Talk:Pirates versus Ninjas

Timeline
I think the timeline is superfluous nonsense. Most of the items are of the "this game/book/movie/whatever mentions a pirate, and this other game/book/movie/whatever has a ninja in it" variety. For starters, Talk Like a Pirate Day and Scrubs have nothing to do with the debate. 63.3.0.129 20:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this article should be deleted at sight
I don't think this article should be deleted at sight; it's well written and gives valuable information. To me it answered what the hell this strip by Norwegian cartoonist M was all about. Rename, merge or list on AfD as you like, but it shouldn't just be swept under the rug like this. Eixo 22:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, this is clearly not patent nonsense, just a unique subcultural in-joke. -- stillnotelf   has a talk page  22:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it should be deleted, but a serious overhaul is needed. Phantombantam 22:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * How is this notable, when Genmay isnt? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.151.72.200 (talk) 23:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC).


 * That is just one forum. This is across the internet, much like the you have two cows joke. Phantombantam 23:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Lock?
I think it would be a really good idea if this article were locked for a day or so. It was linked on digg within the hour. Expect lots of vandalism. 24.124.70.238 09:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Previous deletion
Archived discussion of a previous version of this article (this is not a recreation) exists at Articles for deletion/Pirates Versus Ninjas. The original content is preserved here, here, and here.-- stillnotelf   has a talk page  22:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the previous article was a joke, this one is factual. The afd result don't apply. Eixo 22:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I agree, and I would vote keep in a new AFD, I was just collecting links for other users' convenience and amusement. -- stillnotelf   has a talk page  23:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Origin?
People say that Real Ultimate Power was the cause of it, but as mentioned in the article, there were references to it previously, and I am fairly certain that in the late 1990s I had heard of the idea. But I can't remember how. Anyone know of any other pre-RUP ninja vs pirate references? Titanium Dragon 10:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this has been around a lot longer than Real Ultimate Power.
 * Ninjas (and karate) were pretty big in the 80s and early 90s - think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, American Ninja, Karate Kid movies. Also lots of comics got ninjas involved too - Daredevil & Batman both got retconned to have ninja training. I think the pirate thing is more recent though. Maybe Sid Meier's Pirates and Pirates of the Caribbean had something to do with it? 203.97.255.167 01:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * How about Naruto and One Piece contributing to this? 205.174.22.20 06:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know--Naruto and One Piece might just contribute in the sense that they are about the stereotypical pirates and ninjas--I don't think they are any more than indirectly related. --authraw 01:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Naruto and One Piece suck. The ninjas don't wear enough black and the pirates aren't harry enough. And I remember hearing that the first message broadcast between 2 technicians on Arpanet was "who do you think would win a fight: ninjas, or pirates?"Toxic Ninja 05:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

You are all wrong. This debate has obviously been raging since there were pirates and ninja's to fight each other. . . So seriously, the major thing this article misses out on as far as origins is the internet video "How to Kill a Mockingbird".


 * 2000, a noted internet troll/comedian with the screen name "McUZI" posted a thread on the site "Who would win in a fight- Ninjas or Pirates?". It went for numerous pages and is the earliest known citation of this now famous combo- at least, no one has been able to find an earlier example of it that was as clear in its comedic intent of pairing Ninjas with Pirates for a fight --Tactical1000001 23:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

1992, Streets of Rage 2, had Ninja Pirates in the 2nd level.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.183.235.196 (talk) 16:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Improvement of Article
I'm not a fan of article deletion...if you've got some bit of info to share with the world, then share it, but this isn't well written, or documented. It's very hard to chronicle the saga of a pop-culture topic of conversation. Who were the first two people to debate this? We will probably never know. Rowlan 05:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The battle is a battle as heated as politics. However, the people writing are neither as well-spoken or as boring. You should be glad that the article is neutral. This article isn't edited by people who care about the quality of writing, but those who are passionate about the arguemnt. Loosen up. --69.140.143.86 21:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)King of the easter eggs 10/24/06

Order
Why is this article "Pirates vs Ninjas" instead of "Ninjas vs Pirates". For one thing, Ninja's a vastly superior to Pirates in almost every concivable way, and another "N" comes before "P" in the english alphabet. How was the title of this page chosen? Does anyone else have some input on this? (Animedude 08:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact that Ninjas are "vastly superior to pirates" is irrelevant as far as Wikipedia goes (especially since pirates are better) but the general order is "Pirates vs Ninjas". If you were to type in "Pirates vs Ninjas" (with the quotes) into Google, you get about 140,000 hits. "Ninjas vs Pirates" gets about 25,200. Big difference there. Plus, the article was started at Pirates versus Ninjas, so all of the discussion on the article is here. If we were to move it to Ninjas versus Pirates, we would have to move all of the talk stuff, too, and it's really not worth the hassle. --authraw 20:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Those are all valid reasons. I guess it doesnt really matter, since the Ninja's superioty over the pirates is so great, that allowing them to be spoken first wont matter much. Since, they will be dead in a mtter of seconds. (Animedude 06:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC))

Searching either Pirates vs. Ninjas or Ninjas vs. Pirates brings the same article. Ninjas do win. --69.140.143.86 21:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC) King of the easter eggs 10/24/06

I believe that the popular order (Pirate vs Ninja) is also meant to be a subtle take on the PvP (Player vs Player) acronym; as such, it's only recognizable as PvN, and not NvP, which sounds more like MVP. aeonite 17:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is easily solved by google fight. : http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ninja&word2=pirate : http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ninja+vs+pirate&word2=pirate+vs+ninja
 * As of when I'm doing this Ninja is is winning as more searched in the basic and in the vs ninjas vs pirates is winning 1,310,000 to 1,300,000, while ninja basic won by like a 6:5 ratio. 05:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

My feeling, is that saying "Pirates Vs. Ninjas" rolls off the tongue much better. When you say "Ninjas Versus Pirates", the "ja" sound in ninja stops the flowing of the phrase, whereas the transition from the word "pirates" to "versus" is naturally easy.

I think that since you all disagree on whether you should change the name for the obvious reson ( ninja absolutely trumps pirate) why not put it in alphabetical order ( 'n' being before 'p' that would be ninja v. pirate ) my other suggestion is start a poll to see which one is more popularKoolone0 (talk) 01:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Notwithstanding the fact that you're ressurecting a year and a half-old thread, Pirates vs. Ninjas is the more common usage, thus, the article remains titled as such. xenocidic (talk) 01:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

What about Pie Versus Cake?
Why is it that something like this(considering how stupid it is) gets an article while the pie v cake debate gets none? It doesn't even get a mention in an article about a debate who's outcome depends on who gets the drop on who! BioTube 02:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Stupid as it may be, "pie vs cake" returns 107 Google results . "pirates vs ninjas" returns about 154,000 results . Pirates vs Ninjas is a true internet phenomenon--I haven't heard a whole lot about the pie vs cake debate. --authraw 03:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This debate isn't nearly as stupid as pie vs. cake. Maybe someday that will be a valid argument, but presently the world cares a lot more about pirates vs. ninjas. This article is extremely difficult to keep neutral, giving situations would make it biased and unwikipedian--69.140.143.86 21:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)King of the easter eggs 10/24/06

History
How about placing some historical stuff? Such as when Portuguese Ships (royal, not pirates) first reached Japan Empire (ruled by samurai, not ninjas). (next section is only my opinion in the polemics) Also, pirates and ninjas won't even fight. Ninjas can't get to an high-seas ship to assassinate the pirate, neither can the pirate find the ninja hideout, and even if they (either one) can, is there enough honor (to kill one pirate ship with all that work, sacrificing many valuable ninjas) or loot (to steal from a humble ninja clan hidden so deep in the woods, after spending so much supplies in the search)?


 * Ninjas could be hired to assassinate pirates when they port, or pirates could just happen to be around when the ninjas come for someone else, or even, the pirates might have been hired by some crime lord for protection and the ninjas come for the crime lord; many possibilities... --TiagoTiago (talk) 20:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

WTF? Where's NPOV?
Is there a counter-part for this???

I couldn't find (I'm not good at searching wikipedian categories). 200.230.213.152 02:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I've made a ninja version for NPOV purposes, and I think ninjas rock.

Toxic Ninja 03:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Now in easy to use- userbox format! Toxic Ninja 20:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Naruto & One Piece

 * Shouldn't something be included in this article regarding the popularity of Naruto and One Piece with anime fans? That is, the popularity of Ninjas (Naruto) in America contrasting the popularity of Pirates (One Piece) in Japan? Terek 07:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, there is spillover of "pirates vs ninjas" into the fandom of both series, and least in America. I can personally attest to that. However, for inclusion into this article we'd need reliable sources, and for some odd reason Wikipedia doesn't recognize how reliable my word is. :P Redxiv 08:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes.When one thinks of "Pirates vs Ninjas",anime fans generally think of Naruto and One Piece.You people may have something there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R.G. (talk • contribs) 17:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The only "source" I can find is that One Piece was first published in August 97 and the first one shot of Naruto was also released in August 97, but didn't start proper until 99... coincidence? 99.252.229.179 (talk) 05:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Plurality
For what it's worth, the plural of "ninja" is "ninja", not "ninjas". 71.193.152.63 23:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There isn't such a thing as a proper plural anymore, goose-geese, moose-moose, so just let people call it whatever they want.Toxic Ninja 05:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The english language does evolve with each generation... Does anyone use "who" and "whom" correctly anymore? More importantly, does anyone care? If so, why? Fosnez 11:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I use who and whom correctly. :P 129.237.90.48 08:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Ninjas, unlike Pirates, don't assemble as a group. Therefore when referring to "Ninjas" it is more respectful to simply called them by the singular Ninja: such as a title or label. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gorba (talk • contribs) 05:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Chigau ze. The plural of "ninja" is ninja because Japanese doesn't have a grammatical plural--English does, generally with "-s", so ninjas is acceptable, too.  If one, in speaking Japanese, wanted to be specific that one meant more than one ninja, one would probably say "ninjatachi".  And of course ninja assembled in groups; ever heard of the Iga-gumi, Koga-gumi, Fuma-gumi, or Ten Heroes of Sanada? 71.223.169.27 04:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The correct plural here is completely irrelevant. The whole concept has evolved as "Pirates Vs. Ninjas". For instance, if you're arguing it should be "Pirates Vs. Ninja", you're also arguing [that other meme] should be "I am in your base, killing your dudes" (instead of "Im in ur base killin ur d00dz"), and that just sounds stupid, doesn't it? In my opinion, it should be treated as a proper noun. In other words, "Pirates Vs. Ninjas is a meme that raises the question 'who would win in a fight: pirates or ninja'?"Crummel 04:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't you mean "In other words, "Pirates Vs. Ninjas is a meme that begs the question 'who would win in a fight: pirates or ninja'?" -Michael


 * That's actually not how Crummel meant it, since begging the question is not (as some would have you believe) begging for the question to be asked (which would be, as he said, raising the question), but rather circular logic (the handy-dandy search function will explain if you type in "beg the question"). Don't correct if you have no idea what you're talking about. 129.237.90.48 08:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

The grand father of pirates
Why no mention to maddox? First reference on his site http://maddox.xmission.com/bpitu97_98.gif in second paragraph.

Contains a lot of irrelevant content
This page about pirates versus ninjas contains a lot of irrelevant content. For example, the entry Talk Like a Pirate Day. Yes, this is relevant to pirates, but not to Pirates versus Ninjas debate. If this content is necessary, then all the content about pirates--history, global economic effects, etc.--would have to be included. Same with the ninja. This article should be limited to the content matter, and leave those parts exclusively about pirates and ninja in a Pirate wiki and Ninja wiki respectively.


 * While I personally prefer Ninja, I think that the National Talk Like a Pirate Day is important to include in the list for a couple of reasons. First, it demonstrates the rising popularity of the pirate faction and how it was introduced into popular culture. While it isn't directly related to the PvN debate, it is important to have a "source" for the Pirates so we can see how Ninjas were later integrated. Secondly, the since-created Ninja Day directly corresponds with TLAPD, in that it was created as an ninja alternative to an established pirate "holiday". As a result, it is important to note the creation of TLAPD on the timeline, even though the PvN debate did not yet exist in popular culture at the time. Perhaps the addition of a small sentence clarifying this would be useful.
 * Also, as elsewhere noted on this talk page, the "To Kill A Mockingbird" flash "book report" includes strong but unspoken PvN themes. It even includes an alliance between them near the end. Personally I am certain that it was the first time that I noticed the PvN debate. I am going to research the dates and perhaps add it to the timeline if I feel it warrants mention as a significant development, or not if it's only a by-product of the meme. 63.239.183.126 14:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

So, wait...
We leave this, and destroy thorough articles about webcomics that also exist in published form? Huh.
 * There is no cabal. Lots42 (talk) 08:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Hanzo and the Fuma
What about Hattori Hanzou, Jounin of the Iga-gumi, possibly being killed by the Fuma, who had once been ninja and degenerated into pirates? Surely that warrants mention in this article somewhere.

Certainly a closer real-life parallel than that idiotic thing about Japanese whalers. Nagakura shin8 19:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Pirates Vs. Ninja in Popular culture
Hopefully, this will narrow the scope of the section so that not every website with "Pirate" or "Ninja" on it needs to be on the timeline. Timelines are for well documented subjects, which internet memes most certainly are not. I think any NEW content should be discussed first, to keep this article from bloating. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phantombantam (talk • contribs) 06:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

Secret History of the Debate
I deleted this section because it was unsourced and appeared to be original research. Viltris 04:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That might be said of the article as a whole. Surprising this never went through an AfD  MrZaius  talk  05:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Facebook
How about a mention of the [], Facebook, application. It has over 2 million people that have added it. Bluemilkman 21:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I second that. 129.237.90.48 08:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

-And here's a third. I can't believe they want to delete this, it is one of the more factually correct and informative articles on Wikipedia :) (Proud level 3 ninja) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.49.251 (talk) 03:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Concerning Facebook
I've added some bare-minimal information on the Facebook app, complete with references and a quote. (By the way, I'm a Level 7 Pirate, Top Pirate in Ferris State University's PvN network, #5001 in all Facebook as of 12/3/07 and #2620 among all Pirates.) --The Bulldozer (talk) 05:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Woah!
Please don't delete this, I'm using it as a reference in my essay about pirates vs ninja in internet culture. This article needs a bit of cleaning up, but it was a useful resource for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.89.255 (talk) 01:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

To the rescue.
I've saved this article to DozerfleetWiki for safekeeping, in case it is deleted. You may allude to it here. I'll be fixing it for formatting and credits soon. You may use whatever you wish from this article, and it's licensed under Creative Commons 3.0. --The Bulldozer (talk) 06:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Update needed
"In 2007, Rhode Island's premiere Goth/Industrial club night, Sanctuary, hosted a Pirates vs. Ninjas themed club event featuring a danceoff. The Pirates were victorious due to sheer volume. There will be a rematch April 6, 2008."

So what happened???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.18.61.15 (talk) 19:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Monkeys
Hello, random user here; has anyone heard of the now up and rising pirate monkey/pirate ninja phenomenon (I think it deserves a section here, as it can't really be added anywhere else), and moreover, why hasn't anyone made a link to this, this, and this yet? It's a decidedly minor thing but even so...

7h3 3L173 (talk) 23:37, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The Delicate Balance:
Well? whaddaya think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.182.95 (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC) NINJAS PWN ALL PIRATES —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.122.95.245 (talk) 16:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Far too much stuff in article deleted by one user
In a day's time one editor has wiped out most of the article without discussion. Listing notable examples of the Pirate versus Ninja phenomenon appearing, I believe is not only interesting to those who will actually want to read the article, but also important encyclopedic content, showing how things developed over time. Others please state their opinion here.  D r e a m Focus  03:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Primary sourced list cruft. What "encyclopedic" value was "lost"? If they are indeed "notable" then find some third party sources that have noted them. Active Banana (talk) 03:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I am going through the list now, and have removed anything that isn't notable. Things that link to their own Wikipedia article, or have news mention of them in video game reliable source sites or whatnot, belong here.   D r e a m Focus  03:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Random lists of even notable stuff does not make encyclopedic content. Active Banana (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You should actually read that link. It doesn't say anything about this sort of thing.  Wikipedia has always had notable examples of something an article was about listed in that article, or in some cases a side article.   D r e a m Focus  05:33, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:IINFO "As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia" and realted WP:NOTDIR "Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed. ... Wikipedia articles are not: Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics ... Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contribute to the list topic" there is no indication that such factor exists for these entries. Active Banana (talk) 17:26, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Does anyone other than Active Banana believe the listcruft tag should be in the article?  D r e a m Focus  05:33, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep. Most of the examples seems to be finding intersections of pirates and ninjas through original synthesis, when they are unrelated to the pirates vs ninjas meme. Certainly the 1989 videogame has nothing to do with the meme. Fences  &amp;  Windows  17:06, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It was the first appearance of pirates fighting ninjas. That is what this is all about.   D r e a m Focus  05:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "It was the first appearance of pirates fighting ninjas." sez who? unless you have better access sources than I do. I found nothing to support that claim in the dozens and dozens of free online sources that I searched. Active Banana (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I mean, its the first appearance of pirates fighting ninjas that we have found out so far. If someone finds something that came out sooner than that, then it'll go ahead of it on the list.   D r e a m Focus  20:52, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you say WP:OR? Active Banana (talk) 22:56, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you say COMMON SENSE? It isn't original research to say that a game that came out in 1989 had it 20 years before one that came out in 2009.   D r e a m Focus  00:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Claiming or impying that something is part of the ninja v pirate meme is not a "common sense" issue. Its a matter of policy and having sources to support any analysis and interpreation we put in the article. Active Banana (talk) 00:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * meme is a unit of cultural ideas, symbols or practices, which can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals or other imitable phenomena. You can list every notable appearance in something that a significant number of people witnessed or heard about, that the only way to track it. Not everyone first heard about it from the same source.   D r e a m Focus  03:24, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * RE: "You can list every notable appearance in something that a significant number of people witnessed or heard about," - It is original research for US to determine that. And what is your evidence that "a significant number of people witnessed or heard about" Skull & Crossbones-apparently not enough that it is notable. And wikipedia is NOT a list of indiscriminate information.Active Banana (talk) 11:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The article is about "pirates versus ninjas". Listing the notable media that have "pirates versus ninjas" in them, is important to show how its impacted and been influenced by the media.  The first thing on the list perhaps wasn't notable.  The rest have their own articles, so have already proven to be notable by Wikipedia standards.   D r e a m Focus  14:46, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be original research. We don't need to build a list of things that reference pirates vs ninjas to show that it has entered popular culture. We need to (and have) link to secondary sources that do this for us. Wentomowameadow (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

WHAT HAPPENED? CAN WE FIX IT?
There was a time when this article was written well enough that it was useful in educating those who were ignorant of the basic Pirate vs. Ninja idea.

This is no longer true.

While any article related to web culture is going to have much debate over what is and is not considered relevant or "encyclopedic", I don't think it is acceptable for articles to be poorly written. As an example, the very first sentence of the article has been edited from:

Pirates versus Ninjas (or vice versa) is an internet meme that circulates in the form of an ongoing debate that asks the question "Who would win in a fight: pirates or ninjas?[1]"

into

Pirates vs. Ninjas is a comedic Internet[1] and gaming[2][3] meme regarding a theoretical conflict between pirates and ninjas, generally including arbitrary "debate" over which side would win in a fight.

Please note that the simple and concise question that is the meme (who would win: pirates or ninjas) has been edited to the point where it is no longer recognizable. I hope all will recognize that the net result of the edits/discussion/trolling etc. over the years is a two paragraph article that does not make sense to anyone unfamiliar with the subject matter.

It can be better, but clearly a plan for improvement is needed. Would anyone like to propose an outline? Somethingshiny (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC).
 * Um... that second sentence actually looks much better. I don't know what your problem is with it. It states it is not merely unique to the internet, emphasises the fact that the conflict is merely theoretical, and points out that any debate is typically "lol no smoke bomb". Also, it no longer looks like it was written by a sixth-grader. 143.92.1.33 (talk) 01:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The current imag
At least have one that doesn't look like marshmallows being angry. Lots42 (talk) 08:51, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Concurrency of pirates and ninjas in modern times
...and there is no evidence to suggest that pirates and ninjas existed during the same time period...

Perhaps that should read "...to suggest that clasical pirates and ninjas existed during...", since nowadays there are enough pirates to make the news (in the coast of Africa for example) and there are plenty practitioners of the ninja arts as well. --TiagoTiago (talk) 21:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Citation note
There's a "citation needed" tag attached to the assertion that actual confrontations between pirates and ninjas have never been recorded in history. Is it really necessary to attach a "citation needed" tag to a sentence which states that there is nothing to cite in the first place? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.51.41.196 (talk • contribs) 08:10, 31 December 2012
 * That does seem silly. But it's not really a claim we should be making if a reliable source hasn't said the same. --BDD (talk) 00:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)