Talk:Plate armour

Citations?
Proper Citations? Having done a google search and come up with this, I discovered that Reference.com has a section that is word-for-word the first paragraph of this article. Should this perhaps be corrected and Cited properly?
 * There seem to be a number of websites that actually mirror the content created on wikipedia (experts.about.com, for instance). While this is somewhat disturbing, as articles that might be treated as historically accurate and NPOV on a site other than wikipedia might be seen as far from accurate or very POV on wikipedia. However, I don't think this text was stolen from another article. Also, please sign with your signature. -- Xiliquiern 15:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Needs more references, anyone know what books would be best to research from? Weights are important, if Possible Piece for piece. Nothing illustrates the armors mobility than the average weights of every suit. Justinian1979 14:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

cranes?

 * knights in jousting armour could be heavy enough and fat!!!! like pigs....and severely restricted in motion to require a kind of gallows to lift them. 

this seems in direct contradiction to the preceding statement. references? dab (T) 14:45, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * This is just a myth. Even a knight in jousting armour - which could weigh more than 90lbs - was able to mount his horse without pulleys, perhaps with the help of a squire. --Dy-Lac 08:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Sheesh. Didn't stop anon from inserting it right after where I say it is a myth... dab (T) 13:13, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Do we have any sources for this explanation of it being a myth? Not that I doubt it (always sounded suss to me, the whole winch thing) but I'd like to see where the information came from. --Maelin 14:37, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I would change the reference to Kelly from villian to outlaw far more accurate and less debatable


 * Actually, if I remember correctly, the myth from knights having armors so heavy that they needed winches to mount their horses came from "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur´s Court" by Mark Twain

Replying to the second comment: Plate armor actually wieghed 60 lbs., and knights in training literally did backflips to make themselves comfortable with the added wieght. (which I cracked up when I saw that bizzare feat). Furthermore, to back you up, articulated plate mail wasn't emcumbering, and provided freedom of movement far beyond the common belief. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.171.146.24 (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

half sword
The italian schools also taught half sword, depending on how you group the manuals. Solotuner, which is a swedish copy of Talhoffer, contains halbschwert as well. Should we include this information when talking about aiming for the gaps in armor? Perhaps it's own article or section? What thinks dab? Sethwoodworth 10:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Pictorial representation and deeper description
The article could use more indepth description of the differences between Gothic and Milanese armour. Is there a pictorial representation of the Italianate form that could be added? Finally, I can find nothing on Wikipedia about Maximilian armour, that which was developed in Germany during Maximilian's reign. Can anyone with such knowledge or resources add this? Srnec 05:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Imperial Japanese musketeers
The article mentions "Imperial Japanese" musketeers in the early 19th century. That seems to be self-contradictory: The Empire of Japan is said to have begun in 1871. I'm not sure what we should link to instead - Edo period? -- Huon 18:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Weight of plate armor
uon In this article, it states that a full set of armor can weigh only 45 pounds, if it's well made. I would like to know more what the average weight is, instead of the lightest. If anyone knows anything about it, that would be an addition that at least I would appreciate.


 * 45 is a good average number for early mid and late midieval period Sethwoodworth 19:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I will have to disagree. It might be a better representation of the late medieval period, with the use of highly specialized and very efficient suits (Gothic, Maximilian). During the early medieval period (of plate armour use), however, I think that the weight was significantly great, up to 30 or 40 pounds more because people were wearing partial (or in some cases, nearly full) plate segments over a complete set of chainmail. Needless to say, this practice was quickly dropped as the defensive potential of plate armour was realized and armours mostly of plate with chain in vulnerable areas began to appear. -- Xiliquiern 15:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There wasn't a large period where armor was worn over complete sets of mail. Breastplates at least, partial armors were worn for 50+ years.  It isn't certain if the Black Prince style full waisted breastplate was worn over mail or not.  But it's reasonable to assume it was worn double for at least some time.  But on the other hand the aketon was a defense well used by itself, it's not that hard to figure out how to attach tassets and partial mail to the base coat.  No archeological evidence either way.  Sethwoodworth 20:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Swim?
Some sources for the comment on swiming in full armor would be great. Even "just" 45 pounds is pretty heavy. I don't doubt it's possible, I just want more details. -- Djof 20:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Answers.com provides this:
 * "The weight was so well spread over the body that a fit man could run, or jump into his saddle. Modern re-enactment activity has proven it is even possible to swim in armour."
 * I'll see what I can find tomorrow from more historical sources. Xiliquiern 01:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That page I linked to, I just noticed, simply provides the Wikipedia article, so it is not a source. It appears that swimming in armour (oyogijutsu) was practiced by the Japanese, though swimming in articulated plate would be different from swimming in the Japanese armours. I haven't been able to find any reputable websites that provide any sort of historical backing for the claim, and none of the books I've looked over have made any mention of swimming in full plate. Xiliquiern 18:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I am a practitioneer of Medieval re-enactment and I have swum in wearing armour. I have practised, though, competitive swimming on Finnish national level in my youth, so I had distinctive advantage, but yes, it is possible. 15.203.169.124 06:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, with any organized military, the soldiers are going to be in pretty decent shape. I think it's fair to say that they could swim if you could. Gamer 2k4 (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't find the source on it any longer (grr) but there was a Swedish(?) Olympic swimmer, 1920's-ish, who put this to the test. Yes, possible, but also extremely difficult. Think he was wearing chain mail.

Theblindsage (talk) 07:19, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I found sources on swimming with armor
Full plate doesn't seems very likely: https://vimeo.com/13634653

Japanese 30 lbs armor seems to be possible: https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/swim-samurai-33-lbs-medival-armor-article-1.1178426 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcT5J7yg9k

Mail shirt also probably possible:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwd2ZEav2vE

Obviously, very exhausting.

Norfindel (talk) 00:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

There is a website with a lot of information about japanese traditional swimming, including samurai armor swimming. It has videos showing how it is done today: https://pop-japan.com/culture/swimming-the-way-of-the-samurai/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.154.230.28 (talk) 21:36, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Proposed Heavy Edit
Goals of this edit would be to increase the information available on this rather broad topic. I would like to see the chronology and development of plate armour an apparent feature of this article, as it is almost paramount to understanding the development of tactics and weapons throughout history. I would also like to see a more culturally broad representation of plate armour, including references to the Middle Eastern and Eastern adoptation of plate (in some cases). Here follows my proposed additions/edits:
 * Western (European Armour)
 * Classical Plate Armour
 * use of bronze plate by Greeks and Romans
 * greaves, helmets, ocassionally corselets
 * Age of Mail (10th-13th Century)
 * lessened use of plate, greater use of mail
 * pointed open-faced helm with nasal → barrel (pot) helms → pointed closed-faced helm
 * Transition Period (Late 13th - Early 15th Century)
 * basis of mail, padded, scale armour being reinforced later with plate
 * brigandine of plates, knee cops, ailettes/pauldrons, greaves, gauntlet, besagews, etc added piece by piece
 * Gothic and Milanese Period (15th - 16th Century)
 * completed harnisse is refined and tweaked
 * plate thickness and composition different for sword and bridle, increased size of shoulder/elbow cops → more articulated plates, long pointed solerets, heaume → basinet → sallet & armet, fluting began at end of century
 * Maximilian Period (Early to Mid 16th Century)
 * heavily fluted harnisse
 * more 'globose' in appearance, blunted sabatons,
 * Modified Armours
 * Parade and Decorative Armours - increased weight, decreased defensive capability (due to firing, creasing, etching, etc)
 * Three-Quarter & One-Half Suits - firearms cause need to lose protection below knee, eventually lost leg and arm plates altogether for weight and mobility, armets → open faced helmets
 * Speciality Armours
 * Pikemans Armour
 * Jousting Harnisse

Less recorded pictures (excepting japanese), harder to extrapolate dates of use, more difficult to determine influences
 * Eastern (Oriental) Armour
 * Turkish Armour
 * Mostly mail, with large sewn plates integrated later c. 15th - 16th Century
 * Ceremonial/Decorative addition of silver work, gilding, engraving
 * Helmets of plate, short sleeved mail coats with banded plate, later cuisses and greaves
 * Indian Armour
 * Similar to Turkish, incorporated plated strapped over mail
 * 17th century use of european style cuirasse, 18th century almost totally plate sewn with chain
 * Japanese Armour
 * early riveted plate (lots of little plated riveted to make one cuirasse)
 * complex system of laminate, mail, plate and mail, woven thread, scales


 * Composition
 * Discuss metal properties and technique of use, reason for creasing, etc


 * Modern Plate Armour
 * Information is already there, perhaps discuss the more recent innovations and use of sewn ceramic plates (Iraq)

Please let me know if any of you are opposed to this edit, would like to help me, or would like to be notified if/when it is "done". Xiliquiern 17:59, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The edit looks a tad linear in its understand of armour history and a bit too fond of periodization. Any article on the second half of the 15th century would have to mention the difference between 'milanese' and 'gothic' harness rather than grouping them all under 'gothic,' and the fact that rather than progressing linearly as your scheme suggests european helms coexisted for long periods, for instance the armet was invented around the same time as the sallet, and was simply less popular for many years. Also brigandine was very popular well beyond the 'transitional' periods end, into the 16th century. --Wilhelm Ritter 15:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree totally. I simply tried to present a very rough overview of the vast amount of information. The difference between (and regional popularity of) milanese and gothic armour would certainly be addressed, as well as the development of the armet simultaneously with the sallet (here, I was trying to show popularity of use throughout Europe, though regional popularity could easily be addressed as well). Since the concept of brigandine did not change greatly after the 'transitional' periods (as far as I know), I meant to include a statement noting its prevalence into the 16th century. When I write this, I think a focus on simultaneous creation/development of multiple armour systems in different regions should definitely be an important aspect of the article and should have been reflected in my outline. I would certainly like to have your input during the creation of the article - knowledgeable editors in this area seem limited. If you have another way of potentially breaking up the 'periods' of armour development for the article, I would like to see it as well. -- Xiliquiern 18:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, to use the Gothic/Milanese example I'd say that it would be important to emphasize the other styles of armour that coexisted with them but don't surivive in full suits--ie Western European armour of Flemish or French or English fashion like that you see on English effigies, and not just on the two stylest that have the most sruviving complete harnesses. I'll be a compromise when describing the differences between encyclopedic readability and scope and amount of information. Also, throw in a word about anime armour (ie breastplates made of lames, not solid, like hussar armour) in the mid 16th century, and about munition armour from the late 15th century on, but other than that it sounds good. Wilhelm Ritter 19:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

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Dancing?
I remember reading that knights could even dance while wearing full plate armor. Although, I'm not sure if this is accurate, but it might well be as knights were not hindered by the armor while running, jumping, and walking. If I remember correctly, the book I read stated that a nobleman was famous for being able to dance in full plate armor. I'm not sure if this was true for all knights, but it might. Do you think we need to put this in the article?SCGhosthunter1 15:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * you'll need to find the reference for where you read it, but if you do, why not. dab (𒁳) 15:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Dancing in armour is no big deal. Done in the Society for Creative Anacronism regularly.15.203.169.126 07:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Interwiki to russian article
What I should do with interwiki if ru:латы (full plate armour) and ru:Пластинчатый доспех (plate armour) are two different articles ? And ru:Пластинчатый доспех classifies any armourwhich has plates, including scale armour and brigandine (a member of russian wikipedia)

Parthia
Didn't the Parthians invent it? Brutannica 06:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Almost certainly not. The panoply of ancient Greek hoplites seems to predate Parthia. --Eyrian 06:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You may be thinking of some variety of lamellar armour. Stephen Aquila (talk) 00:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Links
I'm reading up on plate and thought it would be kind if I shared where I was learning about it. http://www.ceu.hu/medstud/manual/SRM/armor.htm http://web.mit.edu/21h.416/www/militarytechnology/armor.html http://www.oakeshott.org/metal.html http://www.samuraisword4u.com/samurai-armor/the-samurai-armor --70.57.87.47 (talk) 07:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Merger
I found the article Medieval plate mail on Special:Newpages, and it seemed more appropriate as a section of another article. I know next to nothing on the subject myself and am not sure if plated mail would be a better article to merge it into. --Ginkgo100talk 04:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Medieval plate mail article is incorrectly named (plate mail is a misnomer), provides no new information, and it's references are very poor(a poorly executed literature review and a website for an RPG). It should be deleted not merged. Mercutio.Wilder 07:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Kevlar (History)?
I do not see kevlar vests as used by modern military personnel to be 'plate armour.' In particular it seems to be closer to a modern version of a brigandine, coat of plates, or covered lamellar armour and may not belong in a discussion of plate armour.Mad2Physicist (talk) 07:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, the statement that ballistic inserts' role is to prevent blunt force trauma is incorrect. While there certainly going to be all kinds of trauma including blunt force if you catch a .308 with only the ballistic fiber for armor, what you are probably going to die from is the penetrating bullet puncturing various organs. IOTV vest will only catch up to 9mm and it fails beyond that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.25.29.6 (talk) 14:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Article scope
While it is interesting that tanko denotes ancient Japanese armour made from iron plates, I do believe the term "plate armour" primarily denotes the armour used in 14th to 17th century Europe. Even the lorica segmentata as a remote predecessor is of dubious relevance.

It would be better to write a dedicated article about Japanese armour, including tanko, and link that from here. Also the armour article is in desolate shape, and would be the correct place to present a global overview of this history of armour. --dab (𒁳) 09:13, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "I do believe the term "plate armour" primarily denotes the armour used in 14th to 17th century Europe." Thats your personal opinion, but if that were the case the article should be titled armour used in 14th to 17th century Europe or Plate armour of Europe  or European plate armour  Just because you have no knowledge or interest in plate armours from other cultures does notmean that readers of wiki articles should be deprived of accurate information on the subject. Even though the Japanese were primary users of lamellar armour the article on lamellar armour is open to lamellar armour of all cultures, to have an exclusive article on Japanese lamellar armour there would need to be an article titled Japanese lamellar armour

Before you talk about the shape of any other article you should take a good look at the plate armour article, whole sections have absolutely NO references, maybe you should do some research and help fix the plate armour article before you take on a subject which you say you have no knowledge ofSamuraiantiqueworld (talk) 14:15, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

What is "plate armour" who used it and how did it get here

 * The name of the article is "Plate armour", not European plate armour, there were many cultures that made and used plate armour, the term "plate armour" does not belong to any one country or culture. Since people who come to wikipedia expect accurate information on a subject its important to fully expand the article to include the origins of plate armour, who used plate armour, and when it was used, as well as what is and is not plate armour etc.

The Japanese were early manufacturers of armour consisting of iron plates and many centuries later the Japanese took European designs in plate armour and started to manufacture and use plate armour of their own after many centuries of using lamellar armour, this is part of the history of plate armour and can not be minimized just to satisfy editors who's only interest is European plate armour.

I would suggest starting an article titled European plate armours etc in order to satisfy editors who want an European plate armour only article.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 14:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * There are too many parallels between European and Eastern plate armour development to warrant wholly separate articles. The current layout works well IMO, although we could maybe do with a little (no more than a sentence or two) on Japanese armour being readded to the lead section. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 09:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Chris, thanks for your help on this article, I was having some resistance by one editor who insisted that this article was primarily about European plate armour, I felt that due to the title of the article all plate armour from any culture should be included so that any interested reader could get a more comprehensive knowledge about the subject.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 18:06, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

wow. This is a question of article title. Yes, this is the article about "European plate armour during the Late Middle Ages and the Early Modern period". "Plate armour" is just the WP:UCN term for that. Japanese armour is usually called Japanese armour, that's why the article on Japanese armour is over there.

If you insist, we can rename this article to European plate armour during the Late Middle Ages and the Early Modern period, which is undoubtedly a major topic in its own right. The problem is simply that Wikipedia policy prescribes that the most commonly used English term should be the article title. I do not have time to explain such basics to people who choose not to Get It. Of course inasmuch as there are parallels to Japan, they should be mentioned, just as parallels to European armour should be mentioned at Japanese armour. For the very marginal evidence that the term is also used for certain Japanese types of armour, there is always WP:DISAMBIG.

There is, of course, no "Renaissance" or "Early Modern period" in Japanese history, hence the insistence to insert content about "Renaissance Japan" is at the very least, to be as charitable as possible, well-meaning article degradation. --dab (𒁳) 15:19, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just start an article that is exclusively about European plate armour if you insist on having an article thats exclusively about European plate armours. These is much more than "marginal" evidence that the term "plate armour" is used for Japanese armour.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 04:31, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Rifled firearms? I don't think so
The article states, "It was only the development of powerful rifled firearms which made all but the finest and heaviest armour obsolete." This is not true at all. Rifled firearms were not used until the mid Nineteenth century. Non rifled firearms were still powerful enough to break through most armour and it is that which brought there downfall. Any good source about military history or technology (and even other Wikipedia articles) can attest to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.141.137.18 (talk) 02:51, 5 December 2011 Why has this not been changed yet? (UTC)

Critique
The wikipedia page I chose to critique is on the subject of plate armor. The article gives a description of plate armor, its history, its uses, and its effect on other technologies. I am focusing on the first part of the article up to the part on jousting armor since the remaining sections focus mainly on modern day body armor. The article is well written and organized effectively, but there are some things that could use improvement.

All of the sources seem to be complete and credible. Two of the nine sources covered in the section are from the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s website. The other sources include a couple of books and three websites. Two websites are complete with bibliographies but one website called Themiddleages.net does not list its sources, even though the information does seem to be consistent with what I have learned about the subject.

There are numerous illustrations that show plated armor. However, I would have preferred to see separate illustrations of specific plated armor with descriptions. For example, illustrations could be added to show a typical plated helmet, shield, and breast plate.

There does not seem to be any frivolous information in the article. All of the information is relevant to the subject and would help any reader who was interested in the subject.

This wikipedia article differs from an encyclopedia entry because it is more specific. A typical encyclopedia entry would have grouped plated armor under a general armor category. Also, the article discusses other technologies that the plated armor affected such as weapon development.

The only improvements I would make would be to add some illustrations with descriptions as mentioned before. The section on Late Middle Ages could also be expanded to show more of the development of the armor from the 13th century. Finally, the one questionable source could be replaced with a more reliable one. In conclusion, the article is well written and provides the basic information needed to understand the history and uses of plated armor. Hist406-13tmalone (talk) 21:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)