Talk:Pittsburgh Steelers/Archive 1

herodecks URL?
Should the herodecks URL be included, do not see much history on that page, but you can buy a deck of cards Stmoose 19:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm doing this wrong, but should the "John Gillam" listed as taking Bradshaw's QB job really be "Joe Gilliam"?

For God's sakes people, if you're going to vandalize it and congratulate them, at least spell it right!!! bob rulz 03:57, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

It might be prudent to wait until the Super Bowl is actually played, as well. Khanartist 05:37, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

Bob rulz, in all fairness, "Roethlisburger" was the only real mistake there. To any native speaker of Pittsburghese, "Stillers" is the correct spelling. 10:05, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Astroid vs. Hypocycloid
I'm no math expert, but doing a quick google clearly shows that the steerlers logo is made up of three astroids, which themselves are made up of hypocycloid arcs. Just look at the article for an astroid and tell me it doesn't look like the Steeler's logo. Charles 16:51, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I called the Steelers office and asked them. Hypocycloid. Revert. Khanartist  18:21, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)

What would someone in the front office know about it? According to http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Hypocycloid.html a hypocycloid describes an equation which can form astroids, deltoids, and an infinite other number of shapes. Unless you're willing to argue that this deltoid (curve) is what the Steelers logo looks like, I think astroid is the most accurate description of the logo, and I don't care if Emperor Noll himself says otherwise. Charles 18:59, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Fine, Khanartist, you win. The Steelers inaccurately refer to the symbol as a hypocycloid, and until they change their mind, you're not going to accept any other authority on the matter, the truth be damned.  And if the Steelers someday change their mind and start calling the symbol an apple pie, I'm sure you'll be there to "correct" the article to refer to the astroid as an apple pie. Charles 19:05, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Duly noted. Khanartist  04:37, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)


 * In answer to your query, I insist on changing it because the "source" you refer is is wrong. inaccurate. not correct. The steelers logo is and always has been three astroids.  You refuse to debate the issue.  You revert back to your version despite efforts at both discussion and compromise.  Whatever.  In a few months someone else will notice the mistake and try again, and perhaps by then you'll have moved on. Charles 15:59, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I note that shortly after the above comment was written, an anon user appeared and changed hypocycloid to astroid as his first edit. Interesting. Khanartist  21:08, 2005 Feb 26 (UTC)


 * Don't look at me. I've never used a sock puppet, and I certainly wouldn't over such a stupid issue as this.  I'd sooner suspect it's someone who's been following the debate (one-sided though it's been).  After you rejected without comment my last attempt at compromise language, I said I was done, and I meant it.  In fact, in the spirit of wikipedia, I apologize for suggesting that you held some blind allegiance to an arbitrary authority.  My ridiculous apple pie comment was made in frustration.  I also appreciate you actually calling the Steelers front office to see what their take is on the shape.  I think we just disagree on the relative importance of the Steelers "official" nomenclature versus the mathematical term.  One reason the Steelers might refer to it as a hypocycloid is that the term astroid might cause more confusion given it's similarity to asteroid.  Better for them (albeit less accurate) to use a more obscure sounding term than one likely to cause confusion every time someone asks.  Charles 14:45, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * The shape is clearly either an "astroid" or a "hypocycloid of four cusps". It's no more a "hypocycloid" than the overall shape of the logo is a "conic section". --Carnildo 19:29, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I would say Carnildo has hit the nail on the head. The figure in question is a hypocycloid, but the term hypocycloid is insufficiently precise.  It describes an infinite number of possible constructions, only one of which happens to resemble the figures in the Steelers' logo.  Either astroid or hypocycloid of four cusps accurately and precisely describes the figures.
 * (Forgot to sign&mdash;the above comment is mine. TenOfAllTrades | Talk 16:13, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC))
 * Completely agree. – flamurai (t) 15:35, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * The most recent edit works for me. Charles 15:08, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, fellas. You're all wrong. The Steelers logo as it is currently constructed is based entirely on circular arcs. The astroid-like or hypocycloid-like shapes are constructed of overlapping arcs exactly one-half the radius of the inner gray border. You can prove this to yourself by copying the Wikipedia image (Image:PittsburghSteelers 100.png) to your computer drawing program (Paint Shop Pro or what-have-you), enlarging it 2x to 3x, then drawing a circle of appropriate size over the image to use as a gauge. It's a bit fuzzy due to the low resolution of the original, but without a doubt the curves are circular arcs. They didn't even follow the original 1930s US Steel "Steelmark" logo design accurately. Examples of the original logo can be found on the Web in black & white where it is clear that the shapes were originally made by something more nearly resembling two hyperbolas superimposed at 90&deg;. --QuicksilverT @ 07:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not familiar enough with editing to make the change myself, but within the article the shapes are referred to as "asteroids", not astroids, and the link goes to the celestial body rather than the shape. If someone could correct that I would be much obliged, because all I would do is screw it up. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.160.144.193 (talk • contribs)


 * Change made. Accurizer 19:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio section
Copyrighted material from http://secure2.steelers.com/tradition/teamhistory/ has been posted twice onto portions of this article by 68.35.79.2 (talk &middot; contributions) and has thus been reverted. If the author's permission is obtained later, the text can be restored. See Copyrights for more information. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:58, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Improvement drive
National Football League is currently a candidate on WP:IDRIVE. Vote for it if you are interested!--Fenice 20:39, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

The helmet
There's a BIG mistake in the helmet found in the infobox. It should be solid black, with no logo. Reason: The logo only appears on the right side of the helmet. The visible side is the left. Dale Arnett 03:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

That's a good catch. I think the best thing to do would just be to have the helmet pointing in the other direction. I actually did that and uploaded it, but when I looked at it, I noticed that the numbers were backward on my version, which was even worse in my opinion so I reversed it. The image was given by these folks: http://www.nationalchamps.net/Helmet_Project/ and in fairness to them, it does mention in their notes that the image is on the wrong side, but ehy wanted to be consistent with the rest of their helmets. The up-shot is that someone will have to do some photoshopping to fix the backwards number on the version I uploaded or create a new version. Alternatively we could just add a note to the image that it's on the other side. Charles (Kznf) 04:20, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was the one who uploaded all of those helmet images from the Helmet Project, because at the time that was the only source I found that had good quality images, including the new updated Arizona Cardinals helmet. I have since found another source and I am now considering replacing the Helmet Project ones with those. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:13, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.183.185.133 (talk &bull; contribs).
 * In addition, the image of the helmet links to the Philadelphia Eagles entry. I can't fix this, would someone else, please?
 * It seems to be your computer or web browser. It is working fine on my end. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 20:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The Jerseys
I removed the parenthetical remarks about home and away jerseys. The NFL does not have specefic home and away jerseys. Although the steelers, like most other teams wear dark colors at home, it is only tradition, not mandated. They wear black on the road when playing teams who choose white at home, like the redskins and cowboys.

^The Guy who jus said that above me is a fucking retard... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

There is no rule about home and away jerseys in the NFL Rules, but the NFL does have a strict Dress Code of the players on the field, how high the socks are allowed, hair used to be an issue, but the NFL has been lax on this. But at each NFL Stadium there is an official who makes sure the players are conforming to the Uniform rule. I was also unable to find anywhere on the internet the "NFL Uniform Standards that these Official Inspectors use as thier guidelines. I have also been unable to find on the internet the National Football League Constitution, Bylaws, and current Collective Bargaining Agreement.  T. Chapman  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Navychappy (talk • contribs) 04:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Throwbacks
There has been a rumor that the Steelers would change uniforms or at the very least go back to the block numbers on this page. It's been tagged as needing a citation for some time now. I am going to remove it. If someone has a cite, they can re-add the statement. WAVY 10 19:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Tradition
Should the Immaculate Reception be mentioned somewhere in this article?


 * It use to be on here along with much the lengthy detailed history of the team. But then this page became too long and thus the detailed history was moved to History of the Pittsburgh Steelers. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

In discussing the tradition of the Steelers, if you add the Immaculate Reception, then you will have to add others too. The Tradition article should be just about that, Tradition. Terry Chapman, navychappy@frontiernet.net

Protection?
Should this article be protected for a while? It seems all necessary updates have been made, and it may be in the best interest to prevent vandalism. Just a thought.MPD01605 03:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As an outsider, I would say protect this thing. There might be conspiratists out there angry at the refs.  BTW, Congrats Steelers and Steeler fans everywhere!! Dknights411 03:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Dknights. Article has already been vandalized.

I also think we should protect the Seahawks and Super Bowl articles, and possibly some others involved with the Super Bowl (incl. Bettis and Roethlisberger) only because if people can't edit this article as they wish, they will probably go to those others.MPD01605 03:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No, this article is currently listed on the main page. As per WP:PP, "Articles linked from the main page should NOT be protected (full or semi) except to clean up vandalism. Protection should be kept to 10-15 minutes in these cases." Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Protection now? This is getting a little ridiculous. Just my opinion though. MPD01605 03:47, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There is not enough vandalism over a period of an hour to warrant protection yet. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

The Article needs to be protected at this point to keep vandals from making a mockery of this site and the articles that people work hard to produce, only to see people vandalize them for their own personal agenda. T.Chapman —Preceding unsigned comment added by Navychappy (talk • contribs) 03:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Article removed from Good articles
This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because no refrences -- —This unsigned comment was added by Tarret (talk • contribs).

Notable moments
Looks like someone added a "Notable moments" section here. However, it suffers the same problem that National Football League lore and Super Bowl suffer: What is the criteria for choosing which notable games to include here without making it POV or original research? Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I uploaded the notable moments after taking a gander at the Cowboys page, as far as the POV, I am open to suggestions on it, however how could one possibly rank some of the greatest moments if one didnt have some sort of POV on the topic, at least enough of a POV to realize the heritage and pathos of the organization. I agree it is not something you want to encourage in an Encyclopedia but if you are going to list the notable moments I would think you would need someone that understood or lived the pathos of the topic, there is nothing notable about something you have zero pathos for, and yet to have the pathos immediately means you have a POV.  I think the best result we can hope for is to balance it out and talk about a few that might be better for the history page for the Steelers.


 * As far as the references I will add the pages to my edits right now but these are my 3 main sources (besides memory),

As well as SuperBowl.com for factchecking and http://www.jt-sw.com/football/ for date checking.
 * http://www.mcmillenandwife.com/index51_79.html
 * http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news_room/history/arts/4984.0.html
 * http://www.pittsburghsteelers.co.uk/steelers/browns/page3.htm

Thanks and interested in opinions on this! Hholt01 07:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The following notable moment listed on the wiki page seems to be incorrect:

"November 3, 1985, Cleveland Browns

Played in a driving rain storm the game was a slugfest. The long-time Steelers kicker Gary Anderson booted a 25 yard fieldgoal in a downpour with :09 on the game clock to win it 10-9 for Pittsburgh. It is of note that the best kicker in Steelers history had this as his SOLE last minute game deciding field goal of his long Pittsburgh career."

I recall that Anderson beat the Houston Oilers with a 50 yard field goal in overtime in a wildcard game in 1989 or 1990. Not sure how you definte "last minute game deciding," but I think pretty much any overtime winner should count as last minute. Also, even with a narrow definition of "last minute" that excludes the first 14 minutes of overtime, I still find it hard to believe that he only had one of those over his 12 or so years in Pittsburgh.


 * Agreed, this strikes me as pretty improbable. I *do* remember when Anderson was in contract negotiations with the Steelers him (or his agent) saying that Anderson had never missed a game deciding field goal in his career, though I don't have any reference for that either. Charles (Kznf) 18:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting point, I concur with the OT with the Oilers in late 89 early 90, I took that from the Mcmillenandwife site under the VHS stuff, I would be loathe to disagree with them since they have loads of experience with that but the Oilers game is curious, I think the "last minute" thing is as time expires the Steelers are down (not tied and not with another 14 minutes to make something happen). As far as his agent goes, agents are notorious for taking one isolated stat and forming a statement around it that appears as something it is not, (i.e. Bradshaw has never lost a game vs. Joe Montana . . . even though they only played against each other once).  If someone can find a stat I would be more then happy to see it changed, but I would invite you to check out the McMillen and wife site under VHS.  Hholt01 01:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I can guarantee you Three Rivers didn't "literally explode" after the Immaculate Reception; I saw it imploded years later. This writing is hardly encyclopedic. Geoffrey Spear 00:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree completely. This section reads as if it's being discussed by some buddies over beer.  In addition, it's a little lengthy.  I'm against inclusion of this section to begin with because of Zzyzx11's previous comments, but if you guys insist, maybe we can pare it down a little.  Maybe limit it to 5 notables? Then we can concentrate on improving the writing.  CPitt76 03:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I went through and touched up this section, trying to make it a bit easier to read and adding links, etc. I think it's a good section to have, but agree that it should be cut a bit.  I have only been a fan for twelve or so years, but I think there's too much on the Browns rivalry (nine out of nineteen games) and not enough between 1985 and 2006 (three out of nineteen). Martini76 17:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Re: Notable Moments. That November 20, 1977 game against the Dallas Cowboys was definitely played at Three Rivers Stadium.  I cite Abby Mendelson's book, "The Pittsburgh Steelers", which lists the dates, sites, and scores of every Steelers' game from 1933 to 1995 as one source.  I have also seen NFL Films' highlight of Franco Harris' 61 yd touchdown run from that game, and the absence of markings on the field clearly indicate that the game was played in Pittsburgh.  If it had been played at Texas Stadium, either that or the name, "Cowboys" would have marked the end zones. Aquarian6 20:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Not ONE game from 1985 to 1998 is defined as "memorable"? How about the Steelers beating the heavily favored Oilers in Week One of the 1992 season with help from a fake punt and a new blitzing role in Bill Cowher's first game? The 3-0 sweep of the Browns in the 1994(?) season that finished with a great playoff game where the Steelers used a play I had never seen before, the swinging gate? How about the 1995 AFC game with Aaron Bailey and the catch that wasn't?

The notable moments section is an editorial type addition - an does not belong here. Perhaps a reference to the Immaculate Reception is appropriate since it is often commonly acknowleged as one of the greatest plays in NFL history. The rest of these moments are only relevant to Steelers fans. Besides...don't you think that the other three superbowl victories are notable moments???

Requested move
You guys might be interested in a requested move I've recently proposed that's nearly finished: at Talk:Steelers. Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 20:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Lack of cheerleaders worth noting?
A notable item that seems to be missing from the article is that the Pittsburgh Steelers are one of the few football franchises without cheerleaders. It would be an interesting item to add to the "Traditions" section of the article, assuming someone can find a good reference to cite. Dugwiki 21:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. Added -- Knobunc 01:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I added info on the Steelerettes. I'm still looking for mascot info.  They had a mascot once, and then continued to use a stuffed mascot that looks like a young boy steel worker. --Write On 1983 00:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Mike Tomlin and other prospective coaches
The Steelers have not officially announced a head coach today, as per this message and the lack of news on it from their official website, "At this point and time, the Steelers have not concluded a contract agreement with a new head coach, nor do we expect to do so today. There will be no other announcements from this office today."  Darth griz 98 00:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The website now states that Tomlin will be introduced as the new head coach at the press conference today, but I find it odd that the edit summary the last time he was added to the page said "It's official" and then cited the 49ers blog on AOL sports, which in turn cited a rumor repeated on fox sports. So much for WP:RS. Geoffrey Spear 17:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I added this, it said on several websites he had accepted the offer to the Steelers, this was just the first site I could find to explicily stated that. The only thing they had to work out was the contract, but, I stress, he had officially accepted the position of head coach for the team. I'm sorry if it was not reliable enough alone, but this was on many other news sites. -- Will Mak  050389  03:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Simon Eccleston?
I'm deleting him from the coaching staff because I'm not sure he exists. There is no mention of him in the post-gazette.com archive or the Steelers' official site, and a google search for "Simon Eccleston" and "Steelers" turns up mostly wikis. Bongwarrior 09:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Move season records?
I'd like to move the season records to a new page, similar to the featured Chicago Bears seasons. I'd be happy to color-code it, etc. Comments? Kermitmorningstar 12:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a great change. Be bold! Charles (Kznf) 22:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Name change from Pirates to Steelers
The name was changed in the 1940 season, not 1941. Some citations for this (forgive me; I'm not familiar with Wiki formatting): Obiturary in Post-Gazette for man who chose the name, Professional Football Researchers Association. The best evidence I have seen for the 1940 date is published in The Steelers Reader, edited by Roberts and Welky. It contains several articles from Pittsburgh newspapers dated 1940 which call the team the Steelers, not the Pirates.

I don't know why the NFL has published information giving the 1941 date for the name change. It may be because that was the year that Art Rooney sold the Steelers to Alexis Thompson, starting off a sequence of events where a lot of franchises changed hands, but Rooney ultimately ended up once again back in Pittsburgh with a team named the Steelers before the 1941 season started. (The Professional Football Researchers Association article I posted a link to has more details on this.) But there seems to be ample evidence that the team was called the Steelers, not the Pirates, in the 1940 season.

My father was the announcer for the Steelers from. His notes state that Art Rooney sold the Pirates (as they were known up through the 1940 season) to Alexis Thompson in the winter of 1941 for $160,000. Thompson had no interest in keeping the franchise in Pittsburgh and wanted to move it to Boston. Art stipulated that the franchise not be moved. Thompson felt that if he did not promote ticket sales, and with Art out of the picture, the other team owners that share in the gate would agree to the move. Thompson renamed the team the 'Ironmen.' Bert Bell's Eagles were having similar financial problems. With the money he got from Thompson, Art invested in the Eagles. Together with Bell's share, Bell and Rooney had a majority interest. They then traded franchises with Thompson whose only reason to switch to Boston was to have an easy day trip from his home in NYC. All were happy except the players. Art wanted a new name for the team and a contest was announced. The name 'Steelers' was suggested by a fan (my father did not recall who the winner was). It was with a new franchise and a new name that the football team continued its losing ways in 1941.

Murtuc 19:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Murray Tucker

Unsourced
I added the unsourced tag as this article doesn't have inline references or cite it's sources well enough. See the Chicago Bears for a good example. '  Tayquan' hollaMy work 19:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC

Error
Read this, there's a problem in here. Notice what I've put it bold. It says: "both also attended Super Bowl XL.." but doesn't say who both are. Is it Snoop Dogg and Michael Keaton? Rush Limbaugh and Hank Williams, Jr? It doesn't say. I'd fix it but I don't know who "both" refers to.

Major celebrities from all ends of the industry, rapper Snoop Dogg, comedian Dennis Miller, rock singer Bret Michaels, actor Michael Keaton, political pundit Rush Limbaugh and country singer Hank Williams, Jr. are widely known to be avid Steelers fans. All have been seen in a number of music videos/appearances wearing Steeler hats and jackets. Both also attended Super Bowl XL in Detroit, Michigan in 2006. Batman actor and native of Pittsburgh, Keaton was seen on television before the 2005 AFC Championship Game speaking to Pittsburgh television personality Paul Steigerwald and carrying a Terrible Towel. --Wjmoore17 17:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Car-Pits/Carpets
I removed the references to these names. I cannot find a reference to these names. If anyone can provide one, please return it to the article. WildWildBil 14:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Joe Gilliam, Jr., almost the quarterback instead of Bradshaw
That’s the fascinating thing that I learned from William Rhoden’s THIRD AND A MILE: THE TRIALS AND TRIUMPH OF THE BLACK QUARTERBACK, Hyperion books, 2007, how amazingly close Joe Gilliam, Jr, came to being the starting quarterback during all the glory years of the 1970s. True, he had the blooper game at the end of the ’73 season, but he played well at the beginning of the ’74 season. And it wasn’t that Chuck Noll was prejudiced against African-American quarterbacks, although living in a time when prejudice is common, of both crude and subtle forms, you’re likely to at least partially believe some of it. (The important thing is to be honest with yourself, and to make an extra effort to give people a fair shot and provide them with the tools they need to succeed.)

Rhoden states that the biggest factor was that Noll was of the old-school, ball-control philosophy, and he generally took the approach that when you pass the ball, three things can happen, and two of them are bad. FriendlyRiverOtter 08:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * True, but I think Pittsburgh's last two Super Bowl titles of the dynasty days occured because Noll opened the passing game up to a larger degree in '78. But you're right, who knows what would have happened if Bradshaw hadn't emerged and we saw Gilliam at QB during that era. WAVY 10 16:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Superbowl XIII, Bradshaw later said that he had had a bigger game in the first half than almost any other entire game. And Swann and Stallworth both finished with big games.  I'm still wondering if the whole league was throwing more, maybe with the relaxation of blocking rules allowing offensive linemen to block (and hold) within "the plane" of their bodies, and maybe because of the influence of innovators such as Don Coryell.   FriendlyRiverOtter 23:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The tragedy of Joe Gilliam, Jr
He got into drugs. It’s really a disease of hopelessness as much as anything else. You have to have realistic hope for the future. And Joe did not any longer. And to top it off, he no longer felt like he was one of the guys. He felt outside the team. And you can’t just preach hope. People are pretty smart. Hope has to realistically be there, and available for the pretty near term future at that. Basically, Joe felt like he had had his one chance and he hadn’t made it.

And then the tragedy was that when Joe had turned things around and was living a constructive life again, he died a premature death. FriendlyRiverOtter 08:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The tragedy of Mike Webster
Arguably, one of the greatest centers in NFL history. And after his retirement, he suffered pretty scary neurological symptoms, probably from something along the lines of post-concussion syndrome. I think people tried to remain his friend, but he had eratic behavior and it was hard to be his friend. And at one point, Mike tried keeping a journal to figure out what was going on. .

Now, I don’t bring up Mike and Joe to be a downer. This is part of the real human story. To have a full, rich, mature story, we need to include these parts, too. Okay, both Mike and Joe have their own articles, but I don’t believe wiki has to be the epitomy of sparseness. There’s a narrative flow here. We can include some of the personalities. We can expand the famous games section. And more pictures would be nice, too! Thanks. FriendlyRiverOtter 08:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Pro football in Pittsburgh pre-1900
I hope you will bear with my longwindedness, as I am new at this Wiki stuff, but I would love for this article to keep getting better.

I understand what the following sentence is going for, but I think it would be best to remove it, because it's just not accurate, and I'm not sure if there's a concise way to make it accurate so that it still belongs here.

However the Steelers are the heirs to the first ever pro-football team, Pittsburgh being the city to host the world's first pro game in the 1890s, a franchise that fell victim to the strict state blue laws preventing any activity during the sabbath (NFL Sundays) up until 1933.

Here are the facts about what this sentence refers to, based on the source it cites, NFL chronology:

Competition between local athletic clubs in the Pittsburgh area led to the first documented cases of people being paid to play football (which is what makes a player a professional instead of an amateur).

The earliest documented case of a player being paid to play football took place in the Pittsburgh area in 1892 when the Allegheny Athletic Association paid William Heffelfinger $500 for playing in a game against the Pittsburgh Athletic Club.

In 1893, the Pittsburgh Athletic Club signed one of its players to the earliest known professional football contract.

In 1896, the Allegheny Athletic Association fielded a team completely made up of professional players.

These are all significant developments in the history of pro football, but it's hard to point to a moment on that timeline that constitutes "the world's first pro game." The transition from amateur to pro was gradual (and at first, secret) because the clubs in the area kept one-upping each other to bring in the best players in order to keep ahead of the other clubs. I also don't know that the word "franchise" really applies to these clubs, since that implies a league, which there wasn't yet.

I also haven't been able to find support for the statement that it was the blue laws that caused the Pittsburgh-area clubs to fade in prominence.

Probably most importantly, while this is important to football history and to Pittsburgh history, it's a stretch to say that the Steelers are an "heir" to these teams. It seems like the most that can be said is the history of professional football in the Pittsburgh area goes back to the 1890s.

But that seems too vague... and going into as much detail as I just did really belongs in some other article. Suggestions, anyone? 65.26.154.192 05:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

the article has refrences
I think that the article has enough inline references to remove the unsourced box on the page. I am going to remove the box in a few days if nobody tells me if theres not enough references here.--Team6and7 02:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There's not enough references here! More and more (and more) references are definitely needed to get this article back to Good Article status. Also, we should watch for WP:NPOV problems. It starts out well enough, but here's an example, the fourth paragraph under "Franchise history": The Pittsburgh Steelers' 1974 draft has gone down in NFL history as the best ever, considering no other team has ever drafted four future Hall of Famers in one year. The players drafted in the early 70's formed the base of one of the greatest dynasties in NFL history, making the playoffs eight seasons, and becoming the only team in NFL history to win four Super Bowls in six years, as well as the first to win more than two. Any time you say "first" or "best" you either need a source or you've broken NPOV. Really, every sentence in this section needs a source. Want more? How about this line: In 1992, Chuck Noll retired and was succeeded by Kansas City Chiefs defensive coordinator Bill Cowher, a native of the Pittsburgh suburb of Crafton. How hard can it be to find a source when Cowher took over, right? :) I'd recommend hard copy print sources, too; it lends some credence (I think) over strictly using web sources (especially if many of those web sources are from the Steelers or NFL themselves; they are probably biased).  Remember, Wikipedia isn't based on truth, it's based on verifiable truth. Best of luck with this. --Midnightdreary 12:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Noll's Draft Picks
The article describes the results of some of Noll's more stellar drafts, but still doesn't do him justice. I'm reasonably sure that the Steelers teams in their final two Super Bowls of the 1970s did not contain a single player who had ever played so much as a down for another team prior to playing for Pittsburgh. In fact, Preston Pearson (obtained from the Baltimore Colts) may have been the only non-drafted player on the first two Super Bowl teams. If someone cares to verify, I think it would make a great enhancement to the 1970s dynasty write-up, as I'm sure no other team could make such a claim. --NameThatWorks 23:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PIT 1960 Logo.gif
Image:PIT 1960 Logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 18:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PIT 1962 Logo.gif
Image:PIT 1962 Logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 18:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PIT 50 Seasons.gif
Image:PIT 50 Seasons.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 18:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PIT 60 Seasons.gif
Image:PIT 60 Seasons.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 18:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Steelers75.jpg
Image:Steelers75.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 06:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Notable moments section, and disputed statement
I question the statement regarding Gary Anderson's kick in the November 3, 1985 Cleveland game, "It is of note that the best kicker in Steelers history had this as his only last minute, game deciding field goal during his twelve years with Pittsburgh." He kicked one in overtime, in Houston, during the '89 playoffs if that counts. It seems possible that there would be more during his career, but that's the only one I can remember off the top of my head.

Also, does anyone think the notable moments section is a bit too long? And why is it called notable "moments" anyway, when it's a list of notable games? --Bongwarrior 03:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, isn't naming Gary the "best kicker in Steelers history" a little on the POV side. Certainly, the stats seem to suggest so; but others could argue for the kicker in the first three Super Bowls or the current kicker. WAVY 10 Fan 12:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is a bit POV. No problem here if someone wants to reword/remove that bit. I don't have too much of a problem with calling him the Steelers' best kicker though, because he scored loads of points (second-most in NFL history I believe), and was regarded as one of the "big three" of placekickers for most of his career, along with Nick Lowery and Morten Andersen. --Bongwarrior 20:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Chris Parks
An article on the website Slam Sports calls a wrestler Chris Parks a former player for the Steelers and there should probaly be more research done before we add it because there are no other hits for Chris Parks as an alumnis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.169.94 (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)