their job, then they should be labeled as such and it should be listed here. 67.246.185.40 (talk) 15:15, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * They should furthermore be branded with the definition of Anti-Americanism as defined by wiki itself and such listed references proper. I will add that any such disagreement must fall under the NPOV conduct and must not be denied due to any bias or opinionated disagreement.67.246.185.40 (talk) 15:26, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Supporting Wikileaks does not automatically make the Pirate Party anti-American. It is possible to support a group or an ideal without opposing another group or ideal after all.Mremeralddragon (talk) 20:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That the Pirate Party is anti-American is, well, technically bullshit. We're a Swedish political party and don't care what America does. America is a different country. We are running in Swedish elections. Is the user who wrote the original remark anti-Swedish? -- Falkvinge, December 8 2010, 18:38 CET —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.96.134.19 (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that it is not a good idea to protect or refuse to protect someone's life because of their nationality. People who commit war crimes are evil, regardless of their own nationality or of the nationality of their victims. I believe that people who help to reveal war crimes (such as Bradley Manning) deserve an award, not punishment. -- 79.238.168.220 (talk) 01:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was page moved at 06:42, 24 December 2009 by User:Gamsbart —  æk Talk 07:03, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Pirate Party → Pirate Party (Sweden) — For disambiguation. Whilst the Swedish Pirate Party is the biggest and most significant party of that name, there are enough other Pirate Parties to create plentiful scope for confusion for both readers and editors. By adding the "(Sweden)" disambiguator to the name of this article, the disambiguation page currently at Pirate Party (disambiguation) can be moved to Pirate Party. This will allow the bots which monitor links to disambiguation pages to flag up any misplaced links, and allow editors to use WP:POPUPS to fix any such incoming links. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:06, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 07:46, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No objections. The article at this title should probably be expanded a bit beyond a simple disamig: For example, background, influence and philosophies of all the pirate parties akin to the Green Party article. henrik  • talk  16:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. I would like to see Pirate Party become an article about generic parties of this type, common ideologies, etc. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 19:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Support . What content will go on this page however? A disambig. list page? ɹəə pıɔnı  21:24, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Preferable to a disambiguation page would be an article about pirate parties in general, as we have at Green party. These parties are all based around the same general policies: reform of copyright law, freedom of speech, privacy protection, open government. See the umbrella organisation, Pirate Party International. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 21:54, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. When the move is made, "Pirate Party" can be created as a simple diambiguation page, using Pirate Party (disambiguation). If an article on the "Pirate parties movement" is later added under that name, the disambiguation page can be restored under its name. But there is no need to wait for an overview article to move the Swedish party. Tomas e (talk) 13:43, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.