Talk:Plant milk/Archive 1

Digestion
"making digestion of animal proteins especially casein found in dairy very difficult or even impossible see also the China Study"

People affected by PKU do not have digestion problems with animal proteins, but they are advised to avoid them as they are high in phenylalanines. They cannot metabolize the amino acid phenylalanine. I fail to see the link between 'the China study' and digestion of animal proteins being difficult or impossible.Kelly2357 (talk) 00:49, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you say why you keep removing the reference to animal protein, and the See alsos? You've been doing this in several other articles too. An explanation would be appreciated.  SlimVirgin  talk| contribs


 * as explained above, People with PKU do not have 'digestion problems' with animal proteins — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelly2357 (talk • contribs) 03:01, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that grain milk be merged into plant milk. The content in the grain milk article can easily be explained in the context of plant milk, and the plant milk article is of a reasonable size that the merging of grain milk will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Michipedian (talk) 14:52, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. The common term is plant milk. Sarah (talk) 01:42, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

The article doesn't actually explain what "plant milk" is.
Of course information about soy/almond/coconut milk should go in their respective articles, but this article should at the very least give a high-level overview of what plant "milks" are, their general preparation, common properties, and how the kinds available are different from each other. 77.164.107.1 (talk) 12:22, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Please proceed with adding content supported by WP:RS sources. --Zefr (talk) 14:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

So, what is it?
I read the article, but I'm unclear as to what Plant Milk actually IS. Plants do not give milk, so it has to come from plant matter in some regard, yet this remains undefined. There are examples of variations of Plant Milk but no definition. Are there any sources which can be provided about their manufacture, or method of extraction? 2601:196:4800:8852:9DF0:5D30:6696:F336 (talk) 02:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Definition of “plant milk”
This article does not define its topic. There must be a definition for plant milk since, for instance, coconut milk and coconut water are two different things. Jwfelder (talk) 00:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

History (earliest mention?)
It would be awesome to get some earliest mentions or other evidence to show how far back the consumption of plant milks goes. The article currently says "centuries" but it could be more than that. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions re where to look? I've given it a good googling etc but haven't found anything awesome, except what I've added just now.--Philologia (talk) 16:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

List of plantmilk companies
We need a List of plantmilk companies as a Wikipedia article, perhaps with a chart or table of those companies and the plantmilk 'spaces' in which they operate and compete. This would be comparable to lists of wind energy and solar energy companies (charted) and List of vegetarian festivals - organized by location. MaynardClark (talk) 16:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Other terms for plantmilks
I have been hearing the term 'altmilk' and 'altmilks' for plantmilks. Are there other such alternate terms? MaynardClark (talk) 16:16, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Respect for primary sources
Please do not revert, I've used the primary source. See: WP:SCIRS: "Respect primary sources. A primary source, such as a report of a pivotal experiment cited as evidence for a hypothesis, may be a valuable component of an article. A good article may appropriately cite primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. Use of primary sources should always conform to the No original research policy." --Zeamays (talk) 00:27, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The Aldi source you added for oat milk nutrients is not primary research published under editorial scrutiny, but is questionable as a commercial-promotional source, WP:PROMO, and is not peer-reviewed or accepted universally like the USDA National Nutrient Database is. I don't see nutrient contents shown for oat milk on the Aldi website The source needs to be verified, WP:V. Please provide a link so other editors can have confidence in the values, WP:ONUS is for you to help verify. --Zefr (talk) 01:10, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Listings on US Food Labels are required by law, not promotional material, and it is a Federal crime to commit fraud on such a label. Peer review is not legally required anyway for a source to be authoritative. There is no requirement that an internet link be given for a Wikipedia reference. I coped the values here from the legal label.  However, the label is quite similar to the values on oat milk products from other manufacturers. The USDA database you cite uses the same numbers published on product labels for proprietary product, and all oat milk products in commerce are propriety. See for example, this one, which is less detailed: https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/45214542?fgcd=&manu=&format=&count=&max=25&offset=&sort=default&order=asc&qlookup=oat+beverage&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing= Since different manufacturers' products will vary, I don't think it is fair to give exact values for any of these plant milks, so I would be willing to edited ALL the plant milk numbers to round them off, and could emphasize they vary.  Would that satisfy you?  --Zeamays (talk) 02:53, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Given that the other 3 columns and milk nutrient contents are from USDA data, it leaves a question about the reliability of the Aldi measurements, but perhaps that is all we have to use. The one USDA example you give for oat milk is actually a sample commercial product with a UPC code. Rounding the values throughout the table is appropriate. Also, the unit amount should be "per 100 g (ml)" which is the standard scientific format for nutrition tables on Wikipedia. --Zefr (talk) 04:16, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * You can see the 'USDA' values are all from commercial (industry) provided data, not government-generated data if you look at the source documents: 1) source document for soy milk, 2) source document for almond milk. Only the cow's milk column is from USDA's own test results. --Zeamays (talk) 23:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

On topic: Analogous uses of the word 'milk'
I am reverting deletion of information I had added about other examples of products that are not milk from the mammaries of animals, yet are traditionally described as "milks". This is relevant because of the discussion that follows of European governmental efforts to restrict the use of the word milk (even when qualified) to mammary gland-derived products. --Zeamays (talk) 00:03, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Need of rewrite
The lede section and the history section are biased in that they are written from the dairy industry's perspective, using dairy industry sources. Soy BEVERAGES (not merely soy cremes) have been used for thousands of years in many cultures. This entire article should be rewritten to reflect a deeper, more historical perspective on anthropology. MaynardClark (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * While the article is written from within an American context, several sources within and beyond this article point to the feasibility of an article with a broader perspective on plantmilks:


 * "The first known mention of soymilk in Latin America was in Ecuador during the 1940s, when posters proclaiming the value of soymilk and other soyfoods were printed by the government." Shurtleff W and Aoyagi A. History of Soymilk and Dairy-like Soymilk Products - Page 4: LATIN AMERICA AND AFRICA.
 * "Brazil. The first known appearance of soymilk in Brazil was in 1967, when Dr. Barretto of Laticinos Mococa introduced Solein, a mixture of 30% soymilk and 70% cow's milk." Ibid
 * "Brazil’s soy beverages market was worth USD 315.14 million in 2017 and is estimated to reach a value of USD 420 million by 2023, at a CAGR of 5.49%." Brazil Soy Beverages Market - Growth, Trends and Forecasts (2018 - 2023)
 * China Milk Soy Milk, China Milk Soy Milk Manufacturers etc. Alibaba.com search page for soymilks, soy powders, etc.
 * Alibaba.com search page for "milk soy milk" - includes soy powders, plantmilk processing, etc.
 * Vitasoy, a key player in American soymilk markets, is a Chinese-owned company WREPORTEDLY using Australian soybeans. http://soy.com.au
 * Pureharvest, was as of 1982 of the first companies in Australia to import and distribute soy milk and rice cakes in the country. - https://pureharvest.com.au/about/
 * Soy and Almond Milk Production in Australia - Market Research Report. Soy and Almond Milk Production industry trends (2014-2019): Average industry growth 2014–2019: 8.7% - Market Size in Australia: $228m; Number of Businesses: 23; Industry Employment: 245
 * Bungard M. Australians go nuts for non-dairy 'milks' Sydney Morning Herald. August 25, 2019 - "Many in the dairy industry have fought the rise of dairy-free products in the past few years, calling for restrictions on the use of the word 'milk'."
 * Shurtleff W. and Aoyagi A. History of Soy in Oceania (Australia, New Zealand, and the Pacific Ocean Nations): A Chapter from the Unpublished Manuscript, History of Soybeans and Soyfoods, 1100 B.C. to the 1980s. - "Starting in the late 1970s the soyfoods/soycrafters movement and the macrobiotic movement had begun to do pioneering work in introducing soyfoods such as tofu to Australia, and to the small but growing number of young people interested in natural foods and meatless diets. In August 1978 Marcea Newman and Yoshiko Wright started Australia's first known tofu shop, The Soybean Factory in Surry Hills, NSW."
 * M'Gee D. Soybeans in the Australian and Global Market 2011.
 * Clover soy products display page. - "To be a leading branded foods and beverages group in South Africa and selected African countries. And to provide accessible nutrition to all consumers."
 * Canadian Soybean Council. www.soybeancouncil.ca
 * World Initiative for Soy in Human Health. www.wishh.org
 * European Soy Manufacturers Association. www.ensa-eu.org
 * Soy 20/20. www.soy2020.ca
 * Soyfoods Association of North America. www.soyfoods.org
 * Reeves M. MOOving On: Consumers Are Switching to Soy, Almond and Pea Protein Milks. IbisWorld. August 07 2019 - "...revenue for the Soy and Almond Milk Production industry, which also includes other alternative milk varieties such as coconut and rice milk, is expected to grow at an annualised 8.3% over the five years through 2019-20."
 * Soyfoods Canada. www.soyfoodscanada.com
 * Alpro is a European company based in Ghent, Belgium that markets organic and non-organic, non-genetically modified, plant-based products, such as foods and drinks made from soy, almonds, hazelnuts, cashew, rice, oats or coconut.   Alpro employs over 1200 employees in Europe and has three production facilities in Belgium, France and the United Kingdom. Alpro markets its products in Europe and beyond with the majority of its business in Europe.
 * MilkyWay, a soya milk company in Cape Town, South Africa - ALSO makes and markets soymilks (in synergistic marketing with shared supply chain)
 * Pureharvest was established in 1979 in Prahran, Victoria...In 1982 we were one of the first companies in Australia to import and distribute soy milk and rice cakes in the country, and we were largely responsible for creating markets for these products.
 * UK coverage in The Guardian of Oatly and rise of alternative plantmilks beyond soy

'mylk'
I love this article plant milk. One person added 'mylk' as a synonym or alternate name for plantmilk, and the conversation around using or interlacing the discussion with the nonce 'mylk' could continue (though I do not favor our doing that). One editor (Jessica Blakiston, Digital Marketing Manager at Oats Overnight) added the term 'mylk' in a series of synonyms for plantmilk, then another editor quickly removed the insertion of 'mylk' from that series. However, the term MYLK is already a Wikipedia article and in light of MYLK, some confusion could emerge. We have or confront and address a few issues here: (a) debates on whether or not plant-based foods can be called by what they replace (milks as plantmilks, soymilk, almondmilk, faux meats, meatless meats, etc.). Satisfactory treatment (or even 'optimal treatment') of the topic could be developed, but what IF, as RethinkX advocates, plant-based substitutes for animal-derived meats and milks undermine those earlier markets and transform their supply chains with plant-based industrialized improvements? Then, industry-based debates on 'right to use' monikers like milk and meat for plants will be yet but a phase in a history of transformative replacements of meat and milk with plants. MaynardClark (talk) 21:20, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Taxation
It would be interesting to add an article on taxation of plant-based milk products. In Germany e.g. we have VAT added to dairy milk of 7% while the VAT for plant milk is 19% (only dairy milk is considered a "basic food"). How is this ruled in other, especially non-European countries? MauriceKA (talk) 16:28, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Do the research with WP:RS sources and write a paragraph. --Zefr (talk) 16:31, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Social sources of Plantmilk demands and plantmilk supplies/suppliers
I would like to see a historical OR international sociological treatment of the rise of plantmilks and the (various types of) challenges to plantmilks. MaynardClark (talk) 03:21, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

World Plant Milk Day - August 22
I would like to add (or see added) a (small) section on World Plant Milk Day (August 22), since 2019. Slogans are #TheFutureIsDairyFree and "Take the 7-day dairy-free challenge."

Celebrities include Olivia Fox Cabane, the organiser of the Alternative Protein Summit and Founder & CEO of The Global Alternative Food Awards (GAFAs), and developer of The Protein Landscape.

Sponsors seem to have featured Oatly, Califia Farms, and Milkadamia in 2020 (but not Planet Oat, Chobani Oatmilk, or other plantmilks).MaynardClark (talk) 20:58, 21 August 2021 (UTC)


 * This is fringe information, WP:UNDUE for weight, and is more news than encyclopedic content, WP:NOTNEWS. Zefr (talk) 20:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I have noted this as 'in culture'. the profusion of commercially-developed plantmilks has not been adequately noted, nor the historical significance of significant 'equity' financial investments in commercial investments weighed and noted. Further, the development of graphics - New Protein Landscape and The Plant-Based Milk Map v. 1.2 - deserve note in their comprehensiveness. MaynardClark (talk) 20:59, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

The map isn't encyclopedic for the general user, WP:NOTDIC. Adding a section on "commerce" or improving "packaging and market" would be appropriate, if WP:RS sources are used. Zefr (talk) 21:10, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * So be it. The event, World Plant Milk Day, was begun in 2017.