Talk:Pizzo (mafia)/date dispute

Factual dispute over timing of letters and/or assassination
"Published on the front page in August 1991, it was addressed to an anonymous "Dear Extortionist". It caused a sensation but, barely three weeks later, Libero was dead." Taken directly from the article in citation #11. - Shentino (talk) 23:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Read A Bullet For a Businessman (note 10). The BBC is wrong. - DonCalo (talk) 12:23, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Or it could just be that the BBC is right and BW is wrong...or, since we are both humans, one or even both of us may have misread and/or misinterpreted the sources.

I'm not entirely convinced that either of us is right and the other is wrong. Ultimately, if there is a genuine dispute of fact, then a longer discussion is warranted. I will research the two sources and post what they say here.

Assertions by http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7342106.stm

 * Grassi wrote an open letter to the Giornale
 * The letter was published August 1991
 * 3 weeks after the letter was published, he was shot

Excerpt from article
Refusing to accept the idea that the company he had created would enrich people who refused to work, Libero Grassi wrote an open letter to the Giornale di Sicilia, the local newspaper.

Published on the front page in August 1991, it was addressed to an anonymous "Dear Extortionist". It caused a sensation but, barely three weeks later, Libero was dead.

"He was going to open the factory again after the summer break," Mrs Grassi recounts. "He left the house at 0730 in the morning. They knew he was coming. They shot him five times from a car."

Assertions by http://www.businessweek.com/archives/1991/b323820.arc.htm

 * In mid-January, a Palmero daily paper published an open letter from Grassi
 * August 29, Grassi was shot

Excerpt from article
In mid-January, a Palermo daily published an open letter from Grassi denouncing the Mafia's attempts to milk Sigma for protection money. Then, Grassi did what few in Sicily ever do: He reported the names of his would-be extortionists to the police, a move that resulted in five arrests last March. By June, after appearing on nationwide TV, Grassi, 67, had become something of a national hero in Italy: a Sicilian businessman who stood up to the Mafia. "A hero is by definition someone who does something extraordinary," says Libero's old friend Gabriele Morello, who runs a local management institute. "The incredible thing is that he became a hero for doing something everyone should do."

Now, he is even more of a hero for many across Italy who want to put an end to the Mafia's stranglehold on such places as Palermo, a port of 750,000 that should be one of the fairest cities in Europe. In the already-sweltering early morning of Aug. 29, Libero Grassi was shot three times in the brain as he walked from his home to his Saab. No witnesses came forward: Omerta--silence--is rarely broken.

Concurrent assertions

 * Libero Grassi was shot in August

Conflicts

 * BBC says a letter was published in mid-august of 1991 by the Giornale di Sicilia, BW says a letter was published in mid-january of 1991 by a Palmero daily.


 * Were there two separate letters? Were there two different sicilian newspapers involved?  Were there letters published two separate times?  Did one of the sources goof up and get the facts wrong?  The BBC says a letter was published in january.  BW says a letter was published in august.  Either there were two separate publications (of either the same or different letters), or at least one of the sources is in error.


 * BBC says he was shot five times from a car, BW says he was shot three times in the brain.


 * How many shots were there? When was he shot?

If you know of any other sources that detail the timings of these events by all means I would appreciate having them posted here. I perceive a genuine dispute of fact, which is only aggravated by a potential contradiction between sources.

Shentino (talk) 19:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I am sorry, Shentino, but you messed up the sources. You put the facts in the BW article under BBC and vice versa. The BW article is closer to the dates these events happened, and as such is more reliable. Moreover, the Italian-language article Libero Grassi, martire civile in the Libero Grassi article confirms BW and gives the right sequence of events. - DonCalo (talk) 19:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I do appreciate you correcting me there. However, now that I think about it, why would the mafia wait 9 months to exact revenge?  That doesn't quite pass the smell test.  I'll take a look at the article, hopefully I can get a good translation.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shentino (talk • contribs) 19:54, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I checked Alison Jamieson's The Antimafia, a classic on the issue. The book confirms the dates and sequence of events as in the BW and La Sicilia article. That's three against one. Dispute ended. - DonCalo (talk) 20:10, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Please cite your third source. If it is a source indeed to outvote the BBC, then it is worthy of being a reference in its own right and should be added as a reference to the article. - Shentino (talk) 20:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You just removed that third source, I hope unintendedly. I have put it back. Moreover, La Sicilia is the major newspaper on Sicily. I have read it and it confirms the dates. - DonCalo (talk) 20:15, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think there was an edit conflict. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shentino (talk • contribs) 20:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Please do not unilaterally remove RFC tags. I have a genuine desire to know if anyone else has a third opinion and I think it was inappropriate of you to simply remove the rfc-tag itself without further discussion.  I will re-add it in a few minutes. Shentino (talk) 20:27, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * If you still do not believe me check this source and this one . That's five against one. I warn you, this comes very close to trolling. - DonCalo (talk) 20:32, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your sources, I'll check it out. I'm simply doing research and looking up as many sources as I can regarding this issue.  If indeed the BBC is flat out wrong here (which I'm not yet convinced about), then it needs to be removed as a source altogether.  The fact that it was even a source in the first place means that someone else considered it reliable enough at the time, so simply removing it is inappropriate unless it is clearly wrong.  I am assuming wp:good faith on the part of whoever added it as a source, and the BBC article in question indeed is relevant.  Whether it is accurate or not remains to be determined.


 * There's also of note that the assassination victim in this case was somewhat active. For example, he was allegedly in a discussion with the press of some sort in April.  There are also two different dates mentioned for the letter.  One possible explanation is that your sources and mine are talking about two separate letters.  However, the BBC specifically mentions a date, and unless the BBC would be brazen enough to just pull a date out of thin air, then there is more going on here than meets the eye. Shentino (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Um, the source you listed that is hosted at aupeace.org deals with south africa...are you sure you put the right URL there? -- scratch that, I found that I goofed after reading the article further. Shentino (talk) 21:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I moved the BBC source to where it is more appropriate. It deals mainly with the Addiopizzo movement, not Grassi. Regarding the aupeace.org source: In the future, before reacting, do not only read the first sentence. There is also a section dealing specifically with Palermo. This is your last warning, if you keep continue trolling, I'll report you to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. - DonCalo (talk) 21:04, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I added yet another source. It is an article in La Repubblica - in case you don't know, one of the most respected Italian daily newspapers - written the day after he was shot. You can use |Google translate to check it. That makes six against one, an I can go on and on. - DonCalo (talk) 22:04, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The more sources the merrier I say. However, I still have two sources that attest to "Dear Extortionist" being published in August, where-as that title specifically isn't mentioned with January IIRC.  My theory is that Degrassi published *two* different letters, one in january that leaked names, and one in mid-august titled "Dear Extortionist".  It would fit well with his political activism against the mafia, and as far as I can tell none of the sources contradicts such a theory.  If this is the case, then we are both correct.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shentino (talk • contribs) 23:09, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, good luck. Some advice, when you start searching use the proper name. He is called Grassi and not Degrassi. The "Dear Extortionist" letter was published on January 10, 1991, as you can see in the sources. The other so-called source you mention is a | a German site on holiday houses (see User talk:Shentino). If you want to waste your time, I won't stop you. Cheers. - DonCalo (talk) 23:24, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * my mistake, thanks for the correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shentino (talk • contribs) 00:27, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Source audit (assassination of Grassi)
Due to detection of a potential contradiction among the sources referring to Grassi's assassination, I am auditing the sources.

Facts asserted by http://www.aupeace.org/files/Wanis,%20DOS:INL%20study.pdf
(none yet listed)

Facts asserted by http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7342106.stm
(none yet listed)

Facts asserted by http://www.businessweek.com/archives/1991/b323820.arc.htm
(none yet listed)

==== Facts asserted by http://books.google.nl/books?id=NvDyPAvBjzAC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=%22libero+Grassi%22+january+august&source=bl&ots=l_YjzfZByk&sig=sYCfDtB7-q-gVapR_-yR7LNfXuk&hl=nl&ei=4u_QSqXBKdPn-QbdmpiFAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDAQ6AEwCTg8#v=onepage&q=grassi&f=false ====

(none yet listed)

Facts asserted by Jamieson, Alison (2000). The Antimafia: Italy’s fight against organized crime, London: Macmillan Press ISBN 0-333-80158-X.
(none yet listed)

Facts asserted by http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/1991/08/30/un-antieroe-onesto-scomodo.html Un antieroe onesto e scomodo
(none yet listed)

==== Facts asserted by http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&u=http%3A%2F%2Fricerca.repubblica.it%2Frepubblica%2Farchivio%2Frepubblica%2F1991%2F08%2F30%2Fun-antieroe-onesto-scomodo.html&sl=it&tl=en&history_state0 ====

Just as he had done the morning of Jan. 10. A complaint to the police station in the district of San Lorenzo, and at the same time an open letter to newspapers: "Men of the Mafia, save your money for bullets: there never will pay ... ".

Disputed facts
None. - DonCalo (talk) 00:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * After finally finding a source that was comprehensible enough for me to read (in english, and not in italian, and not garbled by google translator) I discovered the new york times, published about the "Dear Extortionist" letter, and giving a publication date BEFORE the BBC alleges that the letter was written. Shentino (talk) 01:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Facts supported by consensus
Libero Grassi, a businessman from Palermo, wrote an open letter on January 10, 1991, in the Giornale di Sicilia, the local newspaper. In the letter he denounced the Mafia's demands for protection money and announced his refusal to pay. Published on the front page, it was addressed to an anonymous "Dear Extortionist". It caused an uproar but, barely nine months later, on August 29, 1991, Grassi was shot dead by Salvatore Madonia of the Resuttana Mafia family in Palermo. - DonCalo (talk) 00:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)